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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Americans Released From Russia To Land In U.S. Tonight; Evan Gershkovich Released From Russia In Prisoner; Vice President Harris Speaks About Prisoner Swap; Vance Defends Trump For Falsely Suggesting Kamala Harris "Happened To Turn Black". Aired 4-5p ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:01]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Evan Gershkovich, Paul Whelan, and Alsu Kurmasheva are expected to land on U.S. soil this evening the deal is in enormous relief for their families. Paul Whelan's brother, David saying in a statement, quote, it is vital that he be given agency over his life again, something the Kremlin took away for so many years.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And also among those freed, Russian American journalist Alsu Kurmasheva. Tomorrow, by the way, as her daughter Miriam's 13th birthday which the president acknowledged today at the White House saying happy birthday, and all these families will be together again, like they should have been all again, all along tonight in the U.S.

THE LEAD with Jake Tapper starts right now.

(MUSIC)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Phil Mattingly, in for Jake Tapper.

And we start with the breaking news in our world lead. Right now, detained Americans Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan are just hours away from landing in the United States where the president and vice president will greet them as they walked off the plane and back onto American soil. Their freedom results of the largest swap prisoners since the Cold War, 24 people in seven countries, the dramatic exchange unfolding on a tarmac in Turkey today.

You take a look at this image of six planes from the countries involved in the deal, lined up next to one another, ready to trade, in some cases, innocents for a convicted murderer.

President Biden met with the families of the released American hostages before addressing the country in this momentous deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The deal that made this possible was a feat of diplomacy, and friendship, friendship. Multiple countries help get this done. Everybody stepped up. Poland stepped up. Slovenia stepped up. Turkey stepped up, and it matters to have relationships.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That feat of diplomacy marks the end of a nightmare that's lasted for more than five years for former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan and more than a year for American "Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich. American Russian journalist Alsu Kurmasheva, and Russian activist Vladimir Kara-Murza are also so on their way to the United States.

While in return, Russia got what one us official described as its, quote, biggest fish, former FSB colonel and Russian assassin Vadim Krasikov, who was serving a life sentence in Germany for murdering someone in broad daylight. In addition, Moscow got back several others accused of spying or cybercrime. Some of those Russian prisoners just landed in Moscow. You see them there, personally greeted by Russian Leader Vladimir Putin.

This as incredible new details about the painstaking behind the scenes work to free the Americans comes to light, including secret overseas trips by CIA operatives and Director Bill Burns. President Biden working the phones with his Slovenian counterpart to secure a final piece of the deal, just an hour before he decided to drop out of the presidential race.

And Vice President Kamala Harris's private conversations with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz on the sidelines of a February conference in Munich where White House officials tell CNN, she pressed the importance of Germany releasing Krasikov in exchange for the others.

Here at THE LEAD, we are sending our deepest and most heartfelt congratulations to the families of Evan, Paul, and Alsu, all of whom Jake has interviewed here on this show.

We'll bring in assistant editor at "The Wall Street Journal", Paul Beckett, who joins us now.

Paul, note of personal privilege. My thanks and appreciation for Jake, who was constantly over the course of the last ten months refusing to let anyone including myself forget about Evan, my colleague Jenny Hansler, who's done the same with Paul Whelan with her reporting.

But it was your team, your operation, you personally who refused to let people forget that this was happening, that Evan was still there. I guess I would start -- have you spoken with Evan or his family yet today?

PAUL BECKETT, ASSISTANT EDITOR, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Thanks very much, Phil, and really right back at you guys with CNN, along with so many of our colleagues in the media and its been phenomenal in standing up for Evan and speaking for him when he was not. So, we're extremely grateful.

I have been in touch with his sister, Danielle, to just -- said by texts that they were just on the moon. They're waiting for Evan to land and return for space in a few hours. And over here at "The Journal", we're -- just joy, relief, smiles and tears, same time. And not just us, you know, unbelievable to think what is going through their minds and the minds of the other families being reunited today.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, I -- to be candid, I don't think I can even get my head around what everyone must be feeling at this moment in time the complicated nature of this deal. I think there were so many kind of fits and starts. Okay. Maybe there's progress, maybe everything's fallen apart over the course of the last year. When did you know that this was going to get done?

BECKETT: When he put his seat on the tarmac in Ankara. You know, we held off publishing anything until we knew that Evan was out of Russian custody.

[16:05:04]

And we determined that moment to be when he was off that plane. So anything could have gone wrong up to that moment, I'd say last couple of weeks, we've been getting more positive indications.

But we just had to have faith. We've been -- you know, we'd seen deals discovered in the past. We've seen proposed deals fall apart. So just you huge relief when this is one that got done.

MATTINGLY: I'm glad you mentioned the timing because there had been reporting -- there's some chatter about this last night. There had been some reports from other news organizations. I think "The Journal" was maybe one of the last news organizations to actually post that this was happening.

And you guys are known for speed, which I found I found very notable when you're news alert pop, when your story popped. You've been working full time on leading "The Journal's" efforts to secure Evan's release. Now that Evan is free, "The Journal" posted a bunch of stories today, but there's one in particular that's just extraordinary, detailing the secret efforts to free Evan.

Tell people about those.

BECKETT: Well, you get a sense from reading that, that there was so many moving parts to this. So, the Russians going back. There were Germans coming out. There were three Americans coming out. It was Vladimir Kara-Murza, of course, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist who has a green card.

So it was a multi-prisoner, multi-country, multi government deal. We're extremely grateful to President Biden, his administration for the negotiations.

But as you heard him say, Germany, Slovenia, Poland, they -- Norway, they put people into the trade, lots of other allied government supporters along the way. So, you know, it's historic day. We feel for the Americans left behind. We know there are still Americans in Russia in prison, and I think one of the things that I know the U.S. government will be working on next is how to take away the incentives from these rogue regimes of snatching American citizens and effectively holding them hostage.

MATTINGLY: Yes, its a trade-off to what has been a dramatic shift, I think in policy in this administration in terms of what they're willing to do to try and secure the release of hostages. But, obviously, Vladimir Putin, to some degree has taken advantage of that clearly over the course of the last year or two.

I do have to ask, there is a kicker in your story, this amazing story that I urge everybody to go read, where there was a form that Evan had to fill out asking for clemency. It's kind of a procedural technocratic form before he was freed.

And at the end of that, beyond doing it kind of perfect Russian of which he's a speaker, he asked Putin for an interview, if I read that correctly, which is just extraordinary.

Explain that to people.

BECKETT: I didn't just the last -- latest example of what an extraordinary report and person Evan is and we've got to know his family very well in the last 16 months. So, it's -- yeah, no surprise to us that he's an incredible human being, given how wonderful they are but it has been his fortitude and his presence of mine really, to think. What do I want my words to the man that put me in prison for no reasons 16 months ago to be, and that's what he comes up with.

I mean, we've been inspired by that for the last 16 months and I'm sure continued to pay going forward.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, I think editors because everywhere were cheering in that moment. You know, it's - Evan's mom is clearly extraordinary as well. I think we've known that over the course of the last year this story just puts that into amazing detail.

For you personally, you've been working towards this day, anticipating this moment for a very long time. How are you feeling?

BECKETT: Everything at once. You think, you know, just really, really happy that he's back, being reunited with his family in a few hours and that so many others are as well as 16 families being reunited today are delighted for Alsu, were delighted for Paul, delighted for Vladimir, were delighted for all the Germans.

And we've hearts full of gratitude for all support. It's been overwhelming.

MATTINGLY: I do want to ask you before I let you go about Evan's mom. I referenced it, based on the story. Tell people about her role here.

BECKETT: Well, she has been so determined. She's obviously a Russian speakers as she was monitoring everything what was happening in Russia from their home in Philadelphia all of this time. So she would be telling us what a Russian chatter was about, what was happening with Evan and others.

You know, she was investigating and there were key moments where she herself carried messages between some of the principals here.

[16:10:07]

I know she had a very meaningful meeting with President Biden back at the White House Correspondents Association Dinner in April of 2023. And I think she is really such an effective messenger and a supporter for her son, that she sorts of an irresistible force.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, it's an incredible moment for them, an incredible number for you guys, I think everybody in our line of work has been waiting for this moment as well, but no group more so, at least professionally, than you and your colleagues over "The Journal". We've all been thinking about rooting for, praying for over the course of the last year. We're grateful we're finally at this moment.

And, Paul, I'd been grateful to be able to speak to you a number of times over the course last year, I'm very much appreciate what you guys have been able to do in support of Evan to finally reach this moment.

Paul Beckett at "The Wall Street Journal", thanks so much.

BECKETT: Thank you. This is your success as well. So we appreciate it.

MATTINGLY: Well, the White House calls the deal the, quote, most complex prisoner swap in history. So, what was going on behind the scenes in the months, weeks, days and hours before it went down? Our reporters are working their sources to bring you some really incredible details.

Plus, what Paul Whelan told CNN just a few weeks ago about what kept him going during his toughest days behind bars.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:16]

MATTINGLY: We are back with that breaking news, the Americans released in the largest hostage swap since the Cold War expected back on U.S. soil around 11:30 p.m. tonight. The president and vice president expected to meet them as they walk off the plane.

Evan Gershkovich, Paul Whelan, Alsu Kurmasheva all getting ready to touch down on American soil, and finally hug their families.

I want to get straight to CNN's experts -- experts, Jennifer Hansler, Jill Dougherty, and Jim Sciutto.

This is a remarkable moment, and, Jim, not just in the complexity of the deal which I can't even fathom trying to get this many countries on this meeting everything, even how to get the planes there seems complicated to me but also the fact that the deal could happen at all, that underscores a shift in the administrations policy and what they are willing to do to try and free hostages that before 2021 wasn't a thing that you -- you could see.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think you're right and also these two powers, which are very much in conflict, Russia and the U.S. in multiple, on multiple fronts around the world. Certainly in Ukraine, but in the cyber space, in Russia, constantly pushing the limits of murder on European soil, right? A whole host of ways to undermine the U.S., all ways which are escalating that you can still have conversations like this, which is, which is evocative of the Cold War, frankly, when you had again the USSR and the U.S. very much at loggerheads, but still able to negotiate deals like this. And this is the first -- this is the biggest one since the Cold War.

So you still have those discussions and that's important. You know, you still have channels open. That's -- maybe you can call that a sliver of light in this just in terms of that relationship, but also to your point, the complexity is truly remarkable because it wasn't just the U.S. and Russia. The U.S. had to get six allies on the same page to give up things they didn't want to give up.

Germany did not want to give up understandably a convicted murderer who was an FSB assassin who carried out a murder in broad daylight and on German soil, right? They did not want to do that. Norway gave up a detainee and did not get a detainee in return as Germany did.

So it shows that these relationships, and I think this is something that President Biden deliberately highlighted from the White House, that these relationships in these alliances are not purely transactional, that they're part of a long-term relationship. We work together because we trust each other when you know that over time, it's in our interest to do so.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, and one anecdote being Olaf Scholz telling Biden, for you, I will do this.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: It was a very personal thing there.

Jenny, I've been wanting to text you all day. I want to leave you alone. I figured you're a little bit busy.

And the reason why for those who may not be aware you were kind of Paul Whelan's outlet before -- if something was happening with Paul Whelan, what he was thinking, what he was going through, including after Brittney Griner was released and he was not included in the deal in large part because of the assassin that was being held in Germany. He talked to you.

You talked to him last month. What did he tell you?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMETN REPORTER: So, we actually spoke twice last month, though. He called me on 4th of July. He would often call on major milestones and he was saying, you know, this is another holiday that I'm marking in this Russian detention after 5-1/2 years.

And he sounded a bit downtrodden, but he actually had some optimism in his voice. He felt like there were efforts underway by the U.S. to secure his release. Now, I want to play you a little bit of what he told me.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

PAUL WHELAN, AMERICAN RELEASED FROM RUSSIA: It's tiresome sometimes but the things that keep me going are the fact that, you know, these people in the government are working towards my freedom, that my family is supporting me, my friends are supporting me, and that people like you are willing to pay attention to what I have to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HANSLER: So he very much felt in that conversation that you had not been forgotten and then he called me again about two weeks ago when Evan was convicted to those 16 years in a maximum security prison on these false charges of espionage and he said he felt that this may be he would open the gates for negotiations to go forward. We know in the past the Russians have wanted a conviction before they would move forward on any sort of deal, any sort of trade. So he saw this as a promising sign. And of course that is in fact what came to pass with the release that we saw today.

MATTINGLY: And thankfully so because they've been promising signs in the past, they hadn't always come -- they hadn't come from fruition until this moment.

Jill, we are talking about this before the show as we're watching video of Vladimir Putin greeting the Russians who were released as part of this. What's his -- what's his endgame here? What does he get out of this?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that's a good question getting into his mind a little difficult but I think Russia has really changed in the past two years. I was there the major invasion happened of Ukraine.

[16:20:00]

It is a different place. It is a war time feeling is totally militarized. So you look at the way they're already dealing, you know, our heroes come home. These are KGB, we say KGB, FSB, bad murderers, assassins. They say, these are heroes who are fighting for the fatherland. So he can, you know, positively say these are good guys.

Now, the Russians who left, you know, people who were in the opposition, he can say they are traitors and Putin believes that the worst scum in the world, I hate to say that, are traitors, who they deserve to be killed and I looked at some comments by Dmitry Medvedev, the former president of Russia, who said, today that -- well, you know what normally happens, and I'd prefer this is this is almost a quote, as if they rot behind bars or they croak in prison. So this is the mood that what they're saying to their people is look, we -- you know, what these traders are out of the country great.

And then for him, I guess I'm some scoring of points with being able to do something with other countries, you know, Mr. Diplomat, et cetera, that could be part of it.

MATTINGLY: I got to say, Medvedev's journey has been remarkable into whatever caricature he decides to play regularly now.

Jim, what does this change when it comes to kind of Putin's policy of hostage diplomacy? There's still an American that was mentioned today that's over there. What happens next?

SCIUTTO: It'll continue because it works, right? I mean, yes, he's given up these Americans, but in return, he got a FSB agent out of Germany, which is important to him because he wants to continue to recruit FSB agents.

For Brittney Griner who was carrying a speck of cannabis, right got the biggest arms dealer in the world right out. So, so for him to collect a journalist doing his job like Evan or others works for him as trade capital to get folks he wants out of the West.

And by the way, it's not just Russia that does this. Iran and China do it. When, for instance, Canada took a Huawei executive for extradition to the U.S., China picked up two Canadians in China and later there was a swap. It -- Iran does quite similar.

It works, and that's something we all need to be conscious of, that these powers are doing this increasingly, and it puts sadly Americans at risk when they traveled to these countries. And it's the reason behind, you know, these State Department warning.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, it sounds straight, listen to the warnings.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: I think its really important point here.

I appreciate you guys very much.

Jenny, your work has been extraordinary.

HENSLER: Thanks, Phil.

MATTINGLY: And its been really, really important. And I know that Paul and what "The Journal" has been doing, but Paul Whelan, in this moment and knowing everything that was going on behind the scenes, it's really been I think a service to our covered certain but I think Paul Whelan's case as well.

Again, he will be landing with Evan Gershkovich and others at Andrews Air Force Base at 11:30 p.m. tonight.

Today, the U.S. confirmed this deal almost happened a few months ago and would have included prominent Putin critic Alexei Navalny who died in a Russian prison before he could walk free. His family's reaction to today's news, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:27:07]

MATTINGLY: We continue with our world lead and the breaking news of the prisoner swap that secured the freedom of, among others, Americans Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan. The Gershkovich family just released a statement saying in part, quote, we have waited 491 days for Evan's release and it's hard to describe what today feels like. We can't wait to give him the biggest hug, and see his sweet and brave smile up close.

Most important now is taking care of Evan and being together again, no family should have to go through this and so we share relief, and joy today with Paul and Alsu's family.

Now, earlier today, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan told reporters the U.S. had been working on an earlier iteration of a deal that would have included Russian dissident Alexei Navalny. But then he died in prison in February.

CNN's Clarissa Ward covered Navalny extensively, joins us now from Tel Aviv.

Clarissa, I was surprised to hear how much Jake said about where things were before Alexei Navalny's death. Do we know anything more about how close this came to actually getting across the finish line?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, Phil, because I was in communication with Yulia Navalnaya's team and others who were very closely working towards Alexei's release as part of this broader swap and really up until his death, which came as a huge shock just so many, there was a deep sense of optimism that this deal was going to be pulled off, that there were many different moving parts, but that all of the stars might just align in such a way that would allow for Navalny to be released, along with the others who we saw today.

And I think it's a demonstrator striation of the huge heart of the Navalny family that they released this statement today saying that they wept with tears of joy to see Vladimir Kara-Murza, Evan Gershkovich, Paul Whelan and all the others who were released as part of today to be finally free. But there's no question as well that there is some sadness that comes with that, that there is sadness that comes with knowing that Alexei Navalny could have been among them.

As Yulia said -- Yulia Navalnaya, his widow, in her post, Alexei was supposed to be one of them, but Putin killed him and the -- and this is the belief of those in the Navalny camp his supporters, that essentially Vladimir Putin murdered Alexei Navalny, to take him off the table as a bargaining chip or as a potential candidate to be part of this swap because of the nature of the threat that he posed to Putin, because it was so deeply personal for Putin, because of how Alexei Navalny had repeatedly embarrassed and humiliated the --

MATTINGLY: Clarissa, I hate to interrupt you, but the Vice President Kamala Harris is speaking now.

Take a listen. [16:30:04]

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Paul, Evan, Alsu, and green cardholder Vladimir, who were unjustly held in Russia, will soon be reunited with their loved ones. They and their families have shown incredible courage in the face of atrocious and devastating circumstances.

Russian authorities arrested, convicted them in sham trials and sentenced them to long prison terms. This has been an appalling perversion of justice. Over many years, President Biden and I and our team have engaged in complex diplomatic negotiations to bring these wrongly detained Americans home. We never stopped fighting for their release.

And today, in spite of all of their suffering, it gives me great comfort to know that their horrible ordeal is finally over. This exchange also includes the release of Russian political prisoners, including those who worked with Alexei Navalny.

Earlier today, I spoke with Alexei's widow Yulia to discuss the significance of their release, and as I told her, this being an additional time from previous conversations with her, the United States stands with all of those who are fighting for freedom in Russia.

As we celebrate today's news, we must also keep front of mind that there are other Americans that are unjustly being held in places around the world, and we will never stop fighting for their release.

As vice president, it has been my honor to work alongside our president, Joe Biden, to bring home more than 70 Americans in the last three and a half years, and we will never waver in our commitment to bring home every American who has been wrongfully detained or held hostage. That is my solemn commitment to my fellow Americans, which I will always honor.

Thank you all.

REPORTER: Madam Vice President, will you be meeting Evan and Paul when they return?

MATTINGLY: You've been listening to Vice President Kamala Harris, also the presumptive Democratic nominee on the tarmac in Houston. She was in Houston. Give a eulogy in service for Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee who passed away recently. Harris now boarding her plane Air Force Two to head back to Andrews Air Force Base. She's expected to join President Biden this evening to welcome home the Americans release east as part of that hostage deal.

I want go to straight to Arlette Saenz, who is traveling with the vice president in Houston.

Arlette, the vice president heading back to D.C. Now, I was struck by her mention of the private call that she had with Alexei Navalny's wife, Yulia Navalnya, and kind of her role in all this. What was it? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Phil. Vice

President Kamala Harris speaking there for the first time about these -- the release of these Americans, said that she finds comfort in the fact that they are now ending, that horrible ordeal where they had been held in Russia.

Now she's specifically noted in her comments that both she and President Biden engaged in months and years of different diplomatic engagements to really try to push this deal forward. Earlier today, a White House official told us that two key meetings that she had were actually with the German chancellor Olaf Scholz, as well as the Slovenian prime minister, a conversation that she had on the sidelines of the Munich Security Conference back in February talking about the people that they had in their countries that could potentially be part of a prisoner for swap with Russia.

Now, it also comes, as she noted, she spoke earlier today with Yulia Navalnaya, the widow of Alexei Navalny, as someone who is she said that she has spoken with multiple times, that she's trying to show support for Navalny's family, as well as those who had worked with him who had been released as part of this deal.

But a bit later today, the vice president is expected to be on hand at Joint Base Andrews with President Biden as they welcome these Americans back home, they are set to reunite with their families later here today.

MATTINGLY: It will certainly be a powerful moment. Arlette Saenz, we appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Well, up next, we do have more on our breaking news. A massive prisoner swap. What it means for Americans, Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan. Now that they're on their way home, what about the politics behind the deal? We'll explore next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:38:29]

MATTINGLY: In our politics meets world lead, the extraordinary prisoner swap that means Americans wrongfully detained in Russia are now free.

Let's jump in with our panel on what that actually means for the race for the White House.

Nayyera, I think it's striking to me is there has been a view of this administration that the concerns about political backlash to prisoner swap just simply don't carry the day anymore. Do you feel like this will be the case here as well?

NAYYERA HAQ, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF CABINET AFFAIRS, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Well, it's interesting because this is happening in a Biden administration, but Biden's not looking for reelection. And so I wonder how much of that played into the desire to really push for this now and granted, there are other geopolitical forces at play what's interesting is that prisoner swaps have always been a bipartisan focus and something that we've had senior leaders in the past, like Bill Clinton as former president, go to places like North Korea to try to have these negotiations happen.

But what we're seeing now is that concern of using American citizens or American nationals as leverage for some other type of political gain? And if, you know, the idea that getting an American back is actually now incentivizing the bad actors in the world.

MATTINGLY: Which has always been the concern and part of what's going to restricted efforts in the past to actually go this route, what the Biden administration has done.

Jonah, I'm interested. Do you think the Biden -- the vice president here, it's been notable White House officials have been very upfront about her role here, meetings that she may have had, making clear that she was a part of this. Do you think it helps her at all in voters' minds?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think it's going to be a huge win -- it's not a huge, huge win for America. I think it's a real win for Joe Biden. I don't think its something like that. Its going to really propel Kamala Harris one way or the other.

[16:40:04]

But I do think sure, changing nar -- helping the narrative, right? A lot of Americans think country's on the wrong path, wrong track, all that kind of stuff that the Biden White House can't get anything, right? Just that general sense of accomplishment puts a little wind in her sails and it's -- look, it's a better story lines than a lot of others.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, and it also follows the best two-plus weeks that Democrats have had in a very long time and kind of tracks with that, which is also what's fascinating is the former president who said repeatedly, if I get in office, I will get Evan Gershkovich out immediately. I will just happen. It will just happen magically on some level.

It's -- he wrote on Truth Social this afternoon are, quote, negotiators are always an embarrassment to us. Didn't say welcome home, didn't say he was happy to have anybody home, was asking for details of the deal which were literally being laid out by Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser as he posted on Truth Social.

What's his deal right now?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I'm not exactly sure what President Trump's coherent international relations strategy is. He hasn't seemed to be one to really lay out that plan even when he ran for office the first the time around. He's just like America first, we're not going to be and protracted long, expensive conflicts.

It sounds great and I would imagine for most the average voters, they think, okay, my money isn't going to expensive wars and not losing my sons or daughters, that's good enough for me. But I think in terms of individuals like us who work in operating in this space, it is absolutely consequential that we understand and have the proper relationships with allies at enabled us to get those Americans back.

And so I will give President Biden credit and the Biden-Harris administration credit there. My hope is that Republicans will continue those efforts.

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: I think Trump intuits that this is bad for him marginally and he's lashing out. I don't think it's much more complicated than that. It's that and also wanting attention, which he always wants. And this is a moment, this is I suspect a moment where Harris is going to look presidential.

MATTINGLY: Yeah.

PONNURU: You know, this, when she greets these release prisoners, and that is something that adds to the woes that Trump has faced over the last two weeks?

SINGLETON: Yes, certainly I would just say quickly diminishes some of the questions some Republicans have raised about whether or not she's capable of leading the country on the international stage. This is an example that would say that she is.

MATTINGLY: Yeah. And it took the focus off the topic of the last 48 hours, which apparently Trump wanted. I wish I can't really understand, but we're going to dive into that later also, Trump agreed to release 5,000 Taliban prisoners back in Afghanistan when he was president as well.

A lot to work with here.

Everybody, stick around. We got a lot more to get to on all of this. Up next, CNN goes one-on-one with Donald Trump's running mate, Senator J.D. Vance. It's an interview you don't want to miss.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:46:37]

MATTINGLY: We have some breaking news in our 2024 lead. CNN getting new reaction from Republican vice presidential nominee J.D. Vance to comments made yesterday by former President Donald Trump when he attacked Vice President Kamala Harris's racial identity in front of a group of Black journalists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I didn't know she was Black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black and now she wants to be known as Black.

So I don't know. Is she Indian or is she Black?

MODERATOR: She's --

TRUMP: She was Indian all the way and then, all of a sudden, she made a turn and she went -- she became a Black person.

MODERATOR: Just be clear --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: CNN Steve Contorno is live in Tucson, Arizona.

Steve, earlier today, you had an interview with J.D. Vance along the U.S. southern border with Mexico. What did he say?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Phil, I had a chance to talk to Senator Vance about those very remarks that you just played. And I asked him as the father of three biracial children, did those remarks give you pause at all? Not only did he defend them, but he doubled down. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They don't give me pause at all. Look, all he said is that Kamala Harris is a chameleon. She goes to Georgia two days ago. She was raised in Canada as she puts on a fake southern accent. She has everything to everybody and she pretends to be somebody different depending on which audience she's in front of.

I think it's totally reasonable for the president to call that out. And that's all he did. I mean, look, she's running as a tough on crime prosecutor, even though she implemented open border policies. She's saying that she wants to support the police, yet she wanted to defund the police just three years ago.

It's totally reasonable to call out the fact that she pretends to be somebody different depending on the audience she's talking to.

CONTORNO: You used that word "chameleon" yesterday as well. You're someone who was an unabashed critic of the former president previously. Now, you're he's running mate. You are someone who have text message out -- text messages out there that say, I hate the police. Now, yesterday, you said I back the blue.

By your own standard, are you a chameleon?

VANCE: Look, I criticized Donald Trump ten years ago and we've talked about it and I've made a good argument to the American people about why I think he was a great president and why I think he deserves reelection. That's different than going to Georgia two days ago and putting on a fixed other accident when you were raised in Canada?

So I think it's totally reasonable to change your mind. Has Kamala Harris stood for a tough debate with you and explained why she wanted to ban fracking and now she doesn't, or why she wanted to defund the police and now she doesn't? Or why she wanted to open the border, but now she doesn't?

It's reasonable to change your mind. It's not reasonable to run and hide from the media and not answer the American people's questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Now I asked Vance as well about Trump's asserting this week that the vice presidential pick doesn't matter in the race and Vance actually agreed. He said that it will ultimately have no bearing on the outcome.

So I asked him then, well, why are you here? And he said, well, I can still articulate a message on behalf of the former president.

But, Phil, just an example that no matter what comes out of the former president's mouth right now, J.D. Vance is defending it and really that's the spot you are forced to be in when you are Donald Trump's running mate.

MATTINGLY: That's the role, no question about it.

Nice follow up. Steve Contorno, that was a good follow-up question there. Appreciate it, Steve.

Let's bring back in our panel political voices to discuss.

Jonah, what's your reaction to the defense that you just heard from Senator Vance?

GOLDBERG: It's more coherent and logical and defensible than the stuff that Donald Trump was saying. It's also just not particularly responsive to the stuff that Donald Trump was saying. It's totally fair game to go after Kamala Harris for flip-flopping and changing positions. I welcome a lot of her flip-flops. She's moving to the correct positions from the wrong positions.

[16:50:03]

But Donald Trump went out there and said that she's not Black based upon this completely sort of retcon manufactured past when Jim Clyburn said you have to pick a Black woman and Joe Biden said, I'm going to pick a Black woman and then they pick Kamala Harris, no one said, wait a second, she's not Black, she's Indian, right?

I mean, like Donald Trump didn't say that. Nobody said that. What Vance is doing fairly effectively there I think is changing the subject to something that's actually a defensible political argument rather than what Trump actually did.

HAQ: It does, I mean that argument did come at the expense of defending his own families racial identity, and I'm not sure --

GOLDBERG: It wasn't ideal.

HAQ: Right, like I don't know how you talk to your biracial children and tell them that you can't be all things to all people, you get to choose in a setting of Black people that you can connect with that community, using code-switching. Or, you know, you can wear different set of clothes when you're with Indian American families and communities, like that's -- a great way of action being American is being able to express these multiple identities based on where you are.

So even the argument of she tries to be all things to all people again, make it about policy. But the identity piece of it makes her far more relatable. It also helps understand why the Trump administration was adamant about not counting identities and racial demographics within the census, and they were trying to pull that back because what the census shows is that America is a browning, it is a mixed race nation that by 2040, that is going to be the majority of the country and not confronting that is part of Trump's problem.

MATTINGLY: I think what's interesting to both your point, the back half of Senator Vance's argument there, or response there was what every Republican would like to talking about on a regular basis, including, I think the co-campaign managers of former President Trump's operation. And yet, it's not like he's going to walk away from this. In fact, these amplifying false attack on the vice president at a racial identity posting on a social media account.

This is a photo of Harris wearing a sari and a family photo today writing quote, your warmth, friendship, and love of your Indian heritage are very much appreciated.

I mean, J.D. Vance has a photo of himself in traditional Indian where at his wedding, his wife. I don't know -- what are we doing here?

PONNURU: Right. I mean, it's a completely idiotic line of attack, but it also underscores the fact that the Trump campaign, having been given all the time in the world to prepare for the possibility of Harris as the Democratic nominee, apparently hasn't come up with a focus and disciplined line of attack to make against or they cant decide, do they want to go off after her as a flip-flopper? Do they want to go after her as too far-left? Or now, do they want to go after her on I think the least promising possible grounds and the most morally odious -- her way, the way that she lives out a race?

MATTINGLY: I mean, if you watch their ads and if you listen to what Senator Vance said in the back half of that like it feels like they know and they feel like they have a message that they cannot really work of searching for a little bit. And it's not them. It's him.

SINGLETON: Yeah. I mean, look, the ads have focused so far on immigration. I've seen some ads focus on the economy. A month ago, I think even is awesome adds, I think in North or South Carolina targeting younger Black men.

So the campaign from an operational perspective, I would argue, they're doing everything right.

PONNURU: It's got discrete issues.

SINGLETON: It does -- the candidate, the guy at the top. PONNURU: Not just -- it also doesn't have an overall narrative about the other candidate.

SINGLETON: Well, that's right. They're not drawing that contrast for that 4 or 5 percent of people in the middle, some of those moderate- leaning R's, some of those swing voters who may have voted for Republicans in the past, who is sort of on the fence.

The more you racialized this, in my opinion, I think you push those individuals further away. You look at some of the metrics so far. Kamala Harris has slowly improving. It's about, what, 90-plus days to go.

She can continue to steady increase those numbers. And I think if you're not drawing the contrast, you're not talking about the issues of economy, immigration, cost of living, from a Republican perspective, and begun that question about, well, why she flip- flopping all over the place --

MATTINGLY: Yeah.

SINGLETON: -- you are not winning, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Right.

PONNURU: You know, and one thing we've seen, when we see this with Vance, you can go out and say, well, actually Trump meant to say this. We saw all during my --

MATTINGLY: It's like four years of covering Congress.

PONNURU: And it's just going to come back the thing he actually said, again. And you're going to look more foolish for having made this kind of sophistical defense.

Meanwhile, Kamala Harris, I think, loves this story. I don't think that she has any difficultly --

HAQ: I mean, entire answer was, come say it to my face.

PONNURU: Yes.

HAQ: It plays into the whole debate her argument, like that's -- that's -- then say it to her face.

PONNURU: This is a story that Democrats are eager to have stay in the news.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: What are you thinking about Vance right now?

GOLDBERG: I think he is -- I think there's a reason -- all vice presidents have to be loyal to the top of the ticket, considering all the talk about how Trump wants to dump him is really angry. He's really got to be loyal to the ticket in a lot of ways. And I think he's just generally -- he's the first unsuccessful VP

rollout since '72.

MATTINGLY: Yeah. And we'll see -- look, there's a lot of time left, who knows? But he has been defined on some level where it wasn't really expecting.

[16:55:03]

All right, guys. Thank you very much. Really appreciate your time.

A dramatic afternoon in Paris and Simone Biles goes for another gold and another American woman breaks an amazing record. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: In our sports lead, it's an overused term on some level, but this case very, very right. The GOAT is golden once again. This afternoon, Simone Biles clinched gold in the women's gymnastics individual all-around competition at the Paris Olympics, despite making error on the uneven bars. Her teammate, Suni Lee, took bronze.

The U.S. women's team took gold in their team competition earlier this week. They'll compete for more individual medals in the coming days.

And American swimming superstar Katie Ledecky into the history books today as the most decorated female U.S. Olympian of all time after winning silver in the women's four by 200 relay.

Ledecky now has a total of 13 Olympic medals. And so is a chance to add to that number.

Got to love it.

The news continues on CNN.