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New Jurors Could Be Seated Soon; Two New Jurors Selected, Total Now Back To Seven; Speaker Mike Johnson Will Not Change Motion To Vacate; Twelve Jurors Now Seated For Donald Trump Trial. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 18, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: He said that he has a feeling that the insurance company has probably has going to have few questions about this claim. But Jason Kelce, incredible stuff. As if we need any more reason for chili to give us indigestion, right?
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: I know, it just -- is that really going through -- combing through it, it's just kind of --
(CROSSTALK)
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yes, delicious, appetizing.
DEAN: Well --
SANCHEZ: Coy Wire, great to see you as always, my friend. I know you'll be listening at midnight to the dead --
(CROSSTALK)
WIRE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Sad poets department -- what's the name of it?
DEAN: The tortured poet.
SANCHEZ: Tortured -- sorry. I'm a (INAUDIBLE) fan, I promise.
DEAN: We'll them on -- we'll get them on message. Don't worry.
WIRE: Roll the break.
SANCHEZ: Coy, thank you so much.
"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.
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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Jury selection in Trump's hush money case has taken a dramatic turn. THE LEAD starts right now. The shocking actions that led to two jurors suddenly dismissed in unusual occurrence. What this might mean for opening statements which the judge had thought could start as soon as Monday.
Plus, name calling and fresh threats. House Speaker Johnson was physically cornered on the House floor, pinned against the wall by hard-right Republicans, demanding that he keep his hands off the rule that as of right now allows just one member of Congress to force a vote to remove him as Speaker.
The House adjourned today before anybody could make a move. We'll tell you all about it.
And arrests at Columbia University protests in New York City, just one day after that school's president testified before Congress about anti-Semitism on campus. We're going to go to Columbia, live.
Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. And we start today in our law injustice lead with a dramatic day in the courtroom during the third day of Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial.
Two jurors who had been seated were excused from the panel -- summarily dismissed. It's very unusual. One asked to be removed after some members of the news media, not CNN, reported so many details about her. She was afraid she was going to be outed.
The other was kicked off after prosecutors say they found evidence of a prior arrest of someone by the same name. Unclear if it's the same person. That leaves five jurors on the panel. We started with seven.
Right now, courts ongoing, lawyers from both sides are questioning more potential jurors. We're waiting to see if any new ones will be seated by the end of the court today. They need 12 jurors and six alternates' total.
We're going to bring you that update as it happens. But back to those jurors who are no longer there. The first, a woman, juror number two, an oncology nurse. She said she could no longer be considered impartial, because she feared too much of her identity had been revealed. Some news media outlets not CNN, reported the hospital where she worked. After juror number two got several messages from friends and family asking if she was on the jury, based on those details reported in some media outlets. Well, she grew fearful.
The second juror dismissed, a man who was juror number four. He runs an I.T. business for training and consultant. Now, prosecutors allege that they found evidence of a prior arrest of someone by the same name, though he was officially removed in private. So, it's unclear as of now if that was the exact reason he was dismissed.
We're going to start a recording today was seen as Paula Reid, who has been tracking jury selection today. And Paula, we started the day with 96 prospective jurors, half was -- were dismissed. They said they could not be impartial.
Where does jury selection stand as of now? PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Any minute, we could get the newest juror seated in this case. Now, this is the second group of 100 potential jurors that they've had to walk through. And we've seen some similarities between the first group and the second group, like you said, over half of them were dismissed because they said they could not be impartial.
Nine others had to be dismissed for other various reasons, scheduling conflicts, other reasons they couldn't serve. And then, it was interesting to see world politics interfere here, because there was one potential juror who said he was born and raised in Italy. And he said that he associates Trump with former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who, of course, face charges for corruption, fraud, and sex crimes. And he said he just didn't think he could be fair or impartial. Also, certainly not someone that the defense team would want on there.
So, as we speak right now, they are still working through the final stages of this group. Right now, they are asking the judge to dismiss some of these jurors for cause, and then both sides will have the chance to use those precious four strikes that each have left.
TAPPER: I mentioned the two jurors that the judge dismissed today. Tell me more about that.
REID: Jake, this just speaks to the difficulty of this task, right? We thought we had seven jurors. And then, you have these unexpected developments. For example, that first juror, she expressed concerns about her ability to be fair. She told the court, "Aspects of my identity have already been out there in the public. Yesterday alone, I had friends, colleagues and my family push things to my phone questioning my identity as a juror."
I mean, you can imagine how concerning and frightening that would be for someone if she was dismissed. And then, you had this other juror who prosecutors moved to dismiss because they found someone with the same name who had a prior arrest. Now, they will continue to go through this process again and again.
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That initial group of 100, yielded a total of five jurors, we'll see how many we get out of the second panel.
And just about 10-15 minutes ago, they swore in the third panel, who will come in tomorrow at 11:30, and they'll start all over again.
TAPPER: So, Jamie, how unusual is it for two jurors to be dismissed on day three of this process?
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as Paula said, you know, it's very unusual. But nothing is normal about this case. And I would say also, there is the phrase, no good deed goes unpunished.
Judge Merchan was trying to have as much transparency as he could, in this case. So, unlike what happened in the E. Jean Carroll case, where a lot was done in writing, or behind closed doors, he has had a lot of the jurors speak in public, so, everybody heard this.
The result is that too much was reported. And therefore, this one juror felt intimidated by it. But let's just remind everyone what the reason is. The reason is because the defendant is Donald Trump.
TAPPER: Yes.
GANGEL: And because of his supporters,
TAPPER: So, Elliot, the judge is walking a tightrope here.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
TAPPER: Trying to be transparent, but at the same time, if you allow members of the media, especially certain outlets, to know a whole bunch of identifying characteristics --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: There -- they might not show discretion.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
TAPPER: And like this oncology nurse heard the place that she works was reported.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: That helps people narrow it down.
WILLIAMS: It does. And this is a remarkable conversation to have the week after the death of O.J. Simpson, where in the old days, the trial of the century when it happened, someone could choose to go public after being a juror, and write a book and go on T.V. or go on 2020, or whatever.
Now, merely by being associated with a high-profile event, your name, your family, your residence, all the things you do about your life can be exposed. And that's very intimidating and very frightening for many people.
And frankly, Jake, this is going to keep coming up over the course of this trial, where even if the judge tries to restrict the amount of information that's been public about these people, there is still so much curiosity in the in the public right now, and among certain members of media, that I think more information is going to keep leaking out if he doesn't control it.
REID: Yes.
TAPPER: So, well, Paula, I mean, how worried are people that this is going -- this is just going to be setting the tone for kind of a ravenous press corps or even more so, political operatives, who want to get to these people? REID: It has to be incredibly concerning for anyone in that potential juror pool. When I saw this come through this morning, I said, I totally get it. Anyone who is been in any way, in the Trump orbit, John, his ire knows what that means for you, for your family. We're professionals, many of us are used to this.
But to a lay person, someone who's an oncology nurse focused on that work to have this in the back of your mind, concerned not only for yourself, but for your family. I 100 percent understand why this is a concern.
Now, prior to all this happening and talking to sources on both sides, there was a concern, not just the safety aspect, but if they would be able to find 12 jurors and six alternates and how long that would take.
And what we've seen over the past 24 hours, you see just how difficult this is, even when you think you have a juror seated, you have a lot of additional layers here that you don't have another cases.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I'm sorry. I was going to say call me a cynic. I -- this notion of getting to trial on a Monday, after four days of jury selection in a trial like this seemed preposterous, and it has to me since the beginning.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Well, they were on track, though.
WILLIAMS: They were, but --
REID: Right.
TAPPER: They were --
WILLIAMS: But where are we now?
TAPPER: Right.
So, let me ask you. So, Trump is under a gag order in this case. He is prohibited from "making" or directing others to make public statements about any prospective juror or any juror in this criminal proceeding among other people who isn't allowed to talk about.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: Trump posted this quote from Fox's Jesse Watters on Truth Social last night. It's Jesse Watters, saying, "They are catching undercover liberal activists lying to the judge in order to get on the Trump jury."
Is that a violation? WILLIAMS: It's reprehensible. And the judge is going to have to determine whether it's a violation. It steps really close to that line.
TAPPER: No specific jurors mentioned.
WILLIAMS: No specific jurors, but perspective jurors.
TAPPER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And now, was it people who'd already been released? Or was it people who were in the pool? Now, the question is, what does the judge do with it?
And the judge can't just slap cuffs on the former president and cart him off to jail. It's got to have a hearing, which is already going to be in another five days. He's letting this stay out there for a few days.
Now, you know, do you find him, do you figure out a way to get him behind bars? It's all very complicated under New York law. But it's bad conduct. And it is disparaging jurors.
TAPPER: Well, what do you make of it, Jamie?
GANGEL: Look, if past is prologue, Donald Trump is going to continue to push the envelope. We have seen that before. In another case, I think it was Judge Engoron, who had to find him.
So, what can the judge do? He can admonish him. He can fine him.
[16:10:00]
The prosecutors, I believe, have asked for a thousand dollars an incident.
I am not sure that is going to dissuade Donald Trump from continuing to do it. He can incarcerate him. Does the judge want to do that? No, he doesn't. But I think the reality is, Trump is going to do this over and over.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And you have to be really careful here, because it's not just the judge being feckless, and choosing not to lock them up behind bars. New York law has pretty complicated provisions as to what the judge has to do before he does that. And it might require, frankly, a separate criminal proceeding, if you're going to call him on what's called the criminal contempt (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Right. And Paula, what is -- I mean, Jesse Watters, saying, that they are catching undercover liberal activists lying to the judge in order to get on the Trump jury. What's that claim about? You know --
REID: I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about. (CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Yes.
REID: But I do think it's different when you perpetuate these kinds of falsehoods about the jury. And these are lay people doing their civic duty.
TAPPER: Right.
REID: If you put these kinds of falsehoods, you know, put this kind of target on them. That undermines the entire system. That is very different than taking shots at Michael Cohen, or Stormy Daniels, who are covered under the gag order. But we're also out there talking about Trump very publicly. This is something of a different magnitude.
TAPPER: Yes, well, I mean, it does degree rely to a bit on the degree of decency, not just by the defendant, but also by people in the media who are supportive of defendant, not to go after juror.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
REID: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And to underscore the point, and even in how gag orders are crafted, notice that they often exempt the judge, often exempt the prosecutor. But refer to individual citizens who are part -- who did not choose to be part of this, they literally, by virtue of being having a driver's license, got a letter in the mail, and are being brought into court and being pulled into this maelstrom of nonsense from the former president. It is dangerous to people and it also hurts the systems we're saying, Jake.
TAPPER: Yes, but I mean, just look at the way that Trump's friends in the social media world and also the media world have behaved in previous -- in previous situations. The whistleblower at the White House who, you know, I mean, even when told don't name this person, you're going to put his or her life at risk, they have named them.
WILLIAMS: And without getting all histrionic about putting people's lives at risk, this undermines the integrity of the system. Whether you like it or not, you are a defendant in this system and are entitled to a fair trial. You are number one getting in the way of your own ability to get a fair trial, but also undermines a system that serves all of us, and not to.
GANGEL: I just add, there are a couple of words we've heard Donald Trump use retribution.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GANGEL: We've heard his followers say, hang Mike Pence. I mean, this is not a normal situation. And Paula has (INAUDIBLE)
TAPPER: Oh, Paula has a news --
(CROSSTALK)
REID: I would always --
GANGEL: That's OK.
REID: -- of the great Jamie Gangel for breaking news. But our colleagues inside the court are reporting that two more jurors have been chosen.
So, we're basically where we started. We now have seven.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: We know anything about these two?
REID: We don't have any specific details that are reportable. And as you mentioned, at the outset, we did not make the mistakes, right? To make this this juror who had to leave the case, so, fearful for her life, and we're being very careful to vet the information before we share it, because we -- you know, we get all kinds of information from inside the court, but we're going to be very careful about the descriptors that we use. So, I'm going to wait for our bosses to clear that before I say anything.
TAPPER: Absolutely.
REID: But two more jurors.
TAPPER: All right. Well, we're back to seven. Everyone, stay with me. We are standing by for court to adjourn for the day. CNN's Kara Scannell is inside the courthouse. We'll look for her updates as this jury selection process unfolds in this dramatic fashion, as everything related to Donald Trump does -- dramatic fashion.
Plus, the physical confrontation today, involving House Republicans and Speaker Mike Johnson. And I have a high-profile guest coming up. Who's probably watching it all with popcorn. Stay with us.
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TAPPER: And we're back with "BREAKING NEWS" in our law, and justice lead. Two more jurors have just been seated in Donald Trump's trial in New York. That brings us back to seven after the two who had just been dismissed.
There are just a few more minutes left in the scheduled court day on this day three of jury selection, and my panel is back with me.
Paula Reid, jury selection is still ongoing right now both sides, using their strikes to remove possible jurors, who have bias one way or the other from being seated. Explain what that means, the strikes.
REID: So, we are right now. We are down to this very small group over the course of the day that whittle down this group of approximately 100 to just a few dozen. And here, either side can argue to have someone removed for cause, for some reason, they believe that they just can't be impartial, or some of the reason there is a cause to remove them before they use these precious strikes. Each side now has four, there are 10 strikes remaining.
So, they can just ask them to be removed and not give a reason. But it's fascinating right now, for example, the defense attorneys are pointing to one woman who they want removed for cause. They are specifically referencing her social media posts from 2020, where she refers to Trump using a lot of very negative language, including calling him racist and sexist.
Now, there are some specific quotes that they have pulled from her social media posts that if you read them, you're like, yes, I can see why you wouldn't -- jury. But we're not going to quote those verbatim, because we again, we want to try to protect these people who are showing up to do their civic duty.
TAPPER: Yes.
REID: But this is the process that they are going to go through until they either see a juror, strike them for whatever reason, they so choose, or have them removed by the judge for cost.
TAPPER: So, Elliot, let me just ask you.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: Let's take an opposite example. OK? And this one is fictitious. Let's say somebody showed up wearing a red MAGA hat.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: For jury selection.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: He -- that person wouldn't just be automatically dismissed?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely not. Because if they can say to the person, look, I have political beliefs. However, I can set my beliefs aside, and judge whoever the defendant is fairly in the in -- yes, in the eyes. And as instructed by you, Your Honor, that person can legally serve on the jury.
Now, a prosecutor with in this case would likely strike that person.
TAPPER: Right.
WILLIAMS: But they are not legally prohibited.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: But they would have to use one of their peremptory challenges.
WILLIAMS: You would have to use your peremptory challenge, because there isn't a legal bar to that person serving on the jury. They just have political views that are aligned with the defendant. But that doesn't mean that they can't be fair.
[16:20:04]
TAPPER: So, Jamie, during jury questioning this afternoon, the prosecutor asked potential jurors if they will be able to look at Donald Trump and say, guilty, if they prove the case.
The prosecutors went through each juror, one by one to answer will you be able to do it? And Trump is watching. You know, this is a -- this is a -- an intimidating guy to a lot of people. That's a task for jurors.
GANGEL: It is. I need to go sideways for one second as the daughter of a judge, they would have to take off the hat.
WILLIAMS: Yes. No, no. No, no.
GANGEL: Before they came --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Pardon me. Pardon me. Yes, I should have --
GANGEL: Find your -- find your personal --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Assume -- OK, a tattoo. I mean, a tattoo on his forehead. Does it make it accurate.
WILLIAMS: Right. Right, you know, it's the hypothetical was strange, but yes, no, you're absolutely right.
GANGEL: Look, when jurors are affected by defendants, they are always watching defendants. And Donald Trump, when he is sitting there, there is no question, it's going to have a huge impact on the juror.
TAPPER: Yes.
GANGEL: I think that this question is fascinating. I've actually been on a jury panel where they asked in the different cases, similar question, it was a capital murder trial. Can you make a decision? And they pulled all the prospective jurors and said, say out loud whether or not.
So, this is sort of where it comes together, and a juror or prospective juror is forced to look Donald Trump in the eye. I would also say that Trump's impact on juror will also have to do with his behavior.
TAPPER: Yes.
GANGEL: And whether or not he can behave himself. If he is acting out or speaking out the way he did the other day, that has an impact. If he nods off to sleep, that has an impact. Jurors are human.
WILLIAMS: I go even a little bit further and say that the prosecutors know what they are doing and are deliberately referring to him as the defendant. We were actually trained, don't refer to a defendant by their name, call them the defendant, so that the jury sees that this person is the accused in the eyes of the state.
And I think the prosecutors there are trying to nudge, a little subliminal messaging to those jurors to nudge this that they think this guy is guilty.
TAPPER: All right. Thanks, one and all. Just 24 hours ago, here in THE LEAD, Speaker Mike Johnson told me he would let the chips fall where they may, when it comes to GOP threats to kick him out of his leadership position. I wonder how he feels now after literally getting pinned against a wall today on the House floor, according to some accounts.
We're going to go to Capitol Hill next where House drama does not even begin to explain it. Stay with us.
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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): -- the Senate's action. The Senate's action they have just taken on --
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TAPPER: In our "POLITICS LEAD", the House adjourn for the day, but what a day it was? Chaotic indeed.
Just one day after Speaker Mike Johnson told me this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: And I'm focused on doing my job. Look, when you do the right thing, you let the chips fall where they may. I mean, that's how I -- that's my life philosophy and that's how I govern here every single day. I've got to stay focused on that every day and not all the drama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: But tough to avoid the drama when there are so many Thespians on the House floor. A number of them, hard -- group of hardline Republicans surrounded the Speaker, in a tense exchange over a proposed rule change being floated by other Republicans. The rule change would raise the threshold required to trigger the procedure to oust a Speaker. Right now, it only requires one person for what is called a motion to vacate.
CNN's Manu Raju is live for us on Capitol. Manu, moments ago, Speaker Johnson just announced that he is not going to change the rule. What exactly is going on here?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he didn't have the votes to do that. In fact, Johnson had been weighing whether or not to include in that first procedural vote to take up the larger foreign aid package that has called this -- causes a vote on the right, to include that procedural rule changes to the motion to vacate, to make it harder to oust the sitting Speaker.
That cause outrage on the far right. And the House floor earlier today, several members, including, Congressman Matt Gaetz engaged in a tense exchange with the Speaker of House.
Gaetz later told me that Johnson would not commit at that moment to -- of keeping the existing rules. Ultimately, Johnson just announced moments ago that he would keep the existing rules, allowing one member to call for such a vote.
He said in a -- in a tweet, "Recently, many members have encouraged me to endorse a new rule to raise this threshold. While I understand the importance of that idea, any rule change requires a majority of the full House, which we do not have."
And indeed, many members were concerned that the handful of members on the hard ride have essentially stymie the Republican agenda, thrown this chamber into a state of chaos in the aftermath of the ouster of Kevin McCarthy. But, as you see there, Johnson keeping this rule.
Now, at the same time, Johnson facing heat from his right over his decision not to include in this foreign aid package that includes aid Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan, not including border security measures. And that's why a lot of members of his own conference say they plan to vote against this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. ELI CRANE (R-AZ): And I think we have an integrity problem when we tell the American people that the border is the hill to die on. Border, border, border. And then, we see more of status quo, more of the same in Washington, D.C.
REP. NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS (R-NY): The Speaker is been giving us lip service since he became the Speaker saying that we were going to combine Ukraine and the border. And I don't believe that the Speaker couldn't extract at least something. And so, I think it's a mis opportunity.
RAJU: Why aren't Democrats taking a position on whether to save my Johnson's job?
REP. KATHERINE CLARK (D-MA): We are waiting to see if he is going to allow us to save our global security and make sure that America has its security.
[16:30:07]
We've been waiting months for this moment and this is really a point in history, where it is long past time that Mike Johnson in the House GOP.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And that last comment comes with a number two Democrat, Katherine Clark making clear that Democrats have not yet decided as a fully as the conference whether or not to come to Johnson's aid if in fact that vote to oust him does take place.
So, a lot of calculations going on. Democrats want to use that as leverage, perhaps extract some more concessions as the -- in the days ahead here, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Manu, you spoke with Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene today. She's the one leading the charge to get rid of speaker Johnson and she's saying when exactly she's going to force this vote?
RAJU: She still is not saying that, Jake. In fact, she was one of the members who are outraged over the potential the rules change to make it harder for to call for such a vote. So, she had suggested perhaps she could do it before that rule change would move ahead.
But now that Johnson is not actually going to push forward on that rules change. We'll see how Greene decides to move forward. She does say she has more support for this cause but Democrats come to Johnson's defense he could stay in this in his position with bipartisan support.
TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju. Thanks so much.
Joining us now to discuss, Congressman Anthony D'Esposito, he's a Republican representing New York's Fourth Congressional District. He's a member of the House Homeland Security Committee, used to be a police officer.
Congressman, thanks so much for joining us who you posted on Twitter now known as X yesterday, quote -- I'm sorry, you wrote that, the right thing at the right time for the right reasons, regardless of who's watching. I'm with you, Speaker Johnson.
Does that mean in addition to backing him as speaker that you're also going to be voting in support of these foreign aid packages for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan?
REP. ANTHONY D'ESPOSITO (R-NY): Yes, I will. I think that the time has come, the world is watching. And I think that history will be very good to Mike Johnson in this -- in the decision that he made.
I know that it's a tough decision. The fact is, is that his speakership is being threatened, but I think he's doing like I said in my tweet, the right thing for the right reasons.
TAPPER: Today, speaker Johnson said he is not going to go along with a rule change that right now it allows one person to bring a motion to vacate. Some people want to make it a higher threshold. What's your reaction? And did you see this confrontation on the House floor?
D'ESPOSITO: I did not see the confrontation on the House floor. But it is expected. I mean, people are emotional, people are upset that there is a possibility that for the second time in the 118 Congress, we will be facing a motion to vacate.
And I agree with many of my colleagues and that the rule needs to be changed. In fact, I spoke to a reporter walking off the floor earlier today. And she told me that even former Speaker Pelosi agreed that the rule needs to be changed.
So, if you have people from the Republican side of the the aisle and people like us, former Speaker Pelosi agreeing, I think that the decision is clear. And there will be a letter going out very shortly, I believe from the main street caucus, asking speaker Johnson to consider really take into consideration changing that rule.
The fact that we have the ability to have one person hold our conference, and quite frankly, this institution hostage needs to change.
TAPPER: Reportedly, that some of these members basically had the speaker, you know, all but pinned against the wall. I don't know what you heard, but do you think it sounds like they went too far?
D'ESPOSITO: Like I said, I think that emotions are running high, people are very upset. Anytime you have -- you have the speaker corner is never a good idea. But I think that we all need to take a breath and realize that we are all here for the same reasons. And that's for the best interests of the United States of America.
But I do believe that we need to sit down at his conference and realize that the world is watching. And this is going to be a defining moment in history. And I would agree that, you know, when people look back on today and the -- and the days that are ahead in the history books, they should be saluting Mike Johnson for the decision that he made. And I think that members do need to really think about the fact that there are many countries that need our help.
And yes, do we need to secure the border? Absolutely. And that's why back in May we -- the House sent HR2 over to the Senate, but I think we should have the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. There's no reason as to why we cannot provide aid to our allies as well as work to secure our border.
TAPPER: So, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene is continuing to stand by her threat to oust speaker Johnson. She posted on Twitter, "I filed them to vacate because Johnson has become the Democrat Speaker of the House and with his actions, he's proving to everyone I was right."
Do you -- do you think that she speaks for more than just a handful of members of Congress and I should also ask, you've said that you think that there should be repercussions for individuals who stand in the way of the wheel of the Republican conference. She's doing that. Do you think she should face repercussions and which repercussions? [16:35:15]
D'ESPOSITO: Well, the comments that I made today about repercussions was specifically to those members on the Rules Committee, who, you know, the Rules Committee historically has been a place where they go by the thought process of the conference, and especially the Speaker of the House.
And the fact that we have members of the rules committee that are not putting forth the thoughts of the conference, I believe that's a problem and that needs to be taken care of. And I've made that very clear to the speaker, as well as many other members.
Marjorie Taylor Greene, I respect her. I know that she works hard to represent her district. In this situation, we disagree. I believe that Mike Johnson is doing the right thing for the country. We are in a democracy, we're in a divided government. And that's what democracy is all about.
We need to understand that we are not going to get everything that we want in these packages, but we need to work together for the best interests of the American people.
And again, like I said, before, we should be able to walk through these halls of Congress and chew gum at the same time, there is no reason why we can't put our best foot forward, get these packages across the floor and sent over to the Senate and continue to work on legislation just like HR2 that's been sitting over in the Senate for months now.
TAPPER: OK, Congressman Anthony D'esposito of New York, thanks so much. We have more breaking news in Donald Trump's trial. Let's bring back CNN's Paula Reid. Paula, what's the latest?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: A very significant development, Jake, we now have a jury that has been seated in the trial of former President Donald Trump up in Manhattan that the judge has announced that all 12 jurors have been seated. He said, "We have our jury. Now let's start to pick our alternates, they now need to move forward with the process of selecting six alternate jurors in case there's any reason that one of those 12 cannot continue their service."
Now, this is a significant development because I was with you just a short time ago, Jake, and we only had five jurors, then we had seven. Now they have all 12, both sides, used all of their preemptory strikes, these are strikes that they can use to have someone removed without giving a reason.
Now, the only reason they could move remove someone was for cause but we have the full -- the full jury. Now they'll move on to try to select a six alternates either from the remaining people who still are in the courtroom or tomorrow at 11:30, they will get a fresh panel of approximately, a hundred new potential jurors and they'd go through this whole process again. TAPPER: That's pretty big there, right? I mean, they had seven, then they lost two win in a stunning series of events. So, then they had to find seven more. And I'm doing my math right. Yes, I do. And they got them?
REID: Yes, they did. Now one thing that moves this along a lot faster is when both sides run out of strikes, right, they have no reason to remove someone if they cannot get them removed for cause, which they tried to do with several other potential jurors here.
But this is a very significant development things here moving slowly, then quickly, then slowly again, but as we saw this morning, they had seven jurors seated two days ago. And then this morning, they came in and did lost two of them.
So, it's an extraordinary case, things can certainly change. But right now, the judge has announced they have their jury and they're moving on to try to select those six alternates. It's unclear if they're going to be able to do that this afternoon, or if this will continue until tomorrow.
Now tomorrow, they're going to start around 11:30. And they'll have that new group, again, Jake, it'll be approximately a hundred people. And if they have to move into that new group, they'll go through the same process that we've already seen, twice. Now you have a hundred people you ask anyone first and foremost if there's anyone who cannot serve and be impartial in this trial.
And it's been interesting in the other two groups that we've seen so far, over half of the jurors are exactly half of the jurors in one group said they could not be impartial. And it's notable that the Trump defense team said that they really wanted to get that specific statistic, they didn't want everyone who is removed for cause to be lumped into one group, they wanted to know specifically, how many people said they couldn't even be impartial.
Why is that important, Jake? Because that is an issue that the Trump team will inevitably bring up on appeal. They will say this is why we wanted to move the venue. Over half the people said they couldn't even be impartial.
So, that's something we're watching very closely. There are other reasons that people can be struck for cause or be removed before they move on to the jury questionnaire, and then this process where they will have additional strikes to select these alternates. Let's see how far in the alternate selection they get in the next few minutes.
TAPPER: Do we know anything about these jurors that have been seated seven of them and obviously, we want to make sure that as we report the information we know we don't want it to be too identifying because some other media outlets reporting too much information about one of the jurors resulted in the fact that the -- that that juror could not be seated.
[16:40:02] REID: So, Jake, I want to say two things. First of all, we already have an alternate who has been seated in the past few minutes. And I want to add in terms of these additional details about the jurors that have been seated, I'm going to use extreme caution before sharing any of the details because our wonderful reporting team that's inside the courtroom up there in Manhattan, providing us these details. And our bosses, we're vetting this information to make sure that we're not outing anyone or identifying anyone who's just showed up to do their civic duty.
So, I'm going to hold off on sharing any identifying details until we agree what is significant in the interest of transparency in this process, but won't identify or endanger anyone.
But I think it's notable that since I was up there with you about half an hour ago, we have seated seven additional jurors, and now they have one alternate, so they need to choose five additional alternates.
TAPPER: And I have here with me in studio, Jamie Gangel and Elliot Williams.
And Elliot, you were just saying a few minutes ago, you're scoffing at the idea that they could come up with a jury so that they could actually begin opening arguments on Monday, and you may still be proven correct. And your skepticism is certainly warranted, given the fact that two jurors had to be dismissed today for other reasons. But here we have seven more jurors added to -- added to the panel here. Is that surprising to you?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is surprising to me. Your Honor, I would like to eat a plate of crow for my appetizer. It is surprising because of all of the factors we've been talking about in this case. And as we saw, we thought we had a bunch of jurors today and lost some of them. There's going to continue to be a lot of publicity around the trial, and they still have to get five more people that would still -- there would be a lot to happen tomorrow, which will be the one day, you know, the next but it could -- but it could happen. So, we will see.
TAPPER: Yes, let me go to Kara Scannell who is outside the courtroom right now in Manhattan. Kara, you've been in court as this has all developed. Tell us what you've seen.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, quite a reversal from where we started the day where those two jurors were excused. Now we have a full jury that is comprised of seven men and five women, a mix of people in finance. We have speech therapists and physical therapists. Just a mix of Manhattanites. That's the New Yorkers who will judge Trump.
They are continuing to go through the jury now to select the alternates. It is important to note that this all happened very quickly in just the last half an hour. So, where we ticked through these, both sides used up all of their peremptory challenges, and we finished seating this jury. Now they're doing the alternates, they will each side will each have one peremptory challenge. And we still -- we have jurors that are still there in in the box. But they did ask and they did swear in another panel of 96. They will return tomorrow around 11:30 if they do not find the remaining jurors, the remaining five or so alternates, as we get toward the end of the court day to day.
But we do now have a jury seated in this case, the judge saying we have our jury, let's do the alternate. So, this is now moving swiftly again. It seemed like we had a setback this morning, but things have picked up. It still seems possible there could be opening statements in this case as soon as Monday.
TAPPER: Fascinating. Thank you so much, Kara Scannell. Jamie Gangel, the wheels of justice are turning swiftly in the last few hours, we started the show, there were only five jurors, two of them had been summarily dismissed for various reasons. They have since seated seven more jurors, they have a full 12 person jury and one alternate, they only have five more alternates to go, which seems like something that is an eminently possible.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Not to be the opposite of Elliot there. I was actually very optimistic about this. I think at 4:31, I texted someone, we're going to have a jury by the end of the day, tomorrow, but it's not because I'm so wise and trouble could happen. It's really because of Judge Merchan.
He has wanted to keep this moving. He -- judges don't like once they start in paneling jurors, they don't want them sitting there. They are respectful of their time.
So, once those first jurors were impaneled, I really expected he would keep it going. He stayed late one evening, I was told he might stay late this evening.
So, you know, barring more trouble with jurors the way we had overnight. I really think we will have opening statements Monday morning. Otherwise, I'm losing a bet.
TAPPER: So, may I posit another theory as to why I think this might be happening so quickly?
GANGEL: Yes.
TAPPER: Donald Trump is not Cheerios. Cheerios, you know, some people like him, some people -- you know, everybody can eat them. But Donald Trump around is very, very passionate feelings one way or the other, it's probably easier to figure out who likes him, who hates him and who could be impartial than it is for like a juror that would have to try, you know, Congressman acts that they've never heard of. And you really have to suss it out and figure it out.
[16:45:12]
Not to mention Donald Trump's defense team is doing a good job in looking at the social media profiles of these individuals something by the way that other places should be -- should be doing more perhaps to find out what people really think because everybody shares everything on social media.
WILLIAMS: The judge did not have to dis -- exclude all of these people who raised their hands and said that they could not be fair, he could have tried to rehabilitate each one of them one by one saying if I instruct you on the law, could you still be fair, what he did was get out of the room, everybody who might be on the bubble, and everybody who'd be the kind of problem that you're talking about Jake, who might sort of have questionable views about the president in either direction, and might not be able to be fair.
What he's done is created in effect a jury pool of tofu of folks who can sort of swing in any direction and be palatable to all sides. And so, in using a hatchet, he's sort of been more efficient here.
TAPPER: Let me go to Paul Reid, he has some new details from this breaking news of the fact that a full 12 person jury has been seated, and they're only looking -- and one alternate, they're just looking for five more alternates. Paula, what do you got for us?
REID: That's exactly right. And right now, the judge says he will continue jury selection tomorrow, and he hopes that they will finish tomorrow. So, right now, it appears they're still looking for five alternates, and again, they have that group of 100 potential jurors ready to come in tomorrow at 11:30.
Now earlier, you would ask for some additional details about some of the folks who had been seated in this jury, I have some details that we can report about two of them. One of them is an investment banker, who has a master's degree, lives with his wife and does not have any kids. He says that he follows Trump's Truth Social posts, as well as Michael Cohen on X or Twitter.
He said he's followed Trump since he became president saying, "Generally because it was a news item when he would put a tweet out", it's good to be aware of that. He also said that he's read Trump's book, The Art of the Deal.
Now, another juror is a security engineer who is married and has three children, has a high school diploma, says he doesn't have social media and reads a smattering of news organizations named in the questionnaire.
So, this gives you a sample of the type of Manhattan residents that are going to be sitting on this jury on deciding the facts in this case.
TAPPER: That's really interesting stuff. Let's go over this with our team here.
So, Elliot, juror number two, an investment banker has a Master's, he follows Trump's Truth Social posts, he also follows Michael Cullen on Twitter. And he's also read The Art of the Deal.
Now, The Art of the Deal was a best seller. And that doesn't necessarily mean anything one other -- one way or the other.
The fact that he has Truth Social is interesting. No, I I'm on Truth Social, but I'm a journalist, and I need to keep track of what Donald Trump is saying.
The fact that that a common person folk, real person citizen has Truth Social, would that be a an alarm for you?
WILLIAMS: Any would, as a prosecutor in this trial absolutely would be. That is like I just read it for the articles, which is in fact, what this --
TAPPER: Just for the kids out there, that's a reference to --
GANGEL: Playboy.
TARLOV: -- a magazine called Playboy.
WILLIAMS: To a magazine called Playboy.
TAPPER: But we can move past that.
WILLIAMS: But I think that's it. A prosecutor does not have to let this person on the jury. Now they have a finite number of these peremptory strikes, and you got to be very careful and judicious in how you meet them out.
But even following Michael Cohen and reading The Art of The Deal, based on the limited information we have here, that social media account for somebody who's not Jake Tapper and a journalist.
TAPPER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: If you're a prosecutor, I'd be --
TAPPER: So, just again, to go over it again. With you, Jamie, juror number two. He's an investment banker. He has a master's, he lives with his wife, no kids, he follows Trump's Truth Social posts and Michael Cohen, one of Trump's fiercest critics on Twitter.
He said he's followed Trump since he became president, "generally because it was a news item when he would put a tweet out, so good to be aware of that." And the juror has also read Trump's book, The Art of the Deal. Any red flags for you as either a defense or prosecution attorney?
GANGEL: Since I am not the lawyer at the table, look, I just actually would look at this, Elliot knows much more, if as a prosecutor, he says this guy is gone. I would take his advice.
I actually think there are a lot of people, though, who do read both of these. It is become something of a thing whether it's entertaining or whatever that people follow this back and forth. I don't know if it would be a red flag or not.
I think it's actually much more striking to me. And I don't know, we don't know about jurors eight through 12 yet, I don't think we have bios yet.
I was struck by the fact that we have at least two lawyers on this panel, which is unusual, because in my experience, prosecutors have said they would be concerned a lawyer becomes an expert of some kind, and might have undue influence.
[16:50:15]
So, I think it will be interesting, though, to see this is a very Manhattan jury, though, and it is also Chief Judge Judith Kaye, who's no longer with us, as I recall, she changed the jury selection system in Manhattan. Anybody could serve. If you were a lawyer, if you were a judge, those people used to be sort of automatically excluded. Now, everybody serves. And you're seeing that here today.
TAPPER: So, the -- I mean, what's interesting also about Truth Social just to bring this up. And, you know, it's not like Truth Social has been the most transparent company in the world as they've gone public and all that.
But some reports have data aggregators, similar web estimated the number of visitors per month Truth Social, five million active users in the U.S. and one million per month.
So, five million people instantly from social media. It's a pretty small group of people. But I do want to go to Paula Reid, who has more information. I'll come right back to you.
Paula Reid, you have more information about a juror that one of the teams tried to get dismissed today. Tell us more.
REID: Yes, again, we're getting these great updates from our reporters inside the courtroom. I think this is notable because one of the last few jurors to be seated here. This is someone that the Trump team tried to challenge for cause arguing that she does not like Trump, so she should be removed.
And during this process, she said about Trump, "He just seems very selfish and self-serving. So, I don't really appreciate that in any public servant. So, I don't know him as a person. So, I don't know how he is in terms of his integrity. It's just not my cup of tea."
But that was a not enough according to the judge to strike her for cause. Now we've learned that she works for a multinational apparel company. She is not a native New Yorker, is not married and doesn't have kids.
She said she doesn't follow the news, but occasionally follows headlines and reads industry specific publications that the last year to be seated. We have some generic details about this individual as well. She is a physical therapist, she has a doctorate degree in physical therapy. She reads the New York Times USA Today and watches CNN.
Again, these really interesting details about the people who will be deciding Trump's fate, I will expect that the Trump team will make an issue of the fact that they tried to have someone removed for saying that Trump is, "not her cup of tea", and that she will still be on the jury.
But again, there is a process here. This is someone who said she could be impartial, right? She didn't opt out there. And then during this more granular questioning, these were the answers that she gave, and the judge did not find it sufficient to remove her for cause.
TAPPER: All right, thanks so much, Paula. Let's go to Evan Perez right now, who's also I believe outside the courtroom. Evan, what does this mean in terms of what happens tomorrow?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, you know, we right now, they've only seated one of the potential -- one of the alternate jurors, according to our team in the courthouse.
By the way, Kara Scannell just ran back in there to help do some more of this reporting. But what we know is going to happen, according to the judge, is that he's going to continue this process tomorrow. We don't know exactly how many alternates. But the inclination that we had, or one indication we had was that it was going to be about six alternate jurors.
Obviously, given the stakes of this case and the amount of trouble we've had, it's probably smart for the judge to have as many alternates as he can, in order to, you know, account for any issues that might arise over the next few weeks that this trial goes on.
So, he's being very, very careful. He says he's going to continue this process tomorrow. He's not going to go through the questionnaire. So we're not going to hear any more about those jurors. They're going to come back tomorrow morning. I think he's planning to get started somewhere around 11:30 tomorrow morning, Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez. Thanks so much. Let's go back to Paula Reid. Paula, you have some more details.
REID: Yes, just waiting for our team to vet what we report so we don't identify anyone again. You just showed up to do their civic duty. We have details on two additional jurors who have been selected. One is a retired wealth manager who is married with two kids. This man has hobbies he says include fly fishing and yoga, says he hears things from people and he knows about Trump but "I'm more interested in my hobbies."
Now, another juror is a speech therapist with a master's degree, says she's not married and lives alone. And during the jury selection process, she said, "Trump was our president. Everyone knows who he is. But when he was president, everyone was kind of talking about politics."
Now when asked by one of Trump's lawyers if she feels pressured by other people, she said, "not at all." And she would also she said, take care not to talk about the case with anyone else.
So, again, more details about who will be sitting on this jury for four to six weeks deciding Trump's fate in this case.
[16:55:06]
TAPPER: All right, fascinating stuff. Let's talk about -- talk about all these developments.
Elliot, you're the attorney at the table, let's jam through some of these jurors, juror number four. Security Engineer, man, married, three kids, high school diploma, does not have social media, wise man. Reads a smattering of news organizations named in the questionnaire. Seems like a pretty good candidate.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And to use the word I used before, this is tofu. This is the kind of person who does not -- who's not coming in at least as far as we have here with a ton of background and information and could be palatable to all sides. He didn't seem to have cleavers but you know, the one thing --
TAPPER: You're using tofu as a metaphor for palatable which is interesting.
WILLIAMS: But that's the point. But it takes on the flavor --
TAPPER: I understand.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: -- of what happened. I got it. OK.
WILLIAMS: The one thing we don't have though Jake is sort of context, demeanor, dress and all of these things that these attorneys and frankly the consultants in the room are using to assess these people on the spot. It's a lot of pop psychology and even having background as to this person's, a master's degree or a job or whatever else, they're trying to George W. Bush style look into their eyes and see their soul, sort of what's happening.
TAPPER: As Bush did with Putin that didn't work out so well. New juror number eight, retired wealth manager married with two kids. This is my favorite juror so far. He's -- his hobbies include fly fishing, and yoga. I love fly fishing.
He says he hear things from people, he knows about Trump, but I'm more interested in my hobbies, and God bless. You should be more interested in your hobbies if you're a flying fisherman.
WILLIAMS: But it's also fly fishing and yoga, which are sort of --
TAPPER: Well, I don't think it's a yoga thing.
WILLIAMS: But these are two hobbies that if you were just sort of abstractly --
GANGEL: Are these tofu?
TAPPER: No, I think he's saying the other way around. WILLIAMS: Factor each other out.
TAPPER: I'm saying fly fishermen for Republicans, yoga for Democrats. That's your stereotype.
WILLIAMS: Again, based on the information we have. Yes.
TAPPER: Do you think you're going to get some angry letters from a liberal fly fisherman and conservative yoga enthusiast?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
TAPPER: So this is somebody that like are thinking OK, again, not coming to the table with a whole bunch of opinions about this, which is what you want.
New juror number nine, a speech therapist with a master's, not married, during (INAUDIBLE) this juror said, he was our president, everyone knows who he is, which is about as tofu statement as you can make about Donald Trump.
WILLIAMS: I'm so sorry, I said that word. The other thing, just an interesting --
TAPPER: To-fish (ph).
WILLIAMS: To-fish. To graft sort of politics on these legal questions. To the extent there's one defining question in American politics, now it's education or one defining factor, right?
And I'm seeing a lot of master's degrees and Bachelor's degrees in this -- in this pool of people. Now, that's not to say that there aren't Republicans, of course, who have a college education.
TAPPER: Right.
WILLIAMS: But again --
TAPPER: It tends to be the divider these days more than anything else for him.
WILLIAMS: And in the -- in the sort of pop quick on the spot decisions as that these lawyers have to make. These are the kinds of things that might be considering.
TAPPER: And if you're just joining -- tuning in, we're covering the story that a -- there is a 12 person jury that has been in paneled, we are still waiting for the six alternates, one of those six has been packed and from you can -- from what's on the -- on the right side of the screen there, the inside of the courtroom, we are waiting to see if the defendant and Mr. Trump is going to come out and say something as he has earlier this week.
And when that happens, obviously, we'll bring that to you live. Let me go back to Paula Reid with some more information. Paula, what else? REID: So, a reoccurring issue here, which is the holiday of Passover and the fact that the Trump defense team asked if they could have off next Monday and Tuesday, the first two days of Passover. And if you read the transcript, Jake, when the defense attorneys made that request, it appeared that the judge several weeks ago said yes, that shouldn't be a problem.
But when this trial began on Monday, he said no, in fact, on Monday and Tuesday, they will be in court until 2:00. So, right now, the defense attorneys are revisiting this issue, as it appears that this case could begin on Monday.
Now, the defense attorneys are saying look, it's fine to break at lunch, but they're asking not to sit on Tuesday, because Tuesday is a holiday -- a holiday and the entire day is a holiday for one member on the defense team.
The judge however, pushes back says, look, I appreciate that it's a holiday, but this is not a court holiday. So, it appears that the judge not moving on this request even though he had previously said that he would recognize any religious exemptions for jurors who wanted to observe religious holidays, it does not appear that that is being extended to the extent of the defense team has requested.
Jake, I think this is an issue that they might bring up on appeal as they continue to pursue any issue, any objection, gather them all for a potential appeal if there is a conviction.
TAPPER: All right, so they're not going to get Tuesday off for the holiday.
REID: Early dismissal. That's the best he's going to get.
TAPPER: The best he's going to get. Well, to be quite honest, that's good enough. I mean, knowing a little bit about Passover myself. It's not one of the major like high holy day holy days. It's, you know, you can -- you can get out -- right Jamie, your Passover enthusiast. Get off at lunch.
