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The Amanpour Hour
Interview With Former Secretary Of State And Former Climate Envoy John Kerry; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador To Ukraine Bridget Brink; YouTube Star Ms. Rachel Draws Controversy Over Gaza Pleas. Aired 11:25a-12p ET
Aired May 24, 2025 - 11:25 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.
Here's where we're headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: As President Trump sets a new course at home and abroad, fixing the climate crisis is officially off the table. I speak with former secretary of State and climate champion John Kerry.
JOHN KERRY, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE AND FORMER U.S. SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR CLIMATE: While we have a different president, the science hasn't changed.
AMANPOUR: And --
BRIDGET BRINK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Peace at any cost is not peace at all. It's -- it's appeasement.
AMANPOUR: Veteran diplomat Bridget Brink tells me why she resigned in protest as Trump's ambassador to Ukraine.
Then --
RACHEL ACCURSO, "MS. Rachel", YOUTUBE STAR: Let's go back to sleep, Rahaf. We're so tired.
AMANPOUR: How the beloved children's entertainer "Ms. Rachel" draws attention to the suffering of Gaza's children and suffers a backlash because of it.
Also ahead, explicit, deepfakes and A.I. girlfriends -- author and journalist Laura Bates on the new age of sexism haunting society and infiltrating schools.
Plus, from my archive, an overwhelming vote for peace in Northern Ireland, 27 years since a referendum on the Good Friday agreement.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the agreement, there is, in a sense no winners or losers. Everybody gets a bit of what they want.
AMANPOUR: We look back at the vital ingredients that ended a bitter sectarian war.
And finally, my conversation with tennis titan Rafael Nadal as the City of Lights honors his legendary career at this year's French Open.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
From the very start of his administration, President Trump made a clear break with traditional American foreign policy -- warming ties with Russia despite little progress on peace since Putin invaded Ukraine, unsettling longtime allies and slashing foreign aid.
In Congress, anger at this dramatic shift finally spilled out into the open, and Democrats lambasted Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
Here's a scolding rebuke by Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): I have to tell you directly and personally that I regret voting for you for Secretary of State.
You and I served together in Congress for 15 years. We didn't always agree, but I believe we shared some common values, a belief in defending democracy and human rights abroad, and honoring the Constitution at home.
That's why I voted to confirm you. I believed you would stand up for those principles. You haven't. You've done the opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But perhaps no policy has felt the pendulum swing as much as climate. In just a few months, the current administration has yanked the U.S. back out of the Paris Climate Accords, gutted climate research, and is pushing to expand fossil fuel projects, including a coal revival.
John Kerry was President Biden's special climate envoy and he was secretary of State under President Obama. He spoke to me about all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
KERRY: Thank you, Christiane. Great to be with you.
AMANPOUR: So, I led in, I stated all those facts. You know, the Office of the Special Envoy, which you founded has been shut down.
Which of these actions do you think, all the ones that, you know, has happened under this administration poses the most significant long- term problem to the work on climate change?
[11:34:41] KERRY: Well, I think, Christiane, that it's really unfortunate that the president who wants to compete with China and who constantly talks about China beating us in the marketplace, has actually ceded the largest market in the world to China.
The fact is that China today is racing ahead in responding to the climate crisis. And they command the entire marketplace with respect to the supply chain on solar panels, wind turbines, et cetera.
So really, you know, if you -- I mean, we want the United States to be leading on these things, not -- and also, while we have a different president, the science hasn't changed. The science that drove the world to say we have to reduce emissions, we have to transition away from fossil fuel, is not the -- you know, at all what is being pursued by this administration.
AMANPOUR: Let me play a little bit of a recent speech by President Trump's Energy Secretary on this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WRIGHT, U.S. ENERGY SECRETARY: The Trump administration will end the Biden administration's irrational, quasi-religious policies on climate change that imposed endless sacrifices on our citizens.
The Trump administration will treat climate change for what it is, a global, physical phenomenon that is a side effect of building the modern world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So Secretary Kerry, you can see that is their policy, that's their ideology. They don't really believe that climate change is anything out of the ordinary.
Can I just ask you to compare what you see happening under Trump 2.0 on this issue with what happened under Trump 1.0?
KERRY: Well Christiane, first of all, let me just say nothing the Biden administration did was based on ideology or on politics. It was completely drawn from the science.
This is about mathematics, it's about physics, chemistry, some biology, but mostly, you know, physics. So, this is driven by science, number one.
Number two, it's not impoverishing the United States or any of our citizens. In fact, nothing is actually required by international law or by these international meetings. There's no, you know, punishment for not doing something.
It's really voluntary. Every nation writes its own plan, but you know, what's going to impoverish Americans is if our economy continues to sort of shatter as a result of some of the things that are happening in the administration. You know, Mark Twain famously said that a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on. And it's very, very difficult to counter the amounts of money that have been spent in order to get people to believe what you just heard from the Secretary of Energy, that somehow people are being impoverished.
In fact, solar and wind are cheaper than fossil fuel in the provision of energy. What we need to do is actually have an abundance of energy.
AMANPOUR: Let me just interrupt you for a minute, because there's that existential crisis that some are worried the world is just surrendering to right now under the current politics and political leadership. But then, there's all these potential wars and actual wars.
Let me ask you about something you know very well about because you negotiated the Iran nuclear deal under President Obama, the JCPOA.
As you know, President Trump is trying to do it again. What kind of a deal do you think Trump could get now?
KERRY: Well, I hope he can get the best deal possible. I hope he gets a deal. I'm glad that the president is pursuing that. I think it's really vital.
I think it was questionable -- more than questionable as to why the president just pulled out of the agreement, which had taken a nuclear weapon off of the table and given us an opportunity to begin to build a different kind of relationship and structure for the entire region.
But the fact is that it is important that the president negotiate this. And I hope he can get a deal that meets the standards that we had in the last agreement.
AMANPOUR: Except it appears goalposts keep shifting. At first, he said, an absolute red line was a nuclear weapon. Everybody can agree to that. And then, they said all enrichment has to stop.
The Iranians have said that is a red line. You had -- you encountered that as well? How likely are they, the U.S. to achieve their maximalist goals?
KERRY: You know, it really depends on what the entire -- the entire program is going to be that you put on the table. I don't want to get in the middle of a negotiation at this point in time.
In fact, I think this negotiation and Ukraine should be conducted a little more quietly, a little more, you know, behind the scenes.
[11:39:47]
KERRY: Because I think it -- so far, most people would judge that already publicly, big concessions have been made to President Putin without him making any.
And the fact is that to suggest already that Crimea is automatically going to be given away creates a problem for Ukraine.
And for the -- you know, those of us who believe that you can get an agreement, but it's going to have to be done in a way that really protects Europe and the region for a long time.
Secondly, you won't get an agreement unless you change President Putin's calculation. His calculation right now is that he's doing quite well and he doesn't need to make an agreement. And I think that's one of the -- that's the largest hurdle that lies in front of everybody.
AMANPOUR: Senator Kerry, thank you very much indeed.
KERRY: Good to be with you. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up next, why America's ambassador to Ukraine resigned in protest over the change in Trump's policy on the war that Russia started.
Also ahead, CNN speaks to "Ms. Rachel", the YouTube tot sensation, who has come under fire for showing some humanity towards the children of Gaza. That's when we come back.
[11:41:01]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
We now turn to Ukraine, where peace for the war-torn nation seems a distant dream as Russian drones continue to pound the country and the latest call between President Trump and the Russian President Vladimir Putin this week left Ukraine in a more vulnerable position.
Trump neglected to call for a ceasefire or announce further U.S. sanctions, saying this to reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Big egos involved. I tell you, big egos involved. But I think somethings going to happen. And if it doesn't, I'd just back away and they're going to have to keep going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: For one veteran American diplomat, the current order of business is not acceptable. Last month, Ambassador Bridget Brink resigned from her post in protest.
She joined me from Washington to explain why and how defending Ukraine remains in America's best interest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Ambassador Bridget Brink, welcome to the program.
BRINK: Thanks so much, Christiane, for having me on.
AMANPOUR: The last time we spoke was when I was in Kyiv, you were in Kyiv as ambassador. And now, you have resigned. Tell me why.
BRINK: Well, first I'll start with a little context. So for three years I served in Ukraine while Russia launched thousands of missiles and drones that killed men, women, and children in their homes, in apartments, on playgrounds, in churches that tried to take the light, heat, and power out for a country of 40 million people over three Ukrainian winters. And that committed atrocities and war crimes like we haven't seen since World War II.
I fully agree that the war needs to end, but the policy since the beginning of the administration has been to put pressure on Ukraine as the victim rather than on Russia as the aggressor.
And peace at any cost is not peace at all. It's -- it's appeasement. And we all know from history that appeasing aggressors only leads to more war.
AMANPOUR: It must have taken though more than just that to have a career foreign service diplomat as you are, who's served five different administrations of all different -- of both political parties to throw -- to throw in the towel.
BRINK: Well, I have been very proud to serve five presidents and for 28 years as a career diplomat.
It was not a quick hasty decision, but one that I took over the course of the first three months of the administration.
And it started -- the first sign was the Oval Office meeting, which was horrifying. But there were other signs as well, including the withdrawal of security assistance and intelligence assistance, which was put back on. But that was a temporary withdrawal that I did disagree with.
In addition to that, there was a change in language in discussion about the war. Instead of talking about Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine, it was the Russia-Ukraine war.
I believe that the only way to accomplish the goals of the administration of the president to end the war is to call out the aggressor and put pressure on the aggressor, Russia, to come to the table and to end the war that he started.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever, before you resigned, try to have any conversation with your bosses? I assume -- I mean, in this case, Secretary of State Rubio. He's the ultimate boss in the foreign policy strand.
BRINK: I mean, of course. Part of our job is not just to execute foreign policy, but it's to provide advice to the leadership. So, that is part of our internal operations and discussion, and this is a core part of what the career of Foreign Service does.
AMANPOUR: So, in your view, the Turkey talks, did they achieve anything?
BRINK: I think that Putin is stringing us along, and I think we've seen that over a number of different meetings and events. This is the modus operandi of Russia to say one thing and to do another.
And I think this is why it's really important to call a spade a spade and to put more pressure on Russia together with partners and allies in Europe.
[11:49:52]
AMANPOUR: Ambassador, we've watched President Trump sort of vacillate in his public demeanor towards Putin.
There was the Oval Office tone, then there was the Vatican tone when he looked to be much more listening to Zelenskyy. Then there was the Vladimir Stop tone, when Putin had sent in a whole barrage of missiles and drones that killed a load of civilians.
What do you -- and now, he says, nothing will change until I meet Putin. What do you think is going to happen next?
BRINK: Well, I think to achieve the goal of ending the war, what we need to do as an administration, and my advice would be to President Trump, is to put more sanctions on immediately.
The Europeans have just increased sanctions, especially on areas of the energy sector. It's the oil and the sale of oil that is a big part of fueling the war machine.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you this because I've been speaking to a Russian official who told me like they do publicly, that they do believe that they're winning.
So, what do you think and what do you know in terms of your latest intelligence readings before you resigned, I suppose, on where the Russians are headed and can they win this war?
BRINK: I think the Russians, of course, are going to tell us that they think they're winning. I do think Putin is struggling, the economy is struggling, and that's why we should double down on efforts to make it harder to wage this war.
Putin won't stop this aggression. And if he thinks, and if he does -- if he is successful in changing borders by force and being legitimized for doing that, he will continue. I'm sure of that based on my decades of experience in the region.
And Putin's goal is to disrupt this relationship and to divide Europe, and to divide Europe from us.
AMANPOUR: You mentioned Putin trying to divide Europe from the USA. He's doing a pretty good job that leads -- that's a very, very difficult relationship right now.
I want to ask you finally, do you think there is anybody in Trump's inner circle or in his cabinet that has Ukraine's back?
BRINK: I mean, I think -- well, all of us, I can speak only for myself as a former official, is that what we care about is American interests. We serve American interests.
In this case, I think they are the same as Ukraine's interest to remain a free country, to deter Russia, to send the right signal to China. That's what's in our interest. That's what we are focused on.
I do believe that ending the war is also in America's interest. But how it ends is important to us. It's important to us on a political level and on an economic level, and on a moral principled level. It's important to who we are as Americans.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador Bridget Brink, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
BRINK: Thank you, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: In a moment, CNN speaks with YouTube star Ms. Rachel, who's come under fire for speaking out in defense of Gaza's starving and injured children. That's when we come back.
[11:52:53]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
With international pressure mounting on Israel this week in America, the conflict took a violent turn when two Israeli embassy staffers were killed by a lone shooter outside the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington.
The suspect, identified as a 30-year-old from Chicago, was heard yelling "Free Palestine".
Meanwhile, after 19 months of war and 11 weeks total siege on all humanitarian aid, Israel allowed a minimal amount of food into the besieged Gaza strip. The United Nations called the first trickle of aid a drop in the ocean, as many thousands of men, women and children continue to suffer from acute malnutrition.
Take a listen to what the U.N. humanitarian chief Tom Fletcher, told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM FLETCHER, UNITED NATIONS RELIEF CHIEF: It's utterly dire and this is one of the problems, you know. We're getting in this baby powder and it needs to be mixed with fresh water and there's no fresh water. So we're having to get in water in those first convoys as well.
In the next phase now -- much, much more medicine. A lot of that is what's on the border right now.
I went to those hospitals, bombed out, bombed out maternity wards, barely functioning, doctors, medics who'd been assassinated, taken out by drones and military strikes.
You know, they are in a terrible condition and we've got to get them back open. And that's our next priority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Meanwhile, Israel says it's expanding its military campaign, vowing to take control of the entire enclave. And Britain, France and Canada have threatened to take concrete action if Israel doesn't stop its renewed offensive.
Now, in another controversy over the conflict, the YouTube toddler sensation Ms. Rachel has weighed in on behalf of Gaza's suffering children. With over 15 million followers, she's received serious hate for speaking out and trying to help the most innocent victims of the war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACCURSO: Let's go back to sleep, Rahaf. We're so tired.
MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is Ms. Rachel, hanging out with her new friend, Rahaf.
Ms. Rachel is like YouTube's Mr. Rogers, with millions of subscribers and billions of views.
ACCURSO: Can you nod yes?
DUERSON: And Rahaf is a three-year-old double amputee from Gaza. She lost her legs when her home was bombed and months later was medically- evacuated to the U.S.
RAHAF'S MOTHER (through translated text): We are heading to the U.S. to continue our treatment.
DUERSON: Ms. Rachel saw a video of the little girl now living with her mom and a host family in Missouri watching her show.
ACCURSO: She's just so precious. Hopping like a bunny. And, you know, she was kind of hopping on the couch.
DUERSON: And arranged to have Rahaf come visit her in New York. Rahaf is part of a new group of fans Ms. Rachel discovered last year, refugees of the war in Gaza.
ACCURSO: I was tagged in a video of a toddler and a brother and a sister watching in a tent. And I saw the toddler swaying and the little girl smile. And I was just so touched that I could bring a little bit of joy to them during unimaginable circumstances.
DUERSON: Did you know that you had this audience?
ACCURSO: No. I was completely surprised.
Someone wrote, "This made me realize that these kids are like mine and like ours." And I know so many parents that enjoy our show feel the same way. They say, as a mom, I just think about, I see my babies.
All children are worthy --
DUERSON: She's posted more and more about Gaza as the war has gone on, highlighting the humanitarian crisis and launching a fundraiser for kids. She's gotten supportive comments, but there's also been backlash.
ACCURSO: The bullying is so bad. It's so bad. But I can handle this.
DUERSON: You seemed very emotional about the bullying that you said you'd gotten for speaking out.
ACCURSO: The idea that caring for one group of children means that you don't care for another group of children is false. And it's so hurtful because I care so deeply for all kids.
DUERSON: In April, an advocacy group called Stop Anti-Semitism called her a mouthpiece for Hamas.
DUERSON: A group accused you of essentially acting as a foreign agent and asked, you know, for the attorney general to investigate you for spreading propaganda.
ACCURSO: Obviously, that's not true. I care deeply about all children -- Israeli, Palestinian, Jewish, Muslim, Christian. I wouldn't be Ms. Rachel if I didn't speak up for them and speak up for all of them.
This is a prayer for all the children, please stop hurting them.
DUERSON: Ms. Rachel has also used her platform to express grief over the deaths of Israeli children. And said she's met with the family of hostages still in captivity.
Here in the U.S., Rahaf was fit for prosthetics and has learned how to walk again. A group called Palestine Children's Relief Fund helped her and her mom get out. But her dad and two brothers are still in Gaza.
[11:59:53]
RAHAF'S MOTHER (through translated text): Rahaf is very lucky, of course, because Rahaf was able to leave but there are other children still in Gaza. I wish those kids could get out and get treatment like Rahaf. And many children are still under the rubble. I see how it affects my children. How they just talk to Rahaf and they see her holding bread and eating. They ask about it. Of course this hurts me so much. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything is possible for Rahaf. She has healthy food and she has clean water and she has wonderful medical care. This girl is thriving. We have to do this for all kids because they all deserve that.
DUERSON (voice-over): Meena Duerson, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
[12:00:42]
