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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Protests Escalate At Colleges Across The Country; Protesters Defy Deadline To Leave Columbia Encampment; Protesters Move Inside Royce Hall At UCLA. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired April 29, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: You see them congregating there. They've also gone inside of Royce Hall just this afternoon chanting, clapping, and holding signs. We'll continue to monitor what's happening there.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: We haven't really seen a major police presence in L.A., while in Austin, both state and local police have been corralling those protesters there. At least seven we believe have been detained as things intensify on the campus of UT-Austin.

We'll continue following these stories and so much more.

THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We start with breaking news. Stark scenes of division, protest, arrests, and at the times blatant antisemitism sweeping college campuses. We'll bring you to the University of Texas in Austin in just a minute, where police in riot gear just encircled a group of protesters. Some arrests have reportedly been made.

But first, this afternoon, at Columbia University in New York, student protesters just blew past their 2:00 p.m. deadline to clear the encampment or risk suspension or even expulsion, according to Columbia administrators.

Students circled the tents as a group of student leaders addressed the crowd. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can see outside you now that are mobilized. There's hundred of them here today. They will not be moved. We demand divestment. We will not be moved unless by force.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Right now, the New York Police Department is on standby waiting for an official order from the university. Meanwhile, an anonymous Jewish student is suing Columbia today,

accusing the newly -- the college for the newly instituted hybrid class model, saying that those who use it because they feared violence on campus that creates a, quote, second-class education for Jewish students at Columbia and Barnard.

While the university remains defiant on not divesting from Israel, or from any other country, one of the protesters key demands, the Columbia administration says they will move forward on holding a commencement ceremony in mid-May.

Across the United States right now, at times, violent protests and the arrests are causing faculty and students to call for various college and university presidents to resign, as classes continue to be disrupted, graduation plans hang in the balance.

Let's go straight to CNN's Ed Lavandera right now, who's on the campus at UT-Austin.

And, Ed, you're seeing police in riot gear surrounding students. What's happening right now?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the area that you see behind me just beyond these officers is an encampment and a small what's been described by the protesters as a liberated it is exactly the kind of image that university administrators, I said they essentially would not tolerate. And several hours ago, these students had taken a number of folding tables and set up from tents.

And we can see the crowd that is inside, inside there. And now state troopers, as well as local police have encircled of the encampment here. The encampment itself is very small, Jake, about 15 to 20 yards in diameter. And there are dozens of students inside. And what we've seen, play out over the last hour-and-a-half or so is arrest. In fact, you can see it taking place there right now where a small group of officers goes inside the encampment area there and starts pulling protesters out.

There have been more than a dozen different protesters now at this point that we've been able to see who have been taken away in zip ties and they have been told that they would be arrested for disorderly conduct. But you're seeing the situation there unfold as we speak and number of the protesters.

They're inside this area. They have locked arms, trying to make it harder for the officers to pull them away from the scene and they get pulled out either by their feet and then they get taken into custody. So were seeing that the pace at which the officers are taken more of these people into custody has really picked up in the last 30 minutes or so.

But they were told several hours ago, either to disperse from his area that there were no longer allowed to be here because they had violated university rules in terms of this kind of protest and setting up the tents. There were a number of alerts that went out over the phone system here at UT, sent the text messages as well as officers that arrived are ordering of these protesters to disperse from this area.

Obviously, they have refused, and this is a situation Jake that quickly developed. There was an event that was going on here earlier today, had an education or female poetry readings. And art that was being made for protest signs and that sort of thing. And then there was a silent vigil that several professors were holding then it quickly escalated into this situation. And that's why we saw the officers arrived here. Obviously reminiscing, Jake, of what we saw take place on this campus last week when it became much more violent than what we have seen today, because that was a protest that was moving through the campus.

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Nearly 60 people were arrested last Wednesday, all of those charges against the protesters were dropped in the days after the protests last week. And once again, officers back on here on the campus of the University of Texas starting to slowly remove all of the protesters in the small encampment on the south mall of the university campus -- Jake.

TAPPER: Ed, what exactly are the protesters demanding of the University of Texas, Austin or the UT Texas system?

LAVANDERA: The demands are essentially the same that we have seen in other campuses across the country, this idea of forcing university to divest itself from investments, they say supports the Israeli cause in the Middle East, and that's what they want to -- that's what they're protesting. They also see it as a solidarity with the protests of other college campuses across the country as well, specifically, Columbia and Yale.

And that's what we've heard repeatedly, but now that the officers were here, a bunch of the criticism and the chance that we are hearing shake his criticism of the police presence here in the police tactics that are folding here. But compared to what we saw last week to see here, but very different in than just different kind of protests because this is a fixed location. There are students moving from one location or another, like marching through the campus and now, these officers in small strike teams, if you will, going to see another gentleman there, protests are being pulled away in a in a purple shirt, zip tied, and then they're taken down the streets in another location.

We saw a sheriff's school van looking -- that arrived here a little while ago, presumably to take away one of these protesters and the pace that this campus is being cleared out now, is really starting to pick up as the officers are mixed faster and quickly, moving -- taking a lot of these protesters into custody.

TAPPER: Tell us more about the crowd. Are they all undergraduate students? Are they all UT Texas -- UT Austin students? How are they reacting to the students being hauled away in zip ties?

LAVANDERA: Well, there's a lot of criticism of that -- they're chanting now, you have a choice, talking to the officers themselves. But if we step out, out of this area, you can see the way the way this works. This is the encampment that is inside the south mall area.

And so, inside that circle, in that protest area, that's where the number of officers have encircled the camp, and this kind of gives you a sense of just how many people onlookers, some who have been very supportive of the protesters in the cause and out here supporting them. But it also, especially like on the other side of this encampment two, they're just a lot of students who are just looking in taking in what is happening. You should point out today is actually the last day of classes here on the University of Texas campus, and the students gearing up for their semester finals and that sort of thing.

So this is kind of a bigger picture if we stepped out of it a little bit to kind of give you a sense of what you're seeing here. It's a large crowd picking up, much of this south mall area of this, but the protests itself much smaller inside this crowd of people here, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Ed Lavandera in Texas, in Austin. The student protests there, thanks so much.

Let's go now to CNN's Miguel Marquez who's in New York City, at the campus of Columbia, and Barnard University.

Miguel, what are the students there telling you.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They do not want to leave. They've kicked it back over the university and said, well leave if you forces out and the university is basically said you've gone past the 2:00 p.m. deadlines and leave the encampment peaceably, in the next couple of days, it sounds like. They will decide whether or not those individuals will be suspended and then might be more.

But the university says itself, it doesn't want to have to call it in NYPD. But the university has those and I'll show you right now is they brought in NYPD to protect the gates outside of University of Columbia, can be pretty well walked down these are the main gates to spin action, reactions to the last couple of weeks.

So, as soon as that work went out that Columbia was going through shut down the encampment, the student protesters called for protesters to come to the campus itself outside the campus. And that's the result you see here. It's been about the same size several dozen protesters now, not huge by these by pro-Palestinian protests standards.

Excuse me, pardon me, but it's been good boisterous and it's right up front of Columbia University, Jake.

TAPPER: So, Miguel, my understanding from the university is that they're pretty serious about suspending or expelling students. So, presumably, everybody or most of those are not evacuating the area that they told them to leave from.

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The students aren't concerned at all about that? MARQUEZ: So, sure, those students are in -- they've locked on the university. The only way you can get into this university is to be a student. So presumably, everybody or most for those that are taking part, just a few hundred feet away in the student protest, or all students.

They are giving them a choice to leave, to sign over -- to sign a document that says they understand the rules of Columbia University. Today also the last day of classes here, people are going into their finals and they have commencement coming up. For those students, you know, keep in mind, 80 percent, maybe 90 percent of the students at this university don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other and just want to get through their classes.

The protest is right outside the library here. It is finals time. It's very, very stressful from the students who just want to graduate or get their studies done and move on -- Jake.

TAPPER: I know there's a lot of reluctance a by administrators at Columbia University to ask for the NYPD to move in. How close are they?

MARQUEZ: I think we're going to have to see that in the next couple of days. The protesters have said, we're not moving unless you force this out. That we will see over the next 10, 12 hours or so, whether or not the university has anything to play. The university in its own statements said it does not want to call NYPD back in.

Two weeks ago when they cleared out an encampment here, that was the reaction. What we've seen now is the reaction to all of that, not just here at Columbia, but across the country as well. So I think the university would like not to go there, but it sounds like reserve the right to do that if the protesters will not leave, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Miguel Marquez at Columbia University proceeding, thanks so much for staying on top of these live protests from coast to coast in the United States, from New York to Austin, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles.

Plus, I'm going to be joined live by the director for Jewish student life at Columbia University. He says he's been trying to work with administrators for months on these issues. What he hopes to see happen next? That's ahead.

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TAPPER: And we are continuing to follow breaking news across the country as student protests get heated you're looking at the scene moments ago at the University of Texas in Austin.

Let's bring in CNN national security correspondent Josh Campbell, coincidentally, an alum of UT Austin.

Josh, what we're seeing at UT Austin. Is this a typical police response?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, compared to other police action that we've seen across the country, the certainly appears to be an escalation. And contrary to, for example, what's happening at Columbia, it appears as though the police there on the campus don't want any type of encampment to get established, perhaps for fear that that would then spread into a larger campus, the area where this is happening on the south mall is the exact place where commencement takes place.

And so, it looks like there appears that they're trying to prevent what happened in Columbia University. But I will tell you that compared to last week where we solved for 60 people that were arrested there at UT-Austin, this appears to be a much more contemplated effort by authorities rather than just rushing in and doing arrest. What we actually saw with first the local police as well as the campus police move in and then Texas state troopers as well, who essentially are providing force protection for those local office misters has a methodically have gone through this makeshift camp in order to try to take people into custody.

Of course, a big question, will they be arrested? Or are they just being detained? And obviously, all sides hoping that this will continue to be done peacefully of authorities have certainly made the decision that they're not going to let this campus set up there.

TAPPER: Who makes the decisions in situations like this? The reason I ask is because the response we're seeing here, it looks a lot like the response that we saw at Emory University. And I'm wondering if there's just a regional way. That differs in Texas and Georgia from how we see other university campuses handle these kinds of protests, like for instance, the blowback we saw when Columbia did it with NYPD.

Who makes the decision?

CAMPBELL: Yeah, it's a really good question and this is all happening, of course, in this political atmosphere as well. Last week after that incident, UT Austin, we saw the Republican governor of Texas come out and essentially call these people criminals, saying that they're going to be arrested. Of course, the Texas state troopers worked for the governor.

In this instance, what you're seeing is the concept of mutual aid. That is, you know, the University of Texas Police Department, just over 100 sworn officers to protect multiple campuses there in the Austin area. And so, if there's an incident, they will call upon Austin police. This is happening just blocks from the Texas state capital where state troopers have a detachment there. And so they would be on standby and able to come in and assist.

But you have an on-scene commander who will make the ultimate call about when we're going to go in. What is that going to be the ultimate goal here? But at least it seems like they learned a lot compared to last week, where this seems to be more structured.

The goal is, again, just based on them in circling this group and then taking them out one by one. They're trying to eliminate this makeshift camp, but you don't see a lot of the confrontation that we saw last week, Jake.

TAPPER: Where is the line of criminality here? Because obviously in the United States and presumably a college campuses, there is a degree of free speech. There is a history of protest where, where is it that all of a sudden police get involved? That's when they set up camps?

CAMPBELL: Well, it's a great question and certainly the history of the United States and on college campuses, as you mentioned, being able to publicly demonstrate is very important. It is worth pointing out, however, that regardless of where one comes down on this larger global conflict, there was no First Amendment right in the U.S. to protest on private property. And so both at UT Austin and indeed at campuses across the country, what we've seen are the universities decide, the administrators and the board of directors that we want these groups of trespassers dispersed.

And that's where the police come in. It's typically a misdemeanor type crime. It's worth pointing out last week, though 60 people that are a local prosecutors and Austin ended up dismissing all of those charges.

And so, yet to be seen, what the penalty will be here, whether these people actually be placed under arrest or cited. We have seeing Columbia University, for example, threatened to suspend individuals. So, there was certainly a potential academic penalty for those who remain even when they're told to disperse.

[16:20:08]

But, again, yet to be seen what law enforcement the does as far as any type of criminal charges, its also worth pointing out, Jake, that of all those law enforcement officers that I spoke of a second ago, all the different agencies, they don't have enough police officers to completely surround this campus indefinitely. So the big question were all watching, will this be some type of deterrent here, with law enforcement coming in or will we see this repeated over and over again?

And then finally, it's worth pointing out that obviously the process textures here are trying to make their voices heard when we've heard time and again, that many Jewish students on campuses across the country are saying that they don't feel safe. This image that you're seeing there in Austin, this is what's called the south mall. This is surrounded by academic buildings.

I went it to several of these buildings when I was at UT Austin there. And so, presumably, the administrators one classes to go on. You have students there who wanted to get an education without being disruptive and certainly a lot of the antisemitic material and slogans that we've heard in certain colleges as well.

So, there's certainly a balance in order to try to protect free speech while also trying to ensure that everyone feels safe when they actually go to the college campus. TAPPER: Well, let me ask you about that because I have heard from

people affiliated with universities including Columbia that they are concerned about outside groups, specifically NGOs that are not only explicitly anti-Israel, they don't think Israel has the right to exist, but explicitly, were applauding the Hamas attacks on October 7, and are up the ideology that killing any Israeli is justified.

And I certainly don't think that's what most of these protesters think, but I'm wondering what -- given the concerns that I've heard from university administrators on that subject, how realistic an issue is that?

CAMPBELL: Well, this is a dicey subject for law enforcement in the particularly when it comes to investigating First Amendment type protected activity in general, when we talk about protests and demonstrations striations, and both the FBI, for example, the FBI director recently said, look, we're not monitoring protest. We're obviously poised to assist if there's any type of violence.

But same goes for the Department of Homeland Security and other law enforcement agencies. And the reason I bring that up is because to this question about who is organizing this, who was putting this all together? Again, that is a very fine line for law enforcement to walk when they're trying to determine -- well, who are these people? That's one thing.

It's much different to launch some investigation trying to determine where their support is coming from because none of that is inherently illegal in and of itself. It is important to know whether people on campus or students are not particularly if it comes to the disciplinary part on campus. Again, you want to know who you're going to suspend whether these are outside agitators, NYPD, for example, their deputy commissioner recently said that they are seeing what he called outside agitators, quote, professional protesters that go to event after event, sometimes protesting various sides of different issues.

So that is certainly a concern of law enforcement from a perspective of keeping an area safe and secure, particularly once they're on locked down but investigating that very difficult.

TAPPER: Josh Campbell, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Right now at Columbia University in the face of the Columbia administration's commitment to suspend or even expel student protesters who stayed in that makeshift encampment pass 2:00 p.m. Eastern today, students are still there in the encampment digging in, saying, quote, we will not be moved by these intimidation tactics, unquote.

Joining us now to discuss is Brian Cohen. He is the executive director of the Kraft Center for Jewish Student Life at Columbia.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Let me start with the basic question. What is it like for Jewish students? The average Jewish student at Columbia or Barnard right now on that campus?

BRIAN COHEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, KRAFT CENTER FOR JEWISH STUDENT LIFE AT COLUMBIA: Jake, thanks for having me.

Look, this is a university that typically has one of the most vibrant and active Jewish communities in the country. At the Kraft Center alone, we serve 1,500 Jewish students on an annual basis. Those students right now are really struggling many of them decided to pack up and leave and spent a few days away from campus because the situation on campus, it's -- there's bedlam.

I came from campus just a couple of hours ago saw what was happening. The university was blocked. The protesters are all throughout the campus community. We're talking about 100 feet from the residence halls, 50 feet from the dorms.

As you reporter said earlier, this is the last day of classes tomorrow, starts the reading period and then final exams. Students just cannot concentrate.

TAPPER: Is the Columbia University administration failing not only the safety of Jewish students, but just the academic experience of everyone, all students except for the ones that are protesting?

[16:25:02]

CAMPBELL: Look, classes have already been moved online. Students cannot get in and out of a library. For months, we have been asking the university to clarify its rules to enforce its rules and to put consequences on students, as they repeatedly have not followed the university's guidelines.

This has just snowballed over time, and to what, we're seeing today.

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about the lines and the rules because, as you know, you know, feelings about what is happening in Gaza right now and how Prime Minister Netanyahu was handling the war are strong all over the world including in Israel where there are protests, right now. And I think there were water cannons applied on families of hostages who are saying Netanyahu is not doing enough to get the hostages home, who he needs to settle on some sort of deal to get them home and not as much on the offensive in Rafah.

I -- obviously, that is different from what's going on at Columbia. But where -- where do you see people crossing the line?

COHEN: Jake, I've been on this campus since 2012. This has never been about what is currently happening in Israel. This is not about the war with Hamas in Gaza. This is not about an occupation. This is about students inspired by their faculty who fundamentally disagree with the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. That's number one.

Number two, its been obvious to anyone who's paying attention that students and faculty members are trying to send a message that Zionists, Jewish students, Israelis, do not belong on this campus. The Zionist, the Jews, Israelis were not going anywhere. But repeatedly, this is why student activists on campus have

repeatedly targeted the admitted student events on campus, handed out material. It's based on what we see online with Jews being compared to roaches, for Zionists go home, Zionist, not welcome. These are the chants that are getting repeated over and over and over again.

An unfortunately, few at our community, our standing up for those Israelis, Zionist and Jews on campus. Multiple people have told me that on a recent town hall meeting with arts and sciences faculty, this is the faculty who teach our undergraduate students, that there was one professor, one professor on the entire call who expressed concern about arise in antisemitism. One out of 500 were willing to speak out and say yes, there's a problem on this campus.

It doesn't matter where you fall politically. The idea that professors will not stand up and recognize that there's been an increase in antisemitism is a total joke.

TAPPER: Is -- do you think there is a double standard when it comes to calls for violence? Or I don't have to put, ostracization -- ostracizing of Jewish students versus any other minority group?

I think a lot of people were surprised, for example, to find out that that student who had said, or I guess former student now who had said that Zionists don't deserve to live, that those quotes were made in months ago. I think in January in a conference call or a Zoom meeting with college administrators that they, meaning the student, simultaneously live streamed on Instagram.

I mean, that -- I was surprised to hear that because I would think anybody is saying that any group of people, based on their ideology, don't deserve to live would be a one-way ticket back home for any student.

But apparently, that didn't offend the university disciplinary committee or whomever they were talking to.

COHEN: Yeah, I think to some degree, there's a double standard, but there's also a long history at Columbia of not wanting to discipline students for any reason. The university senate, which is a body primarily of faculty members, has been very hesitant to move forward with any type of adjudication process against our students.

We know that the faculty make everything incredibly difficult. What were seeing today on campus is the addition of the union being present and the large numbers that are surrounding the encampment are primarily from the union, but it's the faculty who have nothing to lose, these tenured faculty who think that they're not going to get fired, they're not going to be suspended.

And it's these poor students who are out there who are inspired by their professors and risk being suspended and eventually potentially expelled from Columbia University.

[16:30:04]

TAPPER: Which faculty members are you specifically talking about?

COHEN: I'm not getting into names, but there you can see repeatedly on Twitter, on PBS, on their articles, these are professors who have indicated publicly that Israelis don't belong on campus, that there is no place.

Well, I'm about to say what few at the university are willing to the Israeli community at Columbia University students, faculty, staff is incredibly important. We appreciate them, we love them, we admire them, and they make Columbia University a better place.

TAPPER: Do you have confidence in President Shafik, the president of Columbia University, to handle this campus and provide a safe environment for all students to learn as well as exercising their First Amendment rights?

COHEN: Jake, this is goes way beyond President Shafik. I had been sending messages to the administration, the entire senior administration at Columbia University since October 7th. It was easy to see what would transpire. Anyone with any familiarity of the student activists on campus knew what would happen if the rules were not set. They were not clarified, and if they were not enforced, and that's exactly what were seeing today.

TAPPER: Do you think of the rules had been enforced in other words, peaceful protest, but not protests that goes into hate speech and not protest, that becomes, I guess what the college considers trespassing -- do you think of those rules had been set early, things would be different on campus right now?

COHEN: Yeah. Well, we asked the university to do from the very beginning was two-fold. One, to set the rules and two was to meet regularly, engage with the students who are impacted on all sides. We asked the university leadership to meet with Israeli students, as well as students from Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.

Not only would that be the right thing to do to say, what do you need from us? But my hope was that if they met early and often, there would be some accountability to our students if they had to look the president or a vice president in the eyes once a week, maybe they would be less willing to go and break the rules.

And Jake, I know your reporter references before in an earlier segment this is not about free speech.

This is about giving our students the right to an education if the students popped up today and came back tomorrow at noon within the rules of safe demonstration, I'd have no problem. They could say whatever they want, as long as they didn't violate harassment law. If they want to hold up a sign saying Yahya Sinwar for president 2024, that's fine. Most of those students should probably look them up on Google before they hold that sign up. So they actually understand who he is and what he stands for. But that's their business.

This is not about that. This is about protests going on 24/7 for weeks and weeks and weeks. Our students are unable to study. They're unable to enter their dorms right now. They're unable to enter the library right now. Something has to give.

TAPPER: The last thing I just want to ask you about, Brian, and thanks so much for being so generous with your time is -- I mean, this is a university setting. It seems like such an incredible opportunity for students to learn kern about the crisis in the Middle East, which predates October 7, which predates 1972, which predates 1948, which goes back centuries and centuries.

And yet when I hear and I have no idea if it was a student or not, I hear somebody yell at Jewish students, go back to Poland I think, wow, this person is ignorant, not just antisemitic, but ignorant. That's just a demonstration that they don't know what they're talking about. If they think Israel is populated by Polish Jews, or if they think Poland before 1948 was a particularly hospitable place for Jews.

Why is that not happening? Why is the university not seizing this as an opportunity for students on all sides of this incredibly contentious issue to learn?

COHEN: I think what's happening is that a small group on campus is essentially hijacking the university's ability to do anything productive. We've seen this time and time again with various university initiatives programs, lectures that tried to bring people together. I was in Lowe Library at Columbia University today when an Israeli dean was meeting with her counterpart of Palestinian dean from Princeton university and they didn't agree on all issues or even close to that, but they were coming together to be in dialogue.

I was at that session and I can tell you that students stood outside the door banging on the door trying to get in to prevent that type of dialogue from happening on campus.

[16:35:02]

Enough is enough. We cannot let a small group hijack this university. There's such vitriol around this country today and around the world. Columbia University needs to return to what it once was -- a place to engage, to discuss, to debate.

We don't need to agree with one another, but we need to listen and hear each other out. And argue with one another in respectful ways.

TAPPER: Brian Cohen, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.

Something we've been discussing and university officials are grappling with, when did these protests possibly cross over into criminal activity? Do students have an ultimate and unrestrained right to free speech on campus? I'm going to pose all these questions the First Amendment attorney, next.

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TAPPER: From Columbia University to University of Texas-Austin, to now countless American campuses, university leaders grappling with how to balance students' First Amendment rights to protest with the need for schools to protect other students, as well as university property. Let's bring in Alex Morey. She's a First Amendment attorney and

director of Campus Rights Advocacy for the Foundation of Individual Rights and Expression, aka FIRE.

[16:40:04]

Alex, as you see from the images from Austin at UT, what stands out to you?

ALEX MOREY, CAMPUS RIGHTS ADVOCACY DIRECTOR, FOUNDATION FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS & EXPRESSION: Well, look, these are incredibly difficult moments. We, as, you free speech people never want to see campus peaceful protest devolved into violence. We had what happened at Columbia, where students are ostensibly engaging in civil disobedience, being removed by police. Of course, with the shadow of potential viewpoint discrimination.

You've got Minouche Shafik speaking before Congress suggesting she's looking to punish maybe some pro-Palestinian protected speech. Then we see what's happening on campuses like UT-Austin where it's a public campus. Protest has an extra layer of protection from state law and we've got the governor preempting -- preemptively shutting down and sending in authorities to shut down peaceful protests.

So, definitely a bit of a mixed bag here. And obviously, as we do with FIRE, we want administrators people in charge, even the governor, in every situation to be looking at the facts and protecting peaceful protest whenever possible.

TAPPER: Where is the line and let me ask a question from the, what, Richard Nixon, might call the silent majority. What about the right of students who just want to go to college and enjoy commencement without thinking about the horrible activity, is going on in any part of the world?

MOREY: Well, you know, they've got the right to go to class. I wouldn't necessarily agree that they have the right to be totally free from to go to school in a bubble, right? Especially on public college campuses, or campuses like Columbia that promised free speech. Part of a liberal education is, is having that diversity of voices, viewpoint, diversity on campus. So that's something, you know, that's a feature, not a bug, right, of a liberal education.

That said, we've definitely seen situations like where protesters are linking arms, prohibiting people from going to classes or taking over indoor areas because of campus vandalizing. That's not protected speech, but the good news is that even schools like private schools like Columbia that aren't necessarily bound by the First Amendment, they have long had First Amendment like policies that protect a really wide range of speech, even speech that some students find really hateful or offense, and these schools also have policies that don't allow unprotected speech, things like truth threats, things like discriminatory harassment, that meet the objective legal standards. Those things can still be punished.

But what we've heard a lot in recent weeks, our calls to punish protected in speech, even from bodies like congressional committees. And that is incredibly troubling.

TAPPER: All right, good stuff.

Thank you so much, Alex Morey, director of the Campus Advocacy Program at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression or FIRE. Thanks so much.

Next, we're going to go to live, live to Los Angeles, where protesters have taken their marches into buildings on the UCLA campus.

Our breaking news coverage continues in just a moment.

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[16:47:16]

TAPPER: We're back now with a breaking news this hour. Protests and arrests right now at college campuses across the country. At UCLA, in Los Angeles, where police made arrest Sunday as protesters broke barriers. Demonstrators back on campus today, marching and moving inside some buildings.

CNN's Nick Watt is at UCLA.

Nick, what buildings are they going into? Are they classrooms? Are they administration buildings? What's the latest?

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, current situation here is we have this in common, which has been growing since Thursday of the pro-Palestinian protesters Royce Hall. You see there is one of the most iconic buildings on campus.

Protesters have been on the move marching through there and let me explain why we are at this particular juncture. This -- we're not allowed into the encampment -- the encampment protesters control that. We're also now not allowed across here. The university controls this.

On the other side of this, we have just a handful of pro-Israeli protesters today. And, Tom, if you pan around they yesterday afternoon, set up a screen playing testimonies and images from October 7 to make their point, it is loud.

And so the university, right now trying to balance three things. They say free speech, the safety of its students and also their core mission, which is to educate and for people to learn. It is a difficult balancing act because over the weekend, there was a barrier between the incumbent and the counter protesters. By the way, there are students and outsiders on both sides and both sides have been behaving pretty badly at points.

So over the weekend, the protesters from both sides managed to breach that barricade, security officers on bicycles, riot, campus police dress and right gear had to come in and separate. And that's why we now have this buffer zone.

It's not easy piece. The students want divestment. This college says that they're not going to divest. So who knows where this ends? And nobody is actually talking to each other. They're just shouting at each other -- Jake.

All right. Nick Watt. Thanks so much.

Coming up next, we're taking a closer look at the challenges university officials are facing credit balance, keen keeping campuses safe and free antisemitism with the rights of students to protest legitimate issues on campus. Stay with us.

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[16:53:26]

TAPPER: Sticking with our national lead, and the protests causing unrest on college campuses from coast to coast across the United States, colleges and university administration struggling with how to keep the situations under control.

CNN legal analyst Carrie Cordero joins me now.

Carrie, how do you see the way colleges and universities are responding to these protests?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think there's a big difference across the different universities and colleges that we're seeing. I think in the -- in the example of Columbia, perhaps what happened is that they allow the students to have the encampments on campus, which may have been not really in accordance with the university's policies for a longer time. And then when it started to get the situation out of control students were being harassed and so forth. Then they tried to bring it back and its much harder to bring the situation under control once they have allowed it to continue for some time.

TAPPER: Help explain the difficult balance administrators have here when it comes to protecting free speech, and also being able to provide a safe and secure learning environment for everyone.

CORDERO: Absolutely. So the universities have to do all of those things. They have to protect the safety and the security of the students and faculty on campus and provide an environment that allows them to be safe while they're on campus and they're going to school and they're doing what their businesses a few there.

And also, the universities have to adhere to free speech principles. Now, there is a real difference between the public universities in the private university the public universities cannot have rules that violate the First Amendment.

[16:55:03]

The private universities have a little bit more discretion. Now, they're tradition is to adhere in principle to First Amendment and to strongly respect First Amendment rights. But the private universities do have a little bit more leeway to bring more control to the situation, than have a little bit more flexibility than the public universities.

TAPPER: Talking about the difficulty a university administrative might have with a student standing up in front of the encampment as happened at Columbia and talking about how great October 7th was and how that was just resistance and praising the freedom fighters who died that day, who were obviously asleep terrorist with Hamas.

That is First Amendment protected speech. What does it administrator do about that?

CORDERO: So, it's First Amendment protected speech, even if it is abhorrent. And, Jake, you are taking me back as opposed to 9/11 counterterrorism lawyer to the era where I cannot remember any scenario where people were protesting in support of a terrorist organization. But the job of the administrators and law enforcement is to protect the First Amendment expression and the safety of the protestors themselves, while also protecting the safety of the wider school community.

TAPPER: Well, that's what I'm saying. If somebody is praising the actions of a terrorist group that has the murder of Jews in its original charter that is certainly protected by the First Amendment. I would also say it creates at least arguably a hostile environment for Jewish students and faculty.

CORDERO: Right and that's where a private university in my judgment, has more flexibility to have disciplinary matters cannot tolerate that type of activity on their campus.

TAPPER: Carrie Cordero, thanks so much.

Coming up next, an update from college campuses across the country. We've seen arrests at protests at the University of Texas in Austin, protesters defying an ultimatum at Columbia University. Our reporters are live on scene and our breaking news coverage continues in just moments.

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