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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With Former U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel; Interview With Rep. Mark Pocan (D-WI); West Bank Ruin Up For UNESCO Status; Interview With "Cool Machine" Author Colson Whitehead; Archive: Interview With Former Commander-in-Chief Of The Ukrainian Armed Forces Oleksandr Syrskyi; Long-Lost Pan Am Flight Found After 74 Years At Sea. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired July 25, 2026 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:35]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Shame on you and others who call this a quagmire and a failure. And then you want to turn around and say you support the war fighter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I use the word failure to their leaders. You, sir, are the failure.

GOLODRYGA: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gets a grilling from the Senate, but there's no word on how the war with Iran will end.

Former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel tells me he's stunned by the lack of transparency.

Then, as the U.S. blockade chokes Cuba, U.S. Congressman Mark Pocan tells me about dire straits facing the Cuban people and what a recent report signals about American intentions for Havana.

REP. MARK POCAN (D-WI): I think this is Marco Rubio's personal South Florida pet project. And he wants us to go into Cuba in a way that I don't think the American people support.

And --

ZAID AZHARI, SEBASTIA HISTORIAN: This is everything for us. I cannot imagine Sebastia without the archeological site. It's like your children. You cannot just leave one of them.

GOLODRYGA: How a 3,000-year-old ruin has become the latest flashpoint between Israelis and Palestinians. We have a special report.

Also on the program, the Pulitzer prize-winning author, Colson Whitehead, joins me as he concludes his epic Harlem trilogy. What it says about the gritty, decadent New York of the 1980s and now.

COLSON WHITEHEAD, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR: It will chew you up, but also lift you up and that -- that churn, that energy of the city is what I love about it. And if I can depict it, you know, I'm doing my job.

GOLODRYGA: Then Ukraine's military leadership gets a shakeup amid nationwide protests. From the archives, Christiane's conversation with the commander, who became known as "The Butcher", Oleksandr Syrskyi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane.

$37.5 billion and counting -- that's the high price footed by American taxpayers for the war with Iran. And this week, U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth made clear that if Congress allows him, that's just the start, requesting an additional $67 more without suggesting when or how the war could end. Something met with fury from Senate Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JON OSSOFF (D-GA): Mr. Secretary, you stated four months ago that Iran's military had been rendered, quote, "combat ineffective for years to come". Has Iran's military been, for the last four months, combat ineffective?

HEGSETH: It's been set back not just years, but likely decades.

OSSOFF: You stated, we have quote --

(CROSSTALKING)

HEGSETH: -- at the level stated before --

(CROSSTALKING)

OSSOFF: -- you stated we have quote --

HEGSETH: It doesn't mean it doesn't have capabilities.

OSSOFF: Mr. Secretary, you stated we had, quote, "achieved every single objective".

SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): You, sir, are the failure, not the men and women who are on that front line.

You -- you don't have a strategy. You don't have a long-term plan to actually win this war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Of course, the price paid for the war is not just in dollars, but in lives. Thousands of Iranians have been killed, as well as more than a dozen American service members. Now, President Trump is threatening further actions in areas like

Pickax Mountain, where Israel believes Tehran has stored part of its enriched uranium stockpile and advanced enrichment centrifuges.

I spoke about the waging of this war with former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, who railed against what he called a lack of transparency from the current administration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Secretary Hagel, thanks so much for joining the program.

Let's start. In terms of where Iran views things diplomatically, they had an option, an opportunity really that many thought was the best opportunity they could have, and perhaps a bad option that the United States laid out on the table for itself, and that was the 60-day MOU. Sanctions would be lifted, the strait would be open, the war would end.

Iran, despite having all of those opportunities, chose to once again break that MOU and attack ships going through the Strait. So, what does that tell you about where they are right now in terms of a diplomatic off-ramp?

CHUCK HAGEL, FORMER U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, what we have produced in Iran today over the last more than four months is a regime much more difficult to deal with, much more militant, less inclined to deal with us or to resolve these issues.

[11:04:50]

HAGEL: And that's the reality and the consequence of the action that we started with not thinking through this. Actions have consequences. Inactions have consequences.

And I don't know what's going on strategically inside, but when the president said he's going to continue to attack them and go to war on the basis of retribution for them killing our soldiers, that's not the way to conduct a war. You've got to go deeper than that.

And I don't know if they're doing that. I don't know what they're doing diplomatically. That's the only way it's going to get resolved, or at least the beginning of resolution here is through that process.

You've got two real estate people who are in charge of the diplomatic efforts. This not a real estate deal. This not a deal.

And you can't conduct anything like this on a retribution basis. If you hit us, we'll hit you more. And this goes on and on and on. Somebody's got to start thinking a lot deeper and wider than what we're seeing now.

GOLODRYGA: The U.S. focus is on keeping the Strait of Hormuz open, and that's where a number and the majority of these targets have been in attacking Iranian infrastructure. But we have seen attacks on critical civilian infrastructure as well.

U.S. strikes at Iranian water plants. Iran retaliated with strikes that damaged desalinization and power facilities in Kuwait and Bahrain as well.

Does targeting basic water desalinization facilities, civilian facilities or at least facilities that function perhaps in both ways, civilian and militarily, does that get the United States to a place where it has leverage here?

HAGEL: No. And if for no other reason than what we're doing here -- it's the same thing that Israel has been doing in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon -- is you're creating generations of new terrorists. You're creating generations of new anti-Americans.

Look at what's happening with the Houthis in Yemen, threatening to close down that waterway coming out of the Red Sea.

I mean, this is what happens if you're not smart about this in where do you want to go and what do you want to accomplish?

Five months ago, the Strait of Hormuz was open and we've made it worse. And so, we've got to start thinking beyond just that.

I mean, we hear a new explanation every day of what this war was about. Well, it was supposedly first about Iranians not having nuclear capability and capacity.

I mean, the Obama administration answered this thing in 2015, had a very smart program, plan that everybody was abiding by. And in fact, all the nations of the world, including Russia and China signed on to it. The United Nations signed on to it.

That's what we need to get back to resolve this. But I don't know if this president or this administration has capacity to do that. So, this going to go on.

GOLODRYGA: Can Congress do more at this point in terms of the questions you're asking right now? Where is this war going? Where is this money going?

HAGEL: Well, of course they can. They control the funding, the power of the purse. That's one of the constitutional requirements that the Congress has. And only Congress can appropriate money. That's number one.

Also, where's the Congress been on any kind of a vote? Are we in favor of this? Are we not in favor? What's going on? What do we know? What do we don't know?

I mean, where the Congress has been has been -- I mean, truly unbelievable to me. And it's let down the American public.

Why did we start it? Where are we going? And the longer -- as I've said, the longer you go with this, the deeper you get into this. And the Congress, again, is the one -- the one body that can stop it. GOLODRYGA: Do they have the backbone to do that?

HAGEL: They have not had the backbone. They've got a constitutional responsibility. But even more basic than that, the Congress has responsibility to the people of this country who fund the taxes, who fund those wars and who have jurisdiction literally over decisions made because we are a republic.

When you send a senator or congressman to Washington, you send them because they're going to protect your interests. What are we doing? Maybe it's a just war. Maybe everything we're doing is just. What -- how do we know that?

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

HAGEL: There's been no transparency. Nobody from the administration. We hear the president every day. But everything he said is just basically not true. And then he changes his approach the next day.

[11:09:49]

HAGEL: So, the Congress has got a very, very significant responsibility here. But -- and they've not fulfilled it.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Maybe this a just war. But you're right, transparency is the name of the game here in terms of what Congress is owed, the American taxpayers and most importantly, those families of the 17 service members that have lost their lives since this war began.

HAGEL: That's exactly right. The people who fight the wars -- and I was in one of those wars in Vietnam in 1968, no transparency there either.

And we lost almost 57,000 men and women in that war because no one had the courage on the political front in the Congress and the presidency to step forward and be honest about it.

GOLODRYGA: Secretary Hagel, we really appreciate the time today. Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Coming up, is Cuba the next country to face the might of the U.S. military? Congressman Mark Pocan thinks a new State Department report is a blueprint for invasion. He tells me why.

And later in the program, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author, Colson Whitehead, wraps up his Harlem trilogy with a tribute to the decadent and dangerous New York of the 1980s.

[11:11:03]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to the program. For six months, Cuba has been under a U.S.-imposed oil blockade,

causing havoc and suffering that is only getting worse. Its national grid has collapsed multiple times, with Cubans racing to charge their phones or pump water whenever the power comes on, even if it's in the middle of the night.

And the Trump administration isn't letting up the pressure. This month, it leveled further sanctions on the country, this time targeting its tourism industry.

In recent weeks, several Democratic lawmakers made the journey to the island and have denounced the suffering they saw. Among them was Congressman Mark Pocan. We spoke just as the State Department released a new report on Cuba.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome to the program. Thanks for joining us.

The State Department today calls Cuba the, quote, "capital of 21st century communism, still exporting instability across the region".

You walked the streets of the island. What did you see?

POCAN: Yes. So, I saw that report. I have a copy of it with me by the State Department. It just came out yesterday. To call it fantastical would be probably the best definition.

Look, I saw what the U.S. blockade is doing. And it's not just an oil blockade, it's a blockade of food, goods, medicine. Even in war, we allow medicines and medical devices to travel.

It's a complete blockade. And it's really an involuntary global blockade, because any country that does will face sanctions from the United States.

So, what we're doing is, for 65-plus years, we've had some sort of blockade, almost continuous, on the Cuban people. But right now, we've intensified it so that it's really a boot on the neck of the Cuban people.

You know, their electric grid has failed multiple times for long periods of time. They can't get any medicine or parts for medical devices for their hospitals. They don't have food. They can't even have kids in school right now because of the power situation.

And it's just something that we claim we're looking out for the Cuban people against the Cuban government. And instead, we're actually hurting the Cuban people. And that's the real problem.

GOLODRYGA: What was the impetus for the trip? Have you been before? Did you decide to go following this blockade? And is this something that your constituents have prioritized?

POCAN: Yes, we have a sister city -- Madison, Wisconsin with Camaguey, Cuba. So, it's something that people back home do care about. And I've been there 30 years ago. I've been there three and a half years ago, and then just again last week.

And I can tell you the difference, as I saw it. You know, with no fuel, not only did they go 42 hours without power, we had an hour and a half of power, and then it went back down again.

But that means you also don't have garbage trucks to pick up garbage. It's literally piling up in the streets.

We don't have -- you know, they have one of the best medical systems, and they export doctors throughout Central and South America, and they can't do that. In fact, they have to -- when the power goes out, surgeons use their phones' lights to finish a surgery.

This is all because of our blockade. And it just doesn't make any sense. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

Here we are doing this, when in reality, under Barack Obama, we opened up relations. Americans went to Cuba to vacation. They were thriving. And quite honestly, they love America. And guess what, there was no ill towards our country by doing so.

But this report by the State Department, I think it's setting up a military action. We're already in a quagmire in Iran, but I think this is Marco Rubio's personal South Florida pet project, and he wants us to go into Cuba in a way that I don't think the American people support.

GOLODRYGA: And every administration that has imposed these sanctions say that they are sanctioning the regime, not the people.

From what you've seen, from what you've heard, does that distinction hold?

POCAN: No. I mean, again, it's fantastical. That's why if you, you know, if want a good read, you can't sleep, read the State Department report,

it's pretty ridiculous. It's kind of like the excuse the dog ate my homework. It's about as credible, right? The dog doesn't eat everyone's homework.

[11:19:45]

POCAN: And Cuba doesn't cause everything in the U.S. They literally are trying to blame Cuba for Black Lives Matter, for ICE protests, you name it.

This a small country that's very impoverished, that can barely do anything right now, given the blockade. And yet somehow, they're still the mastermind.

To me, that smells of a rat, right? This doesn't pass the smell test.

I think this is really being set up to do something. What we saw in Venezuela was partially, directly related to Cuba. And, you know, I just think that the American government, unfortunately, is lying to the American people about Cuba.

So, not many visuals come out of Cuba, as you well know. So, I think part of what we're trying to do when we go to a delegation like this, come back, speak the truth, and just make sure that we don't wind up in another potentially disastrous military intervention like we're right now in the middle of in Iran.

GOLODRYGA: So many locked away in prisons there, not because the power is out, but because the regime doesn't allow for dissent. There are continued concerns over that very issue. Prominent dissident, Luis Manuel Otero Alcantara, has just arrived in the United States after years in prison, and here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUIS MANUEL OTERO ALCANTARA, CUBAN DISSIDENT ARTIST (through translator): For me, Cuba's future is the result of the work of many people over a long period of time. The fact that the U.S. government is supporting us right now is good, but it also remains in the hands of Cubans who have to rebuild and build everything that's needed. Cuba's future depends on us, the Cuban people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Is Washington doing enough for dissidents like this man was and that are currently being jailed in Cuba?

POCAN: Yes. So, they have released a lot of the prisoners. They say they're going to release some more as part of the conversations that we had because it is of concern and should be.

But, of course, we know there are scores of countries that we also have concerns with on this front, but we don't blockade them as a nation. We don't stop medicine from coming in. We don't make it so that their CT scanners and their MRI machines don't work because they can't get parts from the United States.

So, I think whatever we're doing is we're handling the blockade as more than a hammer to the Cuban people. The way we support the Cuban people is allow the access of trade. If we believe in our system of government, which I do, then allow the free flow like we did under Barack Obama.

And you'll see not only the U.S. be able to take advantage of a neighbor 90 miles off our shore by vacationing and enjoying aspects of the country, you're going to see the country thrive and improve the relations.

But, you know, nothing happened bad to the United States during that period because so much of this is old Cold War arguments. In fact, about two-thirds of this report is about the 60s and 70s, and all of a sudden, they jump to today and say Cuba did it.

It's so -- it's probably the dumbest report I've read in my 14 years of being here. And whoever wrote it should be embarrassed.

GOLODRYGA: Well, keep us posted, Congressman, on your conversations there. We appreciate your time.

POCAN: Absolutely.

GOLODRYGA: We appreciate the effort.

POCAN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Still to come, a fight over land and history. Why this ancient ruin has become a flashpoint in the territory dispute between Israelis and Palestinians.

Jeremy Diamond has a report from the West Bank after the break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: On this West Bank hilltop, a battle over the past will shape the future, and archeology is the weapon of choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:23:03]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back.

In Israel, an agenda of expansion into Gaza and the West Bank seems to be gathering apace. Ministers Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, leading thousands of activists to the Gaza border, demanding to reestablish settlements in the Strip.

Many calling it a political stunt to win votes in the country's looming general election.

Meantime, the Israeli government approving some $766 million to establish new Jewish settlements in the Occupied West Bank.

Now, the latest flashpoint in the land dispute between Israelis and Palestinians is a 3000-year-old ruin as CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: On this West Bank hilltop, a battle over the past will shape the future. And archaeology is the weapon of choice.

So, this is the line right here?

AZHARI: Yes, exactly. The first line of these columns, it's in Area C. But it's the Area C started.

DIAMOND: And so, what does that mean for Palestinians in this area?

AZHARI: It's mean that we are losing our heart by losing this area and not having access to our agricultural fields and our archaeological sites.

DIAMOND: Sebastia is an archaeological treasure, home to thousands of years of Roman, Byzantine, and Ottoman history. It is now enmeshed in the fabric and economy of the Palestinian town of the same name, but risks being cut off from it.

AZHARI: If we looked at the examples we had already, maybe they will build a wall. Who knows?

DIAMOND: It is also home to ruins from the ancient kingdom of Israel.

Archaeologists say, these ruins date back to the ninth century B.C., part of the capital city of the ancient kingdom of Israel.

And now, the current Israeli government wants to use these ruins as a justification for seizing hundreds of acres of land on an archaeological site that includes ruins from many other periods in history.

The goal, an Israeli tourist site with a focus on its Jewish heritage.

[11:29:44]

DIAMOND: The man behind that project is far-right heritage minister, Amichai Eliyahu, who has, among other things, said he would be open to nuking Gaza. He says Palestinians have failed to preserve the site and protect it from looters.

In order to protect the site, why is it necessary to expropriate privately-held Palestinian lands?

AMICHAI ELIYAHU, ISRAELI HERITAGE MINISTER (through translator): The area is Israeli territory. It belongs to the Jewish people. It is not occupied.

I am not willing to have the story of the Jewish people destroyed, sabotaged, robbed, dismantled, or erased.

DIAMOND: But Palestinians say, it's Israel standing in the way of efforts to rehabilitate these ruins.

AZHARI: We tried to do a rehabilitation, an urgent and emergency rehabilitation. During the work settlers, soldiers came, they stopped all the labors.

ALON ARAD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EMEK SHAVEH: So, they keep on repeating this argument that the Palestinians are destroying archaeological remains but have not shown any data to support it.

DIAMOND: Alon Arad leads a group of Israeli archaeologists fighting against what they say are the real intentions of this government and Eliyahu.

ARAD: He doesn't care about antiques. He wants to annex. It's not about the site. It's the ability to use the site as a weapon, as an instrument to take more land, to shrink this Palestinian space. DIAMOND: The Palestinian Authority, supported by archaeologists like Arad, has filed an emergency petition to designate Sebastia as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

ELIYAHU: UNESCO can say whatever it wants. If it tries to go against the truth and invent narratives here, it will not succeed.

DIAMOND: It seems like ultimately, you are trying to strengthen Israel's position on the grounds in that territory.

ELIYAHU (through translator): The land is irrevocable. The facts are irrevocable. What are you suggesting? That we let them erase our heritage?

The facts are that this is the land of our fathers and mothers.

DIAMOND: Palestinians are also deeply rooted in this land, like the olive trees Sebastia's families have cultivated amid the ruins for generations.

AZHARI: This is everything for us. I cannot imagine Sebastia without the archaeological site. It's like your children, you cannot like leave one of them.

This is the heart of people of Sebastia and Sebastia at the same time.

DIAMOND: Jeremy Diamond, CNN -- Sebastia, the West Bank.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Still to come -- stolen goods, moral questions and nostalgia for 1980s New York. In "Cool Machine", award winning author Colson Whitehead wraps up his celebrated Harlem trilogy with humor and irony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITEHEAD: It's a Valentine, but also with a body count. And so I'm not shying away --

GOLODRYGA: I love that line.

WHITEHEAD: -- I'm not shying away from how the city actually is. It's beautiful and also tragic. It will chew you up, but also lift you up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:32:36]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back.

From "The Underground Railroad" to "The Nickel Boys", two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning author Colson Whitehead has established himself as one of the world's most original and thoughtful writers, with his ability to subvert genre, examine America's past and present, and humanize the black experience.

And now, the conclusion of his celebrated Harlem trilogy has hit shelves to rave reviews.

In "Cool Machine", aging protagonist and furniture salesman Ray Carney decides to run one last scam. Colson Whitehead sat down with me in New York to discuss how he uses fiction to explore the moral and political questions of our time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Colson Whitehead, welcome back to the program. I feel like we've been together through the inception of this trilogy here. Christiane interviewed you after "Harlem Shuffle". I interviewed you with "Crook Manifesto" and now here we are with "Cool Machine".

WHITEHEAD: Yes, the last one is done. I mean, if I had hobbies, I would do something else, but I just like working.

GOLODRYGA: Well, it's understandable given the character here and Ray Carney in particular. What is it that three books can tell about his storyline that one book couldn't?

WHITEHEAD: Well, it becomes bigger than him, becomes the supporting cast steps up, the city becomes the character, and we get this real sort of panorama of the city.

And so, over the 30 years of his life, we follow him in the 60s, 70s and 80s, we really get to see that evolution of his character and the other characters as well.

And so, it evolved in a very lovely way. It's been a challenging but also very fulfilling project.

GOLODRYGA: Harlem itself is its own character through a number of generations here in the 60s, 70s, 80s. You were born in the 60s. I know you drew a lot of inspiration from research, but also your own parents.

Just talk about you having to maybe reflect to your own childhood now in writing about what the 80s in New York was like.

WHITEHEAD: Yes. I was born in '69. And so, the last part of "Crook Manifesto", Bicentennial Year 1976, I have sort of vague memories.

I'm definitely more connected to the 80s. That's when I came of age, culturally. I gave shout outs to various record stores and bars I used to go to in college.

And so, there's less archaeology and more preserving in a more active way, the New York of the 80s.

[11:39:44]

GOLODRYGA: Carney really has achieved such a pinnacle professionally here. He's a business owner now, successful business owner. And yet still a master fence. You can't get the fence out of him. Why?

WHITEHEAD: Well, he's settled with his real business. He sells furniture. It's, you know, going fine.

GOLODRYGA: Wins awards.

WHITEHEAD: He wins awards. He's Northwest Regional Dealer of the Year. He's very proud of that.

And his fencing sideline is, you know, sort of quiet and he keeps it up. But there's an emptiness. He's an empty nester. His kids have gone to college. His footsteps echo in the brownstone.

And so, really, this is the question about what's next. He's middle aged. He's achieved a certain amount of success. And, now what?

GOLODRYGA: You start the book with a vivid description of New York in 1981. The pivot from the Bronx is burning in the 70s to Reagan 80s, how am I doing, Ray Kroc?

And it actually reminded me a little bit of the book, "Gods of New York", from last year and sort of what New York was like at that time.

Can you read a section of the book from that?

WHITEHEAD: Sure, yes. New York City in 1981. "The city that year was true to its personality as malformed across the centuries. A monstrous entity powered by innate miseries, operated by brute will and held together by pluck, fury and rebar. It had been flat broke and now clambered from the crater of debt, one mucky handhold at a time. Crime and its ingenuity devised new permutations daily, making every citizen a victim or a witness."

GOLODRYGA: So, how does that passage set up the rest of the story?

WHITEHEAD: It's a time of survivors. You know, we're all sort of beaten up by circumstances and life sometimes. And we're clambering, you know, handhold by handhold out of -- out of the pit. And so, that's where you find Carney entering into this new stage.

GOLODRYGA: And one last heist as well for Carney at the Waldorf Astoria, of all places. What made you want to knock off one of the grandest hotels in New York?

WHITEHEAD: The crimes in the first two books are very sort of low technology, very sweaty guys. They're hunched over the safe.

And it's the last book. It's the 80s. And so, I was talking to my friend and he said, you know, you got to go big. And so, the crimes are bigger. There's a bigger scale, there's bigger stakes. And I really want to, you know, wrap up the story properly.

GOLODRYGA: They tend to call your Harlem books nostalgic. You tell it all, though -- the rats, the sewers, the garbage, the crime.

Is nostalgia the right word here? Because on the one hand, it does seem to be a love story to a city that is like no other. But you don't hold back either.

WHITEHEAD: No, I'm trying to be truthful. It's a Valentine, but also with a body count. And so, I'm not shying away --

GOLODRYGA: I love that line.

WHITEHEAD: -- I'm not shying away from how the city actually is. It's beautiful and also tragic. It'll chew you up, but also lift you up.

And that churn, that energy of the city is what I love about it. And if I can depict it, you know, I'm doing my job.

GOLODRYGA: Let's talk about New York today. Is there optimism in the city? It sort of feels like it. We've had the Knicks, world champions.

WHITEHEAD: Sure. Yes.

GOLODRYGA: We had a very successful World Cup here. The final ending just across the river. A mayor who you supported.

How do you feel about New York today?

WHITEHEAD: Well, you know, it's weird to have a mayor who smiles, seems to like the city he's running. So that's --

(CROSSTALK)

GOLODRYGA: How's he doing?

WHITEHEAD: That's very, very new. I know that we go through these boom-and-bust periods and so there is a really positive vibe in the city right now.

But in the back of my head, I'm like --

GOLODRYGA: You're just waiting.

WHITEHEADS: -- a couple of years, you know, but we bounce back. We always bounce back.

When I was writing "Crook Manifesto" was during the pandemic, and I couldn't leave the house. And I think writing that book saved me.

And I was thinking about the 70s when the city was also in crisis. And artists were working. It was the birth of punk and disco and hip hop.

So even when the city goes to these terrible moments, you know, we're working to pull it -- to pull it out. And so I have faith, but also I realize that, you know, things can go south at any moment.

GOLODRYGA: Well, keep writing. Keep writing. It makes us happy to read your work. Some are calling this the book of the year. So, congratulations. It has been quite a journey to follow you and to follow Ray Carney and his story as well.

WHITEHEAD: It's been a lot of fun. Thanks so much -- GOLODRYGA: Thank you so much for joining us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: And "Cool Machine", the third and final novel in Colson Whitehead's Harlem series, is out now.

Coming up, Ukraine's military shakeup as Zelenskyy replaces his top general.

We look back at Christiane's conversation with then commander-in-chief of the armed forces, Oleksandr Syrskyi about life on the front lines.

[11:44:41]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to the program.

This week, a shakeup at the highest levels of Ukraine's military has rocked the nation. President Zelenskyy firing his army's commander-in- chief Oleksandr Syrskyi, after nationwide protests over the sacking of the popular defense minister just one week before.

Syrskyi, dubbed "The Butcher" has long been criticized for tolerating high casualties in the war.

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GOLODRYGA: He's been replaced by Mykhailo Drapatyi, a younger, more popular general.

In 2024, Christiane secured a rare exclusive interview with General Syrskyi just after he took over as head of the armed forces. They spoke in an undisclosed location near the front lines.

Here's some of what he told her.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You, as commander, do you go to the frontlines? Do you go to the trenches? Do you talk to soldiers there and commanders?

What do they say to you? Because I know some of them have been there for, you know, more than two years. They barely get rotation. They don't get to see their family.

There're these glide bombs, these terrifying things, and the drones. And there's just so much. I mean, it's almost -- it's almost World War I kind of, you know, attacks on them in the trenches. And they're there for a long time with no real hope of rotation.

What do they say to you when you go to see them and talk to them?

GENERAL OLEKSANDR SYRSKYI, COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, ARMED FORCES OF UKRAINE (through translator): We speak the same language. We understand each other no matter who I am talking to, whether it is an ordinary soldier, a rifleman for example or a brigade commander or a battalion commander.

You know that I have been in this war since 2014. Since the beginning of the full-scale aggression, I have been participating in combat operations as the commander of the operational and strategic group.

Now, I am the commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. That is, the front line is my life. We understand each other. I know all the problems that our servicemen, soldiers, and officers experience.

Despite the difficult situation, we continue to carry out rotations. We didn't stop this process even when Avdiivka was happening, when there were perhaps more difficult times.

The issue of rotations remains a priority for us. Of course, people get exhausted and need rest. That is why the units are either withdrawn to the rear for rest or sent to training centers, where they spend a month or a month-and-a-half recuperating.

In this way, people restore their combat capabilities, their moral and mental state, and get the opportunity to visit their families and friends.

AMANPOUR: You became the overall commander at about the time that the U.S. Congress finally approved, you know, the tranche of weapons and help that they had promised you. It was a delay of six to seven months.

What material difference did that make to your fight, the fact that these weapons were delayed for so long?

SYRSKYI (through translator): Of course, this has had a negative impact when there's nothing to shoot with, no one and nothing to hold back the enemy.

First of all, it leads to an increase in the level of losses, an increase in our losses, not only in material resources, but also in human resources, because the highest value in the Ukrainian army is the life of a soldier.

It is very painful for us. And of course, it is painful to see that the losses of soldiers are increasing.

Well, the effectiveness of the use of troops is also extremely reduced. Because when you have nothing to shoot with, you cannot hit the enemy efficiently and effectively. And this leads to the loss of territory.

So, how can this affect us? Of course, negatively.

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GOLODRYGA: Syrskyi's sacking comes at a critical time for Ukraine's war effort as they look to shore up desperately needed military aid and relief.

U.S. senators are urging Congress to pass their bipartisan Russia sanctions bill in honor of one of its main sponsors, the late senator and longtime Kyiv supporter, Lindsey Graham. This, as the Senate also looks at a $1.3 billion security assistance package for Ukraine.

When we come back, the Pan Am plane crash that transformed how we all fly and how it was found after 74 years lost at sea. That's next.

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GOLODRYGA: And finally, it was the Pan Am flight that ended in tragedy, transforming the way we fly before disappearing into history. In 1952, the aircraft known as the Clipper Endeavor crashed shortly after taking off from Puerto Rico.

Despite the fact that all of its passengers survived the initial impact, only 17 people of the 69 on board were rescued.

The tragedy spurred change and safety briefings, which could have changed the fate of the lost passengers, are now something we take for granted in air travel.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If a change in pressurization occurs, oxygen masks will automatically drop from the small compartment above your seat.

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GOLODRYGA: But the plane, which triggered it all, vanished beneath the waves, becoming a hidden tomb. 74 years later, it's been found.

The Air Sea Heritage Foundation, the Discovery Channel and others finding the aircraft at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean off Puerto Rico's northern coast thanks to underwater drones.

Here's that moment of discovery.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could be the tail. Like it's sort of an x.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it's a tail, where's the plane?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this collapsed? Is this inverted?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't know what else is -- what else is around it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop. Oh my God. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a plane?

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's got to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Is that a plane?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my God. Look.

That could be an engine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That could be an engine. That looks like a wing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the nose. Look at the shape of the nose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that looks like a fuselage. I mean, that other wing isn't there, but that could be a plane.

That's a plane. I think there's a really good chance that's a plane.

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GOLODRYGA: Just incredible.

Well, that's all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. Thanks so much for watching.

Christiane will be back next week.