Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Putin And Prigozhin Addresses Russians After Rebellion; Ukrainian Military Claims Gains; China Voices Support To Russia On Failed Rebellion; WH: Wagner Rebellion Is "Internal Russian Matter"; DeSantis Pitches Crackdown On Illegal Immigration In New Campaign Policy Proposal; Study: Drug Shows Highest Amount Of Weight Loss Yet. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 26, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Wagner troops advancing towards Moscow in what appeared to be organized armed rebellion, suddenly halted after the Belarusian leader apparently helped strike a deal. The Wagner boss, Yevgeny Prigozhin, now speaking out today claiming he was not attempting to overthrow Russia's military. The march to Moscow he says was actually a, quote, "protest." He still continued to insult the Russian military though.

Well, back in the United States, President Biden made his first remarks about the mutiny emphasizing that the west had nothing to do with the Russian revolt. Our Matthew Chance is inside Russia tonight amid this seismic shift. He's there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the last time we saw the Wagner leader, departing the Russian city he had essentially taken over at the weekend, amid cheers from supporters.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

CHANCE (voice-over): Now Yevgeny Prigozhin is speaking out for the first time since agreeing to call off the armed rebellion that shook the Kremlin to its core. In an 11-minute recording, Prigozhin denies aiming to challenge the Russian president.

YEGVENY PRIGOZHIN, LEADER OF WAGNER GROUP (through translation): The purpose of the march was to prevent the destruction of Wagner and the prosecution of those who made a huge number of mistakes in the course of the special military operation due to their unprofessional actions. Society demanded this and all the soldiers who saw us supported us.

CHANCE (voice-over): But on Russian state television damage control is already in full swing after a weekend of mayhem. Prigozhin's armed rebellion has failed the presenter says. Russians stood in a united front for President Putin, she declares. But few doubt have weakened events of the past few days have left Russia's leader. But now for the first time since the rebellion ended, Vladimir Putin

has addressed the nation, too. In a short speech, condemning the rebellion as treachery, something Putin has in the past said he would not forgive.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translation): They wanted Russian soldiers to kill each other, to kill military personnel and civilians so that in the end Russia would lose and our society would split, choke in bloody civil strife.

CHANCE (voice-over): What will become of Yevgeny Prigozhin now, whether he will be prosecuted or not remains unclear. Although he did appear to confirm for the first time that he may indeed take a Kremlin offer to head to Belarus and resume Wagner's operations from there.

That may no longer be on the table for a once loyal Putin ally. He appears to have made a dangerous enemy in the Kremlin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(On camera): Well, Erin, officials in Belarus who I've been speaking the throughout the course of the day are refusing to confirm reports that Yevgeny Prigozhin is already there. So, we're none the wiser about that. But Belarusian opposition figures who I spoke to as well say it would be foolish of Yevgeny Prigozhin to think he was safe and protected in a country that is essentially run by Alexander Lukashenko who is one of Putin's closest allies.

BURNETT: Absolutely. Now, Matthew, you know, obviously you're there with a view that very few in the world have right now. What is the mood? What is the feeling on the streets of Moscow right now?

CHANCE: Well, I think that's a good question because it's divided. There's a lot of relief, of course, that the bloodshed and the threat of an armed incursion into Moscow, the Russian capital, was averted by this deal being done. But there was also a great deal of sympathy with the critique that Yevgeny Prigozhin made about the conduct of the war in Ukraine.

A lot of anger that was simmering beneath the surface that Yevgeny Prigozhin sort of expressed on the part of many, many Russians who have seen tens of thousands of their soldiers killed inside Russia. And so, relief, but also anxiety as well about what this uprising, this armed rebellion may mean for the country in the near future.

BURNETT: Matthew, thank you very much. Matthew Chance, as I said, in Moscow tonight.

And in Ukraine, the big question, right, the attempted rebellion, all of it. It's all because of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. And of course, we're sitting here in the capital, Kyiv, tonight wondering what will happen to the war here? What does this mean for the war?

[17:04:58]

Well, today, Ukraine says it captured a new settlement, that it's making gains along the front lines in Donetsk and claims slight advantage around the embattled city of Bakhmut. Our chief international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is with us here and we're together in Kyiv. You know, interesting in Bakhmut, talking to soldiers there, you know, that they thought there was initial panic on the part of the Russian forces, but then sort of quickly went back to business as usual. Unclear how Russian forces are really responding to this. But what do you think this means for the counteroffensive?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, I think if you're Ukrainian officials, you're probably stuck between trying to seize the moment of knowing there's chaos or perhaps trying to work out if that will begin to continue unraveling in Moscow in the days ahead.

We don't know if this is simply going to be a months' long saga of Putin losing control or whether this is the peak of that particular chaos. Since that may be determining whether they decide to throw all their cards in at some point and launch more troops at certain (inaudible) as, too, with the question of where any troop dislocations over the weekend may leave the Russian front lines weakest.

BURNETT: Right. And big questions about that. Now, you know, obviously, just talking to a couple of soldiers, you know, the morale seemed high with the four days on, four days off, rotations on the Ukrainian side. It's operating efficiently, at least in these particular instances. But what does control look like in Bakhmut where we're still talking about bits of territory per day?

WALSH: I mean, the initial advances we saw in the past weeks occurred roughly about the time in which Wagner first made its threats to leave and were under the most amount of pressure by the ministry of defense to perhaps become part of their ranks. And so, it wasn't really a coincidence, I think, that Ukraine chose to throw more resources during the counteroffensive in that direction then, throwing (ph) our suggestion that Wagner's presence is significantly less in that city where they threw thousands of their soldiers, lost hundreds over the winter.

And so, the advance on Moscow may not have massively impacted there because I think it's fair to say those troops he walked up there and four highways towards Moscow or drove that way would have been prepared for probably weeks to do that. They wouldn't have left the front lines on Thursday and turn --

BURNETT: Well, that's an interesting point, that in preparation for weeks, right? What it means about how much is this planned and where it goes from here, we just don't know but of course, it's in a sense, it's a seminal moment for the war. And here in Kyiv earlier today, just obviously where we are, I spoke to the mayor, Mayor Vitali Klitschko. They've been hit, as you know, right, where we are, every couple night. There was a strike again this weekend. And here is one part of our discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VITALI KLITSCHKO, MAYOR OF KYIV: Actually, right now the Russian system show so many streaming here under the water, illegal streaming. And the Russian system is not so steady anymore, and more and more people asking if Putin was the reason of this war, and the country going the wrong way and we feel that, we listen that. And that was -- Prigozhin told they not accept Putin, his decision.

I'm more than sure it's one thing. Definitely Russian people asking the government, asking Putin, which reason (inaudible) company left Russia. Why the Russians not anymore welcome around the world? Why is the iron curtain coming back? And main question, for which reason died my husband, my friend, my brother, in Ukraine? Definitely, definitely this question (inaudible).

BURNETT: Do you think Prigozhin is back in Ukraine, or does no one know?

KLITSCHKO: I'm not ready to give you information where Prigozhin is. Prigozhin is criminal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: You know, and this is interesting. Obviously, we had spoken just before Prigozhin's, you know, 11-minute rant.

WALSH: Yeah.

BURNETT: But interesting how he's talking about the strain that they see in the Russian system and that Prigozhin is a criminal. And afterwards I said, well, if something were to happen and Prigozhin were to suddenly seize more power in Russia, what does that mean? Sort of a long pause. He's a criminal. It's bad. It's not better.

WALSH: No mistake at all, Prigozhin being in charge of the Russian war machine would be awful, frankly. Many soldiers in the Russian military would be send a more reckless task, but many Ukrainians too who have seen the appalling videos that Prigozhin's people have been putting out from Wagner, executing people with sledge hammers.

BURNETT: And castrations, is horrible, horrible stuff. Yes.

WALSH: Utterly grotesque war crimes. And so, I think we would see a more reflection of that start of warfare if Prigozhin had greater control. Not necessarily an improvement on this catastrophic war, but the key point in all of this is how Prigozhin now, despite the fact that Putin's desperately tried to draw this line under the weekend is still out there, still using Telegram, still posting these 11-minute critiques of how Putin -- biding messages the war has been a disaster and Russians are hearing that.

[17:09:57]

BURNETT: Yeah. And absolutely., Nick. That's the question, is what does it mean there? Because on the other hand you could say, look, the fact that Ukrainian soldiers would think there was some disarray on Saturday among Russian troops, but then sort of reverted back to normal. In a sense, that's surprising. If you think about what's happening and then the days of silence from Putin, that the front-line sort of operated -- I don't want to say functionally because I know there's been issues all along, but without great change is in a sense something on itself.

WALSH: Sometimes a lot of them are not allowed cell phones so actually they may not know.

BURNETT: Correct. They might not even know.

WALSH: And that news will filter down when people rotate in and out and say, God, did you hear what happened with Prigozhin? He turned on Putin. And so --

BURNETT: Marched to Moscow.

WALSH: I mean, unthinkable before this war even a month ago. And so, that maybe something which slowly impacts morale. It's pretty low there already, frankly. They're sending convicts to die. Sending convicts who are injured back to die again at the front lines. It's pretty bad. It's holding, but the idea I think of an overnight southern collapse where they will look at Telegram and go home or go --

BURNETT: That's all, we're done.

WALSH: It's gone wrong, let's leg it. I can't see it necessarily happening. It will be slower and the key point is when eventually a critical decision goes up the chain of command, will they have to choose between Bakhmut or Melitopol or places on the front line where Ukraine is pushing forward. The people making those decisions now have proven themselves to be pretty out of touch with reality and probably not even getting on very well with each other.

BURNETT: Yeah.

WALSH: And that fight for survival will impact the rational level of decisions that get made. Utterly vital moments. Forget about how important it is for Putin, for Russia as a state. They've already characterized this as an existential war of their survival. And so, losing there would be catastrophic for both Prigozhin and Putin.

BURNETT: All right. Nick Paton Walsh, of course, we'll be speaking ahead later on tonight. Thank you very much. And Bianna, back to you in New York.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Thanks, Erin. Well, coming up on "The Lead," why the attempted mutiny is putting new attention on Russia's relationship with China.

Then, move over Ozempic, there's a new experimental pill for weight loss and tests show that it may be even more effective.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:00]

GOLODRYGA: And we are back with our "World Lead." China's communist government is throwing support behind Vladimir Putin's regime after Wagner's failed military insurrection. Beijing is calling Russia its, quote, "strategic partner" in a new statement. Now, that show of support coming after a key Russian official hurriedly flew to China for talks on Sunday.

CNN's David Culver is following this for us. So, David, it was Russia's deputy foreign minister that quickly flew to Beijing. In terms of what we saw in pictures, they were all smiles. But tell us what's going on behind closed doors in Beijing as they watch things unfold so quickly in Russia.

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, you have to image that that scrambling to get the deputy foreign minister to Beijing to meet with the foreign minister there, Qin Gang, was an effort to say, hey, everything is okay. We're trying to stabilize things, don't you worry. Because obviously, China has a lot invested here, certainly, from a global stage perspective, if you will. I mean, they have shown themselves to be allies with Russia throughout its invasion of Ukraine providing diplomatic and economic support.

But the other big part of all of this is the personal relationship between President Xi and President Putin. President Xi has called President Putin his best, most intimate friend. And so, to see your friend going through what arguably is a question of your power and perhaps threatening of stability within the country, that's concerning, especially when you consider they are neighbors, they share 2,600 miles of border, and it's something that obviously China wants to make sure that their friendship is bolstered by stability within Russia.

All in all, though, you have to look at how the Chinese are handling this publicly. And certainly, the foreign ministry is saying, actually, what the White House is saying, too, and that is, this is a Russian internal matter.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah. And no doubt these two authoritarian leaders always put their country's interests first. But there is really a true friendship and relationship that has been cultivated over the past several years between these two leaders. How is Chinese state media covering this chaos in Russia, if at all?

CULVER: It was certainly a wait-and-see moment not only for officials, but Chinese state media. They had been, even throughout the invasion of Ukraine parroting what the Kremlin has been saying. So, Chinese state media over the weekend, it was interesting. They even had one of their reporters in a very peaceful, tranquil garden backdrop. They showed traffic as usual around the Kremlin, so, really, no instability whatsoever.

And of course, it's where we look at Chinese social media that's often tightly controlled as well, where we started to see something that was actually quite interesting, Bianna. And that was you saw some folks posting, and this wasn't censored immediately, that they were concerned with the hypotheticals here. What if Putin falls? And today we're expressing that concern and it was getting a lot of traction online over the weekend in China. GOLODRYGA: Yeah. That is fascinating to hear, that falling through

the cracks there, their censors. David Culver, thank you so much.

CULVER: Thanks.

GOLODRYGA: Well, joining me for more in what is happening in Russia, Polina Ivanova is the Russian correspondent for the Financial Times, along with Dmitri Alperovitch, the former special advisor for the Defense Department, both Russia experts. Dmitry, let me start with you. You described what we saw from Vladimir Putin over the weekend and even in just the past few hours as an angry and scared leader right now. What exactly is he scared of?

DMITRI ALPEROVITCH, FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER, DEFENSE DEPARTMENT: Well, he's scared of the fact that he's just seen the biggest challenge to his power in his entire presidency. The fact that for the first time, really since 1941 when Hitler invaded Russia, you had hostile armored columns moving on Moscow reaching within two hours of Moscow, completely unprecedented.

And the fact that the Russian military for whatever reason was unable or unwilling to stop them is really an incredible achievement by Prigozhin and something that Putin surely did not expect. And he's angry because Putin values loyalty above all else. You can steal under him. You can kill. You can be a criminal. But one thing you cannot be is disloyal. And the fact that Prigozhin challenged the system, even though he did not try to challenge Putin directly, Putin strongly took it as a personal challenge is very significant.

[17:19:59]

GOLODRYGA: So, Polina, given that, what I'm having trouble understanding is why the Kremlin which has such strict control over state media actually showed images of Prigozhin being cheered on by residents in Rostov over the weekend. They have effectively helped increased his visibility and popularity by doing so.

POLINA IVANOVA, RUSSIA CORRESPONDENT, FINANCIAL TIMES: Trust me, they did not want anyone to see those images, but they don't have as much control over the situation at the moment as they would like to. The events happened in Rostov. There was a lot of people there, a lot of witnesses. Every one of those witnesses had a phone, was able to communicate what was going on. It was a very dramatic 24 hours, but also a very highly documented 24 hours with a lot of social media content from a lot of people who were experiencing it firsthand. And it was something that you couldn't, you know, brush under the carpet or conceal.

GOLODRYGA: So, Dmitri, where do you see things going from here? Putin remains in power, but what is the state of his power? You know, you and I were talking off air and we were talking about previous leaders like Erdogan responding to attempted coups. And after that in 2016, he was all over the airwaves and immediately clamped down on any opposition. We're not seeing that.

ALPEROVITCH: Yeah. The big question of the entire weekend is where is Mr. Putin, right? He had the one video that he put out Sunday morning announcing that Prigozhin as a traitor. Of course, then it was later reversed and the traitors were no longer going to get crushed, but going to get amnesties and maybe exile to Belarus. He just put out another video a few hours ago, still being very angry but reaffirming the commitment not to prosecute people and to let them leave.

Really remarkable situation. There's no question that his power is now weakened. There's no question that a lot of people around the country, the elites, various governors, various people in the social -- in the security services are probably asking themselves, if Prigozhin can really get away with this, with challenging state power like this, what can I get away with.

And it's not that I think that Putin is about to be overturned in some sort of coup, but his power may be weakened so much, that others around in the system may be making decisions, critical decisions about their own futures, about their own enrich enrichment, of their own coffers and their own power without consulting with Putin, without getting permission from Putin. So, you may have decentralization of power occurring in Russia over time.

GOLODRYGA: Polina, it is very difficult to get a pulse on where Russians view leadership and the true popularity of Vladimir Putin. We thought those numbers were over 50 percent. And yet we didn't see that many people come out in support over the weekend. There was this air of indifference, in fact. Maybe it was just people were shocked at how quickly things were transpiring. But what is the sense among Russians in terms of their continued support for Vladimir Putin, and are they open for any sort of change in leadership?

IVANOVA: I mean, people were definitely completely taken off guard. I mean, they're caught completely off guard. There was a high degree of anxiety just among ordinary people. I was in touch with friends, relatives as the column were approaching Moscow, and there was a lot of anxiety about what could happen next and the instability that could happen.

I mean, the last time Moscow experienced anything like that was 30 years ago, but that is still for a lot of people something in living memory. So, there was definitely anxiety among elites. You could see this absence of decision making and really, for example, state news anchor, one of the most famous propagandists on Russian television, Margarita Simonyan, did not come out with any statements throughout all of Saturday, appearing, resurfacing effectively only, you know, another 24 hours after the coup attempt with a statement in support of the president and criticizing Prigozhin and the uprising. So, there was a lot of -- from the looks of it, you know, people trying to work out what was going on and where best to align themselves.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Margarita Simonyan gave some excuse that she had been on vacation and not very believable that she hadn't been following what was happening in the country. Dmitri, finally to you, what will you be watching and paying closest attention to in the days and weeks to come?

ALPEROVITCH: I think the critical question right now is what is going to happen to Prigozhin. Is he actually going to go into compile in Belarus? And by the way, if he does, is he going to preserve Wagner? Is Wagner going to go with him? Are they still going to be armed and supplied by the department of defense, either in Russia or maybe Belarus?

And if that's the case, if he is not jailed, if he is not killed by Putin, that is going to send a signal to everyone that Putin is weaker than they thought and you can get away with a lot. And that's going to mean, you know, potential problems for him down the road.

[17:25:01]

And, again, I think a coup is unlikely. But one thing that is now a possibility, perhaps not a very likely possibility, but never has a possibility, is that Putin doesn't actually run in elections next year. That perhaps there's a managed transition where some elites come to him and say, you know what, let's move on to the new generation, step aside, we'll protect you, you keep your ill-gotten gains, will not be sent to the criminal court of justice in the Hague, but it's time for you to move on.

GOLODRYGA: Well, that is fascinating to even hypothesize about, given that they just changed the laws that would have allowed him to effectively be control of the country until 2036. Things are changing rapidly. And thank you both for your expertise and covering this for us. Polina Ivanova and Dmitri Alperovitch, thank you.

ALPEROVITCH: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, how the White House is responding to the failed rebellion in Russia. We'll have the latest also from Pennsylvania Avenue, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:30:18]

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He gave Putin no excuse to blame this on the West or to blame this on NATO.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: That was President Biden today making it clear that the United States was not involved in the Wagner group's rebellion in Russia. It comes as both the White House and the State Department are really weighing where the United States goes from here in what is, of course, a terrible relationship with Vladimir Putin.

CNN's Kylie Atwood joins us from the State Department. And Jeremy Diamond is at the White House today. Jeremy, let me just start with you there, because we just heard President Biden, right? He says Western allies agree they don't want to give Putin any reason to blame this on the West or on NATO. But, of course, he's done that for the entire war itself, right? I mean, he's always doing that. So is there any chance that he doesn't do it this time?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you said, Erin, it's certainly part of the Kremlin's playbook to blame the West and to try and foment dissent among the Western allies supporting Ukraine. And so it came as no surprise to the White House when this morning, Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, appeared to indicate that they were going to look into whether or not there was any kind of Western support. And that's when we got the first on the record denial from the White House that they had no involvement with this coup.

That's also why over the weekend, we saw the White House being strategically silent on this matter and why the President explained today that he coordinated with U.S. allies to give Putin and the Kremlin no excuse, no opportunity to try and blame the West for this. Now, interestingly, Putin, in his remarks earlier today, he did not directly blame the West.

He did say that this was exactly what Kyiv and its Western allies would want to see inside of Russia, but he didn't directly point the finger. And so that is interesting in and of itself. Nonetheless, White House officials are keeping a close eye for any further comments or any further attempts by Russia to blame the West.

BURNETT: So, Kylie, the United States was publicly very quiet about this over the weekend, and I should note, over the weekend, right, we didn't hear from Putin or Prigozhin either. Now, they've broken their silence. But U.S. diplomats have been very busy sending messages to Russian officials, you know, on back channels that, you know, may or may not have been active recently. So what do you know about these messages?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, listen, what we're hearing from State Department officials is that there was a very active effort to reach out to Russian officials as this all was unfolding over the weekend. As you said publicly, U.S. officials weren't saying much, but their messages to their Russian counterparts in these diplomatic channels were essentially threefold. First of all, they expected Russia to make sure that the safety and security of the U.S. embassy and U.S. personnel in Russia was upheld. And secondarily, they were telling them that the U.S. had nothing to do with this.

They really wanted to make sure that Russia knew that U.S. had no involvement in Prigozhin's march towards Moscow. And then the third thing, of course, was they were making sure that Russians knew the United States did not want them to use their nuclear arsenal. And State Department spokesperson Matt Miller did not describe how Russia responded to these messages when he was at the podium today.

But what he did say is that this was a conversation, so indicating, therefore, that the Russians were actually engaging, responding in some way, shape or form, not just ignoring that these messages were coming through.

BURNETT: And it's interesting you talk about the State Department Spokesperson, Matthew Miller. He said that it was a new development to see Prigozhin directly criticizing the fundamental rationale for the war. Obviously, he criticizes the war in blistering terms almost every single day, right? But Matthew Miller is drawing the distinction between actually criticizing the predicate for the war itself. Is that distinction fair? And does the State Department think that this is a big development?

ATWOOD: They think that is one of the major developments out of the last, you know, 48 hours here. Because we did hear from Prigozhin today, who said essentially that the aim of his march towards Moscow was to protect the Wagner force and to make sure that those who had made mistakes in the Ukraine war were held accountable, essentially. We know he believes that those are folks in the Russian Ministry of Defense.

But when he spoke over the weekend, he was also challenging President Putin's rationale for even invading Ukraine in the first place. And that's significant. And that's what Matt Miller was hitting on when he was talking about, you know, just the fact that whole idea of the Russian invasion in Ukraine itself being challenged, and also saying that President Putin compared what was happening to 1917, when there was a revolution that overthrew the leader of Russia at that time, which was pretty significant.

[17:35:01]

BURNETT: Yes, pretty significant and interesting that he would be the one to make that, as he is the current leader. So, Jeremy, to that front, where does the White House see things going from here, at least on the face of it, right? The world looks very different today than it did a few days ago.

DIAMOND: Well, you heard the Secretary of Stage just yesterday saying that it shows cracks in Putin's regime. And today, President Biden making clear that they are going to continue to assess the fallout, but that they simply don't know exactly what happens next. And interestingly, you know, in the briefing today that we had with the National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby, he wasn't able to answer a lot of questions about what the future of the Wagner Group is, what the future of the Putin regime is. And part of that is trying to be cautious as these events continue to develop.

But part of that is an acknowledgment of this reality that this is a situation that could go in a number of different directions. So they're going to continue to be cautious on this and they're also going to continue to try and not weigh in as much again because of those concerns that we talked about earlier. Erin?

BURNETT: Jeremy, thank you. Kylie, thank you.

And coming up on The Lead, a court appearance in the Donald Trump classified documents case. He is due in court tomorrow and why? Plus, more coverage from Ukraine, I'll be joining you for out front at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:31]

GOLODRYGA: In our Politics Lead, tomorrow, former President Donald Trump's co-defendant is set to be arraigned on federal charges in the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case. Walt Nauta will appear in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida as the special counsel is requesting Trump face trial in December.

With me now, Democratic strategist Paul Begala and Sarah Matthews, former White House deputy press secretary in the Trump administration. Welcome, both of you. Sarah, let me start with you because prosecutors gave Trump and Nauta the list of witnesses with whom Trump's team cannot discuss the Mar-a-Lago documents case. Now, this list is part of the terms of release for Trump and Nauta as they await trial, and if they violate it, they could be held in contempt or detained even. What is the likelihood, in your view, that Trump actually takes this seriously and abides by it?

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: I think that there is a problem here with Trump now having access to the witness list. Obviously, when the January 6th Committee hearings were going on, we saw a case of witness intimidation happening with Cassidy Hutchinson, one of the key witnesses in that case. And so it makes me worried about whether it's Trump or someone in Trump world, then intimidating these witnesses now that they have the names.

GOLODRYGA: And there is proven history showing that has happened in the past. Paul, I want to read an excerpt from "The New York Times" op-ed written by a retired and staunchly conservative federal judge, J. Michael Luttig, called the Republican Party based spineless for its continued support of the former president. And here's what he said. He said, if the indictment of Mr. Trump on espionage charges, not to mention his now almost certain indictment for conspiring to obstruct Congress from certifying Mr. Biden as the President on January 6th, fails to shake the Republican Party from its morbid political senses, that it is beyond saving itself, nor ought to be saved. Were you surprised by this take?

PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Judge Luttig has stepped out. He testified so powerfully before the January 6th Committee. For people who don't know, he is one of the most respected, esteemed and most conservative legal minds of the last half century, widely respected. And so for him to say that he's no liberal, for him to say that is really quite shocking. And I'll let him speak to the legalities. I'm sure he's right. He's an expert.

The politics of this, that he is right about, I know politics. And our last CNN poll, 23 percent of Republicans said they could never support Trump for the nomination. Now he's the dominant candidate with the rest of the party. But when you're losing 23 percent of your party, some number of them will bleed over the general election. Now, Trump got 94 percent of Republicans against Joe Biden. It still wasn't enough. He lost. So he's eroding with his own party. He's eroding with independence.

Judge Luttig is right. They may find a situation where Trump is unbeatable for the nomination, but unelectable in the general election, and that's catastrophe for the Republican Party.

GOLODRYGA: And yet he continues to lead, at least in the Republican early polls. Sarah, let's turn to the 2024 presidential race and specifically talk about Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, because he's rolling out his first major policy proposal, and that is a crackdown on illegal immigration. This includes building a wall at the southern border. Of course, if this sounds familiar, it's because we've seen this movie before. If the Republican electorate views this as sort of just a Trump carbon copy, do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing for DeSantis to differentiate himself?

MATTHEWS: I actually think this is a really smart issue for DeSantis to try to differentiate himself on from Donald Trump. Donald Trump likes to talk a big game on the border, but when you look at the facts, a lot of the things he promised during his campaign, he actually didn't fulfill. I mean, look, he said that were going to build a wall and Mexico was going to pay for it. While we did build a portion of the wall, it was never finished and Mexico didn't pay for it.

And so Ron DeSantis is trying to highlight that Donald Trump did not fulfill these promises. And I think it's smart for him to outline what his policy proposals are then for fixing this issue that has only gotten worse under President Biden.

GOLODRYGA: In many respects, Paul, it appears that he's trying to out Trump, even Trump. I mean, DeSantis's policy rollout also includes ending birthright citizenship, which Trump tried to do but ran into something called the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which grants citizenship to all people who were born or naturalized here in the U.S. So DeSantis is saying that he's going to basically force the courts in Congress to address this failed policy. He didn't say how. Do you think that he has some insight into how to go around the 14th Amendment, perhaps even change it?

[17:45:17]

BEGALA: Yes, I hope he didn't pay full price for that Yale law degree, because, man, he's not using it. He's clearly a smart guy. So I have to present this as a political stunt. I don't think that's the way to go at Trump. Sarah may be right. She knows her party better than I do. My own sense is it's not a smart strategy for DeSantis to try to out Trump Trump among Trump voters on a Trump issue. I think a far better strategy is what Chris Christie is doing, which is not to say Trump wasn't Trumpy enough, but saying Trump wasn't for you.

Trump neglected you. He's in it for himself, and you're suffering. He betrayed you. I think it's a far better argument to make it about the voters. But Mr. DeSantis, Governor DeSantis, seems to hell bent on out Trumping Mr. Trump, and I just don't think he's going to be able to. Maybe his wife will change her name to Melania or something. I don't know. But I don't think it's going to work.

GOLODRYGA: So, Sarah, speaking of Trump, on Truth Social, he finally weighed in on this failed uprising and mutiny in Russia. And here's what he said, a big mess in Russia, but be careful for what you wish for. Next it may be far worse. Maybe about to say next it may be far worse. What would a second Trump presidency mean for Vladimir Putin and his war on Ukraine? And perhaps, you know, Vladimir Putin's leadership is now being called into question as well.

MATTHEWS: I think that Trump presidency would be music to Vladimir Putin's ears. Obviously, Trump is expressing his support seemingly on Truth Social for Putin staying in power when I think that he should be showing support for our ally, Ukraine in their fight for freedom in this unprovoked war. I think that this is an area, too, for our GOP field to differentiate themselves from Donald Trump, who has been soft on Russia, and it seems like DeSantis has been a little soft on this issue as well. And so I think that the others in the field could really set themselves apart by taking a strong stance in supporting Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA: We'll see what the other candidates say if they weigh in on this crisis unfolding in Russia as well. Paul Begala, Sarah Matthews, thanks as always for your time.

BEGALA: Thanks Bianna, great to see you.

GOLODRYGA: And coming up, the experimental pill that could be one of the most effective treatments for weight loss to date. We'll tell you more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:45]

GOLODRYGA: In our Health Lead, a significant breakthrough in an experimental medication for weight loss. A study of Eli Lilly's next gen drug shows the highest amount of weight loss for any drug yet, up to 24 percent over the course of 48 weeks. CNN's Meg Tirrell joins me now for more on this. So, Meg, break down these results and how it compares to other currently approved medicines specifically for weight loss.

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so this is a new class of medicines. We've heard about some of them, like Ozempic and Wegovy. Those medicines go after one hormone in the gut. They try to mimic it to try to suppress appetite and sort of slow stomach emptying so that you stay full longer. Now, we've been seeing iterations upon these drugs to get better levels of weight loss. Another one is called Mounjaro that's already on the market for type two diabetes. That one has gotten up to 21 percent weight loss in clinical trials, compared with about 15 percent for Wegovy, which is approved for obesity.

Now, if you're looking at this new medicine, it's also from Eli Lilly, and it's called Retatrutide. That's the sort of chemical name for it. It doesn't even have a brand name because it's only in mid stage trials. They've seen 24 percent weight loss over even a shorter period of time, 48 weeks, than these drugs that are already on the market.

And that one mimics three different hormones. And so you're sort of seeing that turbocharged amount of weight loss in this trial. Now, all of these medicines are injectable drugs given once a week. Right now, we've also been seeing some new data on pill versions of these drugs, which produce about 15 percent weight loss, too. So this field is dramatically opening up right now.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and it sounds very promising. Are there any side effects for these drugs?

TIRRELL: There definitely are. Some of the things we hear about are sort of gastrointestinal side effects, like nausea, vomiting, constipation, things like that. It tends to be worse when you're just starting on the drugs and slowly increasing the dose. But it is something that we see across the entire class.

GOLODRYGA: And for patients that start taking these drugs, is it something they have to do in perpetuity for the rest of their lives, essentially?

TIRRELL: So far, the trials have shown that when patients stop taking these medicines, weight does tend to rebound. And so it's something that's being looked into. Can there be more counseling in terms of exercise and nutrition that can help folks not have to take the drugs forever and be able to keep weight off, but so far, we have not been seeing that.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Meg Tirrell, keep us posted. Thank you so much.

Well, still ahead on The Lead, an update on the Ohio College student murders and a new filing from prosecutors. But first, here CNN's Alex Marquardt in for Wolf Blitzer with what's next in the Situation Room. Alex, good to see you.

[17:54:18]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: Good to see you, Bianna. We will have a lot more on the fallout from this incredible insurrection carried out by Yevgeny Prigozhin. I'll be speaking with a former CIA director as well as a former national security adviser. And then my colleagues and I have new reporting on what U.S. intelligence knew on the lead up to this rebellion. All that at the top of the hour right here in The Situation Room.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: In our Law and Justice Lead, a new court filing shows Idaho prosecutors will seek the death penalty for Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of killing four University of Idaho students last November. Police arrested Kohberger at his parent's home more than a month after the murders. Investigators say they connected him to DNA on the 9th sheet found at the crime scene. Kohberger faces four counts of first degree murder in the killings of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen. He has been in custody since his arrest and is being held without bail.

In our National Lead, more than 5,000 flights across the United States have been delayed or canceled after powerful storms tore through parts of the country, like this powerful funnel cloud that was captured as it was touching down in Greenwood, Indiana. Thunderstorms raged through Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi and PARTS of the Ohio Valley Sunday, leaving more than 700,000 people without power. Well, today some 90 million people are under threat of severe storms in the mid- Atlantic and Northeast and even as far south as Raleigh, North Carolina.

[17:59:52]

Well, thank you so much for watching the past two hours. I'm Bianna Golodryga in for Jake Tapper. Thank you for watching The Lead. Be sure to catch Erin Burnett out front from Kyiv at 7:00 p.m. Our coverage continues now with Alex Marquardt in for Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room.