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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Tomorrow: Trump And Harris Meet For First Time On Debate Stage; Dem & GOP Leaders of Key Committee Spar Over Afghanistan Withdrawal. Harris Heads To Philadelphia After Debate Prep In Pittsburgh; Kentucky Shooting Suspect Evades Capture For Third Day; Suspected Gunman's Mother Received Alarming Message From Son On Morning Of Shooting; Actor James Earl Jones Dies At 93. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired September 09, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: -- said people were met with those half- built tents, those awesome cheese sandwiches and no concert.
[16:00:06]
What did they say? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice --
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Fool me -- you can't fool me the third time is the point. But that cheese sandwich, apparently, that's what you said you make your kids?
KEILAR: Mine looks better than that, but I do have a cheese sandwich lover and I make that every day. And it looks way better than that.
SANCHEZ: Will you make one -- make some for us here at "CNN NEW CENTRAL", so we can try and compare it to the Fyre Festival sandwich?
KEILAR: I will. I'm going to make a dead ringer for that.
SANCHEZ: Look forward to.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: You know who loves cheese sandwiches?
THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.
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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Could tomorrow night's debate prove even more consequential than the last one? Probably not.
THE LEAD starts right now.
Kamala Harris and Donald Trump preparing pairing for tomorrow's high- stakes debate in very different ways. Vice President Harris calling on two people who have debated Trump in the past, while Trump himself is getting ready for a public appearance tonight.
Plus, yet another investigation of the tragic U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. Is it a coincidence that the committee report is coming out right before the debates? Both the top Republican and the top Democrat on the relevant committee will be here with two very different takes.
And alarming new details about the tragic shooting at that Georgia high school. Ahead, the suspected shooter's cryptic text to his mother and her urgent call to the school before the horror unfolded.
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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD.
I'm Jake Tapper, and happy presidential debate eve to those who celebrate. Consider that just 74 days ago, Dana Bash and I hosted that first presidential debate of 2024, that went so horribly wrong for incumbent President Joe Biden, so wrong it caused Democrats to do what is unprecedented in the modern age? They made the call to the proverbial bullpen.
Vice President Kamala Harris emerged as the brand new nominee. Now, tomorrow night, she will be the one taking the stage for the second debate. It will be the first ever face to face meeting between Harris and former President Donald Trump as the CNN poll of polls shows an agonizingly tight race with no who clear leader.
Trump campaign for its part is previewing some lines of attack for the debate today, saying that the vice president, quote, owns everything from this administration, unquote. And moments from now, Harris will leave Pittsburgh where she has been in debate prep mode since Thursday. She is on route to Philadelphia now ahead of the showdown there the National Constitution Center.
Today, two sources tell CNN that the Harris debate team has been preparing Harris for a range of potential insults and name-calling and derogatory comments from Trump. And a radio interview with the vice president released this morning gives some insight into her thinking.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He plays from this really old and tired playbook, right? Where he -- there's no floor for him in terms of how low he will go, and -- and we should be prepared for that, we should be prepared for the fact that he is not burdened by telling the truth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in Philly ahead of tomorrow's debate.
Jeff, we're learning that Vice President Harris's debate prep includes speaking to other people who have faced Donald Trump on the debate stage before.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, as we know, Donald Trump is heading into his seventh debate tomorrow. That's more than any other nominee. Of course, the two candidates he's debated in a general election are
Hillary Clinton back in 2016, and Joe Biden in 2020. And of course, in June, as you said.
And Vice President Harris has spent some time talking with both of those fellow Democrats. I'm told, talking about what it's like to be on stage with Donald Trump.
The reality is, she has never had a face-to-face encounter with him. One of the reasons for that, he did not attend the inauguration back in 2020 when she was being sworn in as vice president.
But I'm told even though she's been speaking with Clinton and Biden, she's approaching this in her own way. This is not a redo of 2016. I'm told that advisers are preparing her in a very different way.
One specific example is not going after Donald Trump specifically on any misogynistic comments or racist comments. We've seen throughout the course of her very brief campaign is that as the presidential nominee that she's been saying that as a tired, old playbook. She wants to move on.
That is part of the effort to be seen as the candidate of change. Of course, that is the central challenge for her because she just a part of this administration, the Biden/Harris administration. So, that I'm told by Trump advisers is a top goal of his to essentially lump her into the challenges of the Biden/Harris administration. We will hear that a lot tomorrow evening I believe, talking about inflation, talking about immigration.
But, Jake, even though this is a global audience, perhaps, one of the most important audiences is right here in Pennsylvania, we spent some time in Bucks County is, you know, just outside Philadelphia, a pivotal swing county talking to voters.
[16:05:04]
Some are inclined to support her if they learn more about her.
So there's definitely an opportunity for her to fill in some of those blanks about her policy. But there is no question she's arriving here in Philadelphia in about an hour or so. She'll be studying and practicing again tonight.
Jake, it's the biggest moment her political life.
TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny in Philly, thanks so much. Let's bring in the panel.
And, Ameshia, let me say it's not overblown to say this is the biggest moment of her political life. It's an incredibly consequential one, and there's still so much that people don't know about her, voters don't know. Twenty-eight percent of likely voters in "The New York Times"/Sienna College poll say they feel like they need to learn more about her that campaign today, said the debates a chance to introduce her to undecided voters. What does she need to do?
AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, it's no doubt that Kamala Harris has a much steeper ceiling to clear than Donald Trump has to, and I think that she has a couple of things. She has to narrate her story. She has to help people to understand who she is outside of the shadow of being a part of the administration. She also has to be that person who is willing to go on record and challenge Donald Trump, where he needs to be challenged.
We know that he has faced some scrutiny around his idea of tariffs. And that somehow being able to bring that the tax funding that America needs to get a lot of things think forward like childcare. We know that that's not going to work. She has to call him out on January 6. He has to be able to prosecute the case, so to speak.
But she also has to narrate herself and I think that and having to do both of those and delineate herself from some of the negative commentary that he's made about her, irrespective to race and gender because he said other things as well. She's in the spotlight. This is her -- this is going to be her night. She has a lot more of a steep hill to climb than Donald Trump does.
TAPPER: And, Marc, the Harris campaign reluctantly agreed to the previously arranged debate rules of the microphones being muted when it's not your turn to speak. A new Trump war room post claims that handlers for Kamala Harris, quote, have been downplaying expectations amid reports she's terrified after her last-minute attempt, a last- minute attempts to change the rules failed.
But it does seem kind of unwise to me. Like, why are they setting expectations for her low, shouldn't they be building her up?
MARC LOTTER, CHIEF COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER, AMERICA FIRST POLICY INSTITUTE: Well, I know she wants that viral moment, that "I am speaking" moment that she had over and over and over again with then Vice President Pence, which she's not going to get. You know, she's a very competent debater and she is --
TAPPER: And there it is.
LOTTER: And she is very -- and she is very, and she is very -- as a prosecutor, obviously, as a member of the Senate, on the committees -- I mean, she gave it to some of the nominees. So you've got to be ready. The problem is she doesn't have the policy chops to, A, defend and pivot away from her record with Joe Biden and explain to people why even though she broke it, she's the one that should fix it.
TAPPER: Okay. So, Alex, the Harris campaign is going to run a new ad only tomorrow, only on Fox. It features clips of former Trump officials, including Vice President Pence, warning of the dangers of a second Trump presidency. A couple of the clips in this ad, by the way, were taken from THE LEAD.
Here's -- here's a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Anyone who puts themselves over the Constitution should never be president of the United States.
It should come as no surprise that I will not be endorsing Donald Trump this year.
AD NARRATOR: His defense secretary --
TAPPER: Do you think Trump can be trusted with the nation's secrets ever again?
MARK ESPER, FORMER TRUMP DESFENSE SECRETARY: No. I mean, it's just irresponsible action that places our service members at risk, places our nation security at risks.
AD NARRATOR: His national security adviser --
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Donald Trump will cause a lot of damage. The only thing he cares about is Donald Trump.
AD NARRATOR: And the nation's highest ranking military officer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't take an oath to a king or queen, or to a tyrant, or a dictator. And we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Do you think Fox viewers will be swayed by that?
ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, the fact is they're only hoping just way one particular Fox viewer by playing it in Mar-a-Lago the day of the debate. This is some debate day -- debate day gamesmanship here by the Harris campaign and because they're not showing this in swing states, at least not right now. It's not meant to persuade voters.
What it's meant to do is try to get into Donald Trump's head because Kamala Harris's campaign, they want the Donald Trump of the 2020 debates, the and especially that first debate where he appeared at times unhinged, angry, a loose cannon. They want to make him dangerous, a risky bet.
And they're seeing a "New York Times" poll showed that some voters really thought that Trump was the riskier choice even though they actually wanted him for any -- for him on the issue of change.
TAPPER: You were talking about how Kamala Harris needs to fill in some of the blanks. She tried to do that last night. Her website put up some policies for the first time. The border immigration section says in part, quote, she knows that our immigration system is broken and needs comprehensive reform that includes strong border security and an earned pathway to citizenship.
Our friend Alex here posted on twitter that this section was vague beyond the bipartisan border bill she's committed to back.
Do you think she needs to offer more and more substance there?
[16:10:01]
CROSS: No, I think that she offered what could be offered at this point. We know that the bipartisan bill ended up dying at the behest of Donald Trump giving a call to members of the House Republican caucus.
But I think that what we've seen from this administration that Kamala Harris still happen to be a part of is one that was willing to work with Republicans to establish not only stronger security restrictions at the border, but also to acknowledge that there has to be humanitarian a humanitarian approach to this, irrespective to what we saw from the governor of Texas and several others.
But with that being said, we recognize that, you know, the poll -- the polling nationally as to what's happening at our southern border, as well as to the cities where many of these individuals were sent to you, we're talking Chicago, New York, so on and so forth? Those individuals were very upset and I think that there is a leaning in from the Democratic Party as well as from Kamala Harris on what can also be done in those cities that have that have experienced housing issues and other issues related to migrants who are not a part of border towns who were sent there.
She's leaning in on that conversation, but she also recognizes that Congress plays a major role here. She tried to work with them. The Biden administration tried to work with them. Republicans need to step up as well.
TAPPER: What advice would you give Donald Trump? Because, you know, it's -- there is a gender dynamic, man, woman, and a man yelling at a woman is different than a man yelling at a man. And the perception of any voters, do you think that he should -- he should dial it down a little or, you know, Katy bar the door, do whatever you want to do?
LOTTER: Well, I think the format also encourages or discourages that kind of -- that kind of intercourse because you're not, you're not going to be -- you're not asking questions to each other. You're not being able to interrupt and break in on each other.
And so I think he just needs to keep reminding people about her policies, including the new policy which I will translate all Project 2025, that was amnesty. So he she just called for amnesty.
TAPPER: The pathway to citizenship.
LOTTER: The pathway to citizenship, there's -- that's amnesty.
CROSS: A pathway to citizenship -- I mean, DACA was technically supposed to help to attribute to that as well. This is not for individuals who are here trying to, you know, make it to the asylum process. LOTTER: But you keep going on the policy, you keep focusing on the results. He has the advantage that people remember things were more affordable. The border was more secure when he was in office.
TAPPER: Everyone, stick around. We got a lot more with this panel coming up, but first, this reminder, tomorrow's debate will be a special event here on CNN, complete with exclusive analysis and it all starts tomorrow with THE LEAD. We're going to be live from Philly and we're going to continue well into the night.
Look for strong exchanges in the debate on foreign policy, specifically on the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. A new report is just out competing narratives being made from House Democrats and House Republicans.
Coming up next, I'm going to talk to the chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee behind the investigation and then the top Democrat on the committee will be here to respond. Two interviews you're only see on THE LEAD.
Plus, another big interview tomorrow. House Speaker Mike Johnson, that's tomorrow here on THE LEAD, live from Philly.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:16:43]
TAPPER: In our world lead -- three years ago, 13 U.S. service members and approximately 170 Afghans were killed in a suicide bombing and its aftermath outside Kabul's airport, right near the Abbey Gate. Tens of thousands of Afghans who had helped the U.S. military were left behind in this exodus.
And today, Republicans and Democrats are still fighting over what went so horribly wrong and who is to blame.
On Sunday, House Foreign Affairs Committee chaired by Texas Republican Mike McCaul issued a scathing new report. And this time it has Vice President Harris's name all over it, a notable addition to this years- long effort by the committee that had focused previously more on President Biden and other top White House State Department officials.
The 353-page report titled willful blindness as, quote, the Biden- Harris administration prioritized the optics of the withdrawal over the security of U.S. personnel on the ground, unquote.
In response, the ranking Democrat on the committee, Congressman Gregory Meeks, who we're going to talk to an a second, he published a memorandum saying that the attempts to pin blame solely on the Biden- Harris administration, quote, lack intellectually -- intellectual rigor and do not comport with the facts glean from witness testimony, unquote.
TAPPER: Remember, this report comes a year after the U.S. State Department official after action review, which found both the Trump and Biden administration's decisions to pull all U.S. troops from Afghanistan had detrimental consequences.
The chairman of the committee, Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas, joins us now.
Thanks so much for being here.
REP. MIKE MCCAUL (R-TX): Yeah, thanks for having me, Jake.
TAPPER: For our viewers, you have -- you have -- getting over a little cold in your throat there.
MCCAUL: Right, right.
TAPPER: In your 2022, 115-page interim report, the one before you only mentioned Kamala Harris twice. This latest report mentions her 280 times. Critics are saying this is an example of you trying to politicize the exodus and what went wrong because she's now the Democratic nominee.
MCCAUL: Well, we have more evidence, facts and evidence. You know, the fact is -- you know, for two years, the first year, the Democrats did nothing on this investigation. For two years, my goal as a former federal prosecutor was to have integrity in the process and not jump to conclusions at all and C-word took us, right?
So we had interview after interview, but we had to have subpoenas, motions of contempt to get the sitting cable channel from the embassy, all the facts coming in.
If you read the report, Jake, it's very professional. This is not a political hatchet job. We want to get to the truth because number one, we want to make sure this never happens again.
TAPPER: Let me just ask you a question, do you think -- I want to just like take out -- this is something that I'm curious about. Taking out the Trump and Biden decisions and how it went down, do you think that the U.S. -- it would be better if we still had troops in Afghanistan?
MCCAUL: I did.
TAPPER: You do?
MCCAUL: I think that was the advice in our report of Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, Milley, General McKenzie, CentCom commander, nor I.C., myself, but 2,500 is a light footprint to stabilize Afghanistan, 6,500 NATO air cover. Very important, contractors, it all stabilized Afghanistan.
When President Biden came in office, it was a go to zero approach.
[16:20:03]
In other words, we're going to withdraw the military, the contractors, and most importantly, the air support. The Afghan military didn't have a chance after that. And the problem I saw competing between State and the White House and the DOD was that the DOD had a grim assessment and I saw at the time. State and the White House that a rosy that everything's going fine. But it wasn't.
TAPPER: Right.
MCCAUL: The State Department by federal law, is required to come up with an evacuation plan. They failed to do so. And that's why we failed that day. In fact, the plan was not even initiated until the Taliban overran Kabul.
TAPPER: So your new report claims that a, quote, vast amount of information that could have provided answers regarding the Abbey Gate attack was deleted or destroyed in the wake of the bombing, including the destruction or deletion of photos, videos, and more.
Pentagon spokesman, Major General Pat Ryder, was asked about this today and he said he wasn't aware of, quote, any intentional destruction. But do you think it was intentional and how --
MCCAUL: I don't -- you know, CentCom, because of my investigation -- CentCom reopened a review after Tyler Vargas Andrews, a sniper, said I had the suicide bomber and my sights and he was not given permission to engage.
TAPPER: Right.
MCCAUL: All we wanted were -- give us the videos, give us the photos. The problem is that they destroyed almost all videos and the documents. I don't know. I'm not going to say it was intentional. The fact is we just don't have the evidence.
The best evidence we have were the marines on the ground who have testified that they saw the Taliban shooting Americans. One of the soldiers said I was shot by a gunshot by the Taliban.
Why is that important? Because that would implicate the Taliban is working in concert with ISIS-K. Now remember --
TAPPER: ISIS-K, just for people who don't remember, ISIS-K is the group that carried out the suicide bomber.
MCCAUL: That's right. The narrative is always that they fight each other. But with the Americans, they -- you know, they and, the bomber came out of Bagram.
By the way, Jake, thousands of ISIS prisoners escaped out of Bagram that are threat to the United States today.
TAPPER: So the National Security Council spokesman John Kirby, was asked about the report. He said it didn't contain anything new, and he added this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: The Trump administration cut a deal called the Doha agreement that mandated a complete U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. And yes, that included Bagram Air Base.
President Biden for his part face a stark choice when he came to office, abide by the flawed agreement and end America's longest war or blow up the deal, extend the war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: If that is true, why not fault Trump along with Biden?
MCCAUL: So the Doha agreement was interesting. Musab Zarqawi is the architect. He does not bring the Afghan government into this, that was a mistake in my judgment. The Doha agreement had conditions, one, Taliban -- if Taliban hitting U.S. forces or harboring al-Qaeda like they did Zawahiri, the number two, to Bin Laden, that would be in violation of Doha.
What happened? Secretary Mike Pompeo went to President Trump and said, look, they're still in violation. We have to keep the 2,500.
President Trump made the decision to keep 2,500 troops and 6,500 NATO and air cover.
On day one, President Biden came into office. And I think made the political decision that he was going to go to zero.
Don't take my word for it, his spokesperson said the Doha agreement is immaterial to this evacuation.
TAPPER: All right. Chairman Mike McCaul, it's good to see you, sir. Thanks so much.
MCCAUL: Always. Thank you.
TAPPER: And the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee is also here. We're going to talk to him and get his reaction right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:28:38]
TAPPER: And we're back and sticking with our world lead just one day before the very consequential first Trump-Harris debate. The former president is trying to make the chaotic Afghanistan withdrawal, a key campaign issue.
Joining us now to respond to the report published by Republicans on the House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Mike McCaul we just had, New York Democrat and the ranking mean Democrat on the Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Gregory Meeks.
Mr. Meeks, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. So you just heard Chairman McCaul say this is not a political Hatchet
job. He did a thorough investigation. Democrats did nothing for the first year of the investigation. And this is a fair report.
What's your response?
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): It's almost laughable. Do you think it's a coincidence the day before the debate, you know, that this announcement came out -- just all of a sudden, it's concluded? Do you think it's not political when previously, almost 3,000 pages of testimony, and Kamala Harris was mentioned three times and now, all of a sudden, he's trying to include her in?
Do you think that it's just a coincidence that he is just now saying that all of the items of which they put together when in fact, when you listen to the testimony of which they had, I have to demand for it to be released?
This has been basically nothing but trying to pick and choose what you'd report as oppose to the facts themselves.
TAPPER: So, Chairman McCaul also said, I asked him, you know, forget the manner of the withdrawal, do you just disagree with the withdrawal in general? Do you think -- that both Trump and Biden wanted, do you think troop should still be in Afghanistan? He said yes.
MEEKS: Yeah, and I disagree with that. And I think Joe Biden was clear when he ran for president, that he thought that 20 years was far too long.
You know, when I was the chairman of the committee, what I wanted to do and I thought was the appropriate thing to do if you were playing politics with this game, is to do a 20-year from George W. Bush to Barack Obama to Donald Trump to Joe Biden.
TAPPER: Look at the whole thing.
MEEKS: Look at the whole thing because it's all interconnected.
TAPPER: Right.
MEEKS: If this is not a political game, that's what you would do. If it's a political game, you would not parade the Gold Star families whose hearts are lost --
TAPPER: Yeah.
MEEKS: -- before every hearing and to try to make it a political game.
TAPPER: But they want to talk about it, though. The Gold Star families feel ignored by the Biden administration.
MEEKS: And I understand that, but I'm saying at the hearings and if you listen to the question that they were pointed out I heard that, you know, that it were said and said many times over to them that the sniper had the bomber in his sights. That has been completely debunked. The fact that the matter is even Mr. McCaul had the say that that was debunked. It's just not true.
So if you look at their report, even its entirety, not the snippets that will pull it out. Look at it, you will see that it is not what he said. There's nothing new here. We spent another year or so to work it out. So it was timing for the elections and has there been anything new that we don't know already? Well, let me everything has been said.
TAPPER: Let me ask you a question about the Gold Star families who lost -- 13 of them lost their loved ones. Many of them spoke and were at the Republican National Committee in July in Milwaukee. Here's a little clip of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTY SHAMBLIJN, MARINE CORPS SGT. NICOLE GAE'S MOTHER-IN-LAW: While Joe Biden has refused to recognize their sacrifice, Donald Trump spent six hours in Bedminster with us.
CHERYL JUELS, MARINE CORPS SGT. NICOLE GAE'S AUNT: Joe Biden owes the men and women, that certain Afghanistan a debt of gratitude and an apology.
HERMAN LOPEZ, MARINE CORPS CPL. HUNTER LOPEZ'S FATHER: All on this stage recognized the efforts of Mr. Trump. We know this firsthand. We've experienced it. Whenever we've met with him, he has demonstrated compassion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: There is a congressional gold medal ceremony for these Gold Star families tomorrow. Biden is back in D.C.
I don't -- I confess. I never really understand why a president or a secretary of state or defense secretary wouldn't meet with Gold Star families. It does seem like that is the very least somebody can do. They had that one meeting and it didn't go very well.
Do you think President Biden should go to the ceremony tomorrow?
MEEKS: Look, I leave that up to the president, but in my heart and soul goes out to those Gold Star families. As it goes out to the over 2,400 soldiers that lost their life in Afghanistan.
TAPPER: Yeah.
MEEKS: Anytime you look at war, we're coming on the anniversary of 9/11 and I look at the heroes that Fire Department that went into those buildings knowing they were going to come out. Those individuals are all heroes and their families will suffer for the rest of their lives, all 2,400 plus. And so, I intend on being there and that regards.
I think that President Biden, you know, unlike Donald Trump who has ridiculed people in the military, weighing the medals, who -- one was civilian medal higher than that a medal --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Yeah, he said the medal -- he said congressional gold medals better than the medal of honor.
MEEKS: He said terrible things about John McCain and other soldiers is better to be alive and to be dead. So to say to me, now that the one who we know has had the sympathies, who understands because of his own son and family members who have been in the military have served, not got up like Donald Trump did, to talk -- to say then that Donald Trump understands and cares more about military families from what he said as opposed to Joe Biden that's just laughable on the face of it.
TAPPER: Well, to the Gold Star families, these 13 think that its not laughable, but I understand what you're saying.
Ranking Democrat Meeks, thanks so much for being here. Appreciate it. And I'm sure the families will appreciate your being at the event --
MEEKS: Absolutely.
TAPPER: -- tomorrow.
Some new video coming in just now, that's Vice President Kamala Harris boarding a plane in Pittsburgh. She's now headed to defend Philly for tomorrow's debate. It's about a 45-minute flight.
[16:35:00]
CNN also will be there in Philly.
But, first, an urgent manhunt in Kentucky for the man police say shot five people. The suspected gunman was a military combat engineer. Should authorities be so sure that they'll track him down? What law enforcement sources are telling CNN about the search. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our national lead, right now, a fugitive is on the run for a third day after allegedly shooting into cars on a highway and injuring five people near London, Kentucky. Schools across a swath of central Kentucky canceled classes today. Residents are urged to remain on high alert.
Authorities say the suspect Joseph Couch is considered armed and dangerous.
[16:40:02]
What we know about him is he's 32. He served roughly six years in the U.S. Army Reserve as a combat engineer and official tells "The Associated Press" at Saturday's attack appears to be a random act of violence.
I want to bring in CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.
And, John, it's been days now theoretically I guess this guy could be anywhere.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, he could be.
Now, law enforcement authorities down there in Kentucky say that they have good reason to believe that he is contained within their perimeter in that wooded area. The challenge there, of course, as you'll remember, this, we saw this when the escapee from the jail in Pennsylvania went into the woods and slip their perimeter a couple of times.
It is hard to maintain a perimeter over terrain like this, where you can't see into far and even from above with a helicopter, even with sensors, that canopy of trees makes it really difficult to be able to tell what's moving around in there, even with thermal imaging, sometimes you see something that might be your suspect and you find out its a deer and its hard to cover ground in there because you're doing it mostly on foot given the terrain.
TAPPER: How unusual is this kind of crime?
MILLER: So it should be unusual, but it's not really. I mean, last week, we had the 710 freeway shooter in California. Before that, we had the Seattle freeway shooter outside Seattle on the highway there in Washington state.
We all remember the D.C. sniper, but then we had the Ohio freeway -- freeways neighbors. And you know, when you talk to the FBI behavioral analysis people and you say, well, who or what is the sniper? They say, this is different from the person who will walk in and shoot all of their colleagues and an office or the serial killer who will approach people and shoot them up close on a dark street at night.
This is someone who likes to operate from a long distance. It's a very impersonal way to kill other people, but it gives the sniper a godlike feeling of saying, I'm in control. These people have no idea what happens and I get to pick who lives and who dies and make that decision right now.
What we don't know is what the stressor was that broke him. What's going on in his life that could have contributed to this or what his end game is, whether he got away from those woods or he's waiting inside to be confronted by law enforcement.
TAPPER: Let's hope this end game is soon. John Miller, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Also in our national lead, the latest developments in that Georgia high school shooting that took the lives of two students and two teachers last week.
CNN's Isabel Rosales has led on this coverage for days and now has new reporting on the disturbing details of everyone says who they trying to prevent this tragedy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New disturbing details are emerging about the shooting at Apalachee High School last week. For the first time, we're seeing the text messages, Colt Gray's mother, Marcee Gray, wrote to family members after the shooting.
I was the one who notified the school counselor, she wrote. I told them it was an extreme emergency and for them to go and immediately find Colt to check on him.
According to a phone log also obtained by CNN, Marcee Gray urgently reached out to Apalachee high multiple times the morning of the shooting. One call lasted ten minutes and came in a full half-hour before the shooting. I don't understand what took them so long because the first shots were fired until 10:30, Marcee Gray texted.
Gray told "The Washington Post" and a family member confirmed to CNN that her son center and alarming tax the morning of the shooting and read only: I'm sorry, mom.
Students inside the alleged shooters classroom confirm to CNN that an administrator came looking for the 14-year-old but mistook him for another student with a similar name.
LYELA SAYARATH, CLASSMATE OF ALLEGED GUNMAN: But my friend, he was in the bathroom as well and eventually they realized they take my friends bag and soon he comes back in with his bag and he was like, I don't know why they had me like, I know what's happening.
ROSALES: Thirty minutes later, at 10:20 a.m., law enforcement received reports of shots fired.
In a panic, Rebecca Sayarath raced to the school after her daughter Lyela called.
REBECCA SAYARATH, MOTHER OF STUDENT WHO WAS IN SHOOTER'S CLASS: I'm furious. I believe it all could have been prevented.
ROSALES: Now, knowing that the suspect's mother had called the school that morning, Sayarath is even more angry.
SAYARATH: Knowing now that it was her that had called and the fact that they had been telling the school for an entire week at least beforehand that he was homicidal and suicidal and had access to guns just -- should have been in police's hand from the moment they got that call that morning.
ROSALES: The older sister of Christian Angulo, one of the four victims, tells CNN their family believes this was 100 percent preventable, saying in part: They knew of the situation beforehand and didn't take the proper action to prevent this tragedy from happening.
But Barrow County Schools superintendent, Dr. Dallas LeDuff, praise the district for their actions, in a video statement released Sunday night, saying:
DR. DALLAS LEDUFF, SUPERINTENDENT, BARROW COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEM: Our teachers and administrative staff did not flinch, did not pause and sprung into action to protect our children and each other.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[16:45:11]
ROSALES: Jake, these emerging details are raising very real questions about the efforts of law enforcement and the school to prevent this attack.
We have reached out to the school district with plenty of questions, including the nature of that call from Marcee Gray, that ten minute conversation that she had with the school. What did she tell them exactly? And also a question that parents had here. Why was it apparently school administrators looking for Colt Gray instead of school resource officers? Again, we're asking those questions. We'll get those answers.
TAPPER: All right. Isabel Rosales. Thank you so much.
Donald Trump once said that he has the absolute right to pardon himself, but can he do that? An expert on this process joins me next.
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[16:50:15]
TAPPER: In our law and justice lead a notable throwback, June 4, 2018, Donald Trump wrote on what was then called Twitter, quote, I have the absolute right to pardon myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong.
Fast forward to now, Trump is a convicted felon in New York and faces several federal charges.
If Trump wins in November, not only could he pardon himself, he could also undo the sentences of January 6th defendants as he has promised.
A book called "Pardon Power" is the focus and title by constitutional law scholar Kim Wehle. She's also a former assistant U.S. attorney.
Thank you so much for being here. It's great to see you again. Congratulations on the fifth book, fourth book?
KIM WEHLE, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW SCHOLAR: Fourth book, yeah.
TAPPER: Fourth.
WEHLE: Yeah, thank you.
TAPPER: Very exciting.
WEHLE: Yeah. TAPPER: So let me ask you, Trump has not been convicted on the federal charges. He has been on the New York charges but the election subversion case is at least moving forward. We should see some evidence at the very least before the election.
Can he still pardon himself for that?
WEHLE: Well, it's always a question if he pardons himself or had pardoned himself, what's the consequence? And I think in this moment there really isn't any accountability for pardon so in theory, he could still have something in his top drawer at Mar-a-Lago.
TAPPER: Oh, he might have already written it.
WEHLE: That's conceivable. I mean, he dangled it when he was president or if he takes office, he could pardon himself, but, you know, with this Supreme Court, very pro-Trump, and the immunity decision allowing presidents to commit crimes using official power, he might not even need a power, pardon. It's sort of a green light for criminal conspiracy in the oval office.
TAPPER: President Biden's son, Hunter Biden, he just pleaded guilty in that federal tax evasion case. Back in June, he was found guilty in that federal guns case President Biden before he said he wasn't going to run for reelection, said he would not pardon his son and the White House has said that he also would not commute his sons sentencing.
I personally find it impossible to believe that that's that he'd that he won't do that for his son. What do you think?
WEHLE: Yeah. Pardons recently, its all in the last flurry that the final days of office, Donald Trump, it was 60 percent of his pardon at the very end and you know, those are those cases our if you'd care, apply the DOJ guidelines. I mean, his -- his drug addiction is brother's death. The fact that he paid back all the taxes that he was owed arguably, these are not charges that would have been brought but for him being the presidents son, he can make a case maybe for a pardon that would be different than say, when Bill Clinton pardoned his --
TAPPER: His brother.
WEHLE: His step brother, or when Donald Trump pardon Jared Kushner's dad, yeah.
TAPPER: Right. Let me talk about Trump pardoning the January 6 defendants because Mr. Trump has certainly talked about it. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL SCOTT, ABC CORRESPONDENT: My question is on both rioters who assaulted officers. Would you pardon those people?
(CROSSTALK) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Excuse me, you have to ask, what's going to happen -- oh, absolutely. I would.
SCOTT: You would pardon those --
TRUM: If they're innocent -- if they're innocent, I would pardon them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I don't even know what that means if they're innocent. These are people who have been adjudicated and are in prison.
What do you make of the fact that he keeps talking about this?
WEHLE: Well, I think it's -- there's a survey that was done this summer on the pardon. And a majority of Americans, including Republicans, didn't want to see pardons for the January 6 insurrectionists because it's an invitation for political violence.
We will, you know, this president anyway will reward political violence. Some people think it would create a private militia, just people that will ride or die with their guns for Donald Trump.
That's not the idea, Jake, behind the pardon power, which goes back thousands of years.
TAPPER: What is the idea behind the pardon power?
WEHLE: It's that the criminal justice system is flawed, some people get really harsh sentences and there needs to be some mercy, an act of mercy. And if you pardon a lot of people at the idea is its a widespread act of mercy like George Washington -- very first part in four people are participated in the Whiskey Rebellion or Jimmy Carter for draft dodgers and, you know, others.
And that the idea is, as a stop gap against unfairness. Not a mechanism for corruption and silencing witnesses and paying donors and the kinds of things that we see routinely and just shrug off it.
TAPPER: And there is a lot of injustice in the justice system. So that theoretically would be valuable. You posed the question in the book, what are the checks on the president's power to pardon? Are there any?
WEHLE: Well, I think there's a mythology that there are not. There actually are Supreme Court cases that limit the pardon power. So that's possible, but it takes a case to get to this Supreme Court. It takes an appetite for it.
I don't think Congress could limit it specifically, but it could ban lobbying for pardons. It could require transparency in pardons. It could maybe have a pardon commission that was not just DOJ lawyers. So there's things that can be done if people cared and learn about it.
TAPPER: All right. The new book, 'Pardon Power", the author Kim Wehle.
[16:55:01]
It's so good to have you back. Thank you so much.
WEHLE: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: And we have some major breaking news.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
TAPPER: Some major breaking news just coming in. We are hearing that legendary actor, James Earl Jones, has died at the age of 93. You hear his iconic voice often right here on CNN. Again, this news is just coming in and we're going to come back with more on this sad breaking news right after this break.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
We're following so many stories this hour, but we're going to start with breaking news in our pop culture lead. Breaking news, it hits rather close to home here at CNN.
James Earl Jones, the legendary actor of the stage --
