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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Picks Rep. Matt Gaetz To Serve As Attorney General; Interview With Senator Chris Murphy (D-CT); Police Arrest Protesters In Amsterdam. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 13, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:24]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Let me begin to show by uttering some words that I never contemplated using together before. And those words are, U.S. Attorney General Matt Gaetz. If you were wondering what Trump without the guardrails looked like -- well, we're getting an idea beyond the theoretical. We're starting with breaking news on so many fronts related to President- elect Donald Trump's administration.

President-elect, of course, Trump announced just minutes ago on Truth Social that he is picking Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida to be the next U.S. attorney general. Gaetz is currently facing a House Ethics Committee investigation over whether he may have, and I should note before I even outline the charges, Gaetz denies it all. The House Ethics Committee in a statement this year said they're looking into whether he may have, quote, engaged in sexual misconduct and illicit drug use, accepted improper gifts, dispensed special privileges and favors to individuals with whom he had a personal relationship and sought to obstruct government investigations of his conduct, unquote. Again, Gaetz denies it all.

Gaetz also famously led the movement to oust former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. In that post on Truth Social, just minutes ago, Trump said of Gaetz, quote, Matt will end weaponized government, protect our borders, dismantle criminal organizations and restore Americans badly shattered faith and confidence in the Justice Department. Matt will route out the corruption at the Department of Justice and return the department to its true mission of fighting crime and upholding our democracy and Constitution.

This attorney general announcement comes on the heels of two other significant Trump picks this afternoon and one yesterday. Trump also plans to appoint a one-time Democrat who announced this, former Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii to be the director of National Intelligence. Yesterday we heard that he intends to nominate "Fox and Friends" weekend co- host Pete Hegseth, who's a decorated veteran, to be secretary of defense.

Buried amidst all these announcements in less shocking news, Trump officials confirm what was reported two days ago that President- elect Trump wants Senator Marco Rubio of Florida to be his secretary of state.

So, let's dive into all of this with our team. We're going to start with CNN's Kristen Holmes who's covering the Trump transition, plus CNN's chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Kristen, tell us more about the decision to pick Matt Gaetz to be the U.S. attorney general, the top cop.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly seems Marco Rubio might have been put out today as a buffer for two other much more controversial picks with Matt Gaetz and Tulsi Gabbard. Now, when it comes to Matt Gaetz, a couple things to go over here, and that is what the Trump administration wants in an A.G., an attorney general, and what it wants out of the Justice Department.

One of the things we talked about extensively is how Donald Trump plans to run the Justice Department. He does not want to see it as an extension of the executive branch. He wants to he see it as something completely underneath the executive branch. In order to do that, he needs an attorney general who is on board. And there's almost no one on board with Donald Trump more than Matt Gaetz.

Now, this was a surprise to a number of even his insiders and allies. However, the people that I know who are close to the former president are applauding this decision. They have said they believe Matt Gaetz is capable, that he is smart.

Just a reminder, Matt Gaetz has appeared at Donald Trump's side a number of times on the campaign. He prepped him for both debates and he has followed through on Donald Trump's agenda in the House time and time again. He is a bomb thrower. And the big question, of course, being whether or not he can actually get confirmed. One of the conversations we have been having over the last week and a half is what exactly Donald Trump needed in an attorney general. With the names floating around, none of them were as loyal to the former president as Matt Gaetz is.

And the other thing to point out here, Donald Trump has said a number of times that he wanted to pick people that he knew would further his agenda. People that he believed were loyal to him, who believed in the cause of make America great again. Again, there is no one who is more loyal to Donald Trump than Matt Gaetz.

So in this idea that Donald Trump wanted to build the Department of Justice as an extension, or underneath the executive branch to where essentially he would have control over, not only the Department of Justice but the attorney general, the legal cases that have been brought against him, seeking retribution against various attorneys and judges, he has found somebody who he clearly believes will help him further that agenda in Matt Gaetz.

[16:05:05]

Of course, we are also asking questions as to how exactly this seemed to have unfolded so quickly. We have been going through the list with various senior advisers. We've been talking about where Donald Trump's mindset was at. And at no point so far have we heard that he was mulling Matt Gaetz as a top contender.

So, of course, we're reaching out to our sources to see how exactly unfolded. When you take a step back, again, you go over all the rhetoric we've heard from Donald Trump for the past two years, there really is not a better pick for what Donald Trump wants out of an attorney general and out of the Department of Justice than Matt Gaetz.

TAPPER: Yeah, he's always been saying, when he was in his first term, he said he wanted a Roy Cohn. Where is his Roy Cohn at the Justice Department? Or he thought Eric Holder was a very loyal attorney general for Barack Obama. And this, I guess, is his Roy Cohn.

How often do Trump and Gaetz speak, Kristen?

HOLMES: They see each other all the time. We know he's been in and out of Mar-a- Lago on multiple occasions. We saw him on the plane on multiple occasions, traveling with Donald Trump. The campaign again, notably, he was the one who prepared Donald Trump for both debates. I actually talked to one source who said they believed that Matt Gaetz, if he decided to ever leave Congress, he would be an amazing debate prepper. He was the one who actually took it a step further with Donald Trump pushed him in ways some of his other senior advisers did not.

Now, again, if he's ever going to lead Congress, it appears perhaps that would be for the job of attorney general. Not someone who premed someone for debates. But Donald Trump and Matt Gaetz speak all the time. They have a very consistent relationship.

TAPPER: And, Paula, you've been talking to sources today and your reporting suggested that they did not think that Matt Gaetz name was on the short list for attorney general.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, nowhere was his name mention in the any of the conversations that I've been having over several months about who Trump, if re-elected, would select as attorney general. They were talking about Matthew Whitaker, the former acting attorney general, Ken Paxton, the Texas attorney general.

And one of the reasons that Gaetz's name did not often enter the conversation is because he has, of course, been under a criminal investigation by the Justice Department for several years.

Last year, that investigation was closed. He was not charged. This investigation into the congressman was looking at allegations of possible sex trafficking and allegations of obstruction of justice, trying to interfere with that investigation. That probe was actually started during the first Trump administration. It was overseen by Attorney General Bill Barr, and it lasted for several years and it ramped up when his long-time friend and confidante Joel Greenberg flipped, became states witness and started providing evidence against the not contract.

Now, he repeatedly denied wrongdoing, like I said, he wasn't charged. But the congressman is now the subject of an ethics probe on the Hill looking at many of the same allegations. It was always thought this would make him a nonstarter for a potential attorney general pick.

But here, President-elect Trump believes that this is the person that will go to the justice department and do what he wants him to do. The question, of course, is whether he can get confirmed. That remains to be seen. But if he wants someone to go and root out corruption, you're selecting someone who's actually been under an investigation for obstruction of justice, something that was open in the Trump administration. So, that's why I think part of why this is such a controversial pick.

TAPPER: Right. Although I guess if Matt Gaetz were here, and Congressman Gaetz, you have an invitation to come on the show. If Gaetz were here, he'd say, that's precisely why he should be picked because he's innocent. That's what he argues. And this is an example of the weaponization of government.

REID: I would push back on that, Jake, because again --

TAPPER: That's not me saying it. I'm channeling my inner Gaetz.

REID: -- and we're going to hear this, but it was the Trump Justice Department that opened the Gaetz probe.

TAPPER: Of course, and we should note the House Ethics Committee, which is 50 percent Democrat, 50 percent Republican, has looked into the allegations against him and as recently as June they put out a statement. They dismissed some of them but continued to investigate the ones that I mentioned at the top of the show.

The question I have for both of you is, will these accusations -- and accusations are not convictions -- will they prove problematic for a Senate confirmation process? Or, there's also the possibility that Donald Trump will try to use a recess appointment to put him in without confirmation. Paula, what do you think?

REID: Well, I think it would make for a very explosive, provocative confirmation hearing. Covering the investigation for several years, it has to do with alleged sex trafficking, allegedly having sex with someone who's only 17 at the time.

We reported on parties that were sort of drug-fueled sex parties in gated neighborhoods in Florida. It's all very salacious and I guess it is up to voters, up to the senators to determine if these are things that they believe disqualify him from being attorney general because Attorney General Merrick Garland, a Biden appointee, decided the conduct was not actually criminal.

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They did not want to move forward with the case. So I think in terms of being disqualifying, it is a very salacious, tawdry investigation. I do think though, senators will want to look very closely at the allegations of trying to obstruct the allegation. That is even more problematic to the role of being attorney general. If you're trying to interfere with a federal investigation. So, again, it will make for a very exciting, very interesting

confirmation hearing and it is up to the senator to decide if it is disqualifying.

TAPPER: If there is a confirmation hearing. Remember, Donald Trump wants the Senate to adjourn so he can do recess appointments. This seems like a decent one that he might pick if I had to guess.

REID: I would pick it as well.

TAPPER: Yeah. Paula Reid, Kristen Holmes, thank you so much.

Let's go to CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

Manu, what is the reaction on the Hill? To be completely frank here, it does not seem impossible that he would pick somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene for his cabinet now that he's picked Matt Gaetz. Am I wrong?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, he's got the votes. And you're right, Jake, if he decides to do recess appointments, he can pretty much do what he wants.

But in talking to Republicans in the aftermath of this breaking news, they are making it clear this will be a rocky confirmation process, many of them noncommittal about supporting him. And not saying if they will him, including some very close Trump allies.

I caught up very briefly with Senator Lindsey Graham, and I asked him if he could get behind Matt Gaetz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Reaction to Matt Gaetz as A.G.?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Yeah, I don't know yet. I have to think about that one.

RAJU: Do you have any concerns about him?

GRAHAM: We'll see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And others spoke a little more at length including Senator John Cornyn who is also a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He fell short and said we'll have to do our job as to Advice and Consent function. Very noncommittal when I asked them if he would support him.

I also asked Senator Thom Tillis, another senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and he said Mr. Gaetz and I have jousted on certain issues between the House and the Senate. He said at the end of the day, it only comes down to whether you have the credentials and also the relationships. And, of course, what Tillis was referring to was Gaetz central role in

pushing for the ouster of Kevin McCarthy that last year. That made him very unpopular and faced a barrage of criticism from Republicans in the Senate as well who viewed the whole episode as showcasing how the House was dysfunctional, how they could not govern and the like.

And they pointedly blamed Gaetz for leading the charge McCarthy. That, along with the questions about this ongoing House Ethics investigation into sexual misconduct, Gaetz has denied any wrongdoing, but I asked Cornyn about that, too, Jake, and he said, I'm sure that will come up at the confirmation hearings. So, that's one of the things that members will want answers to on that topic as well.

TAPPER: Yeah. Interesting decision by the senator to invoke sword fighting as a metaphor there regarding Matt Gaetz, thanks so much, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

Let's talk more about this.

Matt, the chief public accuser of Matt Gaetz is the former speaker, Kevin McCarthy.

Here he is earlier this year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: I'll give you the truth why I'm not speaker, because one person, a member of Congress, wanted me to stop an ethics complaint because he slept with a 17-year-old. An ethics complaint started before I ever became speaker. And that's illegal and I'm not going to get in the middle of it.

Did he do it or not? I don't know. But ethics is looking at it. There's other people in jail because of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: OK.

MATT MOWERS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Everyone is very subtle these days. I think if you were trying to make it easier for every other nominee to get confirmed, this was a great day because he'll draw all the attention, all the lighting. What is interesting is that of all days, its today. The day the U.S. Senate went, they selected John Thune. They didn't support Rick Scott who is the MAGA favorite, or MAGA Twitter favorite.

So, they showed they are somewhat insular from some of the political pressures from the vortex. It will be interesting to see if they keep up sort of discipline and separation as they look for the confirmation hearing especially in the case of Matt Gaetz.

TAPPER: Yeah, we should note for people not familiar with John Thune, he is an establishment Republican. I don't mean that as an insult. He's from South Dakota. He's Republican whip. He was a next in line.

MOWERS: He was next in line. He had the majority walking into the day, close to majority support.

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And then pulled it out which most observers expected except in the last 24 hours or so, there was this real pressure to go with Rick Scott. Clearly, the senators had their own decisions they want to make on that.

TAPPER: Well, now, senators are going to have to decide assuming there is a confirmation hearing what they think about the Matt Gaetz attorney general nomination to say nothing of Tulsi Gabbard for DNI. Pete Hegseth for secretary of defense. I think Marco Rubio, they'll probably just wave him in at this point.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Lindsey Graham said, I'll have to think about that. Translation, heads are exploding in the Senate among Republicans. They do not want this.

I mean, John Thune is going to stop answering his phone. Heads are exploding at the Justice Department because this goes against the kind of candidate, Republican or Democrat, that the DOJ sees as an appropriate candidate.

I think it also speaks to two things. This is Donald Trump on steroids. It's not just that he has the house and the Senate and a mandate. He feels --

TAPPER: And immunity from the U.S. Supreme Court, at least partial, yeah.

GANGEL: He feels he can do this. When we say that Matt Gaetz is loyal to Donald Trump, the translation here is, in the position that we have said, the most sensitive cabinet position. He has put a yes man in there. There are going to be no guardrails if the Senate Republicans confirm him.

TAPPER: And let me remind people at home because our standards are changing so much in this society so quickly. Neera Tanden, a Democratic operative and official who I think is now secretary of the cabinet in the Biden White House, a nonconfirmable position, she was rejected for the Office of Management and Budget because she had written some snarky tweets. She had written some snarky tweets and her confirmation was sandbagged.

DOUG THORNELL, CEO, SKDK: Yeah. I mean, look, that's where we are as a country. And you're talking about someone who was under investigation by the DOJ. I think for the immigrant community, for the civil rights community, for the pro- choice community, they have to be ready for a fight with the DOJ for -- with the Trump administration. Because so many things that those communities care about under attack.

And there are no guardrails. And now Trump has someone who will execute whatever he wants to execute. And Matt Gaetz, say what you wants about him, he's very good on television. He's a very good communicator. And that's where the Trump world is really surrounding himself with

people who can communicate, maybe not in the way I like. But a way in which a lot of Americans listen. We'll see how the policies end up getting accepted. I think he will have a hard time over the long term with this cast of characters that he has.

TAPPER: I mean, maybe, maybe not. We'll see. We'll see. I mean, we'll see if the Republicans in the Senate, how they react.

THORNELL: Why wouldn't they vote to confirm him? You have a president with 34 counts, convicted of 34 felonies. I'm pretty sure the bar is so low now that anyone can get confirmed.

TAPPER: Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

The breaking news, President-elect Trump selecting Florida man, Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz to be U.S. attorney general in his brand new administration. Can Gaetz be Senate confirmed? Will there be any confirmation hearings?

I'm going to ask a Senate Democrat and Senate Republican, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: And we're back with breaking news. Brand new cabinet picks by President-elect Trump.

Congressman Matt Gaetz has been selected to be his new U.S. attorney general.

Senator Marco Rubio is officially nominated to be the U.S. secretary of state.

One-time Democrat-turned-Republican, Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, has been picked to be the director of national intelligence.

And late yesterday, Trump selected "Fox & Friends" weekend co-host Pete Hegseth, a decorated veteran, to be secretary of defense.

I want to bring in Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. He's on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, the breaking news, the pick of Congressman Matt Gaetz to be the next U.S. attorney general. Your reaction?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, I was walking off the Senate floor just moments ago when the news was announced. You could literally hear the jaws dropping to the floor of Republican senators who are now going to be in a position to stand up to Donald Trump in a way that they have been unwilling to.

And listen, Matt Gaetz is dangerously unqualified, but that's not the worst of it. Gaetz has been Trump's chief defender when it comes to Trump's assault on democracy. His attempt to overthrow the government on January 6th. And he has openly called for the abolition of law enforcement agencies if they don't get in line with conservative political priorities.

This is going to be a red alert moment for American democracy. Matt Gaetz is being nominated for one reason and one reason only, because he will implement Donald Trump's transition of the Department of Justice from an agency that stands up for all of us to an agency that is simply an arm of the White House designed to persecute and prosecute Trump's political enemies.

This is a stunning announcement in some ways, but not surprising in others because Trump told us during the campaign that he was going to use the White House to go after people who politically opposed him and it seems that this pick for the head of the Department of Justice is very much in line with the promises he made during the campaign.

TAPPER: Senator, what do Republicans have now, assuming that McCormick is the winner of Pennsylvania, which I think everybody, except for Bob Casey, has acknowledged, 54 Republicans? Is that right?

MURPHY: Well, I don't know. It may be 53 in the end.

I mean, listen, there are -- there are some very decent human beings in the Republican conference who maybe didn't stand up publicly in a way that we had hoped, but they're going to be faced with a very difficult decision.

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Many of them know Matt Gaetz. They know the investigations that he has been under. They know the fact that he is, you know, essentially a media celebrity who is just out to try to benefit and boost himself.

We will see whether they do what they've been unwilling to do thus far during this calendar year -- stand up for democracy. Stand up to Donald Trump.

TAPPER: But, ultimately, don't you think he's going to be confirmed? I mean, don't you think that all of the Senate Republicans are going to vote for President Trump's nominees?

I mean, do you really think any of them will vote against Huckabee to ambassador to Israel, or Tulsi Gabbard to be director of national intelligence, or Pete Hegseth to be secretary of defense, or Matt Gaetz to be attorney general?

I mean, do you -- can you really think of -- can you name one Republican that will vote against any of those individuals?

MURPHY: Well, I mean, obviously, some of this news is breaking within the last ten minutes so I can't come on air and try to guess about the votes of my colleagues. I will talk to them over the course of the next few days and make the case that maybe the most important nomination at this moment is the nomination for attorney general, right? The entire credibility of government rests upon the belief that law

enforcement is there to protect all of us. That it is an independent entity. It is not just to be used at the political whim of the president.

Matt Gaetz is being nominated because he will be and is today a political agent of Donald Trump. The ramifications of this pick, this particular pick, are stunning and potentially cataclysmic for American democracy. I hope that some Senate Republicans will see that.

TAPPER: So there's also another option which we haven't discussed which is that President-elect Trump has made it clear he would like the Senate to adjourn so that he can make recess appointments, and the brand new Senate majority leader, John Thune, like the other two people he was running against, all three said sounds good. Like it.

So it is entirely possible, unless there's some Democratic maneuvering that I don't know about, that they'll just adjourn, right? The majority will just vote to adjourn and Donald Trump will say, okay, recess appointment, all these people, and especially and including Matt Gaetz as attorney general, no?

MURPHY: Well, I mean, that would be the end of the United States Senate.

If the Senate chose to end its power of Advice and Consent and just allow the president to choose without any input, confirmation process or approval of his cabinet. I don't know why we would show up to work. That's not a democracy anymore. Our Founding Fathers would be rolling over in their graves.

So listen, this is all happening very fast, Jake. We are going to have conversations in the senate, especially with the handful of Senate Republicans who do care about American democracy, and see if we can come to some conclusions to make sure that we preserve the power of Advice and Consent, and try to find coalitions that can push back on some of the most dangerous nominees.

TAPPER: It's interesting that there are 53 or 54 Republican senators and you said there are a handful that care about American democracy. I mean, that's the number you characterized. A handful means like five or under.

MURPHY: I think there are many Senate Republicans who sort of thought about Trump in the same way that a lot of his voters did, that he were -- he was talking this big game of overthrowing democracy, being a dictator on day one, using the Department of Justice to go after his political enemies, but he really wouldn't do it, right?

There was I think a suspension of belief that was happening in parts of the American public but also parts of the United States Congress. There's no way to suspend that belief structure any longer.

Donald Trump is telling with you the choice of Matt Gaetz that he is going to weaponize the Department of Justice and fold it into the White House. Maybe some minds will change now that they are seeing that reality in full view.

TAPPER: Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut -- thanks so much. Good to see you.

MURPHY: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: A Senate Republican is going to join me next with reaction to the Gaetz selection.

Plus, another controversial pick. Why critics flagged Fox News co-host Pete Hegseth, a decorated veteran, as secretary of defense? A closer look at his profile, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:33:19]

TAPPER: More now on our politics lead. President-elect Trump just announced Congressman Matt Gaetz is his choice to be U.S. attorney general. Gaetz is not the only surprising pick. There's also combat veteran, Ivy League educated, "Fox & Friends" weekend co-host Pete Hegseth who's been tapped to lead the Defense Department.

CNN's Oren Liebermann has Hegseth's profile.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The next secretary of defense could reshape the entire military. Pete Hegseth, the Fox News host and Army veteran, emerged as a last second surprise even to many in President-elect Donald Trump's orbit.

In announcing the pick, Trump called him tough, smart and a true believer in America first, on major policy issues facing the Pentagon, the Princeton and Harvard graduate's view comes across as blunt and short on specifics take China.

PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS HOST: They have a full spectrum, long-term view of not just regional but global domination and we are -- we have our heads up our asses.

LIEBERMANN: And on Russia, Hegseth said he doesn't see President Vladimir Putin as a strategic threat to Europe.

HEGSETH: I think he's probably knows enough to know that probably not going much further than Ukraine.

LIEBERMANN: During his military career, Hegseth deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, receiving two Bronze Stars for his service. He also served at Guantanamo Bay and has defended waterboarding alleged mastermind Khaled Sheikh Muhammad.

A major in the Army national guard, Hegseth if confirmed would go from mid-grade officer to running the agency he has railed against. Much of his commentary about the military has been an outright attack on its top leadership. HEGSETH: They'll do any social justice, gender, climate extremism crap because it gets him checked to the next level and gets him closer to the political appointees who don't know anything about the military really.

[16:35:03]

LIEBERMANN: Hegseth has said a Trump administration should start by firing the chairman of the joint chiefs, General CQ Brown, a frequent right-wing target.

HEGSETH: Well, first of all, you got to fire, you know, you got to fire the chairman and joint chiefs and you got to fire this -- I mean, obviously, you're going to bring in a new secretary defense.

LIEBERMANN: Hegseth has also derided DEI, critical race theory and wokeness. He claimed in June that one-third of the country's most senior officers are complicit in the politicization of the military.

HEGSETH: I would say over a third are actively complicit and then you have a lot of grumblers who are sort of going along.

LIEBERMANN: Hegseth has even questioned women serving in combat roles.

INTERVIEWER: You don't like women in combat.

HEGSETH: No.

INTERVIEWER: Why not?

HEGSETH: I love women service members who contribute amazingly because everything about men and women serving together makes the situation more complicated and complication in combat means casualties are worse.

LIEBERMANN: In a 2016 interview, Hegseth also attacked Muslim immigrants who don't assimilate in language echoing the anti-immigrant rhetoric of the far right. On Secure Freedom Radio, he said we have to be willing to confront those who want assimilate to the ideas of our country and show allegiance to them lest we find ourselves in a place where there's a silent invasion of groups of people who have a very different view of the future that looks nothing like America nothing like freedom.

In 2019, Hegseth publicly pushed for service members accused of war crimes to be pardoned and praised President Trump when they were. Hegseth's defense of Trump includes denying the election results and broadcasting those claims on the Mall on January 6th before the riot.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIEBERMANN (on camera): Despite all of the questions about whether he has the qualifications to get confirmed, he has what is likely the single most important qualification under President-elect Donald Trump and that is loyalty to what would be his commander-in-chief, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Oren Lieberman at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

Joining us now live in studio, Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin from Oklahoma.

Thank you so much for being here, sir.

So you serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee, some of your colleagues were caught by surprise by the announcement of I think -- he's Major Hegseth. I mean, he's a he was a retired major in the in the army, obviously a decorated veteran. But I -- you know, running the Pentagon that's running that's two or three million people.

What do you think?

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Well, I think about it -- what -- what is the defense secretary's position? A secretary of defense is supposed to be a civilian position, right?

TAPPER: Yes.

MULLIN: He fits that bill. He also has two Bronze Stars and served 20 years in the military. He also has a military experience the whole point of the secretary of defense is to bring a different perspective to the Pentagon.

Remember, in the Army or any of those branches, it's all about understanding the command structure. So there's no way a one star is going to question a four star and there's no way a colonel is ever going to be questioning a one star, nor, will a sergeant major question a major. So there the civilian role is a pivot point to bring in that that common sense sometimes outside of the chain of command and say hey what are we looking at? And I think he fits that. I --

TAPPER: Well, he's certainly a civilian and certain -- obviously --

MULLIN: With military experience.

TAPPER: And obviously, he served honorably. What do you make of the criticisms that he doesn't have the experience in terms of running a two or three million person operation? And also, you know, he's pretty -- his strong views that might alienate some of the people under him in terms of like one third of the generals or one-third of the senior office holders or are you know I forget the exact words he used, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but criticizing them women shouldn't be in combat, et cetera, et cetera?

MULLIN: Well, when you start looking at what condition our branches of the military's in right now, it's -- it -- they're in dismal position. We're in -- we have no low numbers in the Air Force, we have low numbers in the Marines, we have low numbers in the navy. We have low numbers in the space force. We have low numbers in the army.

And so, something's going on wrong. It can't be going great, and when in any type of big organization, when the top is responsible for what's happening below them and if the top's not getting it right then yeah it's time for them to go. And I think that's a perspective that we need to bring in.

So I'm not concerned about his ability not to ever run a large corporation. That isn't the requirement. That is never the requirement. The requirement is that President Trump gets to nominate the individual and the Senate gets to confirm them, and I trust President Trump's decision in this one.

I feel like he's a good pick that'll bring a perspective to the -- to the Army or to the military or to the Pentagon without being necessarily politically correct. Political correctness is what's killed this country right now. People just want to -- tell me what it is, tell me what the facts are and let's move forward.

And you're not going to agree with every decision he makes, you're not going to agree every decision or you or I make. But I do feel like he's going to come up from perspective and keep in mind, he did serve this country. He does have a love for this country. He has respect for the service, too, of the men and women that's in -- that's in uniform.

[16:40:03]

He just brings a unique perspective that may be different than you and I. But I -- I'm actually excited about the pick.

TAPPER: I want to note that you were publicly supporting Senator John Thune of South Dakota to be the Republican leader, and he won uh that election. What do you think that means and how concerned are you about -- I mean, there's a lot of questions right now about is the U.S. Senate under Republican control going to stand up for the Advice and Consent role of the U.S. Senate, or is it kind of just kind of bend and go along with whatever the president wants? What about that debate?

MULLIN: We're going to work very closely with the president. President Trump won a resounding election on November 5th and the American people won a different direction. That's why he won the popular vote by almost 5 million and last time I checked, 312 electoral votes. That hasn't happened in quite some time.

And the idea that that uh we're not going to work the president never crossed my mind. So the Senate and the House has got to work closely with the president. The American people gave us that mandate.

At the same time, we feel very confident on the direction that Thune and President Trump is going to lead us. President Trump and John Thune has worked really hard at building the relationship. There were some questions about that relationship like he's Mitch McConnell 2.0.

I can tell you there's a different type of leadership through John Thune. I consider him a friend. I consider President Trump a friend and I'm excited about them working together and leading the American or the American in the right direction.

I think that the -- that the American people are going to see a unified government working for the people again, and I'm very -- I'm very excited to be part of it. TAPPER: Is the Senate going to confirm Matt Gaetz to be attorney general or do you think there's going to be just recess appointments?

MULLIN: No, the recess is a little more difficult than that. It -- keep in mind, the way the recess works, President Obama tried to do this in 2014, and the struck -- the court struck it down. So to just go through the process -- first of all, both chambers have to recess for days the minority party which in this case the Democrats does have a lot of leverage to pull to keep us open at the same time.

During that recess appointments during that days they're temporary appointments they only last until the next Congress begins or a maximum two years. So, it's not ideal. The ideal way is for us to move forward, but if that's the last resort. We will absolutely do it.

If Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate want to keep us from making any of these appointments, we are going to do our best to do whatever we have to do to get the cabinet in a position and get the appointments in the position so President Trump can go to work on day one. So we will do whatever it takes, but that's the last resort.

TAPPER: Last resort.

Are you going to vote for Matt Gaetz?

MULLIN: You know, Matt Gaetz and I, there's no question, that we've had our differences. They've been very public about it. I completely trust President Trump's decision making on this one, but at the same time he's got to come to Congress and sell himself. There's a lot of there -- or to the Senate and sell himself.

There's a lot of questions that are going be out there. He's got to answer those questions and hopefully he's able to answer the questions right and if he can, then we'll -- we'll go through the confirmation process.

TAPPER: Senator Markwayne Mullin from the great state of Oklahoma, good to see you, sir. Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Coming up next, the reaction at the Justice Department when they heard the Congressman Matt Gaetz was picked to be their next boss.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:33]

TAPPER: And we're back with our breaking news. Quote: the shock is intense, unquote, a U.S. Justice Department employee tells CNN.

That's the audible reaction inside the Justice Department's headquarters to the news that President-elect Trump is picking Congressman Matt Gaetz, Republican of Florida, to be the U.S. attorney general. Carrie Cordero is with me. She served at the Justice Department as counsel to the assistant attorney general for national security.

So, Carrie, Elon Musk who has become one of Donald Trump's closest advisers, most visible advisers, just posted about the Gaetz pick, saying, quote, the hammer of justice is coming, unquote. What do you think the conversations are like inside the DOJ right now? Have you heard from any colleagues who are still there?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, no, I haven't talked to any colleagues in the last hour, spent a long time at the department and I don't think they think of their job as the hammer of justice. I think they think of their job as adhering to the Constitution, enforcing the law, protecting national security, protecting civil rights and all the other important functions that the department does.

And so, the question is, will there be an attorney general who is capable of leading the important work of the department and will that person do the job in a way that is in adherence with the rule of law?

And that's really what department lawyers and staff want to know. Department attorneys are of different political persuasions they park their politics at the door and they want to know that there's going to be an attorney general that will support their work and do so in a fair way.

TAPPER: What are the options for individuals in the Justice Department if they think they are being given orders that are contrary to their job -- contrary to what they are supposed to be doing?

CORDERO: So, first off, I think it's important to note, there's a lot of layers of political appointees that are in between the attorney general and most department attorneys. And if those political appointees, so these are assistant attorney generals, deputy assistant attorney generals, all who will be selected by the new Trump administration and appointed to their position some of them with Senate confirmation and it will be their job to insulate line prosecutors, line attorneys from having political influence drip down into their day-to-day work.

[16:50:08]

But there are whistle line prosecutors line attorneys from having political influence drip down into their day-to-day work, but there are whistleblower protections available, there is an office of inspector general. And so, there are also formal channels that employees will have available to them.

TAPPER: All right. Carrie Cordero, thanks so much.

Outside Trump's cabinet picks, we're also tracking another big story -- fears of even more antisemitic violence in Amsterdam and fears of antisemitic violence coming to France. CNN's Clarissa Ward is going to bring us up to speed on what's behind that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: And we have breaking news in our world lead.

Major pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel demonstrations outside of an Israel is forever gala in Paris tonight. French police are on the streets, ahead of tomorrow's match between the Israeli and French soccer teams. There's been serious concern about a repeat of the antisemitic violence that we've seen, especially that that erupted after an Israeli-Dutch game last week in Amsterdam.

CNN's Clarissa Ward is in Amsterdam for us.

And, Clarissa, earlier there were protests in Amsterdam. Tell us what's going on there now?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Jake, now, the police have effectively dispersed that protest which took place in defiance of an all-out ban that Amsterdam's authorities have put in place after last week's violence on any kind of demonstrations.

[16:55:14]

We were in Dam Square. There were roughly 400 free Palestine protesters what was most striking I think because honestly, Jake, the protest look like many that we have seen over the course of the last 13 months now, was just the extra ordinary police presence a huge number of police they went through methodically. They encircled the protesters. Took them off in buses to take them to another location outside the city where they were told they could protest freely.

But certainly not taking any chances absolutely a sense that there is still tension here there is still concern that we could see the sorts of riots antisemitic violence we also saw last Thursday, anti-Muslim violence. It's a very charged atmosphere.

I spoke to one city councilman today, Jake, who said the fear is that we have not yet even reached the boiling point -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Clarissa Ward in Amsterdam for us, thank you so much.

More reaction to the big announcement today, President-elect Trump picking Congressman Matt Gaetz to be his U.S. attorney general. Are more shocking picks on the way?

CNN's Kaitlan Collins has sources close to the incoming Trump administration and she's going to join us live next.