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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Source: Suspect's Mother Last Spoke With Him In July; NYPD: Gun Found On Suspect Matches Shell Casings At Crime Scene; Murder Of CEO Spurs Hostility, Rage Online Over Heath Care; Biden Pushed By Dem Lawmakers For More Pardons; Biden Pushed By Dem Lawmakers For More Pardons; CNN On Scene The Moment A Syrian Prisoner Is Freed; Answers To Your Questions On Bird Flu, Milk Supply. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired December 11, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: This hour, a new disturbing case of sexual misconduct, this time involving prominent real estate brokers who are brothers. Prosecutors say they work together with other men to, quote, "repeatedly and violently drug, sexually assault and rape dozens of victims," unquote. Plus, the incredible discovery in a secret Syrian prison, an inmate found alive in a cell thought to have been empty. We're going to show you the exclusive video first here on The Lead.

And leading this hour, one week after the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, New York police are revealing new details about the evidence that they have uncovered and how they say it traces back to the suspect now under arrest, 26-year-old Luigi Mangione. Let's bring in CNN's Brynn Gingras who is live for us from New York.

And Brynn, the NYPD says the gun found on the suspect when he was arrested matches evidence found at the crime scene in Manhattan?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, right, Jake. So this is another piece of crucial evidence that police were waiting on to make that link between Luigi Mangione and the crime scene here in Manhattan. Let's hear from the NYPD commissioner about this ballistic test that was run on that gun you're looking at right there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA TISCH, NYPD COMMISSIONER: First, we got the gun in question back from Pennsylvania, it's now at the NYPD crime lab. We were able to match that gun to the three shell casings that we found in Midtown at the scene of the homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: Tisch also confirming at that news conference something that our John Miller already confirmed earlier today, and that is that the fingerprints found on a KIND bar and a water bottle left at the crime scene, if you remember that we reported on earlier, it was thrown sort of not far from the crime scene as the suspect got away, those fingerprints match those of Luigi Mangione as well. Again, another link here. So crucial to their case. Of course, there are other pieces of evidence that we have talked about, including that fake ID that Mangione had on him, as well as just a number of pieces of video surveillance that police have collected over the last week.

Now, next steps, of course, this is all going to go now in front of a judge again as prosecutors continue to work on getting Mangione back here through the extradition. Jake.

TAPPER: And police are also looking into Mangione's notebook and the writings within it. Tell us about that.

GINGRAS: Yes. So Jake, this is all again pointing toward what is the motive here, trying to really be precise about it. And this notebook, it was a spiral notebook that had some writings by Mangione, according to sources telling CNN. And in that notebook there's references to the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski which we have seen other references before in writings. And in this particular one, it talks about how using a bomb to carry out an act wouldn't be really smart because it would kill innocents, quote, but a shooting could be more targeted.

And it says, basically referencing that what better way to kill someone than to kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference. So this is really the first time we're hearing about a conference. Again, this all pointing to a motive. All part of this investigation as they continue to try to piece together what exactly happened here and link it to Mangione.

TAPPER: All right, Brynn Gingras, thanks so much.

CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller has been all over this case.

And, John, we're learning new information just since the last time you and I spoke. At the top of last hour, we're talking about the last time Mangione spoke with his mom.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, that's right. And it's in the larger context of trying to figure out what happened to this young man who came out with a master's degree in Engineering from UPenn, went to Honolulu, was taking, you know, a surfing lesson, injured his back, goes to San Francisco, and then, at least according to the police report filed by his mother, according to sources, goes off the grid. Why is that important? Because we're looking for insights as to when this turn came that was a turn towards obsession and violence.

Now, according to a police report filed with the San Francisco police, and we've spoken to people who have reviewed it, on November 18, Mangione's mother reports him missing to the San Francisco Police Ingleside Station. Why San Francisco? Because she's back home in the East Coast. But that's the last place she knew him to be living. She said the last time she actually saw or spoke to him was back in July. So, this call in November is preceded by, according to the report, multiple calls from her to his cell phone that just run into a voicemail and then a voicemail that says it's full and can no longer take messages. She calls TrueCar, the company where she works, and according to the report, she informs police that that number is now disconnected and that the office is appear to be closed. So her son's phone has gone off the grid. His employer seemingly is no longer available, and she was asking police to look for him.

Now, San Francisco Police, when contacted by CNN, and we'll try to dig deeper on this, referred us to the NYPD, saying all records regarding Mangione are going to be referred to NYPD because of the murder investigation.

[17:05:10]

But we are starting to get a clearer picture of Mangione's time in San Francisco where he stayed in a youth hostel very much like the one he stayed in New York, allegedly before the murder. But not really where he kind of started to make this turn, other than the injury he came back with that started the back pain, that started the writing online about his suffering, which, of course, could, could go to the motives behind this crime, given the contact he must have had with various parts of the medical community.

TAPPER: So now that the NYPD says the gun found on Mangione when he was arrested matches the shell casings found at the crime scene, what other evidence do police need of anything?

MILLER: Well, I mean, the evidence is starting to surround him, right? The fingerprints taken when he was arrested in Altoona, P.A., match prints found on the scene of the murder in New York City. The shell casings and the murder in New York City match the markings of the gun that he was arrested with in the McDonald's in Pennsylvania.

The third important piece is going to be the DNA matches. They're not in yet, as far as we know, but that'll be the third piece in the troika. And then the rest of it is going to be all the videotape of his movements leading up to that murder and after.

TAPPER: John Miller, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

And we're hearing from a high school classmate and former roommate of Mangione expressing their shock over the arrest and the serious allegations being made against him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FREDDIE LEATHERBURY, MANGIONE'S HIGH SCHOOL CLASSMATE: This is one of the last people you think would do something like this.

R.J. MARTIN, MANGIONE'S FORMER ROOMMATE: Never once talked about guns, never once talked about violence. He was absolutely a not violent person, as far as I could tell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in someone who knows the Mangione family, Thomas Maronick Jr. He's hosted a show on a radio station owned by the Mangione family.

So, Thomas, what was your reaction when you first heard the allegations against Luigi Mangione? And how have you processed the news since?

THOMAS MARONICK, FRIEND OF MANGIONE FAMILY: It's complete shock. This is the last person you would think to do something like this coming from the family that he's from. This is a very esteemed family. They're tremendously supportive of charities. They own golf courses, they own real estate, and, of course, WCBM, which is how I knew them.

But how do I process this since, it seems like the case is certainly building even day by day. John's report, I think, really just shows that the evidence is really mounting against Luigi Maggione.

TAPPER: Have you spoken with the family at all?

MARONICK: I have not. I didn't expect to speak with them about this. They put out a statement saying that they were shocked, they were horrified. They offered their condolences to the victim. And I think they're really trying to internally process this.

This is obviously very difficult with a member of their family having been named in this case, and particularly with some of these developments.

TAPPER: When you saw the pictures of the assailant or the suspect, rather, in the murder of the health insurance company CEO, did it occur to you that looked like Luigi Mangione or it didn't?

MARONICK: I'll tell you, Jake, I never met, to my knowledge, Luigi directly. I may have met him in passing, but my reaction upon seeing that it was a local Baltimore person was to look at the last name and say, I wonder if this is the same family that I have known for 20 years, been on their radio station for 20 years. And I just couldn't believe it when I saw that. When I saw the picture, I said, he sure looks like somebody who's part of the Mangione family. And sure enough, that's exactly who he was.

TAPPER: You were talking about how he came from this prestigious family, a charitable family. We also know that he was high school valedictorian. He got a degree, not just undergraduate, but I think a graduate degree from Penn. You've noted that the Mangiones are a prominent family in Maryland. What is their influence in the Baltimore area?

MARONICK: Well, for one thing, Jake, they're very active politically. The nephew of Luigi, which is Nino Mangione, he is actually a state delegate. And the Mangiones have been sought out for elections, particularly by the Republican Party. That would be one area of influence. But also with their businesses to have them help out a charity or help out a cause, that's something for which many people have sought them out.

For example, St. Leo's in Little Italy has charitable fundraisers all the time, and they have an Italian festival that they sponsor. And the Mangiones have been tremendously supportive of that. Those would be a few examples. But obviously, the Loyola University pool, that bears their name.

[17:10:12]

TAPPER: Thomas Maronick Jr., thank you so much. Appreciate your insights.

This CEO's murder has created a stark moment in American culture, as if different Americans react to the suspected motive in different ways. I want to get into that part of the case next. Plus the unbelievable find in a secret prison in Syria. The person -- the prisoner that CNN stumbled upon when our team was searching for something else. See that discovery coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our national lead now, true crime stories have inspired countless T.V. shows and films and podcasts. The real time intrigue and outrage around the murder of United Health Care CEO Brian Thompson is something that we have not quite seen like this before. We turn now to Joan Donovan of Boston University, who recently wrote a book called "Meme Wars, The Untold Story of the Online Battles Upending Democracy in America." And we're also joined by David Smith, a healthcare economist who hosts the podcast the "Cost of Care."

Joan, in terms of the response to the brutal murder of a father of two, a husband, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, how do you see the moment in our culture that we're experiencing right now?

[17:15:11]

JOAN DONOVAN, CO-AUTHOR, "MEME WARS": Yes, I think that, you know, social media has really come alive in this moment because this case really marries two things that really do well on the Internet, which is true crime and memes. And so even the message that was left behind at the crime scene of deny, delay, depose, is set up in such a way so that the Internet would bite and be able to circulate all kinds of stories. And I think that the deepest resonance has been that many of us, it's almost a universal, that we've experienced very high cost health care and at our most vulnerable points have been denied coverage. And I think that's resonating with a lot of people.

TAPPER: And David, you have your own personal stories of loss and frustration with the health care system after the deaths of your father and your sister and your brother, what was your response to the praise for the murderer and the loathing for the insurance industry? And I realize those are two separate things.

DAVID SMITH, HOST, "COST OF CARE" PODCAST: Yes, well, look, Jake, it's unfortunate. Obviously, somebody lost their lives. Kids are going to grow up without a father. He's leaving behind friends, family and everything. To Joan's point, you can absolutely understand this moment with social media.

There's a lot of people that are using this channel and this event to really express grievance. Grievance about the system, grievance about the way they've been treated in the system. And that grievance is born from the fact that each of us puts 15,000 bucks a year into the system. We spend $5 trillion on system collectively and people go bankrupt. They're met with wrong doors, they're met with indecision.

People are angry, they're fed up with the system. And they're alone. People feel alone in this. So, suddenly there's an event, there's this opportunity for people to come in and express that grievance. It's the wrong way to go about systemic change, but it absolutely highlights something in the culture that's been sitting under the surface for a long time that this has brought to the fore.

TAPPER: Yes, something very real, which is why we have you two on the show right now to discuss it.

SMITH: Yes.

TAPPER: Joan, there are a range of reactions here, from the sinister, such as these wanted posters of other CEOs that were put up on Wall Street to complaints about people's personal frustrations with their -- how their own health claims, insurance claims were handled. I'm wondering if the online culture that is fueling some of the worst of this is, obviously, it's distasteful, but it is also bringing forward a discussion that, you know, maybe Bernie Sanders and Liz Warren have been trying to have this conversation nationally for years and years and years, but this moment is really bringing it beyond politics.

DONOVAN: Yes, I think it's really, truly a universal experience, and it really hits at these bipartisan lines where you don't have to be, you know, Republican or a Democrat to have suffered from lack of health care, especially at moments when you are at your most vulnerable.

And what we try to point out in the book "Meme Wars" is more about the conditions under which we get political violence. And political violence happens in moments when people lose faith in institutions. And so it's also very clear that what is also being expressed on social media is a loss of faith in who is going to hold these companies responsible for these incredibly exploitative policies that do leave you feeling very alone and isolated at moments when you also might feel like you are -- or loved one is about to die. And I think that hopefully we can start to have, of course, a more mature conversation about that while also looking towards justice for those who've been harmed by not just the violent attack, but also by the lack of really good health care in the United States.

TAPPER: And David, quickly, if you could, what is your one or two sentence recommendation for people out there who are frustrated with the health insurance industry? How should they be channeling their anger?

SMITH: Better understand the system. There's tons of resources to get a little bit smarter on it. The system needs reform. This is the wrong way to start a conversation, but to Joan's point, it's a conversation we have to have. We need to get smarter.

We need to activate and we need to blow the system up because it's failing too many people. It's costing us too much.

TAPPER: And just for the record, David means that figuratively, not literally.

David Smith and Joan Donovan, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

[17:20:01]

The reaction has been swift to the major news from FBI Director Chris Wray announcing he plans to step down. The reception for Wray's statement is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our politics lead, we're getting brand new reaction on Capitol Hill to the news that Christopher Wray plans to step aside as head of the FBI. He's essentially been fired by Donald Trump. And there's also reaction from Kash Patel, the man tapped to take Wray's place. Let's bring in CNN's Lauren Fox.

Lauren, Patel was on the Hill today. What did he have to say?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Patel's been crisscrossing the Hill all week for these very important confirmation meetings. But before today, it was really an interview for a job that didn't yet exist. But he had this to say about how he would be ready on day one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASH PATEL, TRUMP'S PICK FOR FBI DIRECTOR: We look forward to a very smooth transition and I'll be ready to go on day one. The senators have been wonderful and I look forward to earning their trust and confidence through the advice and consent process and restoring law and order and integrity of the FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:25:04]

FOX: And interviews with several Republicans on Capitol Hill, including Senator John Cornyn, who is a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, there's really this sense of sort of relief that Wray is deciding to step down on his own. Here is what Cornyn said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I think President Trump had lost confidence in him and I think we know how that would end. And so hopefully that will facilitate a smooth transition to the next FBI director.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And Patel has been meeting with senators and really getting a strong response from a lot of Republicans. Senator Kevin Cramer, Republican from North Dakota, said he believes that he can support Patel's nomination. I also heard from Cornyn on Monday after his meeting with Kash Patel that he was prepared, barring any unforeseen circumstance, to go ahead and support Kash Patel. So this is all coming as Patel is really starting to garner support among Republicans and those critical votes that he's going to need as he moves forward vying for this job.

TAPPER: OK, Lauren Fox, thanks so much.

Sticking with the criminal justice system also in our politics lead, while the final days of a presidency are typically reserved for political pardons, President Biden's pardon of his son Hunter ignited a debate over what the President is exactly doing with his pardon power. As of now, Biden has granted fewer pardons than Trump or Obama. Many civil rights activists and faith leaders, and now even those within his own party, feel Biden has fallen way short on his 2020 campaign promise to reform the criminal justice system. And they urge the President to use his clemency power during these final days in office.

Sources tell me that a group of Democratic House Senate and House -- Democratic House and Senate members are pushing the President to step away from only looking to pardon people he knows or people he's related to. Some of those members include Senator Dick Durbin, Senator Cory Booker, Senator Raphael Warnock, Congressman Jim Clyburn, and Congressman Steven Horsford, who's chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus. They're asking Biden to consider granting clemency to those who received stacked sentences before the First Step Act went into effect during the Trump administration.

The First Step Act eliminated the practice of stacking sentences to give the harshest penalties possible if somebody has a firearm. One example of someone who fell into stack sentences is Weldon Angelos. He was sentenced to 55 years in prison for three small marijuana sales as a first time nonviolent offender. Fifty-five years because he possessed a gun, so his sentences were stacked.

Weldon Angelos is out of prison now. He was pardoned by Trump. Republican Senator Mike Lee of Utah was the one who brought a lot of attention to Mr. Angelos and the practice of stacking.

Another category of individuals Democratic lawmakers want -- considered pardoned are those who are serving out the remainder of their sentences in home confinement under the CARES Act. The CARES Act moved low in minimum security, low risk reoffenders to home confinement during COVID to finish their sentences. And finally, lawmakers are urging Biden to grant clemency to those who would have benefited from the passage of the Equal Act that would eliminate the sentencing disparities for crack cocaine and powder cocaine. Those sentences have for a long time been viewed as entirely discriminatory because the sentences for crack cocaine possession were 18 times longer than those for powder cocaine and disproportionately harmed black and brown communities. Now, the Justice Department changed its charging policy in 2022, but those convicted before that change continue to serve longer sentences.

There is also a push to take all 40 individuals off of federal death row, giving them instead life in prison. So far a number of Democrats involved in this process feel, however, that the White House is not listening to any of these requests. Deaf ears. The White House says Biden will have more to announce on pardons and commutations before he leaves office. But these Democratic lawmakers, as I understand it, are rather frustrated, as are some individuals at the Justice Department, Mr. Biden's own Justice Department.

And just imagine, by the way, if the President had announced he was pardoning all of these people and also Hunter. Something to think about.

Let's jump in with our panel.

Maria Cardona, so you aggressively nodding during that entire tell. I assume you agree that some clemency, some mercy, some forgiveness from the President for some of these nonviolent offenders is in order.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. And I've spoken to some of the offices of the senators that you just mentioned and some House members, too. Hakeem Jeffries has also been very vocal about how he hopes President Biden will do this before he leaves. There are so many individuals, all the ones that you mentioned and others that have been so aggressively gone after by the Justice Department for very low nonviolent offenses, and like you said, overwhelmingly and disproportionately from black and brown communities. And as somebody who campaigned on criminal justice reform and on equality and on sort of bringing that kind of fairness to the justice system, I think President Biden can make a mark on this.

[17:30:08]

His time is running out, but he has until January 19th to do this. So my hope is in this next wave of pardons that you mentioned the White House talked about, many of these people in many of these categories will be included.

TAPPER: What would have been the reaction, do you think? I know I love to bring people to earth too for a second. But if the Hunter Biden pardon had been in the midst or at the end of, hey, I'm looking -- taking a look and showing mercy to these thousands of other people and here's the reasons why I'm doing it, because the Stack act, which you know, the -- the stacking removal which Republicans were in favor of too, and this and that. And also while I'm doing this for these people I've never met, I'm also going to show some mercy to Hunter.

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I think it would have been a couple different things. I think you obviously would still -- still have had a huge outcry and the -- the argument would have been you're trying to kind of slip Hunter through and say maybe, I don't know, 40 or 50 other people. And I think also again, the other big argument on Hunter was that you were pardoning him for crimes he wasn't even technically convicted of --

TAPPER: Sure.

GORMAN: -- over a -- over a longer period of time. I think on the other things, I -- I -- I think Maria's point, I -- I think you could see some Republican support of some of these. I think taking folks off death row and giving them life sentences, I think that would probably be a nonstarter from a lot of Republicans. I think you'd probably see that. And look, you know, certainly Biden hasn't been shy about doing pardons over the last couple weeks.

There could be more. I mean, we've talked about preemptive pardons from the Biden administration for some of the folks. So who knows if maybe you do see folks mixed in with some of these other pardons as well.

TAPPER: Just -- just something to think about. These Democrats are pushing those. I thought it was interesting and I hadn't heard it. Stef, welcome to The Lead. Good to have you here. I want to change subjects, turn to your reporting along with Mike Allen. You write that Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. The controversial pick of

President-elect Trump to head the Department of Health and Human Services, is using his influence to push a different agenda, placing his daughter in law for a top job at the CIA. And the reason, he says is he wants proof that the CIA killed his uncle, John F. Kennedy. I don't even know what to say. Explain what you uncovered.

STEF KIGHT, CO-AUTHOR, AXIOS HILL LEADERS: Well, we know that RFK Jr. has publicly said that he believes that the CIA was involved in the assassination of -- of President Kennedy. And he also suggests that the CIA was involved the death of his father as well.

And this has actually come up in some of the phone calls he's been making to push for his daughter-in-law to get the deputy director position at the CIA. He sees that as part of the pitch that she's going to get to the bottom of this. We had two sources tell us that this has been coming up and it is a real reason for why he's -- he's pushing her for this role. And, you know, it's interesting because it -- it gives us a good example of why maybe RFK Jr. and Trump get along so well.

They both feel like they are victims of this kind of deep state in the federal government and they're going to do what they can to go after that. And it's just another example of how this is really going to be, you know, a Trump revenge presidency in a lot of ways.

TAPPER: So, and we should note, Fox Kennedy was the campaign manager for RFK Jr.'s run for the White House and she had worked at the CIA previously. She wrote a book about it, "Life Undercover." But that doesn't mean she's qualified to be deputy director, is -- is she?

KIGHT: I mean, there are certainly already concerns among Republicans. I heard from four different Senate Republican sources just this morning who are saying that a clip of her essentially asking for more nuance in how we talk about ISIS, that was making the rounds already, that people were concerned about that Republicans are already -- already raising their eyebrows about her qualifications, some of the statements she's made, and feeling like this could be a risky -- risky pick if this does move forward. Of course, we're not sure exactly how the President-elect feels about her as an option, but we know that RFK Jr. has a lot of sway with Trump. Trump wants to keep RFK Jr. happy. He sees RFK Jr. as kind of this -- this emblem of her -- of his broadened MAGA base.

TAPPER: Yes.

KIGHT: And that he wants him to be promoting Trump ongoing, and so he's going to try to make him happy.

TAPPER: Speaking of promoting family members, I want to note that Trump is making Jared Kushner's father, whom he pardoned last time, the job. He's offering him the job of ambassador to France. He named his other daughter Tiffany's father-in-law, a different father-in-law of a different daughter, a senior advisor for Arab and Middle Eastern affairs. He's been clearing the deck to have his daughter in law Lara Trump, Eric's wife, to fill Rubio's Florida Senate seat.

And just today, Donald Trump Jr.'s former fiance, Kimberly Guilfoyle, has being nominated to be ambassador to Greece. That's quite a family jobs program.

GORMAN: Quite a family jobs. Look I -- I think it's a little different. I don't -- I don't really get outraged at ambassadorships in the same way I would say a CIA thing. I mean like for example the current Greek ambassador was rejected when he was nominated to be ambassador of Norway because he actually had never been in Norway and didn't even know the system of government there.

Under President Obama, a previous French ambassador was former CEO of the Muppets. These things are political jobs and usually political appointees they usually go to friends of the president or fundraisers of it. I can't really get that outrage about ambassadorships going to family members or close friends.

[17:35:02]

CARDONA: The U.S. government has becoming a Trump family business. But, you know, do we really -- are -- are we really that surprised that this is something that he's doing? I mean, we knew that this was something that he wanted to do, that this is sort of his M.O. That this is kind of something that he didn't necessarily campaign on it, but this is who he is.

And so I think moving forward, this is going to be an indication that he's not there to really appoint the best people for the job. He's not there to appoint people who are going to focus on getting the job of the American people done. He's focused on getting whatever it is that he wants done.

TAPPER: I remember when I covered the Obama administration, I did a lot of conversations --

GORMAN: Yes. That was embarrassing. Yes.

TAPPER: -- of the -- of the ridiculous ambassador nominees among, you know, in amongst qualified people.

GORMAN: Yes.

TAPPER: But it was some pretty crazy stuff. Thanks one and all for being here.

CARDONA: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Good to see you.

Coming up next, a stunning find in Syria when a padlock prison cell was shot open. You're going to see it only on CNN and you'll see it first here coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: We're going to bring you a CNN exclusive now from inside Syria. It tops our World Lead, as Syria's new rebel leaders say they will not pardon Assad regime officials who tortured and killed prisoners during the decades of his brutal reign. CNN's Clarissa Ward went to a Syrian prison to find someone still locked in a cell with no idea that Assad's regime had fallen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[17:40:16]

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Deep in the belly of the regime's Air Force Intelligence Headquarters.

WARD: These are English letters.

WARD (voice-over): We are hoping to find traces of Austin Tice, an American journalist held captive in Syria since 2012. It's one of many secret prisons across the city. This specific branch was tasked with surveillance, arrest and killing of all regime critics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are all cleaned up.

WARD (voice-over): We don't find any hints of Tice, but come across something extraordinary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't tell, though. It might just be a blanket, but it's the only cell that's locked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he going to shoot it?

WARD (voice over): The guard makes us turn the camera off while he shoots the lock off the cell door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lights up.

WARD (voice-over): We go in to get a closer look. It's still not clear if there is something under the blanket.

WARD: Oh, it moved. Is there someone there? I thought I saw it move. Is someone there? Or is it just a blanket? I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touch it. There is someone. Hello?

WARD: OK. Let me just (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I told you. It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. Journalist, journalist, journalist, journalist.

WARD (voice over): I'm a civilian, he says. I'm a civilian.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. It's OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): He tells the fighter. He's from the city of Homs and has been in the cell for three months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

WARD: OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK.

WARD (voice over): He clutches my arm tightly with both hands.

WARD: OK. Does anyone have any water? Water?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD: OK, it's water. It's water. OK. OK. OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK.

WARD (voice over): We start to walk him outside. Thank God you are safe. Don't be afraid, the fighter says. You are free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): This is the third prison they brought me to, he says, the third prison. After three months in a windowless cell, he can finally see the sky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): Oh, God the light, he says. Oh, God, there is light. My God there is light.

WARD: OK. OK. Sit, sit, sit. OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD: You're OK.

WARD (voice over): Stay with me, stay with me, he repeats again and again. WARD: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): For three months, I didn't know anything about my family, he says. I didn't hear anything about my children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): The fighter hands him something to eat, barely lift it to his mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): But his body can't handle it.

WARD: OK. You're OK.

WARD (voice over): His captors fled during the fall of Damascus, leaving him with no food or water, that was at least four days ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): I'm shaking. My face is shaking, he says. The rebel tells him there's no more army, no more prisons, no more checkpoints. Are you serious? He says. (Speaking in Foreign Language) Syria is free, he tells him. It's the first time he has heard those words.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD (voice over): He tells us his name is Adel Khurbar (ph) and that officers from the much feared Mukhabarat Intelligence Services took him from his home and began interrogating him about his phone. They brought me here to Damascus. They asked me about names of terrorists, he says. Did they hit you, the fighter asked. Yes, yes he says.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

[17:45:05]

WARD (voice over): As a paramedic arrives, the shock sets in. There's nothing. Everything's OK. The Red Crescent is coming to help you, this man assures him. You are safe. Don't be afraid anymore. Everything you are afraid of is gone.

Tens of thousands of Syrians have disappeared in Assad's prisons. Up until 15 minutes ago, Adel Khurbar (ph) was one of them. He is still petrified. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid, the ambulance worker reassures him. Every car I got into, they blindfolded me, he says. It is the end of a very dark chapter for him and for all of Syria. But so many ghosts remain.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WARD (on camera): Jake, I have to say, I have been doing this job for nearly 20 years now, and that really was one of the most extraordinary moments that I have ever witnessed.

We don't know why the regime of Bashar al-Assad took Adel Khubar (ph). He doesn't know why they took him. He was basically living a very simple life in the city of Homs, in an area called Khalidiya. He said the Mukhabarat basically came to his house and said that there was some issue with people he had been making phone calls with.

But we have to be very clear here. This is the type of thing where the Mukhabarat would take anyone with impunity. They would detain them. They would interrogate them. They would beat them. They would keep them for months, years on end. They didn't have to give a reason. You didn't even have to be an activist. You didn't even have to be part of the opposition against Bashar al-Assad.

So many of the people, Jake, who disappeared inside these dungeons were ordinary Syrians struggling to understand what on earth they had done to get there in the first place. We don't know where Adel Khubar (ph) is now. He got into that ambulance. We offered to give him our phones to call his family.

But as you can see, in that moment, he was in a state of profound shock. He wasn't able to collect himself to the point where he was able to get in touch with his family. But all of us, of course, are wishing that he is safely reunited with them and that all of the prisoners who have been held for so long without any legal recourse, those who are alive, will be returned to their loved ones soon, Jake.

[17:47:46]

TAPPER: Another just absolutely remarkable report. CNN's Clarissa Ward in Damascus doing vital, vital journalism. Thank you so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we're back with the Health Lead and Dr. Sanjay Gupta on call. Yesterday we asked for your questions on the bird flu outbreak in dairy cattle and how it could affect the U.S. milk supply. So let's get some answers and let's bring back Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, let's start with a question from Vinod in Houston, Texas. Who asks, is there a vaccine for bird flu?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So the -- the short answer is -- is yes, but there's a limited number of doses. It's not commercially available for people.

There was some discussion earlier on about potentially making those doses available to farmworkers. They're the people most at risk that we know of. And they actually did this in Finland, Jake, where they -- they offered those to farm workers in Finland. They haven't done that in the United States. So I still think that's under consideration.

There are some vaccine makers who are talking about making a larger supply of the vaccine, possibly even using mRNA technology, something we talked a lot about during the COVID pandemic. And, you know, still there is a flu shot which might offer some protection in terms of symptoms against the H5N1, but it's not specifically directed for that. So, yes, there is a vaccine. Not enough doses at this time.

TAPPER: So we've been talking a lot about unpasteurized milk. Gail asks, we've been buying unpasteurized cheese at Whole Foods in Monterey, California. Is that safe to eat?

GUPTA: Yes. This is a great question. So unpasteurized cheese, raw milk cheese. What is interesting about this is that you can buy that in the United States. It is heavily regulated in the United States, though. And what that specifically means is that if it's made with unpasteurized milk, that has to sit for 60 days before it can be sold. And the idea is that if you wait 60 days, that should really reduce or eliminate the chance that those pathogens such as E. coli or salmonella or listeria would still be present in the cheese.

They also add various acids and salts, which can also sort of reduce the amount of pathogens in the cheese as well. I'll tell you, in other countries, it's different. I was in Italy, Jake. They have a raw cheese festival there. Something that they actually eat quite a bit of, not the case here in the United States.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, On Call, thanks. Always good to see you.

[17:54:48]

Coming up next, prominent real estate brokers who are brothers were arrested today in a New York sex trafficking case. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Wrapping up with some last leads in our Law and Justice Lead, two well-known real estate brokers in New York and their brother were charged in a sex trafficking plot. Federal prosecutors allege that since 2010 they've been baiting and drugging and sexually assaulting multiple women. This morning authorities arrested the brokers, Oren and Tal Alexander and their brother Alon. All three are siblings.

An attorney for Oren Alexander says he's innocent. The FBI and U.S. attorneys say one or more of the defendants, quote, raped, drugged or assaulted women they met by chance in bars or nightclubs, social events and dating apps, unquote.

And now to the solution of the mystery of the missing kayaker, Ryan Borgwardt, who disappeared in August, flew back to the U.S. from Eastern Europe on Tuesday. Officials say he faked his own death, leaving behind his wife and three children. Borgwardt was charged today in court with a misdemeanor count of obstructing an officer. He pleaded not guilty.

[18:00:08]

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on the TikTok at JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X at CNN -- at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show all two hours whence you get your podcasts.

The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer. He's right next door in a place I like to call the Situation Room. I'll see you tomorrow.