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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Manhunt Underway For CEO's Killer In New York City; Hegseth Blasts Critics As Trump Considers Other Options; Supreme Court Hears Arguments In Biggest Case Of Term; CNN Returns To Bombed Out Area Of South Lebanon. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired December 04, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:18]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I have Alanis Morissette. Beyonce is in number two. There's some stuff I'm embarrassed about, like Skibidi Toilet is one of my top ten songs, not my choice. I have children.
THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts now.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
And we have two major breaking stories this hour.
First, Pete Hegseth making his last stand right now on Capitol Hill. The nominee to be secretary of defense is hoping to shore up the support of Republican lawmakers so he can run the Pentagon as President-elect Donald Trump's pick.
But first, the active manhunt in New York City. Police searching for the gunman who shot and killed the CEO of UnitedHealthcare this morning outside a hotel in midtown Manhattan. The NYPD calling it a, quote, brazen, targeted attack some New Yorkers, terrified as video emerges of the shooting which shows what looks to be a professional hitman using a silencer on his weapon.
CNN's Brynn Gingras has been with investigators as they collect evidence and is laying out what we know so far about this gruesome murder. And we want to warn our viewers parts of this story are clearly disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Stunning new video obtained by CNN showing the moments a gunman carries out a brazen attack in the heart of New York City.
The suspect waiting for Brian Thompson, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, and then firing several shots, killing him.
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I want to be clear, at this time, every indication is that this was a premeditated, pre- planned targeted attack.
Police say that gunman camped out for about five minutes before Thompson arrived. You can see from these images he's wearing a mask, hooded sweatshirt and backpack. Sources say a silencer was attached to his handgun. Police say he watched as people walked by and then fired at Thompson from behind, striking him before the gun jams.
JOSEPH KENNY, NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: It appears that the gun malfunctions as he clears the jam and begins to fire again.
GINGRAS: He fires another shot, hitting Thompson again. Then the suspect fled, likely following this route, according to police, down a back alley of a midtown theater before jumping on a bicycle. Police losing his track after he entered Central Park.
KENNY: We're still tracking video. There are GPS on those bikes. We'll be working with the company.
GINGRAS: Investigators also recovering a cell phone, three shell casings at the scene and are asking the public for help in identifying the gunman.
Fifty-year-old Thompson was the CEO of the health insurance unit within the Minnesota based UnitedHealth group. He arrived in New York City on Monday for an investors' conference. As of now, police don't believe he and the gunman crossed paths until this morning.
Thompson was a husband and father of two boys. His wife Paulette, releasing a statement: Brian was an incredibly loving generous, talented man who truly lived life to the fullest and touched so many lives.
ANDREW WITTY, CEO, UNITEDHEALTH GROUP: There are no words to describe how so many of us are feeling right now. Brian was a truly extraordinary person who touched the lives of countless people throughout our organization and far beyond.
GINGRAS: The brazen murder happening at the start of morning rush hour in an area of New York City crawling with tourists for the holiday season.
MICHELLE WYCKOFF, STAYING AT THE HILTON: So we just heard sirens going off. I thought, oh gosh, what's going on? I did not think it was actually right here.
ANDY KENNY, STAYING AT THE HILTON: You know, we really don't know what it was about but were shocked that somebody would be killed in the in broad daylight in New York. That's really quite shocking.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GINGRAS: And, Jake, I want to bring up the picture that the NYPD has released on its X account. This showing a more clear picture of the suspect that they continue to look for. Of course, as you heard, they are hoping the public will be able to identify this person.
But I'm also learning from a source tonight that that picture was taken at a nearby establishment from this area that I am in right now, and that picture was taken. Or rather, it was taken before the actual shooting occurred. So you know that police are continuing to take these images, try to piece together a timeline of this suspect's movements, including where he might have disappeared to after entering Central Park.
Of course, these are all questions that are outstanding, including a motive. Why did this person target Thompson? All questions that are outstanding and hopefully police are getting answers to as they continue this massive manhunt in New York City -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Brynn Gingras, thanks so much.
Joining us now, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe.
Andrew, the suspected gunman has now been on the run since just after 6:45 a.m. this morning. He's believed to have used a silencer.
What is the information we have? What does it tell you about the sophistication of this attack?
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, Jake, the details and nuances of this attack are extraordinary. They do betray an astounding level of preplanning, of organization and I should also say, cool headedness and all of those things together would point towards a very competent assassin and potentially even someone who does this for hire.
We know first by his use of the weapon, he's carrying a nine millimeter semiautomatic pistol. It appears to be equipped with some sort of silencer or suppression device. These are not things that you see on everyday ordinary homicides, drive-by shootings, things like that. This is a -- this is a pretty advanced piece of equipment. He uses it with great precision.
His timing is impeccable. He waits behind the SUV until the target walks past. He steps out behind the target so as not to be seen. He shoots once and then follows it up with two additional shots to make sure he's got a -- you know, a complete kill.
And, of course, he's able to recycle the weapon to clear an ammunition jam in the middle of the attack. That shows a high degree of training on firearms training, that in which you practice over and over, how to clear a jam from a gun in the middle of a firefight. He's clearly adept at those skills.
And I think the timing and the way he conducts himself also really lend to this impression that this is someone who is very serious and spent a lot of time thinking this through.
TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell, also a former FBI agent.
Josh, talk to us about the bike he was riding. What, if anything, can investigators track from that?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the city of New York, this is a metropolitan area that is obviously blanketed with surveillance footage.
And so, if you have someone who I totally agree with, Andy, the level of sophistication here would possibly include here the mode of transportation inside the city of New York.
There are also license plate scanners and readers that are throughout the city, which law enforcement can use if they're looking for a particular vehicle and so here what we see is the individual, not using a vehicle, but using a bicycle which obviously provides a more agile means of transportation to move in and around that area and we know he's still at large here.
So this is not only a sophisticated hit, but this is someone who likely would have been looking into how he actually got to that location in order to cover his tracks. And then some kind of plan on how to get away.
And I agree totally with Andy on that weapon. I mean, you look at that video here. Of course, we're not showing that in full because of the graphic nature of it, but interestingly, with that suppressor on the weapon, you see him actually racking the slide between each individual shot. That sometimes happens you know, when you're using a suppressor.
But then as Andy mentioned, he's able to clear that malfunction and then quickly get that weapon back up on target and continue to fire at the suspect. So, a lot of questions at this hour about why he did this. Authorities obviously trying to figure that out.
And then finally ill point out, you know, I've been talking to folks in the executive protection industry as well, including Andy and his former colleagues in the FBI. And they have questions as law enforcement does, as well, about what kind of security precautions this individual had were there any potential threats around him?
You know, one thing that's interesting is on this panel in Andy McCabe, you have someone who, as the former FBI director and deputy director had a robust professional protection detail. Sometime protectees don't like that because, you know, you don't want people following you everywhere you go. But we continue to hear from people in that industry that it's so important when you have these high profile people who could be targets.
TAPPER: Andrew, what are the biggest priorities right now in identifying and locating this gunman?
MCCABE: Well, number one, and I think you've heard this in the comments from the NYPD folks that have talked on camera is tracking the video. New York City is awash in video collection. Much of it is accessible to the New York City Police Department, even those privately owned cameras on businesses and residences, they can get that coverage pretty easily.
And they are going to try to reconstruct every one of this guys footsteps leading up to the attack. And then of course, after the attack, now he clearly has the jump on them in terms of timing, as Josh mentioned, I think the selection of the E-bike to evade the scene was really quite brilliant. It is trackable by GPS, but it's not as immediately identifiable as something like a vehicle is so he's got the jump on them.
You can see that he's wearing a large backpack. That's a peak designs backpack. It's a kind of specialty item among outdoors enthusiasts and photographers, and people travel with a lot of gear. He's got a coat on that completely obscures him, except his eyes and nose.
So he's really thought this out. He's likely changed his of his clothing, maybe taken out another set of clothing from that backpack as soon as he had an opportunity to after he left the scene. So the guy they're looking for probably doesn't look like this right now, and he is likely been moved considerably outside the area.
But we'll see. The PD is definitely all over this manhunt.
TAPPER: And, Josh, it's getting dark in New York. That presumably will complicate the manhunt.
CAMPBELL: You know, it could. I mean law enforcement in various instances have, you know, sophisticated tools that they can use in order to track people, you know, particularly if you're looking in Central Park when at night you'll have fewer people there. There are things like thermal detection that they can use to see if someone is perhaps secreted themselves in a particular area.
We haven't heard yet from law enforcement whether they've done a fulsome search of that area. Obviously, central park is a gigantic area, which would require a lot of resources.
But yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, if he is able to get away from that metropolitan area and out into the suburbs and then beyond, that can make it more difficult because authorities, you know cant put a cordon around everything and so, you know, it's going to be all hands on deck for the NYPD throughout the night. And indeed, until they actually are comfortable that they've safely had this person in custody.
Josh Campbell, Andy McCabe, thanks to both of you.
Next to Capitol Hill where critical meetings are happening. Right now, Pete Hegseth goes one on one with the Republican senators he needs to be confirmed as secretary of defense. I'm going to talk to a Republican senator about the process.
Plus the tone in Trump world on this entire ordeal and what sources are telling CNN.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:15:04]
TAPPER: And now to breaking news in our politics lead. President-elect Trump's pick for secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, is on Capitol Hill right now. A senior Trump transition team source tells me that today's meetings that he's having with senators are, quote, absolutely critical. The source suggested that Hegseth -- Hegseth has not been forthcoming with President-elect Trump or Vice President-elect J.D. Vance, or the Trump transition team about all these allegations of past behavior, including a 2017 allegation that he sexually assaulted a woman, which he denies, and separate whistleblower complaints of inappropriate behavior at work which he also has repeatedly denied.
Here's what Hegseth said about his support on Capitol Hill in an interview earlier today with Megyn Kelly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP PICK FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY: My meetings with them have been fantastic. No one has looked me in the eye and say, I have concerns and I can't vote for you. In fact, most have said, let's take a picture and I'm behind you all the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Let's get right to CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.
Manu, is that where Republican senators are telling you that most of them just want a picture there behind him, and none of them have told him face to face, that they have concerns?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are a number of Republican senators who simply will not say how they will vote on this nomination. They are uncertain about whether they can back Pete Hegseth to be the secretary of defense. Remember, just four Republican senators defections could be enough to scuttle this nomination, given that all Democrats are expected to vote no.
Now he just wrapped up a critical meeting with Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa. Ernst is someone who has a sexual assault survivor, someone who has fought to change the practices of how sexual assault claims are dealt with in the military. Of course, he has been alleged to have committed sexual assault. He has denied that allegation.
But I tried to ask Ernst after their 45-minute meeting, whether she's ready to back Hegseth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Senator, will you support Mr. Hegseth's nomination?
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): It was a frank and thorough conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And she continued to repeat that line, Jake, for the course of several minutes, I've asked her several times about the meeting, any details and the like. Continuing to say it was a frank and thorough conversation.
Now, in talking to other senators, too, there is still an open question about whether Donald Trump is fully behind Hegseth. Hegseth did tell reporters today that he has the confidence of Donald Trump and Trump has indicated to him privately as early as today that he backs him. But some Republican senators still are uncertain if Trump will go another direction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): It's not 100 percent clear to me who he wants the secretary of defense right now. He'll answer all of those and many, many more under oath if he wants to, and if the president wants to, wants him to. But I don't -- I don't know what the case is at this point.
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): One of the things I'd love to hear is that he's committed to not drinking. I think if he would be familiar with the problems of alcoholism and the dumb things we do when we drink too much, it'd be really nice if he would set that one aside for -- for good, if not, at least for through a through a term as secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And that last comment coming from Republican Senator Kevin Cramer, who indicated to me that he is likely to support that nomination to be secretary of defense, but in reference to those allegations of Hegseth being intoxicated on the job in his previous service, leading a veterans' organization, something that he has denied having a drinking problem at all.
But he did tell Senator Roger Wicker, who is the incoming Republican chairman of the Senate armed services committee, Jake, that if he is confirmed, he will commit to not drinking if he is confirmed, ultimately to that post, something that did alleviate at least some concerns for some senators, Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.
Joining us now, Republican Senator Eric Schmitt of Missouri.
So, Senator, thanks for joining us. You met with Pete Hegseth yesterday. You said it was great to sit down with him. You said you look forward to working with him.
Did you ask him about any of these allegations?
SEN. ERIC SCHMITT (R-MO): I did, we had a wide ranging conversation. I asked him directly about it. Of course, he denied wrongdoing as he has before, and I think it's important to note that no charges were ever filed, and a lot of the leaks that are happening, which are very popular in Washington, are anonymous.
And so, you've had a lot of people come out publicly supporting him, Pete Hegseth, and I will tell you, most of the conversation that I had is what you should have with a nominee, which is -- what is the direction you want to see the department of defense go in.
We got a DEI problem. He's vowed to eliminate that. I support that. We need to focus on China and we have a procurement problem. We're falling behind as it relates to innovation at the Pentagon.
So that was a majority of our conversation. But I did ask him directly and every senator is going to have their own criteria and their own questions that they ask. And that's what this confirmation process is all about.
TAPPER: So you heard a fellow Republican Senator Kevin Cramer of North Dakota say that he has concerns about the allegations of drinking. We should note Senator Cramer tragically lost his son to alcoholism in 2018.
Hegseth did address this earlier today with Megyn Kelly on her podcast. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: You know, there's an interesting one there. First of all, I've never had a drinking problem. I don't -- I'm never -- no one's ever approached me and said, oh, you -- you should really look at getting help for a drink. Never.
I've never sought counseling, never sought help. I respect and appreciate people who -- who do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: We also heard from Senator Wicker that Hegseth said in their meeting that if he's confirmed to the position, he will not drink.
Do you have any concerns about these issues? And if there isn't a problem, why need he can -- swear to sobriety?
SCHMITT: Well, you know, he's made those affirmative comments and said something similar to me in our meeting. I think he's trying to address these issues head on as they've been swirling around. And I think you started to see his mom was interviewed. I've not seen the entirety of that interview. I think, speaking up for his character.
But again, he's been nominated. President Trump ran on a reform agenda and Pete Hegseth I do think he brings a reform minded agenda to the Pentagon. We're in desperate need of that. This is not a partisan issue. We're in a real competition with China.
We will be judged on who wins that in this next -- in the century that we're in right now. And I think, again, there's a lot of reform that we need in the Pentagon. That's why President Trump selected him I think he's going to get wide deference on those -- on those picks. You know, including Pete Hegseth.
But look, this is what this process is all about. We're here for another couple of weeks. Then we come back. And these confirmation -- confirmation hearings will begin in earnest in public view. That's all part of the process.
And I think he's again addressing it head on in meeting with senators one on one, which is what he should do. TAPPER: If a track record of numerous infidelities and alleged sexual misconduct and alleged problems with alcohol that he's either denied or said doesn't represent him anymore. This is who he is. Would you hire somebody that that had these descriptions about who he was to -- to run your office given what we know is a fact and the allegations I mean, do you not really have any concerns?
SCHMITT: Well, you kind of mix two words there together. There Jake, which is the fact of the allegations. Let's look at these in two different buckets. The first is the 2017 incident that you referenced. The prosecutor, the female prosecutor decided not to move forward with charges.
I'd be interested to see as a former prosecutor myself, attorney general of Missouri, what other surrounding documents and memoranda might exist that related to that decision not to charge. And then secondly, now you have again, a bunch of anonymous, folks coming forward -- not even coming forward, who are in the shadows claiming something.
And I just don't think that's a -- that's a reason why you would, you know, dismiss somebody from a very important role like this. And so --
TAPPER: Well, I said the facts and the allegations, because the facts of the infidelities of how he has run his personal life are just facts and, frankly, as a married man and a father, absolutely disgraceful.
But beyond that, there are these allegations he paid hush money to his accuser in California. I've never paid hush money to anybody.
SCHMITT: Well, he settled a lawsuit that again the underlying charges were deemed by a prosecutor as baseless and those are the facts.
But again, I think this is a -- again, people are entitled to ask these questions. He's entitled to give an answer and he's answering those questions. And the Senate's going to come together and vote on his -- his nomination to lead an agency that has failed another audit that has recruitment problems because it's dividing the room by race with this divisive, discriminatory DEI agenda that they have. It's been politicized like every other agency under this Biden administration.
So, President Trump ran on a reform agenda that includes our Department of Defense. And I think Pete Hegseth fits that mold.
TAPPER: Republican Senator Eric Schmitt of Missouri -- always good to see you, sir. Thank you so much for coming by.
SCHMITT: Sure thing, Jake.
Coming up, we're going to talk to Pete Hegseth's attorney in his first TV interview. That's just in a few minutes.
But first, what Senate Democrats are saying about a potential backup plan if Trump needs to replace Hegseth with someone else.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:27:46]
TAPPER: Back in our politics lead.
There are reports that if Pete Hegseth doesn't make it to a confirmation vote for secretary of defense, Republican Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has been floated as a backup choice. Listen to what Democratic senators have had to say about that possibility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): He's, you know, served in the military. So I think he has what you would look at on paper as the requisite kind of experience you would want in a secretary of defense.
SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): I'm considering voting yes on DeSantis if he's finally admits that he has lifts in his boots. I'm sure he does. You know, maybe three inches, four inches at least.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Yeah, Fetterman, always with the little -- always with a little joke. Let's go right to our panel.
Matt Gorman, let me start with you. Do you think he's going to make it to confirmation? Do you think he's going to be confirmed? Pete Hegseth.
MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I think if he can make it through these 48 hours without any other allegations, I think that's a very big, important step. We have a lot of time. We have six weeks until Trump is --
TAPPER: There was just another one dropped by "NPR". "NPR's" David Folkenflik has one. Yeah.
GORMAN: I mean, look, I think that that is the key. And I think also seeing Joni Ernst there, she's going to be the crucial one. And she isn't normally one of those 4 or 5 handful of Republican senators who tend to be swing votes on these things.
I will say this, though there tends to be strength in numbers. They put together a couple nominees that might have, you know, a Republican or two vote against with Kash Patel RFK, Tulsi Gabbard and others by having these different folks, it does divide the media scrutiny. But in the last 72 hours, you've seen it all kind of go towards Hegseth.
And then that's when it tends to move the needle. If someone else moves into that kind of position where they getting -- they're getting that same sort of scrutiny, that obviously helps Hegseth get some votes. A little bit of attention off him.
TAPPER: What do you make of it all including the DeSantis factor? ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, VP HARRIS: Well, I
mean, you know, this might shock you, Jake, but I actually have Republican friends on the Hill.
TAPPER: And what does not shock me?
(LAUGHTER)
ETIENNE: I know, because I look like the bipartisan type, right?
TAPPER: It does not shock.
ETIENNE: Nevertheless, I'm a smart girl right? Nevertheless, what I'm hearing from my Republican friends on the Senate side is that it's not this issue of his attitude toward women or how he's treated women. That's going to be an illuminating factor.
It is this whether or not he has an alcohol problem, that's what senators are looking at. And I also heard from -- from my friends on the Republican side that they're like -- they're in the president's ear whispering especially now that DeSantis has been put forward, that get rid of Hegseth.
[16:30:08]
You don't need -- stop the bleeding, get rid of Hegseth and go ahead and move forward with DeSantis. He's much more palatable for not just -- for not just Republicans, but also for Democrats. But the reason why they're saying that is because you're going to have problems with Tulsi Gabbard. You've got a lot of others that are going to cause you a lot of heartburn. Get rid of Hegseth now and just go with DeSantis is what I'm hearing.
TAPPER: So I want to play some sound here is the inevitable sound. We don't have the sound, but in 2015 and 2016, Hegseth would go after Donald Trump. It's kind of a rite of passage. You come out in public life as a Republican Trump supporter who Trump likes, and you run clips of him in 2015, 2016, to him criticizing.
It doesn't seem to bother Trump. You don't think it's an issue?
GORMAN: Not at all. I mean, look who's elected. The vice president was J.D. Vance, obviously very critical of him. You'd be loath to find someone who hasn't criticized Trump in the Republican Party at some point in the ten years since he became nominee --
ETIENNE: Well, Hegseth honestly.
GORMAN: What he does actually love is he loves converts. He does love converts. And so that there -- there might be issues that could cause his nomination to go off the rails. This isn't close to one of them.
TAPPER: Do you think that the central premise of what you heard from Senator Schmitt, forget the DEI part of it, but the reform part of it, the fact that the Pentagon has failed so many audits, the fact that you see Bernie Sanders and Elon Musk joining and saying, you know, the Pentagon really does need a disrupter.
Whether or not it's Hegseth, do you agree with that premise?
ETIENNE: I mean, sure, I definitely think that each one of these agencies I've worked at federal agencies before, I mean, each one of them need some sort of eye toward making them more efficient and some leadership to do that.
But the question is, is it? I doubt that it's Hegseth. I mean, the question for the Republicans, is it Hegseth?
But here's the thing, I think, Jake, that's missing right now is where is the opposition right now? Where are Democrats? Where are these good government groups? Where are these veterans groups sort of, you know, beating the drum about why, you know, Hegseth is not the right person?
You know, my party is going to have to figure this out. I know we're licking our wounds. I know we're feeling a little disaffected right now, but we're going to have to figure out how to walk and chew gum at the same time. We're only down five seats on the House side.
We've got to get those 70-plus million people that voted for Kamala Harris back engaged in the fight right now. And our attitude and our posture right now with these nominees -- I mean, it's catnip for us, and we're doing nothing about it. I see no sort of strong opposition from the Democratic Party.
That's a problem. We're going to have to figure that one out.
TAPPER: She's right. I mean, I just occurred to me, yeah, whatever happened to the Democrats?
GORMAN: I mean, go back to 2017, late 2016, this time, you had resistance -- was really in full force. I mean, yeah, and so and I mean --
TAPPER: Where all those pink hats go?
GORMAN: The pink hats go. I mean, like the resistance then was angry. Now it's I think very depressed and demoralized. I mean, even the fact that, like they would be willing to let Ron DeSantis go through and sail through in defense,
I mean, that would be surprising imagine that, you know, six -- saying that six months ago. That's surprising to me if Democrats would be willing to vote for him.
TAPPER: Well, I mean, I think it's the -- it's like Marco Rubio. I mean, they're happy -- Democrats are happy that it's somebody who's in the realm of the normal.
GORMAN: And maybe that's -- look, maybe it's a negotiating play in there where somebody out there at first and then yeah, yeah.
TAPPER: All right.
Thanks to our panel.
Hegseth's attorney is just minutes away from talking to us here on THE LEAD.
Plus, the major case today before the U.S. Supreme Court involving transgender health for kids. Yesterday, CNN brought you some of the stories of the families impacted. Next, the defendant in this case is going to be here on the lead to discuss.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:37:40]
TAPPER: Time for our law and justice lead.
The U.S. Supreme Court appears ready to allow Tennessee's ban on transgender health care for children after hearing today's oral arguments in the highly anticipated case U.S. versus Skrmetti. Tennessee's law bans puberty blockers and hormone therapy for transgender minors and imposes civil penalties against physicians who violate the law.
CNN's Paula Reid breaks down the conservative justices' skepticism on the challenge to Tennessee's law.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH PRELOGAR, SOLICITOR GENERAL: If you change the individual sex, it changes the result, and a law like that can't stand on bare rationality.
PAUL REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar arguing Tennessee's ban on medical care for transgender minors amounts to sex discrimination, which is unconstitutional under the equal protection clause.
CROWD: Fight back!
REID: But Tennessee argued their law protects minors from irreparable harm.
J. MATTHEW RICE, TENNESSEE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE: It's application turns entirely on medical purpose, not a patient's sex. That is not sex discrimination. The Equal Protection Clause does not require the states to blind themselves to medical reality.
REID: Conservative justices like Samuel Alito focused in on how other countries, such as the United Kingdom and Sweden, have recently shifted policies to limit access to treatments for transgender youth.
JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: I wonder if you would like to stand by the statement that you made in your petition, or if you think it would now be appropriate to modify that and withdraw the statement that there is overwhelming evidence establishing that these treatments have benefits that greatly outweigh the risks and the dangers.
PRELOGAR: If the court wants to go ahead and look at what's happening in Europe, the UK has not categorically banned this care. Sweden, Finland and Norway, the other jurisdictions that my friends point to have not banned this care. And I think that's because of the recognition that this care can provide critical, sometimes lifesaving benefits for individuals with severe gender dysphoria.
REID: But liberal Justice Sonia Sotomayor highlighted the potential harm of withholding treatment.
JUSTICE SONIA SOTOMAYOR, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: Some children suffer incredibly with gender dysphoria, don't they?
PRELOGAR: Yes, it's a very serious medical condition.
SOTOMAYOR: I think, some attempt suicide?
PRELOGAR: Yes, the rates of suicide are striking and it's a vulnerable population.
[16:40:01]
REID: And both sides closely watching Chief Justice John Roberts, a potential swing vote, as he suggested the court should leave questions of medical nuance to the states.
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Doesn't that make a stronger case for us to leave those determinations to the legislative bodies, rather than try to determine them for ourselves?
REID: That line of questioning concerning Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson.
JUSTICE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: I'm worried that were undermining the foundations of some of our bedrock equal protection cases.
REID: ACLU attorney Chase Strangio sharing those concerns as he made history as the first known openly transgender person to argue before the Supreme Court.
CHASE STRANGIO, ACLU ATTORNEY: Tennessee claims this sex based line drawing is justified to protect children, but SB1 has taken away the only treatment that relieved years of suffering for each of the adolescent plaintiffs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
REID (on camera): The incoming Trump administration is expected to reverse federal support for transgender care for minors which means the justices could just dismiss this case.
But there is another appeal out there asking the court to consider this issue a different way and asking whether parents should have the right to make medical decisions for their children. That's an issue that has divided conservatives. And today, both sides of this case agreed that is a question that the court could still consider no matter what they do with this case -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Paula Reid, thank you so much.
Let's bring in Tennessee Attorney General John Skrmetti, who is the respondent in this case, defending the state ban.
Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
So you were at the court today. What was your sense on how the justices heard Tennessee's argument? Do you agree with the observers who say that the majority seemed largely sympathetic to the Tennessee's point of view?
JONATHAN SKRMETTI (R), TENNESSEE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, you never want to prognosticate, Jake, but certainly they were asking a lot of probing questions this is the first constitutional case looking at gender identity issues. And I think the court recognizes that this will have a potentially significant precedential effect. So they were really pressing both sides.
It was a long argument, and they worked through quite a few issues.
TAPPER: Here's a basic question for you. So what do you say to the parents of a transgender minor who say you are taking away the only thing that is keeping my kid from killing him or himself or herself, that your ban, your imposition of your view is going to result in my kid taking his life. What do you say to that?
SKRMETTI: Well, I mean, suicide is very serious and it's a huge concern. And there's been a lot of rhetoric around that. But today at the court, Chase Strangio, the ACLU's attorney, conceded that transition treatments for children do not change the rate of completed suicide.
And so, we hear a lot of rhetoric about how this is the only solution to kids killing themselves, which I think is very dangerous. Nobody wants kids to do that but the actual scientific evidence of research into it shows that it really doesn't make a difference in the in the rate of suicide, whether a child is treated or not.
TAPPER: During arguments, the U.S. solicitor general warned if the U.S. Supreme Court upholds Tennessee's law, it will lead to a nationwide ban, that this will not just affect Tennessee, as you yourself have already acknowledged. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PRELOGAR: I think it's important to recognize that my friend's arguments would equally apply to a nationwide ban if this were enacted by Congress. And so I think that the court should keep that in mind when thinking about the level of scrutiny here.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: Is that the goal here, or do you think that California should be able to do whatever California wants to do?
SKRMETTI: Yeah. I mean, the beauty of our federal system is we have 50 states. The people of each state govern themselves and they're able to make their own decisions.
Now in Tennessee, we tend to think California is wrong about a lot of things, but they're free to be wrong. They are able to do that.
I think a federal ban is a much different issue. There are other constitutional issues involved in that, limits on the federal power. This is all about the states ability to make its decisions for itself.
TAPPER: The law, I have to say, I understand when people who oppose the law say this is an anti-liberty move you are taking away the ability of parents to make decisions with their kid and the health care provider about the treatment that that family wants. How do you respond to that?
SKRMETTI: Well, if you look at the systematic reviews of research every one of them shows little to no benefit for kids from these procedures.
TAPPER: Right, but who gets to determine that. You're not trying to ban nose jobs? You're not trying to ban breast augmentation or breast reduction for that matter? You're only talking about this one issue.
SKRMETTI: Well, I mean, I think the state, when the legislature looked at this, they did an intense review of the research. They talked to experts and each state gets to make its own evaluation when regulating the practice of medicine, of how to balance risks and benefits and how to balance the trade offs therein.
And here, there is a real risk to kids. There are lifelong potential side effects -- permanent loss of fertility, permanent loss of sexual function tumors, blood clots bone density disorders cognitive impairment.
[16:45:12]
So it's not as if you either let them do it or you don't, and that's the only choice. There are major downstream effects on kids, and we regulate the practice of medicine all the time. That's what states have done for hundreds of years.
TAPPER: Do you think that's what this is? You don't think that there's a religious component to this? Is your faith or the faith of the legislators in Tennessee? Is that part of this at all? Is that guiding them at all or guiding you?
SKRMETTI: I mean, I can't speak to what drives each legislator to make their decisions, but you see, the coalition involved in this and there were a number of LGBT groups involved. There were a number of medical groups involved in this. The decision was based on the research.
And if you look at what's going on in Europe, those are countries that are very different than Tennessee or Texas or the various red states here. They have very different commitments very different values, but they've reached the same result through an evidence based approach.
TAPPER: But they're not banning it. It's the difference. I mean, they might be less inclined to think it's the greatest thing in the world, but they're not saying you can't do it.
SKRMETTI: There are pretty severe restrictions on the availability of these procedures for kids. Some of them allow experimental procedures some have age limits that are under 18, but 16 years old. And in the red states, there are different variations on exactly what the prohibitions look like, but the gist of it is an understanding that there is a huge downside for kids, and that the states job is to protect them in an area of unsettled science, especially where the numbers have gone up so quickly for reasons that we don't understand, you want to make sure that kids aren't making lifelong sacrifices when the evidence doesn't show a benefit to them from these procedures.
TAPPER: Tennessee Attorney General John Skrmetti, thank you so much for being here, taking our questions. We really appreciate it.
We're also watching a delicate situation halfway around the world, a ceasefire barely holding between Israel and Hezbollah. CNN's up close look at the destruction in Lebanon by airstrikes before that ceasefire. That's next.
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[16:51:30]
TAPPER: In our world lead, today marks exactly one week since the ceasefire went into effect between Israel and Hezbollah, which the U.S. and Israel consider to be a terrorist group in Lebanon. And even with that fragile ceasefire barely intact, more families in southern Lebanon are starting to return to their homes and survey the damage and point fingers at who they consider to be to blame for the destruction.
Let's bring in CNN's Clarissa Ward.
Clarissa, tell us about some of the people that you've met.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, you can imagine 1.2 million people were displaced during this war. So you're just starting to see hundreds of thousands of them going back to their homes, seeing what remains of their homes. The damage is extensive once you get to the south and I should add, we can't even get right up against the border. There are about 60 villages that the IDF says are still completely verboten. You are not allowed to visit them. That's because IDF forces are still there.
This is all part of this delicate choreography where they have to pull back. And the Lebanese army goes in and the Hezbollah pulls up. But what we did see in the city of Tyre, which is a historic city it's mentioned many times in the bible, a mixed community of Muslims and Christians was extensive damage entire buildings destroyed, people feeling genuinely, honestly like they have no future. Even though this fragile ceasefire is just about holding tight, they don't believe that there will be any kind of a lasting peace.
And so there's a lot of frustration. There's a lot of exhaustion. And it was interesting when we talked to people, Jake, because they're not just angry at Israel, they're angry at America, who they believe has kind of turned away from this conflict, closed its eyes to the suffering of ordinary Lebanese people.
But another thing that's really interesting, and they wont say it on camera, but there are a lot of Lebanese people who are also very angry with Hezbollah, who have absolutely no love for the militant group who feel that they have been forced into a war, that they didn't want. And so while there may be a lot of hatred for Israel for many Lebanese, there's a sense of kind of being caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, if you will, which was really interesting.
Definitely a lot of animosity towards the West, but the prevailing sentiment honestly, is a sense of crushing exhaustion is a sense of how do we rebuild our lives? Where do we get the money? I mean, the World Bank, Jake, has talked about the figures you're talking about well, over $3 billion of damage, physical damage, well over $5 billion of losses to the economy.
The Lebanese government has said 10 billion altogether. So even though this fragile ceasefire is just about holding, you do not see a lot of optimism here in Lebanon, Jake.
TAPPER: Well, on that optimism, let me ask you. It's been a week since the ceasefire. What do citizens think about the possibility of the ceasefire holding?
WARD: I think at the moment, they are desperately praying that it will hold. But everyone is all too aware that it could fall apart at any moment. There is a renewed effort. You have French government people here at the moment trying to ensure that there is a mechanism in place to observe this closely, to call the different sides out when there have been violations of the cease fire.
[16:55:02]
Israel, according to a U.N. peacekeeping force that CNN spoke to as of two days ago, had committed about 100 violations. It does appear to be a little bit better in the last couple of days, but there continue to be violations. And until this 60-day period is finished with and Israeli troops have left, I don't think anyone is ready to breathe a sigh of relief just yet, Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Clarissa Ward, reporting from Beirut, Lebanon -- thank you. Please stay safe.
Coming up next, what's been something of a full court press today of names trying to save the nomination of Pete Hegseth to be Donald Trump -- his pick for secretary of defense. We've heard from secretary -- would be -- would be secretary Hegseth himself. We've heard from a number of Republican senators. We've even heard from his own mother coming up.
Also, we're going to talk to Hegseth attorney and see how he is defending his client. That's coming up next on THE LEAD.
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