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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Seven Men, Five Women Selected For Trump Jury; Trump Jury & One Alternative Selected, More Alternative Needed; Former VP Pence: Putin Will Attack NATO Country If Ukraine Loses. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired April 18, 2024 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Right, Jamie, you're a Passover enthusiast? Get off at lunch and --
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I believe what the judge said was sort of a 02:00 dismissal. And let's --
TAPPER: That's fine.
GANGEL: And let's keep in mind the jury are from --
TAPPER: That's the second Seder also.
GANGEL: -- Manhattan.
TAPPER: Right.
GANGEL: You can make it home in time unless you're cooking, and then it's a problem.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Legally it's not -- this is not a problem legally.
TAPPER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Full stop.
TAPPER: Passover.
WILLIAMS: No, no.
TAPPER: And also one of the attorneys, one of the defense --
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAPPER: -- attorneys wants it off. There's a whole --
WILLIAMS: All of the above.
TAPPER: -- Seder plate of defense attorneys there.
WILLIAMS: Why is this trial not like any other? TAPPER: Exactly.
WILLIAMS: But for any number of reasons. Number one, the defendant has multiple attorneys who can handle the hearing. Number two, the judge has made an accommodation by cutting court a little bit earlier that day. Look, there's many reasons why they're going to have basis to appeal later on down the road. Passover is not going to be one.
TAPPER: No, I get it, 99 problems, but Passover ain't one, as has been said by no one. Let me just do, while we're waiting for Mr. Trump to come out and we're told that he is -- he's on his way, just a little thing about juror number 10, who we haven't discussed, Elliot, he works for a retailer, says he doesn't really follow the news. Again, tofu. He does, in your words, he does, however, listen to podcasts on behavior psychology. It's my little hobby there, he said during jury selection.
He was born and raised in Ohio. He's unmarried, lives with another adult roommate. He loves to spend his time outdoors and with animals. I mean, again, somebody not really interested in headlines.
WILLIAMS: No. And based on the information we have, this is the only kind of person who was likely to get on a jury like this. So many people in their news consumption and their social media usage would have some kind of red or at least yellow orange flag to them. Here, this is an individual, literally, behavioral psychology is perhaps the least partisan political thing, I think, in the world that would have been put off flags to either of these parties here. So I think it should not come as a huge shock that someone like this would have ended up on the jury.
TAPPER: Right. And for those who have been watching polling over the last eight years and wondering who is this 7 percent of people that don't have strong feelings about Donald Trump one way or the other, like the people who strongly love him love him, strongly hate him hate him, who are these 7 percent that have no feelings? They're on the jury right now.
Here's Donald Trump. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does it feel be on the jury?
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, thank you very much. I wanted to just say that I'm supposed to be in New Hampshire. I'm supposed to be in Georgia. I'm supposed to be in North Carolina, South Carolina. I'm supposed to be in a lot of different places campaigning.
But I've been here all day on a trial that really is a very unfair trial. These are all stories. This is -- over the last few days from legal experts, this is Wall Street Journal editorial. But all of these are stories from legal experts saying how this is not a case. The case is ridiculous.
There's another one, the case is a ridiculous Trump indictment. It's missing fraud. There is no fraud. All of these stories are stories of how -- and these are done by the experts and editorials, Bragg falsified business record and he falsifies them. He's the one, he's the fraud.
Take a look at all of these stories. You see him here. Bragg's indictment even falls as an indictment. All of them. Bragg crosses the Rubicon, indicting Trump on that sense.
The whopping outrage in Trump's indictment. It's a whopping outrage and it is an outrage. Everybody's outraged, right?
You know, we had 18 DA or DA types were close, 18 or 19 or 21, they counted all them in and out like -- and in the meantime, we have murders going on right outside in New York. Look at this National Review, another National Review, Jonathan Turley, Greg Jarrett, Andrew McCarthy, every one of them saying they caught a zombie case, meaning it is no case. And they say, is it constitutional? They don't think the cases -- these are all stories that have taken place over the last few days.
Take a look at this, DA Bragg wants us to believe that his pursuit of Trump isn't political. Of course it's political. And they're doing it for Biden. They're doing this for Joe Biden. Even the Rolling Stone, no friend of mine, they don't like -- it says, they don't like Bragg's chances on this case.
[17:05:10]
It's a disgrace. That's a nice headline. I'd like to read that one too. But every one of them lies about the case. Justice is on trial.
You know, the whole world is watching this New York scam. The trial spectacle begins as Wall Street Journal. It's spectacle. Every one of these. America is a third world country, Daily Caller.
Wow. That's New York magazine even. All of them, they just came out. These are all -- every single one. I haven't seen one that says it's a good trial.
It's political, except this is a Wall Street Journal editorial. And it's a shame. It's a shame. And I'm sitting here for days now from morning till night in that freezing room, freezing, everybody was freezing in there, and all for this, and this is your result. Look at that. Each one of them is story and it's very unfair, very bad thing.
Very bad thing. The whole world is watching this hoax. You got a DA that's out of control. You have a judge that's highly conflicted. The whole thing is a mess.
And you have the leading candidate and leading crooked Joe Biden by lie. He's the one that should be in trial. He's a crook. You got a crooked president, he should be in trial. With all the stuff he's done in his family, he should be in trial, but he's the one in charge.
His top people are here working with the DA's office to make sure everything goes right. But it shouldn't go right because they have no case. And that's what this is all about. And it really is a shame. This country is devolving into a third world country between having no borders, having no justice, we have no justice and having a press that doesn't want to cover the facts.
So, thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The juror --
TAPPER: The defendant, Donald Trump there after the breaking news, a jury of 12 have been seated and selected to adjudicate in the criminal hush money cover up case against Mr. Trump. All happening just in the last half hour or so. Mr. Trump there saying that it is not fair, that this case is going on -- that it is an unfair case. He cited a number of conservative writers saying as much. He also cited a Rolling Stone article from more than a year ago suggesting that there are people who don't like Trump, but think this case is weak. Let's go straight to CNN Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez, who's outside the courthouse.
Evan, quite a whirlwind of a day.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It is a whirlwind of a day, Jake. Look, we started pretty rough where we had two jurors who had been put on the panel were excused from serving. One of them because she said that she no longer believed she could be fair. She was concerned about details about her -- about her life that had made it out into the public. And another one who, prosecutors said, a person with a similar name.
The only thing we know is that a person with a similar name had an arrest record. And so that person was questioned and in the end was excused. We don't know exactly why they were excused. But then, as you pointed out in the last half hour, we now have a jury of 12 and one alternate. The 12 who have been seated -- the 12 jurors, seven men and five women.
And it's a cross section of New Yorkers who are now going to be sitting in this courthouse behind me for the next few weeks to hear this case on Donald Trump. I'll tell you just a little bit about a few of these people. One of them, the foreman -- the foreman for the jury is someone who's originally from Ireland. He works in sales. We have an investment banker.
We have a couple of lawyers who are on this jury. And you know, some of the things that you hear the former president complaining about what he thinks is the unfairness of this jury. You have people on here like, for example, an African-American woman who said that she believes that the former president speaks his mind. And I'd rather someone who's in office who then -- someone who doesn't know -- you don't know what they're thinking. That's one of the jurors who was chosen to sit on this -- on this jury.
Another juror who the former president -- his legal team tried to remove from the jury, she said, she described him as, he seems very selfish, very self -serving. In the end, she said that she believed she could be fair. So now we have this jury seated, Jake. We expect that tomorrow the judge will continue choosing alternates. We believe he's going to choose as many as six alternates.
[17:10:19]
One has been chosen already. And so this is -- process is going to continue again tomorrow beginning at around 11:30 a.m. Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez in New York, thank you so much.
CNN's Daniel Dale is CNN's resident fact checker. He's handy to have around at times like this.
Daniel, we just heard a little speech from Mr. Trump. What did you make of it? Did he say anything that was not true?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: He did. I mean, it was mostly uncheckable, subjective opinion, but he did say a few things that weren't quite right at very least. So he repeated his false conspiracy theory that essentially that Joe Biden is behind this case, which was brought by a locally elected district attorney. He said Biden is behind it. He has his top people working with the DAs office to make sure everything goes right.
There is no basis for that. That appears to be a reference to a former Justice Department official who went to work for the DA's office. But there's no sign that was anything but his own employment decision. In fact, this former official, Matthew Colangelo, had previously been a colleague of DA Bragg, so he rejoined his old colleague. He also claimed that Joe Biden is a crooked president should be on trial.
I think that's mostly opinion, but I think it's worth noting, Jake, that we've had this extended Republican House investigation impeachment inquiry, no evidence of impeachable offenses, high crimes and misdemeanors, let alone criminal offenses. And then I should note, as you did briefly, that, you know, he read this big pile of documents of articles citing headlines denouncing the case. I googled some of them as he was speaking, so he read one -- talking about the whopping outrage in Trump's indictment. Well, that's harsh criticism. Where was it from?
A Fox News column. He mentioned the Daily Caller, another right wing publication. I googled another headline from the right wing National Review he mentioned. So there are some liberal scholars, legal experts, publications who have raised questions about this case. But that pile he showed was largely his usual friends, the usual suspects praising Trump, defending Trump in the conservative media.
TAPPER: All right, Daniel Dale, thanks so much. We're going to have much more from our lawyers reacting to this breaking news. A jury has been selected in the hush money case. We're also going to talk to Vice President Mike Pence. Stay with us. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:16:31]
TAPPER: And we're back with breaking news. The jury in Donald Trump's trial has been seeded, but tomorrow morning, court will be back in session because they have to pick six total alternate jurors. Let's bring back CNN's Kara Scannell.
Kara, what's the latest?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I mean, jury selection now is finished, at least as far as the initial 12 jurors go. They also have seated one alternate juror, and that means that there are still as many as five more that they want to seat. But the jurors have gone home for the day. And I think, as you saw, former President Trump has left the building as well. But we are moving along much quicker than it seemed that were this morning.
It looked like this morning we had a setback. Two jurors were removed out of the seven that had been seated. And it appeared as though this was now potentially going to slow things down. But then just in the last hour or so of court, things sped up very quickly and we'd suddenly gotten to the point where we seated this jury. And the jury is made up of a bunch of professionals in Manhattan.
There is a speech therapist, someone who owns their own business, a couple of people who work in finance, a security engineer. The foreman is still the man from Ireland who works in sales. But now this initial jury of 12 is set. They will hear the evidence in this case. The judge is expecting that opening statements could begin on Monday.
That day will be half a day because of Passover holiday. But we will now get into this trial with jury selection -- I'm sorry, with jury selection nearly complete, opening statements coming Monday. And at the end of the hearing today, there was a suggestion that we could even get to the first witnesses in this case on Monday, the Trump's team had asked for the identities of those. The prosecution said they were not going to turn those names over because of the tweeting that Trump has made and the social media posts he's made about some of the witnesses in the case. The judge said they're not required to.
So, for now, the prosecution is not sharing the first witnesses that they will call in this historic case, Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Kara Scannell outside the courthouse in Manhattan, thanks so much.
Joining us now, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, CNN legal analyst and former chief assistant district attorney in the Manhattan district attorney's office. And also joining us, Stacy Schneider, Manhattan criminal defense attorney general and a former contestant on Trump's T.V. show, "The Apprentice." Schneider has also worked with Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg's office and has appeared before Judge Juan Merchan.
Stacy, when leaving the courtroom, Mr. Trump, the defendant, claimed that this is an unfair trial. He complained about how cold the courtroom is, that he's not able to hit the campaign trail. He said that President Biden's behind the prosecution. There's no evidence of that. You were a contestant on "The Apprentice," does any of this behavior surprise you?
STACY SCHNEIDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE TRIAL ATTORNEY: No, not at all. First of all, Trump is great thinking on his feet about what he wants to say to the media. He planned this one out, though, obviously because he had that stack of news stories or op-ed opinions that this is, you know, not a valid prosecution and the DA doesn't have evidence. But that kind of rhetoric is going to fade away as this trial gets underway because of the particular indictment that was filed against him. This a case solely about falsifying business records and the DA has cited in the indictment actual physical evidence that they claim to have, checkbooks, checks, check stubs, receipts, entries into business ledgers, there's nothing political about the case.
[17:20:04]
And I think the public will see that as the evidence is presented.
TAPPER: So, Karen, let me ask you, I think Mr. Trump expressed surprise the other day on Truth Social, if memory serves, that he didn't have an unlimited number of peremptory challenges to dismiss individuals who couldn't be fair. That's obviously not the procedure, each side gets a limited number. I didn't devise this legal system and I'm not sure that this is the way I would have done it. Juror number 11 during voir dire said about Trump, he just seems very selfish and self-serving, so I don't really appreciate that in any public servant, so I don't know him as a person, so I don't know how he is in terms of his integrity. He's just not my cup of tea or it's not just -- it's just not my cup of tea.
Now to me, I would think, well, that can't -- that person can't be fair. But I'm guessing that the defense ran out of peremptory challenges and she's on the jury. Is that normal? Does that alarm you at all? What do you think?
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So there's two different types of challenges. One that are called for cause challenge, and that's the kind that you're talking about. Somebody who expresses that they cannot be fair or impartial, those you do have an unlimited number of. But when it comes to the challenges, just because you don't like the person, those you do have to -- there's only 10 per side that is statutorily regulated. And so this particular juror clearly expressed that regardless of how they felt about Donald Trump, that they can be fair and impartial.
And that's important because jurors take that really seriously. Think about it, you could have a murder case, for example. No one's going to be pro murder or like a murderer, doesn't matter. It's can you be fair and impartial in this case and evaluate the evidence for what it is? So, clearly that juror said that they could be fair and impartial.
TAPPER: Stacy, what do you think?
SCHNEIDER: So the -- every person believes that they can be fair and impartial. And the biggest danger in these types of trials, from the defense side particularly, is someone can say those magic words and the judge, you know, they won't be dismissed for a cause, there's no reason to dismiss them. Both sides run out of their peremptory challenges, those wildcard challenges that were just described, that you can just release a juror or have them dismissed for any reason without justifying it to the judge. But the biggest danger, and in this case with somebody like Donald Trump as the defendant, are people who are hiding those biases or will have those biases come out once they have to make a decision and all the evidence is in, even though they promised in jury selection that they could be fair and impartial and put those thoughts aside. And the biggest threat in picking a jury is relying on peoples promise to put their biases aside.
And sometimes it's just impossible, particularly when you have somebody as intimidating as Donald Trump.
TAPPER: Everybody thinks they have a good sense of humor, everybody thinks they have good taste, everybody thinks they can be fair on a jury. Stacy Schneider, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, thank you so much to you.
How all this from the trial today fits into Trump's 2024 presidential campaign? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:27:31]
TAPPER: Continuing with our breaking news coverage, a jury of 12 has been selected in former President Donald Trump's criminal hush money cover up trial. Let's bring in our political panel to react to that and much more.
Alice Stewart, this is a big moment for Donald Trump. You heard him come out and say, and I certainly understand his sentiment, I want to be in New Hampshire campaigning, I want to be in South Carolina campaigning, instead, I'm here. He had this big ream of papers, of op- eds, mostly from the usual suspects, but people backing him saying it's an unfair trial. How do you -- how do you think he's handling all this?
ALICE STEWART, FORMER TED CRUZ COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, look, he's clearly going to stick with his message, right? He's going to continue to come out of court every day and go into court every day saying that this is a witch hunt, this is weaponization of the Justice Department, I am the biggest threat and opponent of Joe Biden and this district attorney, and this court system is out to get me. And as he said, with all of the reams of papers he put forth from conservative outlets, citing one legal scholar after another who said this is an unconstitutional trial, this is a zombie case, this is not right, he's going to continue that message. And he's going to continue to reengage his base as activists and say he is a victim of the Justice Department.
The problem is his game right now and his mission right now is to appeal to Independent and late decided voters. They're not concerned about what happens inside a courtroom to the former president, they're concerned what happens in their pocketbook to them right now. And so, my advice to him, given that he has a world stage every time he walks in and out, talk about what he's going to do for the economy, talk about what he's going to do for the border and security, those are the issues that voters are concerned about. And those are the issues and the people he needs to sway his way between now and November.
TAPPER: It's an interesting suggestion. It would mean that Donald Trump would have to put aside his sense of grievance, Audie, and I don't know that he's honestly capable of it.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's also interesting because a few years ago he was able to say that Joe Biden was campaigning, like, from the basement, right, in the COVID era limitations of campaigns. And now things have flipped, Biden is starting to open up offices here and there. And you also have Trump now locked in place. And as you're pointing out, he doesn't know what to do with that -- with that space. He could be using it the way you're talking about because as you can see, we ran it, right?
We're like, you're speaking outside the courtroom, you're under a criminal indictment, this is your space to speak. But he still used it in a way that isn't fresh or interesting or engaging to Independent voters who will look up and go court in front -- Trump in front of a courthouse, seen it, you know, and --
[17:30:00]
KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think the problem for him here is we've seen evidence that this message is not resonating. It's not landing with people certainly the way it did in 2016. I mean, you saw as he ran through the republican primary. Yes, he, you know, he crashed his way to the nomination. But, you know, you saw significant chunks of Republican voters vote for other candidates, vote for Nikki Haley even after she had dropped out of the race. There was clearly a desire amongst a Republican electorate for someone else. And this is a race that's going to be won and lost in the margins.
And so the inability for him to deliver a message that is directed at independence, a message that's directed at growing his coalition, combined with the fact that we do see some fatigue, we saw some fatigue in the numbers as he was running through the Republican primary. He's not putting forward a message that is building his base, and that's going to be a problem for him.
ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I will say to his credit, I think what he does better than most people is understand the limitations of the situation and he is boxed into a courtroom. Now they're thinking outside the box.
CORNISH: Yes.
STEWART: And I'll give his campaign credit. The other day he went to a bodega in New York City where the store owner killed someone who was broken into the store. And he used that as an opportunity to go there and talk about the situation of crime and justice in New York City. It was a quick, short, off the record visit, but he made a point of an important issue in New York. Case important --
CORNISH: Or at least in a point, important issue to his campaign. Right, Republicans have talked --
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Crime. Yes.
CORNISH: -- so much about crime.
TAPPER: Yes.
STEWART: Right.
CORNISH: And now you can use that stage to your advantage.
STEWART: Right. And it wasn't a massive rally, but it was a short, quick opportunity to make a point. Also going into the Chick-fil-A in Georgia, use it as an opportunity to show that he has support amongst African American voters.
TAPPER: Audie, President Biden and his campaign have pretty much shied away from commenting on this legal stuff. Do you think that's the right approach?
CORNISH: Well, I mean, I can't say if it's the right or wrong approach, but I think they are not involved in this process. It is a New York courtroom, and I don't think they have any incentive to jump in there and limit themselves, right, to a campaign in front of a courthouse. This is his time, I think, for this administration to try and sprint campaign wise. And you saw that when Kamala Harris went down to Arizona, right.
Instead of being scared of going down to the border because people have been saying it's a problem for them, she was able to go down there and talk about abortion.
TAPPER: Everyone stick with me because we have more to talk -- discuss. There's the Trump campaign and the larger Republican Party. Will Republicans try to separate themselves at all from Trump, the candidate? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:36:50]
TAPPER: Continuing with our breaking news coverage, a jury of 12 of Donald Trump's peers have been selected in his criminal hush money cover up. Trial court will resume tomorrow at 9:30 a.m. They will need to pick five more alternate jurors. They've already picked one. Let's bring back our panel. And Audie Cornish, let me start with you. Prosecutor Josh Steinglass is refusing to share the witness list with the defense. They say because of Donald Trump's previous tweets about witnesses. That's interesting and pretty telling when it comes to the special nature of this case.
CORNISH: Yes. It reflects the difficulty for our legal system to figure out how do you have this conversation, not just with the former president, but with someone who is actively running for office? There are real questions here that we are going to be encountering step by step, and this is one of them.
All of us know at this point, you can be doxxed. Your life can be turned upside down. You can ask the election workers in Georgia what it can mean if your identity is revealed in a way that's disparaging. And we're going to see both the judge, the prosecutors, maybe even the defense, taking these sort of tentative steps here and there trying to figure out how to manage this experience.
TAPPER: You know, what's interesting about it also is, you know, for instance, Judge Merchan has given Donald Trump a gag order saying that he's not allowed to talk about the witnesses, right? Well, Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen have certainly had some pretty fulsome criticisms of Donald Trump, some pretty personal ones in Stormy Daniels case that, you know, they haven't held back. And there are questions of, like, is that fair? But again, because of what he --
CORNISH: It's absolutely right to ask if it's fair, right?
TAPPER: Right.
CORNISH: But there hasn't been a riot at their command either. So I think that's sort of --
TAPPER: Exactly.
STEWART: But I think that the question and the concern here is in part the pushback from Donald Trump, whether you're getting tweeted at or pushed out on social media. The question is when he puts out a statement, his followers act on that sometimes in their frustration and their anger. And that's the concern is when he puts out something that might be critical, whether it is -- whether it's a member of a jury or a family member of those involved in the case, the concern is how will his followers respond to that.
So I think it's proper to discourage him from speaking out during this case. And I hope that his attorneys urge him to use his discretion when he's tweeting out on this.
BEDINGFIELD: You know, in some ways politically, he should view the gag order as a gift. I mean, he should, to Alice's point, as we're discussing in the last panel discussion, you know, he should use this opportunity to talk about what he's going to do for Americans if he gets a second term in office.
He should not use the media attention to talk about how this impacts him, how he's the victim. I mean, he's essentially -- his message is all about him. And that's not actually when people go to the polls and they're deciding who they believe should be president of the United States, they want to know what that person is going to do for them.
And so I think if, you know, I think if he were smart, he would view the gag order as a political gift and say, you know what, I am not going to spend all my time talking about this trial. I'm going to talk about what I'm going to do if I get a second term as president. I don't think he's capable of doing that. I think his narcissism won't allow him to do that. But it is interesting that he has this platform, and he's -- I would argue he's squandering it.
[17:40:05] TAPPER: But as was suggested, the idea, Alice, I think it was you that suggested that he take the opportunity. Look, we, out of fairness, we're covering this trial. The defendant comes out and speaks. We're going to cover that, right?
BEDINGFIELD: Right.
TAPPER: Just out of basic fairness. He's the defendant. Certainly most of the coverage about what's going on is not positive for him. You give him that opportunity, but instead he has a, you know, a ream of papers and list of grievances. You're saying, come out and say, this is what I would do to, like, lower your taxes.
STEWART: Right. And that's what the independent voters and the undecided voters who are really his target audience now, that's certainly what they want to hear. And look, the people that he spoke with when he came out, he's already got their support. They're going to continue to support him. And the more he can use the opportunity for his limited time, he has to get out there and talk about the issues that are important to them.
Look, he can look at these polls right now. We're seeing he's tied or in the lead in these key battleground states against Joe Biden on key issues. And people are concerned with the economy, the border, public safety, national security. Those are things that he should be using this MAGA microphone to talk about because that's what voters are concerned with.
BEDINGFIELD: I think the Biden campaign is being smart about how they're using this opportunity. I mean, they're kind of straight, strategically picking their battles. You saw them put out this fundraising e-mail this week that, you know, included the word stormy and was clearly sort of making a nod to the case, but was actually about abortion. And, you know, did it in a way that you can imagine probably riled Donald Trump up personally, but actually just drove the conversation to abortion, an issue that we know has motivated Democrats, Independents, Moderate Republicans to come out. So I think they -- he, you know, they are using this moment in a way that I think is smart and Trump is not.
TAPPER: All right, thanks one and all for being here. And lest we forget, it's Audie Cornish Thursday. And a new episode of our show just dropped today. It's a podcast called "The Assignment with Audie Cornish." It is a must listen. Download it anywhere you get your podcasts. And happy Audie Cornish Thursday.
CORNISH: Thank you. Thank you.
TAPPER: I know you --
CORNISH: Copy, I'll send a check.
TAPPER: Happy Audie Cornish Thursday.
CORNISH: Thank you. TAPPER: There is no love lost between former Vice President Mike Pence and Donald Trump right now, but will Pence vote for Donald Trump? I'll ask him next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:46:10]
TAPPER: Former vice president Mike Pence today is calling on Congress to approve funding for aid to Ukraine and warning Russian President Vladimir Putin will eventually wage war on a NATO country if Ukraine loses the war, to do so as soon as possible. Pence is in Belgium for the Brussels forum, speaking on the danger of American isolationism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are those who think that if we continue to support the Ukrainian military with resources, that will somehow lead us to World War III, I believe the opposite is true. I believe the real lesson of history is when we falter in our commitment, when we don't take tyrannical regimes seriously, and we don't take dictators at their word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: And joining us now, former Vice President Mike Pence. Mr. Vice president, you've been talking to European leaders there in Belgium as you travel across Europe, what are you hearing from allied leaders about Russia's war against Ukraine? How dire the situation is there, their fears about what Putin will do after Ukraine?
PENCE: Well, I think you actually use the word that I've heard most often, and that is the situation in Ukraine is dire today. But the reality is that there's a gathering storm that I think our allies here in Europe recognize. That's why it's so heartening to me to see Speaker Mike Johnson and the Republican leadership moving forward on an aid bill. I think America is the leader of the free world, Jake.
And I think it's important in this moment that we accept that responsibility, that we renew support for the Ukrainians who fought against this unprovoked and brutal invasion now for more than two years, give them what they need to make the fight. Because as I said here today and have said for many years, I have no doubt in my mind, having met Vladimir Putin, that if Putin were allowed to overrun Ukraine, it would not be long before he crossed the border of a NATO country where our men and women in uniform would be required to fight.
So the situation is dire. Vladimir Putin continues to brutalize the people of Ukraine, literally fired a missile at a hotel that took dozens of lives and injured nearly 100 men, women, and children. Now is the time for America to lead. And I'm encouraged to see the Congress moving in that direction.
TAPPER: They are moving in that direction. But it's taking quite some time. And a lot of the protest against this bill is coming from the right wing of the Republican Party in the House, some of Donald Trump's most stalwart supporters. What do you say to them when they say, not more -- not one more penny to Ukraine? What's your response?
PENCE: Well, I say to them from my years of experience as vice president, from my years serving on the International Relations Committee in the House, that this is a real moment of testing for the United States. And we need to meet this moment because, look, I understand the frustration with the failed policies of the Biden administration at home and abroad.
I mean, literally the worst border crisis in American history resulting from Joe Biden undoing all the policies we put into effect, record inflation over the last three years and that disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan that undermined the credibility and the confidence of the free world in American leadership. I think it all literally set the stage for the moment we're in today.
And I would just say to my colleagues on Capitol Hill, my old friends, that now is a moment where the United States of America needs to square our shoulders. We need to recognize we are the leader of the free world. And we need to step into this moment and send a deafening message, not just to Russia and Vladimir Putin, Jake, but also renew our support to our cherished ally, Israel, support Taiwan, and also send a very clear message to the mullahs in Tehran and, frankly, to President Xi in Beijing that America is going to stand firm for freedom.
[17:50:41]
TAPPER: You say isolationism is never the answer. That was theme of your speech earlier today. The rhetoric of your former running mate, Donald Trump, has been a major driving factor in your party, the Republican Party's gradual shift toward a more isolationist view over the past eight years. Maybe it's a minority view, but it's growing in power. And this helped create the climate for the foreign aid fight we're seeing today, which is also threatening Speaker Johnson's job.
Now, you have famously split with Mr. Trump over both January 6th and his views on foreign aid. But I wonder if, as Trump, former vice president, if you ever feel that maybe you played any role in the erosion of the Reagan ideology that you stand for.
PENCE: Well, first, let me now skip over the fact, I think Speaker Mike Johnson is in a tough spot. Look, it's a very narrow majority. And I think what the American people will witness here is nothing short of moral courage here. Speaker Mike Johnson has decided to do what he believes is right and trust the American people with the outcome in this moment. And I commend him for that.
But as to your question, it's a fair question. But I will tell you, I honestly believe the emergence of this new Republican isolationism, I believe is something that has come forth in the last three years, particularly with the disaster at our southern border, the record inflation, and the Russian invasion into Ukraine. I think you have many Republicans that are falling back to the notion that we've got problems here at home.
We can't solve every problem in the world when the reality is that anyone that says that we can't secure our border, revive our economy, and be the leader of the free world has got a pretty small view of the greatest nation on earth. We've done both now for 75 years. We can do both again. And in our administration, I honestly believe, Jake, that, you know, we built up our military, we stood with our allies, stood up to our enemies. We didn't go looking foreign entanglements.
But when the moment presented itself, whether it was a fight against ISIS, taking down Qasem Soleimani, cruise missiles into Syria, we were willing to use American force. And that's the opposite of isolationism. That's American leadership.
TAPPER: You have said that you're not endorsing Donald Trump. You also have not ruled out voting for him. Why not?
PENCE: Well, I'll just keep my vote to myself. You know, I'd never vote for Joe Biden, but I thought it was fair. Many people had asked me what my posture was going forward, and, you know, based upon the differences the president and I still have over my constitutional duties on January 6th. But also, as you said, based upon how I see the president shying away from our commitment as leader of the free world, being prepared to ignore the national debt. Now, even walking away from a commitment to the right to life at the national level, I just made it clear that I will not be endorsing Donald Trump in this campaign. But I'll keep my vote on my own, and I'll vote according to my conscience in private, just like every American will.
TAPPER: Before you go, I do have to ask you about Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial, which is underway right now in New York. You've blasted the case that the district attorney, Alvin Bragg, has brought, saying it's, quote, nothing short of a political prosecution being affected by a Manhattan D.A. who literally campaigned on bringing charges against one particular American, unquote. Surely you can't think it's OK to falsify business records. And I don't think you, what I know of you, that you would ever sanction a married man cheating on his wife with a porn star. So, forgetting the trial for one second, what about the underlying alleged behavior?
PENCE: Well, look, the sort of details of this, the business details of this, I want to remind you and your viewers that every American is entitled to a presumption of innocence. So I want to maintain that posture as this criminal trial goes forward. But look, there's a lot of people across this country look at a case like this that two previous prosecutors rejected. And the current prosecutor actually rejected until he was pressured to bring it again. He changed it from a misdemeanor to a felony, and this just doesn't look like equal treatment under the law.
[17:55:12]
TAPPER: Mr. Trump is absolutely presumed innocent until proven guilty. No question about that. I did say alleged behavior. Do you think he's innocent of those charges, your personal view?
PENCE: He did. I wouldn't care to speculate about it, to be honest with you. But I will tell you that the very idea of a campaign finance case being brought in state court as a criminal matter, someone that's lived under campaign finance laws for most of my career at the federal level, it -- you know, Jake, to be honest, it just comes across as a stretch.
TAPPER: Former vice president Mike Pence, thank you so much. Travel safe, sir.
PENCE: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:00:07]
TAPPER: The breaking news this hour, a jury has been selected in Donald Trump's hush money cover up case. Court resumes tomorrow to pick up where they left off in jury selection. They still need five more alternative jurors. The judge says opening statements could still begin as soon as Monday.
Outside the courtroom, Donald Trump held up a stack of printed news articles and editorials, largely from supportive news outlets, and claimed that the case against him is, quote, ridiculous. Trump's hush money trial will be the focus of a special Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer, which starts right now.
