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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump's Provocative Cabinet Picks; Trump to Declare National Emergency for Mass Deportation; Democratic Governors to Create Group to Resist Trump Policies; Rep. Mikie Sherrill (D-NJ) is Interviewed by Jake Tapper. Kremlin Accuses Joe Biden Of Throwing "Oil On Fire" Of Ukraine War With Long-Range Missiles Move; Ronan Farrow Explains How Your Phone Could Be Used To Spy On You; Prosecution Rests In Trial Of Daniel Penny; Spirit Airlines Files For Bankruptcy. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 18, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: -- how your device could be turned against you. Plus, the shocking death of a Russian ballet star, who like so many others in that country, accidentally fell from a building's balcony.

And leading this hour, President-elect Trump, defending his picks for the people he wants to serve in his incoming administration. Trump now facing a ton of questions about the backgrounds of some of his choices. CNN's Kaitlan Collins is covering the Trump transition. She just arrived back in West Palm Beach. Florida. Kaitlan, what are your sources telling you about how Trump is handling any of the pushback he's getting from Republican senators or others over his controversial cabinet picks?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: You know, Jake, it's interesting because I covered Trump round one and now seeing the differences in round two is notable. And one part of what happened the last time Trump took office is some of the people that he had put in his cabinet, either at the beginning or later on when he fired people, because obviously there was a lot of turnover at the Justice Department, at the Department of Homeland Security, at the Pentagon, at these key agencies that we're talking about right now, is when Trump would put someone new in or suggest a name, often if there was a lot of blowback or negative coverage, it could shift his view of that person.

And he also often did not want someone who was attracting negative attention. He wanted his picks to be praised and lauded and what's different this time around after having conversations with a lot of people in his orbit over the last 48 hours, Jake, specifically around the Attorney General pick and his Pentagon pick Matt Gaetz and Pete Hegseth, both respectively who are having their own issues when it comes to whether or not they are going to get Republican senators on board with their nomination or at least enough to get them confirmed.

Trump does not seem as bothered by the blowback this time. He is very much still behind both of them. What I've heard is he has not wavered on either really or made questions about whether or not he should have picked someone differently. Now there are some in his inner circle certainly who have raised those questions themselves.

But the former president and president-elect now has not raised that, Jake, and I think that's notable just given -- it really does showcase and highlight how Trump is approaching this the second time around and how he's viewing it and also how he's viewing Senate Republicans because essentially the thinking in Trump's orbit has been they're daring them to try to defy him certainly on these picks that he cares the most about like the Pentagon and the Justice Department.

TAPPER: And Kaitlan, Trump has not yet picked a Treasury Secretary nominee. What names are floating around for that?

COLLINS: This has been quite a battle and I've been talking to people about this. We thought we were going to get a name on Friday, potentially Jake. He's moved very quickly on other top positions, yet Treasury he has not moved on yet. And as of this morning he had still not made a decision.

Now we're waiting to see any moment we could get one from him, but essentially the picks that he had been looking at, Scott Bessent, who was certainly one of them, a name that was seen here down in Palm beach and doing those interviews. And also Howard Lutnick, who is the transition co-chair that, that I've interviewed that is leading the personnel side of this, but then also began pitching himself for the Treasury role.

The fighting there became so bad and so bitter essentially between the two of them that Trump started exploring other options. He was looking at names like Mark Rowan, the Wall Street billionaire, Kevin Warsh who is a former Federal Reserve governor is someone who has also struck his fancy in recent days. Jake, that's someone he actually almost considered naming as the Federal Reserve chair back when he picked Jay Powell, a decision that he later came to regret.

And jake, the reason that Trump is taking so long on this position I think is because he realizes how crucial the treasury position is going to be. How he has seen, how the stock market has done, he doesn't want anything he does with the treasury pick to affect that. And so that is still a lot of battling happening behind the scenes. But as someone described to me earlier with, you know, Scott Bessent and Howard Lutnick, it could end up being kind of a murder suicide where one tried to push the other out of contention, but then in the end, neither of them get that position, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins in West Palm Beach. Thanks so much. Kaitlan will have more tonight on her great show. It's called "The Source" with Kaitlan Collins. That's tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN.

Now let's move on to some of Trump's expected policies. Today, President-elect Trump confirmed he's preparing to declare a national emergency as part of this mass deportation plan to round up undocumented immigrants in the United States and kick them out of the country. Let's bring in CNN's Priscilla Alvarez. Priscilla, what are your sources telling you? PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a telling of just

how resource intensive any kind of mass deportation plan is. That's what this really is all about, according to the sources I'm talking to. They want to unlock those resources from the Defense Department to build detention space, to use facilities, and to use military assets.

What this is not, according to the people I'm speaking with, is using the U.S. military to arrest immigrants in the United States. This is a way for them to use those resources because any deportation plan also requires the space to put those that you do arrest.

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Now, for viewers, this might sound familiar because in the first term, Donald Trump did use a national emergency declaration to unlock Pentagon funds for his border wall. Now that faced numerous lawsuits. It may happen again, but they are certainly evaluating this and working on it in hopes to use it for this mass deportation campaign promise. Now, in addition to that, sources tell me they're looking at their regional capabilities, metropolitan areas, where can they expand detention facilities?

So that is also part of the planning underway. But in addition to all of this, Jake, it's not just about mass deportation. There's so much more underway, according to those I'm talking to you in terms of executive actions. That includes bringing back remain in Mexico. Remember, that's when migrants stayed in Mexico for their proceedings, revising asylum restrictions and essentially making more immigrants eligible for removal.

So when you take this all together, it is a return to the hardline immigration approach of the first term of the Trump administration. And they want to bring all of that back, but build it at scale.

TAPPER: Okay. Well, Priscilla, we've got a lot to cover in the next four years. Thanks so much, appreciate it. I want to bring in some folks who are watching the Trump transition closely. Scott Jennings, let's start with you. Farm industry officials and economists tell CNN that if Trump indeed goes forward with this mass deportation plan and rounds up the millions of undocumented immigrants who are working in our agricultural sector, they say high grocery prices are only going to get higher.

You know, obviously getting rid of people who have committed crimes beyond coming into the country illegally is one thing. But deporting people who are paying taxes, keeping the food and agriculture industries running, doing jobs that Native-born Americans don't want to do or are not willing to do, won't this actually hurt the Americans who are already so frustrated about high prices in grocery stores?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think a few things. Number one, Donald Trump was elected to do this. He ran on it, made it clear what he wanted to do, the American people voted for it. And so some people are watching this going, thank God, a politician whose planning to follow through on their promises. Number two, there's like 1.3 to 1.6 million illegal immigrants who've already received deportation orders from a court. I think you could start there.

Number three, there's another population of people who are violent. You could also go there before you ever get to people who are sort of working in industries and maybe during the course of all that time, maybe, just maybe, the Congress and the White House could figure something out about how to balance our illegal immigration crisis with the need for agriculture labor.

Final point, I don't remember anybody having these kinds of meltdowns when Barack Obama deported five million people. It is not uncommon for the executive branch to deport illegal immigrants. It happens in every administration. Obama deported more than most and I don't remember any of this kind of meltdown and the crisis has only gotten worse so I think Donald Trump's doing the right thing and most Republicans would agree it is a national emergency.

TAPPER: Who's having a meltdown?

JENNINGS: I mean, everybody seems to be on the same sheet of music today that this is going to mess up the agriculture industry and drive the grocery prices high. I've seen numerous pieces on it. Everybody seems to be out there talking about it. And so it strikes me, Jake, that Democrats, this is their new line of attack, that Donald Trump's got a plan to raise your grocery prices simply by following through on his campaign promises. And I just don't think it's true.

TAPPER: I mean, I've been covering this issue since the first Bush administration in 2001. I mean, this is always one of the issues with it, is that there are a lot of undocumented immigrants who work for the agricultural sector and there's always concerns about are those people actually going to be deported and if so, what happens to prices for, you know, regular folk just trying to make an honest living and buy some eggs.

Maria, Democratic Senator-elect Ruben Gallego of Arizona shared with me his thoughts about why he won and why specifically he did so well with Latino voters while Democrats as a whole failed so miserably. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RUBEN GALLEGO (D) ARIZON SENATOR-ELECT: We knew that something was bad with the Latino community when it comes to their opinion of the economy because I'm very much connected to it. I think a lot of politicians didn't want to hear what was actually happening out there and the reason we were successful because we heard about it and we moved early on it. My first campaign commercial was about the economy in Spanish and also on the border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I think there's probably a lot that Democrats in Washington can learn from Senator-elect Ruben Gallego. What do you think?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that's exactly right, Jake. The economy was the number one issue for Latino voters, but I wouldn't exaggerate to say that Democrats failed miserably. We still got the vast majority of Latino voters and still the majority of Latino men, but we did lose key percentages, not just in the battleground states but around the country and we absolutely have to look inward and figure out what happened.

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And I believe a big part of what happened is exactly what Senator Gallego is talking about. We needed to identify and prioritize the issue of the economy. And while we did, the we, the Harris campaign as well as many other groups did focus on an economic issue in an economic message for Latino voters, I think it happened too late.

And that is something that we're gonna have to contend with and we're gonna have to focus on that from here on out, frankly, to really lay out what the realities are and that frankly, it is the Democratic Party that has always been on the side of Latino voters and working class voters.

And this issue of mass deportations is a key example of that because while it is a campaign promise that Donald Trump made, a lot of the Latino voters that we have polled since the election didn't believe that he was going to embark on mass deportation. They voted for him on his economic promises.

So if he does embark on mass deportation, and Scott, it's not just Democrats talking about this, it's economists all around the country that say that mass deportation will absolutely drive up cost for consumers at the grocery store and will cost the economy trillions. And so that is going to be one of the things that the Democrats are going to be focusing on from here on out.

TAPPER: Scott, I do want to give you an opportunity to respond to Maria suggesting that the Latinos who voted for Donald Trump did so on his economic message, but did not think that he was being honest or I'm not sure how you would characterize it, that he would carry through with his promises on deportation.

JENNINGS: Well, I think number one, there was some polling during the election. I think CBS News conducted it, indicating that a majority of Hispanic-Americans wanted Donald Trump to do mass deportations. That they had come here, they had gone through the legal process, they had become citizens, and they didn't like the idea of huge scores of illegal immigrants coming across every day.

Look at some of the counties in Texas along the border that are majority Hispanic and the changeover from Biden to Trump. It is a crisis in the Hispanic community, the people who have come here legally, the people here are following all the laws and all the rules, they're living in some of the communities that are the hardest hit. And so I agree that they also believe in Donald Trump's economic message because most Hispanic-Americans are working class Americans and the working class did flow towards Donald Trump.

They're living in the communities that are the hardest hit by illegal immigration and the societal and governance impacts that it brings. And so I think they want him to do something about both. I don't think the two issues are mutually exclusive.

CARDONA: You know, Scott is right, Jake, in that Latinos, as well as all Americans, do want a solution to immigration. But here's where all of that polling, I think, is misguided. If you ask the question open- ended, should undocumented immigrants be deported, you're going to have a lot of people who are going to say yes.

But the fact of the matter is, is that when you offer Americans a choice between mass deportation and giving undocumented immigrants, especially those that have been long settled here for 10 years, 20 years, the ability to have and find a legal pathway so they can continue to work on our economy, the vast majority of Americans choose that balanced common sense solution and that's not what Donald Trump is offering.

TAPPER: I mean you say they, with all due respect, Maria, you say that the vast majority of Americans choose that common sense solution. They didn't two weeks ago.

CARDONA: Well it wasn't really being offered by Donald Trump and the --

TAPPER: I'm just saying, no, they vote --

CARDONA: --the Democrats didn't talk about it enough.

TAPPER: Okay. It was pretty stark (inaudible) candidates, one of them saying mass deportations, one of them saying this is a complicated issue that we need to like solve with the da-da-da, everything you just said.

CARDONA: Yeah, right, no, I agree.

TAPPER: And they went with the mass deportation guy.

CARDONA: Well, the messaging on our end was not clear enough and was not direct enough.

TAPPER: I don't know how I -- it's always a comms problem. Anyway, Scott and Maria, thanks to both of you. We'll have you back soon.

CARDONA: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: We're already looking ahead to election year 2025 and what could be opposition to Trump's agenda coming from well outside the Beltway.

Plus more than 11,000 troops from North Korea now helping Russia with its war on Ukraine. Is that the reason President Biden is letting Ukraine use these long-range missiles into Russia, or does this have something to do with the next incoming administration? We're gonna talk about the why next.

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TAPPER: In our "Politics Lead," Democratic governors are very publicly gearing up to lead opposition to a second Trump term. Some of them anyway. So guess what? It's already time to play that election music again. All right. That's right. Welcome to 2025. There are governor's races in the Commonwealth of Virginia and the state of New Jersey and they're going to get top billing.

Joining us now is New Jersey Democratic Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill. She just announced that she's going to enter what is becoming a crowded Democratic field in the Garden States race for governor. She's also a member of the House Armed Services and China Competition committees. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us.

So several Democratic governors, current ones, including term-limited New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, are threatening to fight back if their states are attacked in their characterization by the new Trump administration. California Governor Gavin Newsom, he's gone so far as to call a special session of his state legislature to quote "safeguard California values" unquote. I want to play something from your announcement video when you announced that you're running for governor earlier today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKIE SHERRILL (D-NJ): We can also be the state that sets a gold standard for protecting rights and freedoms, and we know they'll be under attack from Donald Trump's Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So it sounds like you would join that gubernatorial resistance. Tell us what you're concerned about.

SHERRILL: Well Jake, I think before we do anything we'd have to see what attacks might come from Washington. I mean, initially my focus is on delivering for people here in New Jersey. Because we all know what the problems are. People can't afford the cost of living. They feel like opportunity isn't available to them. And they are worried about their rights and freedoms. So what, you know, first and foremost New Jersey has done is enacted legislation in Trenton to protect women's reproductive rights.

[17:19:56]

Going forward though it's, you know, making sure that we have the money that's been guaranteed towards the Gateway Tunnel Project, that we're relentlessly fighting to get rid of the state and local tax deduction, which Trump implemented. Project 2025 says we shouldn't have any sort of deduction for that at all, and then Trump has said it was a mistake and he wouldn't re-implement the state and local tax deduction cap. So these are kind of the battles that we're gearing up to fight to really make sure families here in New Jersey see lower costs.

TAPPER: So we were just talking about immigration and the mass deportation plans that Donald Trump is concocting right now, coming up with right now. I'm from Philly, as you know. I've spent a lot of time in New Jersey. I know that the southern part of the Garden State is full of agriculture. I know that the Jersey Shore is full of tourism. I imagine you have a few undocumented immigrants doing jobs there that citizens of New Jersey are not willing to do.

What would you do if you're the governor of New Jersey and Donald Trump announces that he's coming into New Jersey, his ICE agents are coming in to round up all the people that support, let's say that there are three or four particular farms where they pick all of the whatever, what would you do?

SHERRILL: You know, Jake, this is why, quite frankly, Republicans were stalled in passing some of their immigration legislation, because we have so many seasonal workers that come in, because many of the rural areas, often represented by Republican members, said, no, you have to have some carve-outs here. And as we look at seasonal workers, I'll tell you, it was a huge impact on our economy in New Jersey.

During COVID, when there were shutdowns from seasonal workers coming in, I got calls from the Shore because that's a $1 billion economy with seasonal workers that come in and work in the summer. So our immigration system is broken. I don't think most people would argue that. We have to make sure that we have security at our borders.

As you mentioned, I sit on the Committee for Strategic Competition with the Chinese Communist Party. We know China has been pushing some of the precursor chemicals to fentanyl up through our southern border. We have to have security there. We have to have better processing. No one should wait in detention for months and months as they are waiting to see a judge.

And then we also have to have pathways to citizenship for people who are here, people who are DACA recipients or TPS or people who've been here and feed into our economy and pay their taxes. This is kind of a common sense reform that, you know, largely most people have been willing to support. We even saw them work on this in the Senate, and we thought we were going to have a bill there. So this is what we truly need to get to work on right away.

TAPPER: You served in the U.S. Navy. You're also on the House Armed Services Committee. What is your reaction to the Biden administration's decision to let Ukraine use these long-range missiles inside Russia? We're nearly three years into the war, about to change administrations. Is this the right time for such a big change? Russia is already saying that this will provoke them quite a bit.

SHERRILL: Look, you can't have Russia shooting munition after munition after munition into Ukraine, hitting things like hospitals and year after year and have Ukraine not be able to address that. They have to be able to attack those munition sites, many of which are inside Russia. And so if Putin doesn't want this to happen, if he doesn't want munitions coming from Ukraine into Russia, he shouldn't be firing missiles into Ukraine. There's an easy way to end this.

TAPPER: Before you go, any thoughts on the Trump nominees for some of these national security positions? Pete Hegseth at the Pentagon or Matt Gaetz, your former colleague as U.S. Attorney or Tulsi Gabbard, another former congresswoman as Director of National Intelligence? Any thoughts on any of them?

SHERRILL: Yeah, Jake, it's awful. I mean, when you read some of the comments, especially as I was looking at the comments by the man who wants to lead our Defense Department, it was just a complete misunderstanding of how we fight today, saying that women shouldn't be in combat, as if there's some sort of front line that women shouldn't be on. They should be away from the front line.

Our military is integrated. Our fighting force needs women today. So for example, if we are in the Middle East doing house to house clearing of weapons caches, we need to make sure we have that Lioness squad because you can't go gain intel inside those homes where women and children are if you don't have women that can do that kind of combat clearing.

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And so not only are we saying, am I saying that look you need women inside the force because that's how we fight today and they should be able to do many of the jobs as well as men who are doing them. But there are actually some jobs that men can't do in our fighting force today. So that's why we have such a diverse force. That's why women have really thrived, but it takes a long time to build this force.

I graduated in the first class of women where combat restrictions were lifted on ships and aircraft. And I can tell you it took about 30 years for you to see women from the Naval Academy entering into Congress like myself and Elaine Luria, or my classmate being the first woman to be a commanding officer of an aircraft carrier, the first woman who's the Chief of Naval Operations, the first woman who's the Superintendent of the academy.

And now I have to tell you as my daughter serves, to see somebody who wants to come on board and attack her ability to do that is personally upsetting to me, but also really bad for a ready military that has the ability to fight worldwide.

TAPPER: Democratic New Jersey Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, good to see you. Thanks so much. Congratulations on your gubernatorial campaign announcement.

SHERRILL: Thanks so much.

TAPPER: Coming up next, what Moscow's saying about the sudden death of a Russian ballet star who, quote, unquote, "accidentally" fell from a building.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: In our world lead, Russia says President Biden just threw, quote, oil on a fire after he decided to greenlight Ukraine's use of long range U.S. weapons known as ATACMS to strike within Russia. It's a line that until now the U.S. told Ukraine not to cross in its nearly three year defensive war with Russia.

Let's get right to CNN's Natasha Bertrand at the Pentagon and CNN's chief national security analyst Jim Sciutto. Jim, how big of an impact might these long range weapons without those previous restrictions have in this stage of the war?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: From a straight up military perspective? Limited. For one, the administration took a long time to get here. Two, it's got a timeline potentially of just a couple of months with a new administration coming in that might have a different view. And three, Russia had a long time to move its most critical assets out of the range of these ATACMs further into Russian territory.

That said, there is some value to this. For one, it gives other U.S. allies the ability to lift restrictions and that could last for longer on their own weapons being used. It also could be a bargaining chip in any potential peace agreement or armistice to end this war. And finally, Jake, far be it for me to imagine that an outgoing administration might try to tie the hands of an incoming administration.

But I think there might be some strategy to this that giving them this ability put some pressure on the Trump administration to say it would have to take an ability away from the Ukrainians, which it may, we don't know, but it may be loathe to do.

TAPPER: Natasha, where in Russia do U.S. officials expect Ukraine to use these long range missiles?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Ukrainians have obviously been asking for these long range systems for several months now at least to be able to use them against deep strike targets inside Russia.

But for now, what we're told the expectation is that the Ukrainians are primarily going to be using them in the Kursk region, which they have held large swaths of since August. They occupied that area of western Russia and the Russians now with the help of the North Koreans are trying to get it back.

And so U.S. officials believe that this could be an effective way for them to basically have an advantage over the Russians and the North Koreans there as the Russians have launched this major offensive.

But importantly, the U.S. also is really keen for Ukraine not to lose Kursk because that, as Jim mentioned, could be a really important bargaining chip for the Ukrainians if and when peace talks actually begin. The Russians want to take Kursk completely off the table because they do not want any Russian land, of course, to be part of any future negotiations.

And so that really is the key focus for the U.S. right now, making sure the Ukrainians are able to keep Kursk. And this is just one more tool in their arsenal that they can use to do that.

TAPPER: And Jim, Ukraine says that Russia suffered its highest number of weekly casualties of the entire war last week, more than 10,000. But we've also seen Russia launching massive missile attacks across Ukraine over the past few days. What are you hearing about Russia's military strength at this stage in the war?

SCIUTTO: Listen, Russia is getting slaughtered on the Eastern front. I mean, even before a record of about 10,000 a week, they've been hitting 1,200 casualties, killed and injured per day. That is remarkable. I mean, you remember, Jake, you know, several thousand casualties in the 80s in Afghanistan over the course of nearly a decade was enough for Russia to leave that war and, you know, perhaps help lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Russia has proven itself willing to suffer through enormous losses of its own forces here, but it's been gaining territory, as it has done that mile by mile, some 600 miles in the last several weeks. And that's significant because they're pushing forward. They just don't have the same standards. Right. I mean, Ukraine is suffering under the weight of these casualties. It's largely a democracy. They pay political price for that.

Russia does not pay. An authoritarian leader does not pay a price so far for those enormous human losses.

TAPPER: All right, Jim Sciutto, Natasha Bertrand, thanks to both of you. Also in Russia, a world renowned Russian ballet star died after he fell from the fifth floor of a building in Russia on Saturday, according to his St. Petersburg ballet company. Vladimir Shklyarov was quoted in a 2022 Facebook post by another former ballet dancer just days after Putin's invasion began.

Then Shklyarov reportedly said he was, quote, against the war in Ukraine and just wanted, quote, a peaceful sky. Russian state media claims that the death was an accident and that he was scheduled to undergo a spinal surgery in the coming days.

[17:35:05]

Notably, several Putin critics have also died after falls from windows or buildings. Shklyarov leaves behind a wife and two children.

Coming up, a new investigation exposing the dark world of spyware, your cell phone and the data on it that could be used against you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our Buried lead. Now, buried lead is what we call stories we think deserve much more attention than they're getting. It's the one object most of us probably would not want to leave home without our smartphones. But a new documentary reveals how your phone could actually be spying on you. Not just tracking your every move, but handing over your access to all your personal photos and your text and your emails, even turning on your phone's microphone and camera recording you without you even knowing it.

It's a terrifying scenario, and it's no longer the stuff of sci-fi thrillers. You can learn about it in the new HBO documentary Surveilled, which comes to HBO on Wednesday. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONAN FARROW, PRODUCER, "SURVEILLED": So you're hacking these phones. What kinds of reactions did you get?

[17:40:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's jaw-dropping. It's very impressive the first time that you see.

FARROW: What was the pitch that you were offering these governments?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Usually we had like one iPhone, one Android device. We used to demonstrate how we can exfiltrate the data from those devices. Actively take snapshots of the screen or pictures from the camera, actively record through the microphones.

FARROW: What should the average citizen in any country in the world know about this company and this technology?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very powerful. It's very interesting.

FARROW: Should people be concerned?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, yeah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Here now, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and producer of HBO's documentary "Surveilled," which I should note like CNN is owned by Warner Brothers Discovery. Here with us, Ronan Farrow. Ronan, good to see you. Congratulations on the new docs.

As spyware companies say that their programs can help authorities prevent terrorism, fight criminals. But critics also warn that spyware can violate civil liberties. And you have first-hand experience because you've been a target of spyware because of your reporting on Harvey Weinstein. Explain all of this.

FARROW: I have been targeted by both old school surveillance and also tech driven surveillance or have had my phone location tracked, for instance. And it opened up a world to me of just how commonplace this is. And what we've seen in recent years, Jake, is the world already knows that under repressive regimes, this happens all the time. We saw the prominent example of Jamal Khashoggi, the Washington Post journalist who was murdered. And there was an allegation that on the phones of people around him, this very powerful spyware, Pegasus, was found.

Pegasus can turn your phone into a listening device. It can, without you ever knowing, crack into your photos your most personal data. And we've seen a string of those examples around the world. But now we've seen it happen in Western democracies over and over again.

Part of this film is set in Spain where we document one of the largest clusters of political dissidents, opposition politicians, activists, civil society members, all being hacked. And we've seen similar scandals in Poland, in Greece.

So part of the message of this film is it could happen here. And that we've seen the beginnings of that under the first Trump administration there was the purchase of this same technology, Pegasus, the FBI said only to test, but the New York Times later reported they came very close to operationalizing it.

And in recent months, Jake, we've seen ICE, for instance, purchase a similar powerful Israeli spyware technology from a company called Paragon.

So you now have Donald Trump coming in with campaign promises including mass deportation and technology that could really transform the way that those promises are executed in a way that civil liberties experts and privacy law experts tell me everyone should be afraid of, whether you're in a vulnerable category, like a journalist or an activist or someone awaiting an immigration hearing or not.

Because once you start using this without guardrails, what we've seen in all of these cases around the world is democracy falls away, and suddenly people who don't expect to be on lists are being targeted, and it's a basis for them being intimidated.

TAPPER: So there is a fascinating scene in your documentary where a now former member of the European Parliament from Spain who was in favor of independence for Catalonia, has his phone tested to see if it had been infected with spyware, and it was determined it had been at least twice.

What is it like to find out that there has been surveillance going on, electronic surveillance going on for you, since you went through that, too? And what can I do? What can our viewers do to try to make sure that this doesn't happen to them, other than not clicking on unfamiliar emails and texts?

FARROW: Well, that little vignette is a great example of the stakes because that's a politician who is peacefully pushing for a specific agenda. In this case, there's an autonomous region in Spain, semi- autonomous Catalonia, that you mentioned, and there's a lot of activists there and there's politicians representing the people there. We think it should be independent.

You can agree with that or not, but what you saw is that his discussions of that policy effort in private and in the European Parliament were potentially all being disgorged to his political enemies, who at the same time were cracking down. The regime in Madrid was behind a bunch of violent arrests and crackdowns in that region.

So, you see a shrinking space for just forms of free expression. And that means, you know, less freedom of press, less freedom of political opposition. Everyone should be worried about that. And to the other part of your question, on a personal level, it's

devastating. We also have the stories in this film of just innocent bystanders, completely apolitical family members of people who were targeted who also got infected.

We have another scene where, you know, the sibling of an activist, it gets tested and they find in real time she's been infected. We have, you know, doctors whose patient's information is compromised, and you don't know where that information is going or how it's going to be held over you, used against you, used as a basis for some illicit arrest.

[17:45:03]

Now, these are things we don't expect in a democracy, but it is happening in democracies and we have the tools here in this government to do it increasingly. So what the Trump administration does on this is going to be pivotal.

TAPPER: Well should Congress do? What should journalists do? What should the public do?

FARROW: Couple of simple things. I mean, one is if you care about this issue and you see these stories and you're moved by it and you see how invasive this is and how it shrinks the space for you to operate freely in our society, you should write to your representative and say, hey, I care about regulation and legislation that is going to prevent this from being a free for all like we've seen in some of these other Western democracies.

Two, on a personal basis, shut off your phone every day, reboot it. That doesn't foil every form of spyware, but it foils a lot of them. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, news you can use. Ronan Farrow, thank you so much. The documentary is "Surveilled." It debuts this Wednesday night at 9:00 Eastern on HBO and streaming on Max. Always good to have you. Ronan, thank you so much.

Some breaking news moments ago in the New York subway chokehold trial. We're going to be back with that story, next.

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TAPPER: And we're back with breaking news in our law and justice lead in Manhattan. The prosecution has just rested its case against Daniel Penny. Daniel Penny is the 26-year-old Marine Corps veteran who is facing manslaughter charges for the fatal chokehold on a New York subway that killed Jordan Neely in May of last year. This case has sparked nationwide conversations on vigilante justice and mental health and homelessness. CNN's Gloria Pazmino is outside the New York courthouse. And Gloria, the prosecution is done. What's the biggest obstacle now for the defense team? GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, it's going to

be the testimony of the city medical examiner, which wrapped up today after near six hours of questioning. She testified over and over since Friday that the reason why Jordan Neely died was because of the chokehold that he was placed in by Daniel Penny.

Now, why is this so significant? Because the defense had said in its opening statements that they would prove to the jury that it wasn't the chokehold that killed Jordan Neely, but rather all these other complicating factors, including the fact that Neely suffered from sickle cell disease and that he had sickling event during the struggle between him and Penny.

But over and over today, during cross examination by the defense and redirection by the prosecution, Dr. Cynthia Harris said that the reason why Jordan Neely likely had that sickling crisis was because he had been placed in the chokehold in the first place. So this is a critical piece of the defense that has now fallen apart after this medical examiner's testimony.

Now, over the last three weeks or so, we've heard from witnesses, including some who testified that they were afraid and that they feared for their lives when they saw Jordan Neely get on the train and start screaming about not caring if he would go to prison that night. And we've heard from some witnesses who said that they were relieved that Daniel Penny took action.

Now, remember, this case is about whether or not Daniel Penny simply went too far. That's what the prosecution is trying to say, that he had good intentions, but that by placing him in that chokehold and holding him for six minutes, he went too far.

Now, they rested their case this afternoon, and now the defense is up to present their case. And they have started by calling two character witnesses, including Daniel Penny's older sister and a close childhood friend. Both of them testified about their close relationships with Daniel Penney, talked about his desire to serve in the Marines and his reputation as an honest and calm person. Jake.

TAPPER: Gloria, any response from either the Penney family or the Neely family?

PAZMINO: Well, Jordan Neely's family has been in the courtroom nearly every day have they been watching these deliberations. And today we heard from Jordan Neely's uncle. He said that he has confidence in the prosecution that they're going to be able to get justice and a conviction out of this case. And he said today that he felt the defense was desperate by putting on family members and close childhood friends of Mr. Penny just to try and show that he was a compassionate person when the character of Mr. Penny is not really what's in question here is whether or not he made that maneuver, went too far, and ultimately ended up killing Jordan Neely on that subway.

TAPPER: All right. Thank you so much. Gloria Pazmino in New York, what that bankruptcy filing today from Spirit Airlines might mean for the holiday travel that essentially kicks off in a few days. Might you need to rebook?

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[17:58:50]

TAPPER: Time for our last leads now. Spirit Airlines has filed for bankruptcy protection. Spirit's known for its ultra-low base fares, but that's caught up with them in the form of losses and debt and competition. If you're in line to fly Spirit, you should stay there. Spirit says, quote, guests can continue to book and fly without interruption. Can use all tickets, credits and loyalty points.

Also in our money lead shrinkflation or product redesign. Either way, orange juice fans are seething after Tropicana unveiled a more traditional looking plastic bottle which has also coincidentally cut the amount of OJ inside the bottle from 52 ounces to 46 ounces.

Since the new bottle's release, Tropicana's sales have dropped 19 percent. That's the first update since its clear bottle in 2011 to replace paper cartons.

I want to note special fundraiser happening now in our pop culture lead the 8th annual Homes for Our Troops Celebrity auction. You can bid on amazing items and experiences. The money goes to raise -- to specifically raise build homes for specially adapted homes, mortgage free homes for wounded veterans. This is through the top rated charity Homes for Our Troops.

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Some of the items up for auction this year include George Clooney's fancy watch and Jennifer Aniston's fancy purse and --