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The Lead with Jake Tapper
12 Days To Go: Harris & Trump Targeting Key Swing States; Soon: Announcement In Menendez Brothers Case; In Deposition, Michael Flynn Offers No Evidence To Support 2020 Election Conspiracies He Pushed In Public. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 24, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:05]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Look, good balance is good, good for health. That's true.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KEILAR: I think we can say that much, but I'm just saying don't feel bad about yourself.
That's not were trying to do here at all. But maybe give it a shot. Maybe work on that balance.
SANCHEZ: Do you think Jake will start to show like this, Jake Tapper?
KEILAR: Definitely not.
SANCHEZ: Find out on THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER right now.
Real fears about violence in response to this election, THE LEAD starts right now.
Under the backdrop of many, many threats, election workers are getting ready, preparing to count votes as election lies pushed in public by people like Michael Flynn, Trump's former for national security adviser take hold. But that's not Flynn was saying behind closed doors under oath. We'll bring to you what he actually said.
And breaking news, we will find out this hour if the Menendez brothers get a chance to have their life sentences reconsidered after they murdered their parents in 1989.
But, first, only 12 days until Election Day and this race is getting even more heated.
(MUSIC)
TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Only 12 days away from Election Day.
So let's cue that election bop if we can, sir.
(MUSIC) TAPPER: Gracias.
Both Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump are campaigning in battleground states today and they are battling it out. Trump holding events in Arizona and Nevada. Harris joining former President Barack Obama for a rally in Atlanta as more than 29 million Americans have already cast their ballots in this race.
And the last night's CNN's town hall in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, Harris tried to reach out to voters who have not yet made up their minds about whom they're going to vote for. A recurring theme in her message last night, warning about how she believes Trump will run the country in a second term should he win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN MODERATOR: Do you think Donald Trump is a fascist?
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I do. Yes I do.
He's going to sit there unstable, unhinged, plotting his revenge, plotting his retribution, creating an enemies list.
I'm going to tell you, my list will be a list of how I address and continue to address the issues that you all are raising this afternoon and evening. It will be a to-do list.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Apparently the target of her attacks was watching this morning on "The Hugh Hewitt Show", Trump called this her worst performance.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I watched her charade last night on CNN. It was an embarrassment that she is running for president representing a major party. She's got no intelligence. She's got nothing. She's got nothing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: A few hours later, Harris struck back with the fact that Trump has always -- had -- had also been invited for a CNN town hall. He had also been indicted for another CNN debate, but he declined both offers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: As for last night yet again, Trump not showing up, refused to be a part of a CNN debate. And clearly his staff has been saying he's exhausted and the sad part about that as he's trying to be president of the United States, probably the toughest job in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Trump today on that same radio show, also went on to make a new campaign promise of sorts.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HOST: You're either going to have to pardon yourself, or you're going to have to fire Jack Smith. Which one will you do?
TRUMP: It's so easy. I would fire him within two seconds.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: That, of course, is Trump vowing to fire special counsel Jack Smith, who brought charges against him in the January 6 election subversion case, and also the classified documents case, which has been dismissed. The Justice Department is appealing to get the classified documents case reinstated. The Harris campaign responding to that by saying that this is proof that Trump wants to be, quote, a dictator with unchecked power, unquote.
Now, in the final days of this campaign, Harris is relying on a debt textbook, Democratic Party move bringing out the celebrities.
So just as we saw, Eminem rallying in Detroit two days ago alongside President Obama, tomorrow. It's Beyonce. The superstar will appear alongside Vice President Harris for the very first time army camp trail tomorrow in Houston, Texas. Harris, of course, uses Beyonce's "Freedom" as the campaign's official song. And this appearance is a long time in the making. CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is with the Harris campaign in Georgia.
But let's start with Steve Contorno, who is with the Trump campaign in Arizona.
Steve, what more are we hearing today from Mr. Trump as he plans to travel between Arizona and Nevada.
STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, we are just getting word of what Trump will say when he takes the stage in just a few moments here in Tempe, Arizona. This is a border state and he intends to deliver a speech that is heavily focused on criticizing the Biden-Harris administration's approach to immigration and back here, he intends to say it has been an egregious betrayal of Americans.
[16:05:01]
And he will, quote, say, my message today is simple, Kamala's migrant invasion disqualifies her from the presidency. No person who is responsible for so much bloodshed on our own soil get ever be allowed to be president of United States, not Donald Trump has made immigration a focal point of his campaign throughout this entire election. Even as his old campaign has been trying to push for more back of economics message at his rallies, urging him to focus on crime his campaign. His campaign and its allies are also airing millions and millions of dollars to advertisement focused on transgender health care, but Trump remains adamant that immigration and the U.S. southern border are the number one priorities in this country and he hopes to galvanize voters around that issue, starting today in Tempe, Arizona.
TAPPER: And, Priscilla, you're in battleground Georgia ahead of the Harris rally there with former President Obama. What are we expecting in Georgia? What are you learning about the early voting numbers in that state?
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the vice president along with former President Barack Obama, are trying to energize voters and capitalize on early voting here in DeKalb County, one-third of active voters first have already cast their ballots.
So this is going to be a rally intended to build more momentum on that, especially in a state as crucial as Georgia. Now, of course, Bruce Springsteen is also going to headline. He has been a frequent presence in the waning days of a presidential election for Democratic candidates, so he will be here tonight performing, but we are also going to get a glimpse into the vice president's closing argument. That according to a senior campaign official, I spoke to who was said to anticipate to hear more about the former President Donald Trump's enemies list versus the vice presidents to do lists. That is going to be a recurring theme over the next several days as well as reproductive freedom.
Tomorrow, the vice president, as you mentioned, adding to Houston, Texas, where she'll be joined with Beyonce to elevate and amplify that issue, an issue that Democrats Democratic officials and campaign official view as a galvanizing one for voters and one that they're going to lean in on over the next several days.
But look, events like this one here in Georgia, they are about mobilization according to officials but I've spoken with and they really want to capitalize on that early voting scene. That is an advantage going into Election Day. So, more to come on, all of this -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Priscilla Alvarez and Steve Contorno, thanks so much.
Let's bring in Democratic Maryland Governor Wes Moore, who's in Milwaukee, Wisconsin campaigning with the second gentleman, Doug Emhoff.
Governor, good to see you.
At the CNN town hall last night, Vice President Harris leaned into the attacks on Trump. She said he was a fascist. He said he was unfit.
I want to get your reaction to an undecided voter in our focus groups Pam Thistle, who was there in the audience last night and asked Vice President Harris a question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM THISTLE, PENNSYLVANI VOTER: Stop trashing each other. We don't care stop trashing Trump. Trump, stop trashing the vice president. We don't care. The voters don't care. We don't even know the people they're talking about that this person said this and that how does that impact the voters? That's who you're talking to, that's who you're serving.
This feels like high school gossip. We don't want to hear it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, Pam Thistle said she left the town hall with, quote, a feeling of adoration for Vice President Harris. But as a widow, raising children, paying her bills is your top concern. And I wonder if you worry at all about but the balance between Vice President Harris explaining her positive image, a positive vision for the country, and what she wants to do for voters versus reminding people about the threat she perceives Donald Trump poses.
MOORE: Well, I think the president is spending her time actually talking about the future and talking about what she will bring and what her presidency would actually bring to working Americans in the average American and I think so a lot of frustration that we've heard from Ms. Pam that night, I think is a frustration that a lot of Americans feel because all we have heard now, literally for over a year, whether the target was President Biden or were now whether the target is Vice President Kamala Harris has been negative attacks, has been noise, and frankly has been a lot of lies coming from the former president.
And so, I think one thing that people are seeing, and I'm here in Wisconsin and I know the energy is real because people do understand that what we are seeing now from Donald Trump, we can't do that for another four years.
We can deal with the past couple of weeks and what were going to deal with for the next for the next 11 days in a wakeup, have that now being our leadership focus for the next four years. We've got to focus on the future and not -- not a leader who's literally telling us that the dream America is an America of the past.
And I think the future vision for this country is what the vice president's providing.
[16:10:04]
And I think that's why people are rallying to her side.
TAPPER: So I hear from Democratic friends who are frankly terrified that Vice President Harris is not closing the deal. I'm sure you have even more a Democratic friends and I do. What do you tell them if they reach out to you and say that they're worried about this election?
MOORE: I would tell people important that we get to work. The days of the hand-wringing are gone and one thing we've seen is that as the vice president continues to make her -- make her point and deliver her message. She is converting people.
I mean, think about it. I think the other thing is we need to tell people you cannot sit on the sidelines on this one, we have here in Wisconsin, the longest serving Republican state senator in Wisconsin history, just endorsed Kamala Harris. We've now had over 20 members of Donald Trump's administration who have come out and said, not only will they not support Donald Trump, but they are going to support Kamala Harris. You cannot be either or on this situation and you can not sit on the sidelines.
So, people, especially people, and I will say this, both Democrats and Republicans for people who are saying that I don't like Donald Trump and I think he is a danger to society. But you do not have the political courage to endorse the only other person that can be the president United States, that actually says more about you than it does about the campaign that we're running.
TAPPER: This campaign event you're at today with Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff also includes the current head coach and the former head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks, certainly local celebrities. And on Friday, Beyonce is going to join Vice President Harris in Houston.
Democratic presidential candidates have deployed celebrities in the past with mixed results. What impact do you think it has for Harris?
MOORE: I think it's important that everybody get out. It's -- you know, it's not lost that just last week, I was on a bus tour with nine other governors in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, basically saying that even though I happen to be the governor of the state of Maryland, it was important from me that everybody around the country understand the importance of having Kamala Harris as our next president, that you can have people who are everyday working Americans. You can have people who are athletes. You can have people who are, who entertainers.
Everybody needs to make sure that they're using whatever vehicle they have and whatever resource they have to ensure that we can actually protect our democracy and ensure that we have a brighter future for everybody. So I applaud the fact that the campaign is saying that we are going to make sure that everybody understands their role. Everybody understands their power, and everybody understands their voice because that is actually how you win elections.
TAPPER: Let me ask you about the Senate race going on in your home state of Maryland. The Republican former Governor Larry Hogan, who's notably anti-Trump. He's in a tight Senate race with Democrat Angela Alsobrooks. Check out his new ad that was released just today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REBECCA, ROCKVILLE, MD: As a Democrat for president, I know who I'm voting for. That's easy, but Senate, Alsobrooks or Hogan -- look, they're both pro-choice, but Hogan cut taxes tolls, and fees in Maryland. I like Hogan, he works with both parties. He finds common sense solutions. This isn't complicated. I'm splitting my ticket.
Harris and Hogan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Do you worry about this split ticket factor in your state?
MOORE: I don't because I think the old governor is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You can't be, quote/unquote, anti-Trump but you won't even vote against him inside of the election. You cannot have it both ways.
And I endorsed Angela Alsobrooks over a year ago. Ive been proudly campaigning for a crowded primary and I've been proudly campaigning for her ever since. She will be Maryland's next senator. I think she's going to win handily and not only she a great candidate, I think that were seeing the fact that Larry Hogan's back-and-forth on whether or not he is going to be pro choice that he just became pro-choice the past couple of months ago does not rub Marylanders well.
The fact that we watched homicide rates and non-fatal shooting rates skyrocket while he was the governor does not rub Marylanders as well. And I think is were now seeing new allegations about how he enriched himself and others in his circle while he was governor does not rub Marylanders well.
So I think Angela Alsobrooks is a fantastic candidate. She will be Maryland's next senator. And I think this has been a very challenging race for the old governor.
TAPPER: All right. Maryland Governor Wes Moore, thanks so much. Good to see you, sir.
Two of my next guests have both worked on winning presidential campaigns. I'm going to get their take on the state of the race. 12 days out from Election Day.
Plus, the pending decision expected this hour for the Menendez brothers, Lyle and Erik. Could they be one step closer to getting out of prison 35 years after they killed their parents?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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TAPPER: Sticking with our 2024 lead, there are now only 12 days until Election Day. We have four new CNN poll of polls from four key battlegrounds.
First up, the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Harris and Trump only separated by one percentage point, 48-47, Harris. North Carolina, also razor thin, 49-48 Trump. In Georgia, the former president holds a slight advantage, 50-48, Trump. And finally in Arizona, also close 50- 47 Trump.
Former President Trump is on the campaign trail in the Sun Belt where just moments from now, he's going to hold a rally in Tempe, Arizona, before heading to Vegas in Nevada. Let's bring in the panel.
So I -- at this point, honestly, I don't even know how much I should even show polls because look, we know this. There are, what, seven battlegrounds and maybe eight if you include North Carolina and it's tight. It's super tight. And like, I don't know who's going to win and Harry Enten has said, it could be an electoral landslide one way or the other if somebody, win seven of them, one way or the other.
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, I mean, there are certain things we know. The electorate continues to evolve, wrote this week about the latest data from the census, eligible voters, non- college whites who are the core Trump constituency are down about two points since 2020, which continues to long-term trend. They've been down about two to three points every election going back to the '70s and the difference is made up by voters of color and college educated whites, both pressing by a point.
Interestingly, the decline in the share of the eligible voting electorate of among non-college whites was greater than the national average in Michigan and Wisconsin replaced almost entirely by college whites, and less than the national average in Pennsylvania.
[16:20:07]
I think to me, I feel like this year is anywhere it began. Harris is going to be a lot more competitive than Biden in the Sun Belt swing states, but it's still going to be hard to tip any one of them actually over the line, which means that to win, she has to win the three, in all likelihood.
TAPPER: Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.
BROWNSTEIN: Three states that fell out of the blue wall in 2016 and the Trump put back in and in those states, the key for her, the place where she can grow are those white white-collar inner suburbs with college-educated voters, especially women? That's what she's going to need to offset what were probably be very strong performances for Trump and Trump country. And maybe some cracks benefiting Trump in the inner cities.
TAPPER: That's interesting.
So the race dead heat and -- take a look at this "Wall Street Journal" poll, what's your opinion of -- this is the favorability. Harris's unfavorable rating increased four points since August. That's not what you want to see if you're the Harris campaign obviously one of the one of the issues going on here is that the Trump campaign has gone in with lots of TV ads and defined her, which is their job, which is what we know what campaigns do. But that's not, that's not good for her.
MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, but I still think people are still going to know, 90 days on the campaign. She's delivering, you know, her closing argument with a contrast between her and Trump. I think over 3 million people tuned into the town hall last night,
which is an incredible viewership. It's showing that people are still wanting to know more about her. So of course her favorability was going to drop from where it was in August. When should we are on a sugar high from her? I would not be too concerned about this if I were them, they still have two weeks to continue to make their closing argument to these undecided voters or to get people off their couch to vote.
TAPPER: What do you worry about as a Republican? What concerns you?
I know that -- I've heard the positive, the positive spin and positive narrative from Republicans and people are familiar with it.
What do you -- what are you concerned about going into this?
MATT MOWERS, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: I think the only thing you're concerned about is do the -- I mean, if you look at every poll, one of the first times in our lifetime, probably that Republican benefits from higher turnout. You look at the numbers Harris consistently is doing better with likely voters, Trump is doing better with registered voters.
And so, I'm going to flip this on its head a little bit. What's giving me some comfort as Republican is your seeing incredibly high turnout in early voting and a lot of these key states right now, and that's actually probably a good thing for Donald Trump. It means that the voters who are less likely --
TAPPER: The low -- the low propensity voters.
MOWERS: Low propensity voters, irregular voters as folks who are basically determining, do I vote or do I stay on the couch. As of right now, they're voting. And if you look at the makeup of those who are voting early, including absentee voting in Pennsylvania early voting in Georgia, a lot of them, especially on the Republican side, are trying to these less lower-propensity, less regular voters in the makeup, overall makeup of the percentage of turnout.
TAPPER: So, Ron, earlier this month, you wrote that to blunt Trump's appeal, the Harris campaign needed to remind voters what they might fear from having him back in the White House. She went -- she took that advice last night at the town hall. There was a lot of -- well, the Trump campaign would call it fearmongering. The Harris campaign and her supporters would say a reality check on the threat that Donald Trump poses.
But when you go negative, when a candidate goes negative, you also run the risk of alienating voters.
BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think she has come up with an interesting bridge right? There -- there is a fierce debate in the Democratic Party about whether the way to close the race is by focusing on the risks that a second Trump term would pose, as opposed to emphasizing what you can deliver for the middle class. And there's obviously a demographic component of that because the democracy rights values argument is mostly aimed at those college educated suburban voters that I'm talking about, that aren't as economically squeeze.
And the other one is about reassuring, basically working class, nonwhite voters and maybe some working class non-college white women. I thought what she said last night and again, today was a pretty elegant kind of bridging of this. When she said Donald Trump will have an enemies list and I will have a to-do list, which basically takes both of these messages and combines them. And I am guessing we're going to hear a lot of that argument between now and the finish line.
TAPPER: So, when you talked about the low propensity voters, one of the things about that they're trying to get these younger millennial men, Gen Z men. Part of that has been Donald Trump going on Joe -- he is going to go on Joe Rogan tomorrow, I think, teaming up with Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson was at an event and spoke at a rally in Georgia and said some unusual things. I want to get your take on.
Let's run that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, TV HOST: To the point at which dad comes home. Dad comes home and he's pissed. When dad gets home, you know what he says? You've been a bad girl. You been a bad little girl and you're getting a vigorous spanking right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOWERS: I mean, I don't remember geriatric millennial at this point, so I don't know what really speaks to me. I don't quite get it, but ill tell you when I am texting with friends from college, I went to college with yeah, they love it, right? The guys love it.
I haven't spoken to many of the women about how they feel about that.
[16:25:03]
But the millennial guys are just fired up by that type of rhetoric. They think this is a -- and it's not -- calling it a battle probably over makes it sound more serious. There's a tinge of like sarcasm in the way they approach it all, too, tinge of humor they approach this, while they also feel like the stakes are very high.
BROWNSTEIN: Yeah, that's way more insight into the psyche of Tucker Carlson than I think any of us wanted to have.
TAPPER: But I think -- I think there's something going on here which is --
BROWNSTEIN: The generation gap among Gen Z is probably even wider than it is among older.
TAPPER: And what is this do -- what about the women voters?
HAYS: No, women find that disgusting and find that vulgar, and I think that that just is going to create a bigger divide. And I think that this is going to where he's targeting men and he's targeting his base. And this is great on social media and plays well there.
But this isn't targeting people who are undecided or who are decided heading whether or not they're going to stay home.
TAPPER: But maybe -- but maybe low propensity voters.
HAYS: And maybe that's what the turnout is.
MOWERS: The messages right now between Harris and Trump are showing how the two campaigns either view this election differently or have different feelings about who they need to turn out. Trump is just trying to turn people out. Harris is now out there saying, I need these high-propensity Republicans are going to show up, may not love Trump to turn over. That's why you see her with Liz Cheney.
TAPPER: Yeah.
BROWNSTEIN: But, you know, the risk of second -- of Trump's second term message is aimed both at those high-propensity Republicans in the white-collar suburbs, but also some of these younger women who don't vote. And it is worth noting that the turnout and women turnout more than men in every possible demographic group you can look at.
But the gap is especially large among young people, young women, turnout significantly more than younger men. And, you know, she is looking at, you know, Trump is looking at historically strong performance as among Gen Z men, and she might have the best performance ever among young women two-thirds or higher.
So, you know, we're looking at different coalitions that are just pulling apart --
TAPPER: And you're saying there's a risk with the spanking, spanking message. That --
BROWNSTEIN: There is at risk with this spank -- and I will -- I am your protector is also same risk. It's all the same risk.
HAYS: But I also think there are men who find that offensive. I don't think that men would want but someone to talk to their daughters and their wives like that. I just think that you run a risk of alienating undecided voters.
TAPPER: Thanks, one and all, appreciate it. We're standing by for that major news conference from the Los Angeles district attorney with whom we spoke earlier this week, his pending decision that will impact the murder case of the Menendez brothers.
Plus, see the deposition video for Michael Flynn, Trump's former national security advisor. What he said under oath, about 20:20 election conspiracies versus what he was telling the public.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:31:18]
TAPPER: And back now on THE LEAD with a live look at Los Angeles as we wait for the press conference from the district attorney of Los Angeles in the Menendez brothers' case.
We're waiting specifically on the district attorney who will offer a recommendation on whether or not the Menendez brothers others should be re-sentenced. We're going to bring that to you.
Let me bring in -- we're going to bring that to you as soon as it begins. But in the meantime, let me bring in Jean Casarez to get us all up to speed.
Jean, what's going on here, specifically has to do with whether or not it was appropriate and the right thing for the judge back in the '90s to have excluded the evidence that the Menendez brothers had been sexually assaulted by their father.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And it wasn't excluded from the first trial. It came in that was a mistrial. The second trial it came in a bit but it did not come into the full extent. And so what the district attorney we believe is going to say is that there should be a re-sentencing here and this sentence was life without the possibility of any parole. So that is not something that normally would go to re- sentencing, but he's saying because of new evidence and he is saying it was letter that Erik wrote his cousin, Andy, saying, I'm scared of my dad coming into the room.
Well, new evidence under the law is evidenced that wasn't around at the time of the trial. And if the jury had been able to know about that evidence, they could have acquitted them.
Well, a Barbara Walters special in 2015 that I found she had the letter. She had just been sent the letter from the family. She read it on that special. She also said that the trial court in 1993, it was offered as evidenced, that letter and the trial judge said, I don't see that it specifically is showing sexual abuse at the hands of the father.
So we have to see if he addresses that letter and still calls it new evidence. The other is rehabilitation. He says that rehabilitation is an important part of prison and that there has been rehabilitation here. They should get out because of rehabilitation and have that re- sentencing.
But Jake, how many people in prison believed they have been rehabilitated from very violent crimes and maybe some have, maybe some haven't. But that would be revolutionary for our justice system. And there was a Senate bill in California that was up to be passed in August on this very issue and they had to shelve it because there was too much controversy from victims, advocates, from district attorneys offices around the state. And so it'll be very interesting to see what he says in this presser that's just about to happen.
TAPPER: And now let me bring in criminal defense attorney Misty Marris. And, Misty, there is no dispute the Lyle and Erik Menendez killed their parents. The question at hand here is whether or not in 2024, we as a society have a different understanding of sexual assault of boys and men that maybe was not part of accepted judicial proceedings in the '90s?
MISTY MARRIS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Correct, Jake. That's all part of it. So, there's a couple of different avenues here that the Menendez brothers are pursuing. And Jean laid it out.
One is what's called a habeas corpus petition, that's basically the last chance for any criminal defendant to attempt to overturn their conviction or their sentence. That happens after every other appellate relief has already been done and denied. Then on the other hand, we have California where the district attorney set up a re-sentencing taskforce and that's what you just brought up is very relevant.
[16:35:08]
It allows factors to be taken into consideration, such as whether or not the individuals were subjected to psychological, physical abuse, whether or not there are factors today that would be looked at differently as opposed to when the conviction occurred.
Also, there's a reason why there's such a focus on how the Menendez brothers behind bars rehabilitation.
TAPPER: And, Jean, let me let me bring you back also, just because I wonder a lot of folks who aren't as expert on criminal defense proceedings as you are. When -- let's just give me -- I'm just going to give you a hypothetical example. Let's say that there is a woman who has been raped and she kills her rapist, she still might go to prison. But the fact that she was killing somebody that had caused her grievous harm, that's factored into the sentencing?
CASAREZ: Well, let's say that it happened right at the moment that a crime was being perpetrated upon her, that can be a manslaughter, that can be something that is not life without the possibility of parole versus a premeditated killing. This was a premeditated killing.
They tried to get guns in Beverly Hills, didn't work, went to Orange County, finally, San Diego, three hours away from Beverly Hills, they bought two shotguns. They talked about it for a long time. They planned it.
Now the defense, Leslie Abramson, very famous attorney, she said afterwards that the defense was fear. They were in fear of their parents, which, Jake, brings another issue there are two life sentences here the father let's say he did abuse the sons, that's fear right there. But the mother didn't do that. She didn't sexually abuse them.
And the defense was at the time of the trials, they believed she knew but they killed them both at the same time.
TAPPER: And, Misty, what do you think this decision will be? I mean, there are news reports suggesting that the district attorney is going to urge a re-sentencing hearing.
MARRIS: Well, that's exactly what Jean just said. It's looking at it through the lens of today, would this have been a voluntary manslaughter? And if it were a voluntary manslaughter, then the sentence would have already been served because the maximum amount of time that could be given was already served.
Now, Jake, I would have told you from the beginning, this is a long shot, but the way that the district attorney has been handling this case, it indicates that there may be a positive result for Menendez brothers.
Does that mean that they get out immediately? No, it could be a recommendation for what's called an indeterminate sentence, meaning they're eligible for parole. And the parole board would ultimately decide if they're able to get out of jail before their sentence is complete.
TAPPER: But, Misty, what about what James has said about the fact that the mother didn't pose any violent threat to the suns and they killed her, too?
MARRIS: Well -- yes, Jake, so that is a great point. And the district attorney is taking all of that into consideration and we've always lumped them both together. Both the victims and the defendants in every single discussion we've had about this case. However, it is absolutely a factor that will be taken into consideration by the district attorney and keep in mind, he's not the final word on it he will make a recommendation at the judge could probe into those issues as well. Ultimately, when a decision is made, a judge has to sign off on it.
TAPPER: All right. We're standing by for the district attorney to step up to the podium there. We're going to squeeze in a quick break.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:42:29]
TAPPER: Welcome back.
And we're still waiting in our law and justice lead for the Los Angeles district attorney to come forward to issue his recommendation on whether or not he wants the Menendez brothers to be re-sentenced. We're going to bring that to you as soon as it begins.
But in a different law and justice lead, for years now, Michael Flynn, retired general, Donald Trump's former national security adviser, has been going around to anyone who's going to listen, claiming that the 2020 election was stolen. Here's just a little sampling of some of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: That's the beauty of our vote in this country and how it always has been until we started to see these is undermining of our system or election system and our election integrity.
I think that -- I think that the 2020 November election was filled with fraud and there's all kinds of evidence that shows that, Chris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Reminder, there is no legal liability when it comes to lying to the public. If there was, quote, all kinds of evidence has Flynn suggested in that clip there -- he didn't acknowledge any of it in a deposition -- deposition earlier this year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe that Dominion voting systems rigged the 2020 election? A yes or no question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to foundation.
FLYNN: Yeah, I don't really know. I mean, I don't really know. I know it's -- I know that there's a lot of -- you know, there's a lot being contested, I know that. I don't know that to be true or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen any evidence that you would consider credible, Mr. Flynn, that Eric Coomer played a role in rigging the 2020 presidential election? Yes or no?
FLYNN: I have not. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe that Eric Coomer rig the 2020 presidential election?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to foundation.
FLYNN: No -- yeah. I mean, no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen any evidence that makes you suspect that he rigged the 2020 presidential election?
FLYNN: No idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: It's amazing how these guys changed their tune when they're -- when they're oath.
[16:45:04]
Let's bring in members of the CNN Justice team, Zachary Cohen and Paula Reid.
Zach, first to you. This new extensive reporting on Flynn, how did he end up sitting for a deposition in the first place? ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Jake, you have to go back more than three years ago to when Eric Coomer and Dominion voting machines was at the center of some of those fraud claims. Flynn and other Trump allies were trying to use as a pretext to overturn the 2020 election results.
You might remember those draft executive orders that Flynn had a hand in putting together and ultimately presenting to Donald Trump during the chaotic Oval Office meeting, Coomer's name-checked in those documents.
TAPPER: Who was -- who is Coomer?
COHEN: Eric Coomer is that former executive of Dominion, and he's really the centerpiece of a conspiracy that the right wing and ultimately, people like Flynn has embraced to sort of try to stand up these claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election.
As we just heard, Michael Flynn when forced to tell the truth about any awareness of evidence, he said that he's not aware of any. So you took that show on the road and the year since founded this tour, his worldwide speaking tour, its continuing to say that though 2020 election was rigged and warning the same about 2024.
TAPPER: Except when he's under oath, then he doesn't say that, the deposition was this past April. What's he up to now?
COHEN: Yeah.
TAPPER: Flynn?
TAPPER: He's been saying the same things, although a little bit more vague about the 2020 election, and he's really looking ahead to 2024, warning that the 2024 election will be stolen by Democrats again, producing no evidence to support that and really encouraging people who buy into the big lie, buy into this idea about 2020, to take drastic measures to ensure that their vote isn't stolen.
And ultimately, you hear a lot of similarities between what he's saying publicly and what Donald Trump himself has been saying about the 2020 and 2024 election.
TAPPER: Paula, this case comes in the backdrop of a bombshell ruling in Pennsylvania. Tell us more about.
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course, Pennsylvania, the biggest prize in the Electoral College right now, and here, the states Supreme Court has ruled that if you mail in your ballot and it is found a faulty because you made a mistake, a common one, is putting your birth date instead of the actual date, that you should be able to go in-person to your polling place and file a provisional ballot that will be counted after your eligibility is confirmed.
Now, in reporting on a lot of these legal issues related to the election over the past few months, I've learned that these mistakes are common, this is a loss for the RNC. They're challenging to voters who say that their provisional ballots were not counted only two- thirds of the counties in Pennsylvania actually tell you if you made a potential mistake.
So were watching very closely all of these challenges in Pennsylvania because it's all planting the seeds to potentially challenge the results in that state.
TAPPER: All right. Paula, Zach, thanks so much.
We'll be right back.
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[16:51:29]
TAPPER: And today, the Harris campaign is touting new endorsements by conservatives in blue wall battleground states, one of them is the mayor of the red city, Waukesha, Wisconsin, who changed his party registration from Republican to independent after the January 6 insurrection.
In 2020, Trump won Waukesha County with nearly 60 percent of the vote. But that mayor has endorsed Kamala Harris.
The other is a Republican, former congressman from Michigan, Fred Upton, who joins us now live in studio.
You voted for Trump in 2020, but you've already cast your ballot for Harris. This is the first time you've ever voted for a Democrat for president?
FRED UPTON, FORMER MICHIGAN GOP CONGRESSMAN: It is. It's the first time I ever voted for Democrat for president.
TAPPER: So, why?
UPTON: I mean, I've split my ticket off at times, but never for president. It's always for the nominee, but, you know, Washington mess, you know that better than anybody else.
The only way you're going to be able to govern in the next couple of years, this next administration is if you're working together, it's going to be a close margin in the Senate, sentence going to flip in my view, House is going to be really close, razor thin, couple of votes you can't -- you can't get anything done unless you work on both sides.
Harris, she's going to have Republicans in administration, including in the cabinet. I thought she did fine last night. I watched your reviews as well, but I thought she did fine. I mean, she talked about immigration bill that she would sign. No, she's not big on the border wall, but it's part of it. It's okay.
TAPPER: So I know she's definitely reaching out and she's definitely reaching out to Republican women. You see her campaigning with Liz Cheney and you see her campaigning with others who used to work for the Trump administration and are now endorsing her.
Do you think that's going to work or do you think were going to be Republican women who vote for?
UPTON: I do. So I watched her trip to Michigan. I wasn't there but I saw the press reports and that was one Detroiter who said, you know, I'm a Republican I've never voted for a Democrat for president, but I want my party back. There's a lot of people like that.
And when you look at Michigan, what makes Michigan a purple state? Its -- you know, we all go like this, right? It's Grand Rapids, the Kalamazoo to Battle Creek, to Oakland County. It's not the UP. It's not Holland, Michigan. It's not Macomb County.
It's this area here, that swath of counties. And in that swath, you got Susan Ford, you've got me, you got former Republican Congressman Joe Schwartz, and former Republican Congressman Dave Brat, all supporting Harris because she is going to be able to work with both sides of the aisle.
And I think that makes a real difference between people that are on the fence, right now?
TAPPER: Yeah.
UPTON: Like that one voter who is quoted in a Cheney-Harris tour, I want my party back.
TAPPER: Yeah.
UPTON: Why can't we work together?
TAPPER: So, no, well, I look -- I mean, I hear -- I hear what you're saying. Have you heard from your former colleagues in the House of Representatives, Republicans mad at you or secretly supportive?
UPTON: Yeah, I've heard from a few and I've heard from a lot of them.
TAPPER: Right.
UPTON: But I can guess where they are. I mean, for an incumbent member of Congress, they got to be with Trump. I understand that. They're going to get beat in a primary. They're going to lose me.
You look at Larry Hogan --
TAPPER: Right.
UPTON: -- in his race. I mean, the reason that these likely to lose is the Trump voters are going to say, you said you're going to be independent, you're not going to be for Trump. You're off my list. I'll vote Republican the rest of the way. They -- they don't care.
But, you know, I've heard from a number of, you know, particularly my former Republicans -- remember there's now more than 30, I never as a time that I can remember that you've had more than maybe one or two. In fact, I can't name one.
[16:55:01]
We've had a former member endorse the presidential nominee of the other party. I look at Bill Paxon. He was the head of the NRCC. Can you imagine Tom Emmer today?
TAPPER: Yeah.
UPTON: The former head of the NRCC, now the Republican whip. Can you imagine him ever endorsing a Democrat for president?
TAPPER: No, no.
UPTON: Bill Paxon was the same way. I've served with him. Susan Molinari, there's a lot of former Republicans that are said enough. We want our party back. We got to govern whether were in control or not. We know its going to be close.
The issues are too important today to just have one way issue to try and get things done.
TAPPER: All right. Former Congressman Fred Upton, it's good to see you, sir, from the great state of Michigan.
UPTON: Go Blue.
TAPPER: Go Blue. You know my daughter is going to go there.
UPTON: I know. We got a big game this weekend.
TAPPER: All right. Well, I know --
UPTON: I'm not going to upset my party fans next year.
TAPPER: The team is a whole other thing -- the team is a whole other thing. Thanks for being here. Really appreciate it.
Last night, CNN held a town hall with Kamala Harris in a room full of undecided Pennsylvania voter. Some not convinced she should be elected president. What will it take to win their vote? I'm going to ask a long time presidential adviser, next.
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