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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Hamas Releases 11 More Hostages; No Americans Included; Elon Musk Visits Israel; Agreement Reached To Extend Truce For Two Days; Judge Grants C.J. Rice Petition To Challenge Sentence; Trump: Threats To Judge, Clerk Don't Justify Gag Order. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 27, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, another group of hostages held by the terrorist group Hamas is free and on their way back to Israel. Moments ago, the Israel Defense Forces released this video saying it shows the moment the 11 released hostages entered Israel this evening. We believe that the group is now on their way to hospitals where they will be reunited. with their families. Almost all of those freed today were children, 18 years old or younger. Two of them, two of them we are very happy to tell you, are 16-year-old Or Yaakov and his 13-year-old brother Yagil Yaakov.

On October 7th, on the very day, that horrible day that they were kidnapped, I spoke with their mom on the phone, live, with you, listening. And she had been talking to her sons as the terrorists went into her home. She was not in the home at the moment. And she told me that horrible story about hearing her sons being kidnapped by the terrorists of Hamas. This is October 7th itself. And here is some of that conversation we had that night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (via telephone): Live on the phone. They go break. I heard them carried, picking (inaudible). My teenagers and younger (inaudible). They do not forget (inaudible) is 16 and 12 so, it was very, very hard to hear. And the line went off (inaudible). That was the last time I heard from them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Thank God. Thank God that Or and Yagil are on their way back into their mother's warm embrace. Thank God -- along with 69 other hostages who have been released over the past four days under this temporary pause. Israel and Hamas confirm that they have agreed to extend this pause for two more days. We expect, we hope another 20 hostages will be released by Hamas.

CNN's Matthew Chance is in Tel Aviv outside the hospital where we expect the newly released hostages to arrive soon. Matthew, what will happen when these civilians, mostly children, get to the hospital?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Oh, well they're going to be obviously welcome back here. The hospital has released photographs of the special rooms they've prepared, each family and there are a couple of members of several families expected to be arriving here shortly by helicopter. Will get their own rooms, so they'll get privacy, they'll get medical attention and they'll get psychologically assessed because the trauma, as you were just talking about, the trauma for those girls, as a mother and her two three-year- old twins. They are expected to land here in the next few minutes as well.

It is going to be absolutely enormous. And to try and get a better understanding, Jake, of the ordeal these people have suffered inside Gaza. I spoke to a relative of some other Israeli hostages, former hostages that were released on Friday and the first group that were released, you know, kind of under this hostage deal to try and get a sense from her about what her family went through at the hands of Hamas inside the Gaza Strip. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:05:00]

CHANCE: Did she indicate to you if she was kept in a tunnel or in a cellar or in a house?

MERAV RAVIV, RELATIVE OF HAMAS HOSTAGES RELEASED ON FRIDAY: She was kept in different places. She doesn't know exactly where it is because they took them from place to place, but they were all together -- all of them, the three of them were together all the time. But I can tell you that they ate, but they ate a lot of rice. Sometimes they didn't have rice, so they ate only bread.

It wasn't that they were eating, you know, fruit and vegetables and vitamins and whatever things that you need. She told me that if you want to go to the toilet, you have to knock on the door. And only after one and a half hour, two hours, they opened the door and you can go to the bathroom. They weren't beaten or tortured. They got -- they were in closed room. They weren't with them. The room was locked and they were by themselves and that's it.

CHANCE: Let me ask you about Ohad (ph) briefly because one of the images that I remember most is when he was handed over to the Red Cross by a masked gunman and he was being held very tightly by one of those masked figures. You saw that picture.

RAIV: Yeah.

CHANCE: When you saw that what did you think?

RAVIV: I saw their faces. They were so scared. They were also scared what they told me that on the way with the ambulance, the people in Gaza just were on the car and they moved the car from place, you know, they like, yeah. And they had the --

CHANCE: They shook the car. Why?

RAVIV: Why? Because they don't like us. They knew that the hostages -- CHANCE: In an angry way.

RAVIV: Yeah, in an angry way, of course. The citizen or whatever, I don't know exactly. She doesn't know exactly. But she said that it was very, very scary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Very scary, the horror, the fear, the trauma. And of course, that trauma doesn't end here, Jake, for the hostage who were released. Because men and women are coming back into a world where friends, loved ones, neighbors are either missing or dead. And some of them don't even know that until they get back here into these hospitals and they start that process of rehabilitation.

TAPPER: All right, CNN's Matthew Chance in Tel Aviv, thank you so much. CNN's MJ Lee is at the White House. MJ, John Kirby, the spokesman for the National Security Council at the White House, he told CNN that no Americans were in the fourth group of hostages being released today. When does the White House believe that the nine Americans held by Hamas might be released?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake, to state the obvious, the White House is very disappointed that Americans did not end up being released today. They had said, of course, that three Americans would be among the 50 initial group of women and children hostages to be released over the course of four days. One of them was Abigail Edan, who we saw released yesterday, and then two additional women. But day four of this truce has now come and gone and no additional Americans released so far.

And nothing we can say so far about the condition of these two women either. But this is a big part of the reason, Jake, why U.S. officials have been pushing for an extension of this truce. We are told that senior White House officials had at least four phone conversations earlier today with the Qatari Prime Minister. CIA Director Bill Burns was closely engaged. Of course, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan was keeping the president apprised the whole time as negotiations were ongoing to extend this truce.

But we are about to learn in the next 48 hours or so whether these two American women will end up being a part of the 20 additional women and children that will be released over the course of two days. And that's of course separate from the seven other unaccounted Americans as well. They are men, but their conditions, we also know nothing about, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. MJ Lee at the White House for us. Thank you so much. Joining us now to discuss, the former Secretary of Defense under President Trump, Mark Esper. Secretary Esper, after this pause ends, which it will, do you think -- do you expect Israel to resume its airstrikes, which have drawn so much international outrage because of the collateral damage, the innocent civilians that have been killed? And what is your assessment of how Hamas is using this time, this pause, to regroup and reconstitute its ability to attack Israel?

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Sure, Jake. First of all, good to be with you this afternoon. Look, I think they will resume their offensive operations, Israel, that is, will resume offensive operations. And I think, look, they need to apply as much precision as possible to limit civilian casualties. The next phase likely will include a movement into the south, southern Gaza, which is at this point more dense in terms of the civilian population. So, it's going to be more tricky.

[17:10:00]

And look, the Hamas fighters have been pushed south as well. So, it's going to be very difficult. I think they understand that they need to, again, act with more precision. Now with regard to Hamas, clearly, they're not releasing hostages for humanitarian purposes. They are first of all trying to win the narrative out there with regard to the media and the international -- the press, the global community.

And secondly, they're using this time to reposition forces, to refit, to rearm themselves and do all those things. So clearly, they're going to gain a tactical advantage over the next few days, or as long as this pause extends, and they'll use it to their means, to their best purposes.

TAPPER: What tactical advantages are they gaining? I mean, Israel has a far superior military, right. I mean, Israel, I mean, obviously they've destroyed a lot of buildings and a lot of civilians have been killed, but there's no military contest here, right? I mean, what could -- what advantages Hamas gain here?

ESPER: Well, it'll be more difficult for the Israelis because, first of all, the Hamas, the militants will be allowed to rest and recuperate. Some will return to the battlefield after being, you know, stitched up, if you will. They will be able to fortify their positions. They will be able to create new fighting positions. They will be able to booby trap; better booby traps the tunnels underneath southern Gaza.

I mean, there are a number of things they can do to make the fight more challenging for the Israelis. But as you point out, at the end of the day, the advantage is with the IDF in this case. Even though it's going to be, you know, again, a ground fight on the ground in Gaza.

TAPPER: On Sunday, two ballistic missiles were fired from Yemen toward a U.S. warship in the Gulf of Aden after it tried to rescue a commercial tanker from a pirate attack. The missiles ended up landing, quote, "harmlessly in the water," according to the Pentagon. What's an appropriate U.S. response considering the Defense Department has not confirmed if the missiles were actually targeting the U.S. ship?

ESPER: Look, I've been saying for quite some time now that I don't think the administration's response has been sufficient with regard to attacks by Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria and elsewhere. At this point in time, I think there have been over 70-some attacks by Iran's proxies, and we've responded four, five, six times. It's insufficient, and that's why it continues.

And I don't believe it's a coincidence that we captured some Houthis that were trying to take over a ship, and all of a sudden two ballistic missiles are fired at a U.S. destroyer. Keep in mind, we did not respond to this, and we did not respond to the shooting down of one of our drones by the Houthis as well. So, these are more examples of a lack of response by the Biden administration.

And I know they're concerned. They fear that if they do too much, it'll escalate. My argument is just the opposite. If they don't do enough, that the attacks will continue. At some point, you know, Americans will be killed, and that's when it will escalate. So, I think, look, these militants, these terrorists, Tehran, they respond to a force, to people pushing back and I think we need to do more of that.

TAPPER: Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper, thanks so much for your time. I want to show you some pictures now as we go to break. It's a helicopter containing the freed Hamas hostages, helicopter landing at Tel Aviv, at Ichilov Hospital right outside Tel Aviv. It's a little bit after 12 midnight in Tel Aviv and the hostages are going to the hospital where they will meet family members and also of course be checked out after more than 50 days in the captivity of a terrorist organization. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(VIDEO PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:17:33]

TAPPER: Elon Musk, the world's richest man, got the VIP treatment today during a visit to Israel, which might be a bit surprising considering all the questions raised by his promotion of an anti- Semitic conspiracy theory, not to mention all of his boosting of anti- Semitic accounts on X, formerly known as Twitter. But as CNN's Nick Watt shows us, Israeli officials, including the prime minister himself, went out of their way to roll out the red carpet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The world's richest man taken by Israel's prime minister to a kibbutz attacked by Hamas October 7th.

UNKNOWN: The terrorists infiltrated into the kibbutz itself.

WATT (voice-over): There were umbrella bearers. Musk took some pictures. The editor of a prominent Israeli newspaper calls this a P.R. visit, calls Musk a blatant anti-Semite, accuses Netanyahu of amoral sycophancy. The backdrop to this visit? Well, Musk recently replied, you have said the actual truth to a tweet espousing anti- Semitic tropes that Jews push hatred of whites and promote minority immigration to Western nations.

That theory also espoused by the man who murdered 11 Jews at a Pittsburgh synagogue in 2018. Many accuse Musk of overseeing the descent of X into a cesspool of hate, particularly since October 7th. Self-described free speech absolutist, Musk bought Twitter, now X, for $44 billion. That investment is now in danger. There's an exodus of heavyweight advertisers over the hate.

Musk has said claims he's anti-Semitic could not be further from the truth. Today we could not reach him for comment, but Musk and Netanyahu had a chat live on X. They agreed on a lot.

ELON MUSK, CEO OF TESLA: Those who are intent on murder must be neutralized. Then the propaganda must stop and then making Gaza prosperous. And if that happens, I think it will be a good future.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Well, I hope you'll be involved in it.

MUSK: I'd love to help.

ISAAC HERZOG, PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL: Welcome to Israel, Mr. Musk. Your visit means a lot to us.

WATT (voice-over): Israel's president implored Musk to help fight anti-Semitism.

[17:20:00]

HERZOG: You have a huge role to play and I think we need to fight it together because under the platforms which you lead, unfortunately, there's a harboring of a lot of old hate which is Jew hate which is anti-Semitism.

MUSK: We have to do whatever is necessary to stop the -- I mean, essentially these people have been fed propaganda since they were children.

AVI MEYER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE JERUSALEM POST: We in the Jewish faith believe in repentance and atoning for one's sins. Perhaps that's what's going on right now, but the proof will be in the pudding. We'll have to see what happens on his platform.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT (on camera): Now, Elon Musk also controls Starlink, which is an internet satellite service, which makes him a key player in any conflict on this earth. Now, he wanted to provide the service to aid organizations in Gaza. The Israeli government wasn't happy saying that Hamas would use it for terrorist activities. Today, an Israeli government minister posted that they had reached an understanding that Starlink would only be used in Israel and Gaza with the approval of the Israeli government. We have not yet confirmed that. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Nick Watt, thanks so much. Coming up next, my conversation with a mother who played video from us today showing the moment Hamas captured her son. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:43]

TAPPER: As 11 more hostages return to Israel this evening, so many other families are waiting and hoping and praying that Hamas will release their kidnapped loved ones soon. That includes my next guest whose son was wounded by Hamas on October 7th. Joining me now is Rachel Goldberg, her 23-year-old American-Israeli son Hersh Goldberg- Polin, had his arm partly blown off by Hamas's terrorists on October 7th. He was in a bomb shelter. He remains a hostage in Gaza.

Rachel, thank you so much for being here. I cannot imagine how painful the last 52 days have been. You had the chance to meet with Elon Musk today. You showed him that video that captured that horrific moments after his arm was blown off, that video that Anderson Cooper showed you. What did Elon Musk have to say after you showed him that video?

RACHEL GOLDBERG, MOTHER OF HOSTAGE TAKEN BY HAMAS: I mean, he was obviously very -- you know, it's very dramatic footage. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, a video worth a million words. And I think he was really taken aback and just -- he was also just very surprised by the fact that this took place while someone was at the music festival. Like, he can't, you know, he was very sympathetic. He was -- I found him to be a very sympathetic person, clearly shaken and rattled by what he had seen. There were three other families that also shared their family's stories. He seemed genuinely concerned and moved by what he was hearing.

TAPPER: What has it been like for you as all these hostages have been released and most of them obviously have been women and children or seniors? Obviously, not a lot of young men have been released. It must be awful.

GOLKDBERG: No, you know its actually funny people keep asking that. The truth is we've become a family with so many of these, you know, hostage families that we were relieved when we were seeing these children coming out in these moms coming out these elderly grandmothers, you know, the holocaust survivor grandmother coming out. There was no sadness about that at all. In fact, if anything I would say it was finally a whisper of relief within like this like agonizing galaxy where we find ourselves.

The only thing that's -- that is concerning is that aside from Abigail (inaudible), the four-year-old American girl who, you know, is an orphan now, the other American women, Judith and Liat have not been released, and also obviously I'm worried about her. She's been like grizzly (ph) wounded and is now disabled for life with missing a limb that, you know, I'm worrying about him. I'm worrying about Keith who's a gentleman in his 60s.

So, like that's like a bit concerning, but there was no -- there was no ill feelings about these children and women coming out, truly.

TAPPER: Have you gotten any updates on Hersh from any of the individuals that have gotten out, any of the hostages who have been released?

GOLDBERG: Unfortunately, no. We haven't -- they've been, you know, the intelligence community people are checking, are going gently, you know, through things with the people who've been released. Obviously, they've gone through trauma so, you know, everyone's kind of respecting the process.

But the people who they have spoken to have not. They haven't -- they don't know his name. They haven't seen anyone who didn't have an arm. So, we're very worried. We're very, very worried. We feel like the clock is ticking, time is ticking.

Here is this extremely wounded young man, American civilian, and we're worried, like any parent would be.

[17:30:05]

TAPPER: Rachel, you obviously have much bigger concerns than just how nasty social media can be. But obviously, Twitter is a cesspool or X, I guess it's called now. And Elon Musk, quite frankly, hasn't exactly been helpful when it comes to that. And I'm just wondering, especially when it comes to anti-Semitism, not to mention anti-Muslim sentiment and all sorts of bigotry. I don't know if that came up today, because obviously, you have much bigger, serious life and death concerns having to do with your son. Did it come up?

R. GOLDBERG: It didn't come up. And to be honest with you, certainly in the last 52 days, I personally have not followed news. I haven't, you know, been --

TAPPER: I wouldn't do it.

R. GOLDBERG: -- reading newspapers, watching anything. And I also you know what, I'm a little bit old so like, I'm not a Twitter or X person --

TAPPER: Rachel, we're the exact same age.

R. GOLDBERG: -- or Instagram or I don't even have Facebook.

TAPPER: Rachel, we are the exact same age, cut it out.

R. GOLDBERG: I know. So you're also old. OK. In fact, don't throw me under the bus, Jake, because you're six months older than I am.

TAPPER: All right. When Hersh comes back, and you guys come to D.C., please allow me to throw you all a party. I am putting that check on the line right now. Throw a big party, a celebration of his return. I'm anticipating that happening. And I look forward to toasting his return with all of you when he comes back and when you come back to D.C. to visit, even though I've never met you. At least -- OK? All right, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.

R. GOLDBERG: I appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks for the time. Take care.

TAPPER: Coming up, a judge's decision today in a case that I have followed for years, a major development and some rare good news that you will see first here on The Lead. You won't want to miss it. It's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:36:22]

TAPPER: I bring you now some rare good news in our Law and Justice Lead. In October 2022, 13 months ago, I told you about C.J. Rice, a former patient of my pediatrician father, who my dad was convinced could not have committed a shooting crime in Philadelphia. C.J. was sentenced to 30 to 60 years in prison back in 2011.

Now the point of our segment and the cover story that I wrote for "The Atlantic Magazine" was not only that C.J. could not have committed the crime but that C.J. did not have adequate legal representation so much so that I and my co-author argued it was a violation of the Sixth Amendment of the U.S. Constitutions guarantee to assistance by counsel.

And today, a judge agreed and C.J. Rice could very well soon be a free man, could, could. Now the basics of the story, Rice was shot in September 2011. Those are his scars you see right there. And after he was released, he saw his pediatrician, my dad, Dr. Theodore S. Tapper. And Rice could barely walk.

And soon after that, days later, two young black men shot a separate family causing injury but thankfully no deaths and no serious injuries. Rice was picked out as one of the shooters in a photo lineup. It seemed quite questionable. And remember, my dad had just seen Rice in his office. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. THEODORE TAPPER, C.J. RICE'S FORMER PHYSICIAN: He had staples in his abdomen over approximately an eight or nine inch surgical incision from his breastbone straight down, as far as you could go. There was no way this young man five days after I saw him was running anywhere, let alone walking fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now after hiring an overworked under paid defense attorney of very questionable competence, a woman named Sandjai Weaver, Rice was convicted and sentenced to 30 to 60 years in prison for a crime in which no one was even seriously injured. Reading the trial transcript was maddening. Weaver made mistake after mistake. She has since passed away.

Now the habeas petition to release C.J. from prison was filed by an attorney named Karl Schwartz, who I think my dad hired but my dad refuses to confirm it. That's my dad. The petition specifically argued that Sandjai Weaver incompetently stipulated to evidence that provided a motive for the shootings. And she should never have stipulated that.

Karl Swartz filed that habeas petition in December 2002 -- 22 -- 2022. And the wheels of justice spin rather slowly. On September 22nd of this year, the district attorney's office which had charged C.J., they agreed with Schwartz, and then it went to a magistrate judge who on October 24th, Carol Sandra Moore Wells, she agreed and she ordered that habeas relief is warranted and then it went to a different judge. And today, U.S. District Court Judge Nitza Quinones Alejandro found that Rice's quote, trial counsel rendered ineffective assistance. And she ordered that Pennsylvania needs to decide whether to retry C.J. Rice or to free him within 190 days.

[17:40:09]

And now, the Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner, has six months to decide whether they're going to retry C.J. Rice for this crime or to free him. A statement from Krasner's office today said they were pleased with the district court order vacating his conviction, quote, this matter will now be referred to the DA Sentencing Review Committee. We expect this matter to be finally resolved within the next several months.

Remember, a division of the DA's office already ruled that C.J. did not get a fair trial to begin with. And remember, no one was even seriously wounded in the shooting to begin with. My opinion now, I'm only speaking for myself, maybe it's time for public officials in Pennsylvania to write this wrong as soon as possible.

Let me bring in Karl Schwartz and Amelia Maxfield with the Innocence Project, two of the lawyers for C.J. Rice who helped get this case to this point. Karl, congratulations.

KARL SCHWARTZ, PARTNER, WISEMAN AND SCHWARTZ: Thank you. Thank you.

TAPPER: -- I mean, amazing work, you and Amelia both. Your reaction to the judge's decision, I know you've been begging me not to say anything through all these hurdles that we got through but you let me say something today. Your reaction to a big decision by the judge?

SCHWARTZ: Well, we're overjoyed, Jake. It's bittersweet because C.J. Rice has spent 12 of what should have been the most promising years of his life, were among the most promising years of his life in custody. After a trial that was violative of the United States Constitution, in which his right to counsel was abridged by ineffective performance.

The issue that we raised the prosecution, to their great credit, agreed was that the evidence with a quasi-evidence that it allowed in was massively damaging in what otherwise would have been an overall in their words, we case, a case with one identification witness, in which and we know about the unreliability of identification testimony in which that witness on the evening of the incident --

TAPPER: Yes.

SCHWARTZ: -- indicated that she could not identify the perpetrator --

TAPPER: Even though she'd known him --

SCHWARTZ: -- my hospital --

TAPPER: Yes. Even though she'd known him for years and years and years. And Amelia, one of the points I tried to make in the article is, this is so common. And thankfully, hopefully, we will see justice in essence and C.J. will get out and be able to have some sort of life hopefully, hopefully, it's still up to Krasner in his team. But how often do you think this kind of case happens?

AMELIA MAXFIELD, SENIOR STAFF ATTORNEY, PENNSYLVANIA INNOCENCE PROJECT: Unfortunately, it's all too common, Jake. Wrongful convictions can be contributed to a number of causes, and the leading cause is eyewitness misidentification. And effective assistance of counsel has been estimated to contribute to one in five exonerations in this country, which is a pretty shocking statistic. And that's only speaks to cases where someone is exonerated.

TAPPER: Yes, Amelia, the work you do at the Innocence Project is so, so important. Karl, you know that Tappers are not patient people. And I inherited that from my father. And --

SCHWARTZ: Neither you are.

TAPPER: No, neither of us. Neither of us are patient. We didn't get that gene. But let me ask you. He's going to be laid out, right? I mean, like he's going to be laid out, like the district attorney's office has already ruled that he didn't get a fair trial. But the DA is -- like this whole procedure now that we're going to have to go through and it's going to take -- they have six months. And it's probably going to take at least one to three. Why don't they just let them out, like they've already acknowledged.

SCHWARTZ: Jake, it is a reasonable procedure and as anxious as I am to have C.J. released and he should be released yesterday. This prosecutor's office is different than a lot of them in this country. They truly seek justice. The position I took on this case was the right position, and many other prosecutors office wouldn't have. And that kind of blind, you know, blind adherence to a conviction to a bad conviction breeds disrespect for the law.

This office operates differently and I'm not here as a cheerleader for the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office. Lord knows I take positions against them every day. But they genuinely tried to do the right thing and it inspires respect for the law. It truly does. And it's a different world when that's the case.

[17:45:09]

TAPPER: Credit words do, I hear you. Credit words do because most prosecutors as long, you know, they stick by a conviction even they don't even want to look at it. So I hear you, I hear you. Karl Schwartz, Amelia Maxfield, thanks to both of you. And we will keep you updated, viewers, when C.J. gets out. You better believe, I'm going to be there with five cameras. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, former President Donald Trump continues to fight against a gag order in his New York civil fraud trial telling an appeals court today that criticizing the judge is his first amendment rights. The judge in that case, Arthur Engoron, first imposed the gag order to prevent Trump from making any statements about him and his court staff specifically as clerk after Trump posted a baseless social media allegation involving the judge's principal law clerk. Trump's team today arguing Trump has never threatened the judge or his principal law clerk and can't be held responsible for actions taken by others. But others did take action, as they almost always do.

[17:50:15]

Trump's remarks resulted in hundreds of threats and smears against the judge in his clerk, a court officer captain signed a sworn statement saying that the threats are quote, considered to be serious and credible and not hypothetical or speculative. The court filing transcribed multiple voicemails left on Judge Engoron's and phone. We want to show you just two examples, a warning you might find some of it disturbing, of course, some of you might like it based on my social media these days.

One voicemail said quote, filthy little Jews, and that's you, and I hate that word. And I hate putting people under group but you are filthy little Jews. I mean, honestly, you should be assassinated and, unquote. Another said, quote, dirty Jews, and I love Jewish people. But there's dirty Jews like you. You guys want to make it all about identity and, you know what, what dirty Jews and stupid? Go die. I hope you all die, unquote.

Let's talk about this. So Jonah, Trump's team today argued his threats to the judge and his law clerk do not justify a gag order. I know you're a first amendment guy. But what do you think?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. So Trump's lawyers argue that this is unprecedented. And they're right. It would be unprecedented, do a gag order, it also be unprecedented for guy with 91 indictments or what charges against him still running for president and saying these kinds of things, never mind a former president saying these kinds of things about a judge.

So it's a great example of how hard cases make for bad law. I think a lot of this is just sort of a preamble to the criminal stuff where he has to try this stuff and quarter of opinion and intimidate witnesses and all that. I don't think there are any great answers here, though.

TAPPER: Nayyera, separately, the D.C. Appeals Court could rule and anytime on a gag order on Trump's election subversion trial. Let's say that one or both of these gag orders are imposed against the former president, we're less than 50 days away from the Iowa caucus. You know, how will those headlines play with voters, the idea that he has, you know, gag orders against him?

NAYYERA HAQ, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF CABINET AFFAIRS, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Oh, yes, it such a vast lead in the Republican primary. And the Republican Party right now is the party of obstruction, the party of the lack of democracy and, you know, my freedom versus your so it plays perfectly well with those primary voters. But it does do two things to our democracy. It turns away people from actively participating, whether as voters or to become election officials or to become judges, public service becomes a danger when candidates like Trump are allowed to get away with this. And it also erodes the credibility of our democracy, when justice is not swift, when a bureaucracy is used to stop the wheels of justice from holding the President accountable. And we all know that no one else would be able to get away with what President Trump has been saying or in flouting the rule of law.

TAPPER: Well, the other thing is it works, right, I mean, it works. And he knows it works. And this --

J. GOLDBERG: And then it's his best option given the reality of a lot of these cases.

TAPPER: So this book, that McKay Coppins wrote about Romney, that one Republican Congressman reportedly told Romney, he wanted to vote to impeach Trump, about January 6th, but he declined, quote, out of fear for his family's safety. Senate leader was also discouraged from voting to convict for the reasons of personal safety. I mean, it's not that -- I mean, he knows what he's doing.

HAQ: And we want people to be leaders, but we're not definitely giving them the protection or the safety of security of support. And that's what Trump takes advantage of time and time again, is being the bully that no one is properly challenging.

J. GOLDBERG: Yes, I mean, the fundamental problem for six years now take away the threat stuff and all that is that Trump's superpower is shamelessness. He does not care about the norms. He does not care about tradition. He does not care about decorum. He cares about weaponizing, anything that was useful for him to weaponize.

And so I don't blame some of these senators. And we mentioned, if you were hanging around on January 6th, and you had that memory fresh in your mind, hang Mike Pence and, you know, who knows what kind of voicemails he got, I can see people sort of buckling and chickening out about voting to impeach and remove Trump. I think it was almost textbook cowardly, but I can also understand it.

TAPPER: Then there's then there's other lessons from January 6th on -- Utah's other Republican Senator Mike Lee, a few days ago, there were like, you know, Speaker Johnson released some of these other images from January 6th, and there was a guy who took out a vape. And I think there were like people saying, oh, that's a badge and it shows how some of the rioters were actually undercover feds. And Mike Lee was suggesting it was a badge and people were like, no, it's not. It's a vape.

J. GOLDBERG: Yes, Mike Lee is on a bit of a journey these days. He's sort of -- he's kind of been red pilled by Trump world in a way that I find really disappointing and shocking.

HAQ: And we're seeing a record number of resignations from Congress of people not looking to run for office again, either because the money it costs too much, or because of this political environment. So something needs to change.

[17:55:01]

TAPPER: But then there was also "Fox" had that wrong information about what happened on the Rainbow Bridge and then Bennie Thompson quoted "Fox" and then Ted Cruz quoted Bennie Johnson this turducken of false information. And nobody even takes it down from Twitter.

HAQ: Well, you'd have to have regulations in place and people in power who understood how these platforms work.

TAPPER: What's not -- you don't --

J. GOLDBERG: Let's not disparage the noble turducken.

TAPPER: You don't need regulations. You just need, you mentioned it before, shame.

J. GOLDBERG: Yes.

TAPPER: And anyway, it's missing. Good to see you guys. Thank you so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: The casket carrying the remains of former First Lady Rosalynn Carter has arrived in Atlanta, Georgia. The former First Lady will lie in repose for the rest of the day. And tomorrow, former President Jimmy Carter is expected to attend a private tribute service to her which will be televised. President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden will attend as well former President Bill Clinton, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and former First Lady's Laura Bush, Michelle Obama, and Melania Trump. Our coverage of Rosalynn Carter's memorial service will start tomorrow at noon Eastern. I will be anchoring that.

[18:00:27]

Our coverage continues now with Wolf Blitzer, who is in the Situation Room live from Tel Aviv. I'll see you tomorrow at noon Eastern.