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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Picks RFK Jr. For Health & Human Services Secretary; Interview With Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY). Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 14, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:08]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we begin with breaking news in our politics lead, in the daily parade of controversial in-your-face names for President-elect Donald Trump's cabinet. According to two people close to this situation, President-elect Trump is on the verge of announcing Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the vaccine denier, as his next secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services. RFK, a devout skeptic of childhood vaccines endorsed Trump after suspending his own presidential campaign in August. He has been advising Trump's transition team.

Here's just one of his many controversial comments, this one about COVID.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. (I), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: COVID-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese. And -- but we don't know whether it's deliberately targeted that or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Not true and stunningly quackery. This news about RFK Jr. comes as aftershocks have yet to die down over Trump's announcement that he wants now former Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida to be attorney general.

Let's get right with CNN anchor Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, what do we know about how Trump came to this decision about RFK Jr. that I feel is clearly going to upset the medical and scientific community whether they're Trump supporters or Harris supporters?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see. I mean, talk about tough confirmation battles, Jake, this is going to be an interesting to one to watch just even if it gets out of the committee, because that had been a major concern here but I have been in Palm Beach ever since Trump won the election Jake basically day by day, and by being down there, none of this is a surprise that that Trump is on the verge of announcing RFK Jr. as his pick for HHS secretary.

Now, we are told that he has accepted this position that's what Kristen Holmes has told. I was told Trump's on the verge of announcing it nothing is final until Trump himself has announced it you can ask the people who've been picked for these jobs they have even said that themselves that they're waiting until he actually says it.

But this one was pretty clear the writing was on the wall that Trump really wanted to give RFK Jr. essentially whatever job he wanted in the federal government after he won the election. The two of them have grown quite close ever since RFK dropped out of the presidential race and endorsed Trump here.

He's been hanging out at Mar-a-Lago. I saw him when I was in Palm Beach, a very tiny island it was kind of teaming with all these people who are who were cabinet hopefuls and now Donald Trump has offered him this job as the health and human services secretary, which is obviously a huge and encompassing job, Jake, and we saw just how important it is and how at the forefront it can be when the COVID-19 pandemic was happening.

And what's happening behind the scenes here, Jake, is that RFK Jr. very clearly wanted a job in the federal government and when I did an interview shortly before the election maybe days or so before with one of the Trump transition co-chairs, Howard Lutnick, who is essentially in charge of all the personnel aspect of this, the other co-chair is in charge of the policy side, we asked him specifically about this because he had just sat down with RFK Jr. for about hours in that interview with me he then repeated the very same vaccine conspiracies that we have heard RFK Jr. baselessly, promote that are inaccurate.

And in that interview, though, Jake, Howard Lutnick told me that RFK Jr. was not going to be getting the job at HHS. I followed up and confirmed because the question then before the election had been whether or not he could get confirmed in the Senate. It seemed very unlikely at the time. I think now with what we've heard from other Senate Republicans on these other controversial picks, it's still a question of whether or not that can happen. I don't think anything is a given no at this moment.

And this is something that Trump was prioritizing, Jake, because he does have this close relationship with RFK Jr., wanted to give him the job he wanted despite what he has said before and despite real concerns that we've heard from people about what the authority of running HHS would do and how RFK would wield that authority.

TAPPER: What do you think the mindset is of President Trump when he makes picks like these? Is he -- I mean, obviously these are all very, very loyal aids advisers and the like, people who have defended him campaigned for him so I get and I get that that's important to President Trump and to any leader really to have loyalty.

But there's almost -- there seems from the outside almost like a daring the Republicans who run the Senate to go against him kind of quality to this. I mean, these are with the exception of Marjorie Taylor Greene who he has not named anything yet, these are a number of -- like these are lightning rods not just, you know, among the media, not just among Democrats, not just among Never Trumpers.

[16:05:09]

Among the American people among experts in intelligence or the Pentagon or law and justice or in health and medicine. Is that part of the attraction?

Like, I mean, I know he likes to disrupt things but is that part of it, or is it just -- is it just -- I have a mandate, I won, I won handily and I'm going to do whatever I want.

COLLINS: You know, it's a great question, Jake, because typically you know when a president takes office and they're making their cabinet selections they keep in mind you know how controversial is this confirmation process going to be, what's this going to look like and sometimes when they're difficult ones they withdraw those nominations and that could certainly happen here. It happened in Trump's first term.

But what I had heard from talking to people yesterday after the Pete Hegseth pick for DOD, Matt Gaetz for attorney general, about how Trump himself was viewing the blowback, the criticism, the questioning from even Republican senators about the viability of these people as candidates for these jobs, Trump does not seem to be bothered at all by the negative coverage of it, or the blowback to it. And that's different from the first time he was in office.

And with RFK, none of this will be a surprise. All of the clips that you'll see where he's linking autism to vaccines even though that's been completely debunked, where he's linking, you know, mass shootings to prescription drugs, all of these things that are just his conspiracy theories that he has pushed.

I mean, they know all of that is going to come. There's not some vetting process that's been happening behind the scenes where they're like what's the most controversial statement from him, they know all of that is going to be part of this and they're still picking him anyway, Jake.

And I think that's a good point, that they are daring Republican senators to defy Trump on this and they may not.

TAPPER: Yeah. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

And look for Kaitlan in her reporting in just a few hours on "THE SOURCE". That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern, only here on CNN.

Let's bring in CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay -- Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, I know you like to steer clear of politics, but this really isn't about politics because this is somebody who has been Robert F. Kennedy Jr. who has been pushing quackery who has been pushing lies, who has been pushing conspiracy theories. You've been talking to experts in the health community, the medical community, preparing for him, RFK Jr., to be given some sort of role in health. What have they said to you?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's not often that the entire medical and public health community is going to be in lock step on something but they're pretty close on this in terms of their significant concerns, horror even. Somebody said to me today, I can't think of any single individual who'd be more damaging to public health than RFK.

Keep in mind, I think if the reporting is correct and the job is the secretary of health and human services, that comprises the CDC. You know, we just got through this pandemic, comprises the FDA, comprises the NIH. He's talked about wanting to basically strip funding for infectious diseases overall, again just coming out of this pandemic with concerns about other viruses and things out there.

The challenge I think is that at the same time there is this whole idea that we're not a very healthy country. We spend $4.5 trillion on healthcare and we have some of the worst outcomes in the in the developed world and our food supply and other things are partly to blame things that he's talked about. So there's these kernels of agreement with regard to the medical establishment and the public health establishment in particular.

But then there's these other things like Kaitlan was just talking about that are they're not alternative views, they are false views. People often say well these are alternative views. They're not. They -- you know, people say, well, look, I think maybe vaccines could be linked to autism.

Fair enough, that was -- that was an issue that came up and it was studied in these large studies, global studies involving hundreds of thousands of kids who were followed for over a decade to see if there was in fact a link. Some of the studies actually showed that you were more likely to have autism if you were not vaccinated.

But the point being that issues are raised, issues were studied and yet they still keep coming up. And I think that's one of the big concerns. That's a metaphor I think for other things that people are concerned about with him.

TAPPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Let's bring in our panel and talk about it.

Jamie Gangel, let me let me start with you. What are you hearing from your sources about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. being picked to be head of that Department of Health and Human Services?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, it's another example of you better take Donald Trump at his word.

TAPPER: Yeah, he's been saying this, not surprised in terms of he likes Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

GANGEL: Correct. And Senator John Thune, the new majority leader, has his hands full. [16:10:02]

He does not want to look at his phone again today. I mean, it was Matt Gaetz yesterday and now this. I think it's important though to now see how the Republicans in the Senate handled this. They cannot claim to have buyers' remorse. They were all in on this.

One Republican source said to me: I'm not sure they will be able to reject all of them, meaning you have all of these controversial picks. It's not just one.

And another senior Republican said to me, no one should be surprised this is Donald Trump 2.0. It's a new kind of chaos but Trump feels emboldened. He simply doesn't care about the rest of the party. It's all about him and we're expected to be loyal. It's a one-way street.

TAPPER: Yeah, just to remind people the department -- the head of the Department of Health and Human Services in the first term was a respected Republican member of the House, Dr. Tom Price, who was a physician.

GANGEL: Right.

TAPPER: Former Congressman Dean, I want to play something that RFK Jr., he was asked about his expertise. He is obviously, Kennedy, not a scientist, he is not a doctor, he does not have any degrees in this stuff.

So, Smerconish, who has a show on CNN on Saturdays, ask him, well, what's your expertise? Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT KENNEDY JR. (I), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because I've spent a lot of time studying and writing books --

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST: Right.

KENNEDY: -- I -- and litigating these issues, I have a very detailed domain knowledge of these areas that make it very, very difficult to defend orthodoxies in the -- you know, because I just -- I know the area so well. So, yeah, it is almost for -- particularly on vaccines, it's almost impossible for anybody to interview me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So he wrote a story for salon.com and "Rolling Stone Magazine" about vaccines back in 2003, 2004. "Rolling Stone" and "Salon" had to retract it. It's been disappeared from "The Rolling Stone" website because it was so false. Just because somebody writes something down doesn't make it true.

CHARLIE DENT (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, PENNSYLVANIA: Well, it -- this seems like there's a war on expertise and science or experience. I mean, not just RFK, Jr. I mean, this is crazy. I mean, the science of vaccines I thought was settled a long, long time ago and we're having this debate.

But, you know, look at Matt Gaetz. You know, what qualifies him to be head of the Justice Department.

TAPPER: At least, he's a lawyer.

DENT: Okay, okay.

TAPPER: I'm just saying. Well, I'm just saying every day the standards get a little lower.

DENT: You know, Hegseth at Defense, again, good service, but this is no Richard Perry or Bob Gates or Jim Mattis. We expect people, you know, with a lot of gravitas and you know, Tulsi Gabbard, I'm a friend of Tulsi Gabbard's. But you know, she -- they're going to be red flags about her relationships with Syria and Russia.

And so it just seems like Trump is being awfully defiant, he doesn't care about expertise or in this case medical science and so, that's what's so troubling about this. And I suspect they're going to be a lot of push back and some of these -- with some of these nominations are going to have to be withdrawn.

RAMEESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: I think in addition to the question of expertise, there's also the question of capability of running a larger organization. Pentagon, HHS, you know, the Justice Department, these are large sprawling organizations.

TAPPER: Eighteen intelligence agencies.

PONNURU: Arguably too -- arguably too large and too sprawling, but these are people who have not had experience in running these sorts of large organizations and you do have to wonder whether they can do that.

And you also have to wonder about the Senate and their own self- qualifications because if you are not exercising your constitutional duty to provide advice and consent here, what is the point of your being in office.

TAPPER: All right. Everyone, stick around. We got a lot more to talk about. We're going to have much more reaction to the breaking news. A source telling CNN that Trump is on the verge of officially nominating Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Department of Health and Human Services.

The House Majority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is going to join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:00]

TAPPER: Back with our breaking news, President-elect Trump on Truth Social just made it official.

He wrote, quote: I am thrilled to announce Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as the United States secretary of health and human services. For too long, Americans have been crushed by the industrial food complex and drug companies who have engaged in deception, misinformation and disinformation when it comes to public health.

The safety and health of all Americans is the most important role of any administration and HHS will play a big role in helping ensure that everybody will be protected from harmful chemicals, pollutants, pesticides, pharmaceutical products and food additives that have contributed to the overwhelming health crisis in this country.

Mr. Kennedy will restore these agencies to the traditions of gold standard scientific research and beacons of transparency to end the chronic disease epidemic and to make America great and healthy again, unquote.

And House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries joins us now.

Leader Jeffries, your reaction to this breaking news that President- elect Trump is expected to nominate RFK Jr., Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to be the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, great to be with you, Jake. Since the election we've made clear that we will work to find bipartisan common ground with the incoming administration on any issue whenever and wherever possible in order to make life better for the American people, but, of course, we will push back against far-right extremism whenever necessary.

Throughout the campaign, the former president promised America the very best, promised the best economy, promised the best border security, promised the best administration possible. The question that we all have to ask with respect to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and others, is this America's very best? Is this the best that America has to offer to safeguard the health and well-being of the American people?

Of course, it's not, and that's problematic and it's an unfortunate sign perhaps of what's to come.

[16:20:06]

TAPPER: What are your issues specifically with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as HHS secretary?

JEFFRIES: We understand he's completely and totally unqualified as it relates to protecting the health, the safety, and the well-being of the American people. We have a lot of challenges emerging from the pandemic. We need serious folks with a serious background and serious expertise. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is, of course, none of the above.

TAPPER: President-elect Trump has also nominated one of your former colleagues, I guess now that he's resigned, Congressman -- former Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida to be U.S. attorney general. I know that they're top Democrats in the Senate -- on the Senate Judiciary Committee calling for the House Ethics Committee to release its findings and its investigation into Matt Gaetz. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): The timing of Mr. Gaetz's resignation from the House raises serious questions about the contents of the House Ethics Committee report. We cannot allow this valuable information from a bipartisan investigation to be hidden from the American people.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I am going to demand release of the ethics committee report, all of its findings and recommendations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you think the House Ethics Committee should report -- should release the report on Gaetz even though he's no longer a member of Congress, so it's no longer his -- their jurisdiction I suppose?

JEFFRIES: Well, the House Ethics Committee has traditionally operated in a bipartisan fashion. You know, I have great amount of trust and respect in the top Democrat on that committee, Representative Susan Wild. I haven't had an opportunity to have a conversation with her about what's possible.

Certainly, full transparency is always the preferred approach, but the House Ethics Committee has always operated in a straightforward fashion, not as part of a command and control structure connected to leadership from either the House Republican side or the House Democratic side, and I'm just hopeful that consistent with that background, with that history with the integrity of what the House Ethics Committee should represent, that it chooses to do the right thing, consistent with House rules and with the law.

TAPPER: So what are you expecting the Senate to do when it comes to some of these more -- some of the more controversial appointees, whether your former colleague Tulsi Gabbard as director of national intelligence, Matt Gaetz as attorney general, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at HHS, Fox News co-host and decorated veteran Pete Hegseth at the Pentagon.

Do you expect that they're all going to be confirmed?

JEFFRIES: Well, certainly would be surprised if that in fact was the case based on some of the reaction from some of the moderate Republican senators to several of these elections.

But at the end of the day, what's going to be most important is that both the House and the Senate commit to functioning as a separate and coequal branch of government and that we elevate the principle of being a check and balance on a potentially out of control executive branch.

That is the vision of James Madison and the framers of the Constitution as to what we should be doing in the House and in the Senate and House Democrats are committed to just solving the problems that the American people want us to solve, which first and foremost relates to lowering costs and making sure that we can help everyday Americans who are struggling to live paycheck to paycheck get ahead and not simply get by. And all of this that we're seeing over the last few days seems to me to be a distraction from the mission that all of us should be focused on in the context of delivering real results for everyday Americans and solving real problems for hardworking American taxpayers.

TAPPER: Democrats failed to win back the house majority yesterday. In a closed door meeting with the House caucus, you owned the loss. You told members the buck stops with me. Plenty of Democrats are already out there saying that what really hurt uh down ballot races was the refusal of President Biden to bow out of the race until July and then Vice President Harris not able to connect with voters concerns not distancing herself from Biden.

So you're blaming yourself. What -- what did you do wrong?

JEFFRIES: Well, what I said was, you know, throughout this current Congress, we have outgoverned the House Republicans, we outworked the House Republicans, we outraised the House Republicans, but we've fallen a few seats short in terms of getting to the 218 that we need to reclaim the majority.

[16:25:03]

And as a leader, it's important to take accountability for that fact and to figure out the path forward in terms of what we need to do better, what we've done right and where we can improve to make sure that we're in the strongest possible position to deliver for the American people.

And as a team, we're going to move forward with a family conversation over the next several days, next several weeks, over the next several months, that is candid, that is clear eyed, that's comprehensive. You know, we're proud of our frontline incumbents, 27 of 28 of whom out of 31 who will return to the United States Congress, who won tough races, notwithstanding an adverse national environment.

We're proud of the fact that we held four out of the five most competitive open seats no one thought that that was possible, particularly given the political climate that we confronted and we're proud of the fact that we've defeated more House Republican incumbents than they've defeated House Democratic incumbents.

And so, House Democrats are going to be able to evaluate where we are and where we need to go and I look forward to leading that effort, leading that effort with clarity and leading that effort with humility at the same time.

TAPPER: Well, on the note of humility, you talk about the political climate, I mean, Democrats are responsible for the political climate, right? I mean, inflation, the border, the gaslighting about President Biden's fitness and acuity, that's -- I mean, it's -- it's not like climate like actual climate that you actually have no control over, you and Democrats had control over some of this.

JEFFRIES: But what we've seen all across the world in every single advanced economy is a post-pandemic level of inflation that hit working class people hard. That's the reality of what the United States of America has confronted, what Western European democracies have confronted, and what advanced economies all across the world have confronted, and that related specifically to the shutdown of the economy as a result of a once in a century pandemic and when demand came roaring back, when the economy was reopened all across the world, the supply chain was lacking.

That triggered levels of inflation that were unacceptable and we've got to do a better job, of course, of working hard to lower food prices, lower gas prices, lower housing prices, and that's something that we're going to lean into and the American people correctly have said they want that issue addressed decisively.

We've going to have to ask the question are some of these extreme picks that have been presented into the public domain for the future cabinet of the next administration consistent with what the American people have suggested. They want to see tackled in the strongest possible way.

We will do that as House Democrats. We're hopeful that as we move forward, we'll have an administration willing to partner with us as well.

TAPPER: House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, Democrat of New York. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

JEFFRIES: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: CNN's Manu Raju is also on Capitol Hill. What he's hearing about the selection of RFK Jr. for the Department of Health and Human Services. Plus, reaction to other controversial administration picks by president-elect Trump. We're going to squeeze in a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:36]

TAPPER: We continue with our politics lead and the breaking news that President-elect Trump is now confirming that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. will be his pick to be the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services. RFK Jr., a notorious vaccine denier, anti-science, anti-medical establishment gadfly.

I want to play what Donald Trump said before the election about -- including RFK Jr. in his new administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm going to let him go wild on health. I'm going to let him go wild on the food. I'm going to let him go wild on medicines. The only thing I don't think I'm going to let him even get near is the liquid gold that we have under our feet. I don't know, Elon, he might not like liquid gold, it's oil and gas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

Manu, what are you hearing there about this selection?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Senate Republicans and Senate Democrats, they're actually gone for the -- until Tuesday, they just left this afternoon for the week, right as this news broke. So a lot of members have not reacted yet.

Senator John Cornyn who is a prominent Republican, sits on the Senate Finance Committee which would have a vote to advance this nomination to the floor, reacted cautiously when asked about this by our colleague Ted Barrett, said he just wants to review his own personal views, wants to hear more from him during the confirmation hearings, but he didn't tip his hand one way or the other about this.

Democrats however are acting much more sharply, including in the House side where I just caught up with the number two House Democrat Katherine Clark who reacted strongly about RFK Jr.'s nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KATHERINE CLARK (D-MA): I have great concerns for someone who has shown complete disregard for public health.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANU: And I -- you can expect more Democrats to echo that line, though Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer who's the outgoing majority leader as he was leaving the Senate, declined to comment about this when caught up by when our colleagues asked him about it as he was leaving.

We do expect to hear from Senator John Thune, the incoming Senate majority leader, as he leaves today. So we'll get a sense on how he is assessing this but, Jake, he has been handling all these nominations pretty carefully right now not saying one way or the other how he'd respond, Jake.

TAPPER: And this is just obviously one day after Trump announced that he wants former Congressman Matt Gaetz to be his attorney general.

[16:35:02]

Senator Susan Collins of Maine says she was shocked by the Gaetz announcement. Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska called Gaetz an unserious candidate.

What else are you hearing from Senate Republicans?

RAJU: Yeah, there's a big push now to have the House Ethics Committee which is a bipartisan panel has been investigating Matt Gaetz for more than a year about conducts allegations of sexual misconduct, allegations that Gaetz denies, but they want that report to become come out publicly. That's mostly coming from Senate Democrats who are demanding that to be released.

Some Senate Republicans also are aligning with that view as well, including Senator John Cornyn, who sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee as well, says he wants to see that report. But the -- that committee, Jake, plans to meet tomorrow morning to discuss the fate of that long awaited report.

This all comes as a lot of Republicans have negative views about Matt Gaetz to say the least, about things that he's done over the years, including his effort to oust Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the House, he led that charge successfully.

One of the members who has been very critical about -- over Matt Gaetz, I caught up with them moments ago, Mike Lawler, and I asked him if he stands by his past criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Pretty sure I called him a clown and a charlatan.

RAJU: You're sticking by that?

LAWYER: Yeah.

RAJU: One quick question, should clown and charlatan run that Justice Department?

LAWLER: Look, obviously, the president has every right to nominate who he chooses. There will be a confirmation process. We'll let that process play it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And, of course, it'll all come down to the votes, Jake. There are 53 -- expected to be 53 Republican senators, assuming the Pennsylvania Senate race which is in a recount goes the Republicans way. That means they can only lose three at most Republicans on any party line vote, and that means that Matt Gaetz has some work to do in order to get confirmed -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

My next guest is a Republican just elected to the U.S. Senate and we'll now need to consider these controversial selections for confirmation, including Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for the Department of Health and Human Services. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:15]

TAPPER: Staying with our breaking news, Donald Trump's pick to be -- of Robert F Kennedy Jr. to be head of the Department of Health and Human Services. Let's bring in Republican Senator-elect Jim Banks of Indiana. Congressman, now senator-elect, congratulations on your big victory in Indiana.

I want to ask you, you wrote on Twitter or X in June of last year, quote, Kennedy Democrats are finding out the hard way they no longer belong in the Democrat Party. Not my grandpa's Democrats.

I don't know if that's a reflection at all on RFK Jr. and his support for Donald Trump but do you think RFK Jr. is the right man for this job?

REP. JIM BANKS (R-IN), INDIANA SENATOR-ELECT: Well this is the least surprising pick that Donald Trump has made so far he campaigned on giving RFK Jr. a seat at the table in his administration and putting him at the Department of Health and Human Services and to enact this make America healthy again agenda I think makes a lot of sense.

So I look forward to the confirmation hearings and hearing more of what RFK Jr. has to say, but this is the second prominent Democrat pick that Donald Trump has made to his future administration. He's uniting the country and he's carrying out the agenda that the American people elected him to do.

TAPPER: I think Congressman Tulsi Gabbard, if that's a your referring to, has changed her party registration to Republican but I take your larger point.

There is concern among medical and health experts, not about RFK Jr.'s drive to make food healthier or to tackle chronic illness, which are both laudable and important goals but because he has said so many false things in the past about childhood vaccines.

Here is what he said last week to Fox.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: I do believe that autism does come from vaccines, but I think most of the things that people believe about my opinions about vaccines are wrong. I -- you know, all I've said about vaccines we should have good science, we should have the same kind of testing, placebo control trials that we have for other -- every other medication. Vaccines are exempt from pre-licensing placebo control trial. So that there's no way that anybody can tell the risk profile of those products or even the relative benefits of those products before they're mandated. I -- we should have that kind of testing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, that -- I'm sorry. That was from June. It wasn't from last week but most importantly is that the scientific and medical community has been clear for years that what he says about vaccines -- childhood vaccines is false. They don't cause autism. There's no direct link.

Does that bother you at all? BANKS: Look, Jake, on the -- in the election, Donald Trump won the popular vote and one of the things that he promised on the campaign trail is to have a serious and thoughtful conversation about vaccines, especially after the pandemic, mandatory vaccines is a topic that a lot of -- a lot of American voters want to want us to tackle on Capitol Hills.

So I imagine this will be a big topic of discussion in the confirmation hearings, but remember, it's Congress that makes policy and works with the president -- President Trump to carry out his agenda and the secretary will be on hand to car to execute that agenda. So I feel very comfortable with RFK Jr. having a significant seat at the table to lead big debates about this at a time when obesity is so high, when health care issues are so important.

And I'll tell you, after serving on the House Education Committee for the past eight years, RFK is imminently better qualified and more prepared for Secretary Becerra who sits in that role today to carry out the agenda that the American people want.

TAPPER: Let me ask you because you are a member of the Navy Reserves. You served in Afghanistan.

[16:45:02]

Steve Bannon had this to say this week, he was talking to Erik Prince, former head of the private military firm once called Blackwater on his "War Room" podcast. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, PODCASTER: My strongest recommendation to the president, I think Mike Davis would -- would support this, is to re -- on day one, recall General Milley to active duty, which the president's commander-in-chief, has full authority to recall him to active duty and make him face a court martial.

ERIK PRINCE, FOUNDER, BLACKWATER: Yeah, he acknowledges that he was in contact with the Chinese counterparts. Is that really within the Constitution for him to be doing that? I don't think so. That's not his role.

Look, there needs to be a calling of the senior ranks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Milley, as you know, reached out to his Chinese counterparts when he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to reassure them after the election not to say anything contrary to what President Trump was saying at the time.

But I just wonder as a general note, do you support the kind of retribution and potential purging of military leaders that's being discussed right now?

BANKS: Look, Jake, General Milley is the most political general that I think we've had at least in a lifetime, if not much longer. He politicized the role -- a role that should never be political and he should be held accountable for that.

And what happened the fallout -- after the pull out in Afghanistan that he and the secretary of defense and Jake Tapper and others in the Biden administration that no one has ever been --

TAPPER: Jake Sullivan.

(CROSSTALK)

BANKS: Jake Sullivan, none of these guys have ever been held accountable for one of the biggest embarrassments in American history. I served in Afghanistan and the result of all of that today is the is a historic recruitment crisis in the American military and I think a lot of the blame falls on the shoulders of Secretary Austin and General Milley.

So I'm -- I'm about to become a United States senator and I hope to serve in a in a role perhaps on the armed services committee and I will be diligent and holding General Milley and others accountable for things that no one's ever been held accountable before.

I don't know what that looks like. I certainly wouldn't call that retribution but I think we have to hold people accountable for big mistakes to make sure that that mistakes like that never happen again.

TAPPER: So, just to put a point on it and then I got to let you go, but I definitely want to have you come back. That was not about accountability or criticism, that was about a court martial. So I hear you on the accountability and I hear you on the criticism, have at it, but that he was talking about court-martialing General Milley.

Senator-elect Jim Banks of Indiana, congratulations again on your win. Come back soon.

BANKS: Thank you.

TAPPER: Yesterday, it was Matt Gaetz. Today, it's RFK Jr. Will President-elect Trump add more controversial names to his cabinet list? I'm going to ask one of the most well-sourced reporters on all things Trump, next.

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[16:51:59]

TAPPER: Back with our politics lead and a total challenge to the system. That's how one Trump ally described to CNN the president elects cabinet and staff picks.

And with me now, Maggie Haberman of "The New York Times". We have rested her phone away from her because she is constantly breaking stories.

So thank you for giving us this four minutes in between you breaking stories.

Yesterday, Matt Gaetz. Today, RFK Jr. What is the mindset here? Is it "I can do whatever I want" or is he trying to dare Republican senators to go against him in some ways?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, I think the answer is yes. It's all of the above, right?

In the case of RFK, I think there is a you know promises made promises kept aspect you actually saw Trump's son say that on X, formerly Twitter. I think that's true.

I mean, I think there was an issue with RFK in 2017 when Trump had first been elected and was talk -- or maybe late 2016 was talking to him during that transition about some kind of role in the administration and other Trump aides were not happy with it and sort of shunted him aside.

RFK Jr. endorsed Trump, it did give Trump a big boost in real time and Trump's advisers really like him and want to uh show to their shared base that there was a commitment met.

In terms of Gaetz, they couldn't reach an agreement on attorney general and Gaetz is sort of the perfect distillation of what Trump wants in that role which is protector and fighter.

So if you look at it, it's not really surprising. That doesn't mean it's not controversial and it doesn't mean that it's easily going to get through the Senate but it's not totally surprising.

TAPPER: So, I mean, I could -- I could certainly understand why President Trump -- President Trump thinks he has a mandate. I can certainly understand why he thinks, look, I'm here to get rid of inflation. I'm here to impose tariffs. I promise that. I'm here to secure the border. I'm here to do things about crime, et cetera -- you know, all the list of things.

I don't think that part of the mandate, and this is just my interpretation but in terms of the people not his base but the people who voted for him who swung the election his way, I don't think they're there to get rid of childhood vaccines.

HABERMAN: I don't think that the vast majority of Republicans who helped vote for him are there to get child -- get rid of childhood vaccines, and I think we're going to see what ends up happening with that, and where it actually goes. But you are correct that not every single thing that is part of this coalition is something that everyone voted for. I think you just ticked off the items that most people thought that they were voting for.

We will see what RFK ends up doing with this. Are there aspects of what RFK talks about that actually are fairly popular with a segment of the elector -- I'm not talking about the vaccines, although Trump just remember --

TAPPER: He's also a vaccine denier, yeah. HABERMAN: Correct. But except on everything except for the COVID vaccine, which he's very proud of, but he is certainly --

TAPPER: RFK Jr.'s not proud of the COVID vaccine.

HABERMAN: I suspect that he will not contradict the sitting president on that. But there are issues that RFK talks about in terms of healthy eating and lifestyle and chemicals and food.

TAPPER: Sure, nobody has -- nobody has any issues with any of that.

HABERMAN: Of course, but you -- you're asking me a question about what it is that people thought they were voting for, people are very good at rationalizing whatever they want to about why they vote. And so, do I think that most people either believed that they will really go ahead with trying to crack down on vaccines for children? Probably not, we're going to find out what this looks like.

[16:55:02]

TAPPER: Do you think that there are more shocking appointments ahead?

HABERMAN: Yes.

TAPPER: Can you give --

HABERMAN: No, I mean, and like -- the most useless game that I have had to be reminded of repeatedly is --

TAPPER: Who might he pick, right.

HABERMAN: Who might he pick because he will change his mind, someone will undo a staff pick or a cabinet pick and so forth and so on. It's just not -- it's things -- things are too fluid with him, but I do think that they are looking to essentially shock and overwhelm the system so that they can maximize what the system will tolerate.

TAPPER: Right, and it is loyal -- not just loyal -- people who display fealty, MAGA warriors. That seems to be the constant theme. They are -- they are MAGA warriors, they are in your face. These are not uniting people. These are not uniting picks. These are in your face -- in your face to the medical community, to the intelligence community, to the military community.

HABERMAN: That's what he wants.

TAPPER: That's what he wants.

HABERMAN: Yes. And on that, Jake, I think he was quite -- quite clear what he was planning to do in office.

TAPPER: Sure.

HABERMAN: There's this whole sort of, you know, as you know, we've been talking about since 2015 or 2016 literally seriously thing with him. TAPPER: Oh, that whole thing, yeah.

HABERMAN: Right, you know, you should sort of assume he plans on doing what he's saying --

TAPPER: Yeah, he needs it.

HABERMAN: -- he's going to do at this point and so, yes, that is what these picks are designed to do.

Whether they all get through, we'll see. Does he end up doing recess appointments? We'll see.

I think that Matt Gaetz is going to be a bridge too far for some Republican senators. But we'll find out.

TAPPER: We -- we'll see on that one. I might have to take a wager with you.

HABERMAN: I'm not betting -- I'm -- no, but I'm just saying that is -- that is the one that could be too far. It also could not be. It also could be Trump has much more control over this Republican Senate --

TAPPER: Oh, yeah.

HABERMAN: -- than the one that he left.

TAPPER: When in doubt, bet on fealty. That's --

HABERMAN: Well, or bet on him grinding down his opposition at least to a lower posture.

TAPPER: Yeah, Maggie Haberman, the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter for "The New York Times," always good to have you here.

HABERMAN: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Thank you so much.

The Democrat who's praising Trump's selection of Robert Kennedy Jr. as head of the Department of Health and Human Services. We'll have that next.

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