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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Luigi Mangione Indicted In Murder Of UnitedHealthcare CEO; NYPD Commissioner: Praise Of Mangione Is "Shocking And Appalling"; Police Still Don't Know Motive In Wisconsin School Shooting; Rep. Tony Gonzales, (R-TX), Is Interviewed About School Shooting; CNN Follows Up On Prisoner Released; Judge: Trump Does Not Have Immunity In Hush Money Conviction; How French Man Allegedly Organized Mass Rape Of His Wife. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired December 17, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Including one as a crime of terrorism. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg called the shooting a, quote, "Frightening, well planned targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and detention and intimidation," unquote. The District Attorney's office says Mangione faces a sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole if convicted. The New York Police Commission are also using today's news conference to strongly criticize those who have praised Mangione's actions or threatened other executives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: Let me say this plainly. There is no heroism in what Mangione did. This was a senseless act of violence. It was a cold and calculated crime that stole a life and put New Yorkers at risk. We don't celebrate murders and we don't lionize the killing of anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Mangione is due back in Pennsylvania court Thursday morning. His attorneys tell CNN he is not going to fight extradition to New York. Let's get right to CNN Shimon Prokupecz, who was at the District Attorney's news conference about an hour or so ago.

Shimon, what did District Attorney Bragg tell you about the charges?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: For one, Jake, this is the most serious charge, the most significant charge that the district attorney could have brought in this case, in essence calling this an act of terrorism. Listening to him describe this was just stunning, Jake, and in the way he described of how the prosecutors went about in making this decision. Take a listen to some of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: To explain more to viewers how you come to the conclusion that this is an act of terrorism.

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: My point, I mean, the statute talks about attempts to influence or coerce a civilian population. The statute talks about intending to influence a policy of government, and it talks about seeking to, you know, put forth things sort of similar to that by murder. So, the statute, plain language, is the statute is clear. Obviously, we've charged it, the grand jury has voted on it, and we intend to go forward and prove it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And one of the things that prosecutors here use are the notes, the handwritten notes that they were able to recover from Luigi Mangione during the arrest. The prosecutor here saying that he didn't want to go into those notes, but that is some of the information that they're using, those writings in bringing these charges, Jake.

TAPPER: Shimon, are there concerns by the prosecutors about how even one juror in New York City might be sympathetic to this young man, you know, who hates the health insurance industry, which is not a particularly popular industry?

PROKUPECZ: There is a lot of concern here, certainly. And specifically also because they went for the top count here, this murder one in furtherance of terrorism. It's going to be -- you know, it's not going to be that easy to prove. It is certainly something that they are already concerned about. You heard the DA speak about it, saying that they're going to have a jury selection process, but certainly this is going to come up in that jury selection process.

The jurors will be chosen from here in Manhattan, which is a large area. So you will get a diverse juror. But it's going to be very hard to find someone who hasn't heard of this case and who doesn't have any kind of feeling towards this case. The good thing is, you know, we could be a year or so away from trial. So, perhaps the time and distance from when this happened will help that jury selection process.

But also more information could possibly come out as the defense starts putting their case forward and he starts appearing in court. We could, Jake, I should note, see Luigi Mangione back here in court in Manhattan as early as Thursday once he waives extradition. It is possible that NYPD detectives will be able to bring him back here on Thursday once the extradition hearing is done in Pennsylvania, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Shimon Prokupecz, thanks. Let's turn now to CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller, former CIA Counterterrorism Official and former FBI Senior Intelligence Adviser Phil Mudd and Trial Attorney Misty Marris.

Phil, let me start with you. Explain the significance, if you would, of the terrorism aspect of these charges.

MISTY MARRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY: This is certainly very significant because in New York there's a --

PHIL MUDD, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICAL: I think --

TAPPER: Sorry, Phil, to you first. And Misty, I'll come up to you in a sec. Phil, go ahead.

MUDD: OK. I think this might be a surprise to a lot of your viewers, but to a counterterrorism expert it is not. I realize this looks like murder. It is murder.

But let me step through quickly the couple of questions you would ask as a counterterrorism guy. And as a counterterrorism guy, I'll tell you, the U.S. government, when we categorize cases, I don't think this case would be that difficult. One, is an attack against a non- combatant. That is not against somebody in a military uniform, not against somebody in Iraq or Afghanistan. Somebody who is basically a civilian in a non-combat role.

[17:05:02]

Obviously, yes, this is a corporate leader. Second, is there a political purpose? Clearly, yes. This is not about economics. This is not about hate.

This is not about love. This is not about drugs. This is about changing the political dialogue in America about access to healthcare in this country. So those two characteristics, a non-combatant target for a political purpose, that's a clear yes to me, Jake.

TAPPER: Misty, go ahead.

MARRIS: So here's where the prosecutors actually take on a challenge. In general, in a courtroom, a prosecutor does not have to prove motive in order to prove their case. But with this enhancement, the terrorism charges, motive becomes very central and becomes an element that prosecutors have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Not to say they can't care. Clearly, what we know from the public perspective, there's a manifesto.

Much of the case is going to be based on what we saw in there. These are parasites. This had to be done. That all speaks to the broader purpose and that could be enough to get this into this enhanced murder one statute.

TAPPER: And Misty, while I have you, let's pick up on something Shimon was talking about. I want to play what Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg said earlier about getting a fair and impartial jury.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAGG: We have quite a year process in place. I have faith in our jury System to select 12 people who can be fair and impartial. But we'll move forward and that's something well down the road. But we'll be ready when that time comes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So there was a nationwide manhunt. There were pictures of the suspect posted everywhere. Do you think Mangione can get a fair jury trial in New York?

MARRIS: So there's a couple of issues that will be of concern and one of them will be jury nullification. That would be where a juror might, for a public policy reason, find someone not guilty, where they truly believe they're guilty. So that's one issue prosecutors will be contending with. Another is individuals who may want to get on this jury because of how high profile it is.

And then, Jake, to your point that this really impacted New Yorkers, the individuals who are going to be on this jury commuting to work, when we see this video, that happened right in midtown Manhattan. So that voir process is going to be stringent, much like we've seen in other cases. It's not people who don't know about the case. It's people that can come into that courtroom being impartial.

TAPPER: And John Miller, now that the charges have been filed, does that mean law enforcement is basically done with their investigation or they're going to keep going and we might expect additional charges?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Oh, not in the slightest bit, Jake. I mean, when you consider the idea that this murder happened the week before last, that the arrest happened on Monday, that this is not even two weeks old really, that's lightning pace for a case of this level of seriousness with a first degree murder charge. So, no, the investigation is most definitely ongoing. And that includes everything from the video canvas continues to kind of complete that movie that they hope to make that contains almost his every move since he's been in the city. Though the computer exploitation from the laptop that they seized from him in the process of his arrest in Pennsylvania, that's a forensic thing that's going to go on for a while.

The DNA matches that are still at the medical examiner's office. So a lot left to do but the indictment was a key move to get him back to New York to start the process of turning over the evidence they do have in discovery. But the case very much still going.

TAPPER: And Phil, we heard the New York Police Commissioner strongly criticize those who were celebrating Mangione's actions. With the -- they're celebrating the assassination, as well as those threatening other CEOs. Do you think there's a legitimately -- a legitimate risk, a heightened risk of some kind of copycat?

MUDD: Yes. You see this in cases, the cases I followed for a simple reason, and that is emotion. There might be a lot of people, and we know in this case in the insurance industry, there are a lot of people unhappy in America. If you take 100th of 1 percent of 330, 340 million people, that's still a lot of angry people however you want to come up with that number. So the question is, once some of those people who may be inclined toward an act of violence see someone else do it, they may look in the mirror and say, if he has the courage to do it, why not me?

It's not just copycat, it's the ability after a moment like this to get over the emotional cliff to say, I can do it too. I'd worry about that a lot, Jake. TAPPER: Thanks to all of you.

The other major story we're following today, new details from police as they try to figure out a motive in yesterday's school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin. What investigators are now revealing to the public, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:13:37]

TAPPER: In our national lead, investigators this afternoon said they're still trying to figure out why a 15-year-old female student opened fire at her school in Madison, Wisconsin yesterday. She killed a teacher and a student and wounded six others. Today, investigators acknowledged a document that's been circulating online.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF SHON F. BARNES, MADISON POLICE: We know a document has been widely shared on social media. At this time, we cannot verify its authenticity. We have detectives working today to determine where this document originated and who actually shared it online. The process for doing that is looking at original documents that may have been taken from the suspect's home, looking at information that may be on laptops or on computer to determine if this document originated from our suspect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in Trish Kilpin. She's the executive director of the Wisconsin Department of Justice Office of School Safety. Also, let's bring in Dave Cullen, the author of the book "Columbine" and another called "Parkland, Birth of a Movement."

Trish, let's start with you. You've said school violence is preventable. What behavioral clues can students, parents or anyone for that matter be aware of when a child might be showing signs that they're struggling?

TRISH KILPIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, W.I. DEPT. OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF SCHOOL SAFETY: That's a great question. There's this myth that kids just snap and that they conduct acts of violence, and that's simply not true. When somebody plans to conduct a school shooting, they go down a discernible path. And during that time there's observable behaviors that others can pay attention to. We see fascination with other school shooters.

[17:15:14]

We do lots of research and planning and preparing for that event. And all of this time, peers and community members can bear witness to those things and report them so those tacts can be investigated and averted.

TAPPER: And Trish, how should children report these warning signs, especially if they feel uncomfortable doing so or might not have access to a trusted adult?

KILPIN: We have Speak Up, Speak Out, Wisconsin, and that is our 1-800- tip line. 1-800-MY-SUSO-1. It is where all reports can be reported confidentially so that they can be assessed and children can have confidence that what they're reporting will be investigated.

TAPPER: Dave Cullen, earlier this year, you wrote an article marking the 1999 Columbine massacre's 25th anniversary. You wrote, "25 years later, Columbine haunts our present and our future with no end in sight," unquote. Explain why you think that is and what you think can be done to change that.

DAVE CULLEN, AUTHOR, "PARKLAND: BIRTH OF A MOVEMENT": Well, we pretty much know because the killers keep telling us. And there's a graphic, we did the new edition and the Atlantic, 58 or something documented cases where the shooters said they used Columbine as either inspiration or a model. And it's much more than that because many of them followed, for instance, one fellow -- one of the colleges that followed Sandy Hook, that followed Virginia Tech, that followed Columbine, so they're like five or six deep, many of them. And nearly all of -- and that's just the ones we have documented. So most of them are sort of reliving what the Columbine killers did and sort of like working off that template and continue, you know, perfecting from each other.

TAPPER: What resources do you believe are needed that would help prevent school violence and support shooting survivors and victims, but most importantly, preventing there from being shooting survivors and victims?

CULLEN: Yes. Yes. Sadly, when my book came out 15 years ago, I was asked the major lessons, and the number one by far, I said was the great unlearned lesson of Columbine was finding teen depression, screening for teen depression. And we haven't done much of anything since. It's still the number one.

Now, when I -- pre-COVID, I spoke at a lot of high schools and some, the minority of high schools are doing that. There's a very simple form. There's a one page, there's several of them that you might have the graphic for that takes about 30 seconds to fill out. It's about 10 questions like in the last two weeks, have your mood change, sleep habits, you know, eating and so forth. And that is a very high degree of effectiveness at catching depression.

And so if we just know, can we find the kids who need treatment? That's the easiest thing in the world. Costs almost nothing. Simple to do. But the problem is that depression nearly always manifests first during adolescence puberty as the brain changes.

So parents are very unaware. My kid's sad, but like something real has changed.

TAPPER: Dave Cullen and Trish Kilpin, thanks to both of you.

Let's continue this discussion with Republican Congressman Tony Gonzalez of Texas. He represents Uvalde, where 19 children and two teachers were killed in the horrific school shooting two years ago. Thanks so much for being here, Congressman. We appreciate it.

As the founder and co-chair of the bipartisan School Safety and Security Caucus, you released a statement yesterday saying, quote, "It's shameful for lawmakers to stand by while mass violence continues to plague school campuses. We need a national strategy to detect and prevent this kind of terrorism from taking place across our nation."

Now, we should note we interviewed a parent from the school earlier in the show and he talked about how they had done drills, they had automatic locking doors, how teachers were there to stand in between the potential shooter and the students. One of them even brandishing his scissors for third graders to protect third graders. What more do you want to see? Because it sounds like that school was aware of the danger and did do something. They just didn't have, you know, metal detectors.

REP. TONY GONZALES (R-TX): Yes, Jake, you know, two and a half years after the Uvalde shooting, I'm not convinced our children are any more safe than they were then. And a big part of that is we're dealing with a national epidemic. This is not, you know, a certain area. It's all over the country. It's no longer just male shooters, you're having female shooters now.

It's all different types of races. It's small towns, it's big cities. This is a national epidemic. And in my eyes, I think back to my military service, you have to have a strategy. So what I am pushing for is a national strategy on school safety.

[17:20:02]

Meaning this, you have a one stop shop where one agency is in charge of that. DHS in my eyes should be that agency. When there's a hurricane, who responds? FEMA responds. This is a mass shooting, a school shooting is no different than that.

So I think that's an area of need. We need to find out -- some of these schools are doing it better than others. But the reality is all schools are in need of more resources, more training, and ultimately, to what your previous point host -- or guest just said, we need to listen to our children and get ahead of the problem, not always respond to it.

TAPPER: What do you think about safe storage laws that require parents who have children under 18 to lock their guns away? I understand that the gun lobby is not in favor of any restrictions on gun ownership, including safe storage laws, but it seems common sense.

GONZALES: I think it's more simpler than that. I mean, we need something even less contentious than that. And that, to me, that's the strategy part where you can just, can we agree that someone should respond? Can we agree that there are these grants? I've been working -- and it's not only on the Hill, it's outside of the Hill as well.

I've been working with Matthew and Camilla McConaughey on a variety of different issues. One of them is their Greenlights Grants Initiative. We passed this bipartisan Safer Community Act. Billions of dollars in there for school safety. A lot of that money is stuck in Washington and hasn't made it down to these schools.

So, there's all these ideas -- I mean, you mentioned one of them, but to me, it's even more simpler than that. We got to get Washington to come together. To me, the national school strategy is that spot where we can begin to move in a positive direction.

TAPPER: Do you intend to bring this up with President-elect Trump after the inauguration?

GONZALES: Yes, I do. And once again, this isn't -- in my eyes. It shouldn't be a partisan issue. All across the country, we're seeing these school shootings happen. All across the country, we're seeing not only a grow, I mean, you all put up a stat earlier today, what, 84 school shootings this year, more than we've ever seen?

TAPPER: Yes.

GONZALES: This number is only increasing.

TAPPER: Yes.

GONZALES: It's not decreasing. So how do we get ahead of it? I think part of it is you don't talk about guns, right? You don't talk about the fact that it was a nine millimeter today or it was an AR. What is something we can agree on?

To me, it's a strategy, that's how you fight and win wars is you first start with a strategy of how do we empower our children to protect themselves before they even get to that classroom?

TAPPER: Well, I mean, again, I don't want to bring up a contentious issue, but keeping -- I mean, there's this Venn diagram, right?

GONZALES: Sure.

TAPPER: It is -- it's not just with school shootings. It's with all shootings, which is -- that remove criminals from a second. I just talk about people in mental distress.

GONZALES: Sure.

TAPPER: There are people in mental distress, most of them are not a danger to themselves, not a danger to others. And then there are people who have access to guns. Most of them are not a danger to themselves, you know. But where the diagram comes together in that little area, that's where there needs to be action. And one of those places I see, and I say this as a gun owner is, why not require parents to have safe storage so that their kids don't get access to their guns?

GONZALES: This is what I don't want us to go. I don't want us to go down a rabbit hole where that -- is that going to keep -- is that going to save lives?

TAPPER: Yes.

GONZALES: Maybe. Yes. No, I mean, maybe, right? So we should --

TAPPER: Because, you know, the number one people talk about gun deaths in this country ?

GONZALES: Sure.

TAPPER: Two thirds of them are suicides.

GONZALES: Sure. Essentially, we should be having the conversation. Congress should be sitting down and bringing all these different ideas together and essentially saying, what can the politics handle? And right now, the politics can't handle very much. Everyone is saying, to your point earlier, everyone is saying that's a bridge too far, that bridge doesn't go anywhere, and all we're doing is a whole lot of nothing.

Meanwhile, more and more of our children are being killed --

TAPPER: Yes.

GONZALES: -- you know, by themselves, like they're killing one another.

TAPPER: Right.

GONZALES: So, to me, I look at it through the lenses. What is the lowest hanging fruit that can bring us all together? And to me, that's a national strategy on school safety. If we can't get that over the finish line, how are we going to get some of these even more contentious issues?

TAPPER: All right, Republican Congressman Tony Gonzales of Texas, thanks so much for being here. Appreciate it.

GONZALES: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: It's a significant milestone today in Donald Trump's return to the White House. We'll show you the moment he officially clenched the presidency this afternoon. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:28: 20]

TAPPER: In our world Lead, we have an update on a story we brought you last week from Syria. As rebel forces overthrew the government of Dictator Bashar al-Assad, it threw the country, having been gripped by more than a decade of civil war into complete chaos. One aspect of the unfolding situation, prisons were opened, families flooded to the prisons to find any answers to where their missing loved ones might be. CNN's Clarissa Ward was in one of the prisons and had an extraordinary encounter with a rebel guard opening up a locked cell where they found a man under a blanket. He claimed to have been held captive for three months.

Moved to three prisons. And in the moment Clarissa and her crew came upon him, he claimed he did not know that the Assad government had fallen. Clarissa and her team initially found the man while pursuing leads on trying to find the missing U.S. journalist Austin Tice. Let's go back and take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We go in to get a closer look. It's still not clear if there is something under the blanket.

WARD: Oh, it moved. Is there someone there? I thought I saw it moved.

Is someone there or is it just blanket? I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?

WARD: OK. We just (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. Journalist.

WARD (voice-over): I'm a civilian, he says, I'm a civilian.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It's OK.

[17:30:07]

WARD (voice-over): He tells the fighter. He's from the city of Homs and has been in the cell for three months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

WARD: OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK.

WARD (voice over): He clutches my arm tightly with both hands.

WARD: OK. Does anyone have any water? Water?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

WARD: OK, it's water. It's water.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Now after that piece aired, Clarissa and her team began learning more about this man. And they discovered that he had falsely identified who he was and his past. Clarissa Ward has kept up with the story. Let's hear with the update. Clarissa, what do we know about this man now?

WARD: Well, Jake, obviously from the minute we witnessed this astonishing moment, we're trying to dig up more information on this prisoner. We weren't able to find anything with the name he gave us, Adel Khurbar (ph). But in the days after our report aired, CNN started talking to people in the city of Homs who told us that his real name is in fact, Salama Mohammad Salama.

He is reportedly a lieutenant in the Air Force Intelligence Directorate. He is also known as Abu Hamza (ph). He was known to run Air Force Intelligence checkpoints in the city of Homs. He's accused of extorting and harassing people. And we have now been able to corroborate the information those residents gave us with a photograph of Salama.

And it's clear that far from being an ordinary guy as he presented himself to be, he was a part of Bashar al-Assad's brutal regime who somehow found himself in prison. We don't know why he was arrested. The fact checking website verify as why. Has said that he was held in the prison where we found him for one month because of some kind of a disagreement over profit sharing of extorted funds with a higher ranking officer.

That lines up with what we've been told. But CNN cannot confirm that. We are continuing to dig, obviously, and as of this moment, we have not been able to contact Salama himself.

TAPPER: And this moment certainly captures the complexity of the situation in Syria.

WARD: Absolutely. I mean, listen, Jake, it certainly captures the complexity with regards to Syria's prisons and detention centers. This regime collapse with lightning speed. Thousands of prisoners were released. And the reality is that we know almost nothing about who was held on what charges, where all these detainees have gone now.

And -- and when the guard, who was one of the rebels, when he opens that cell door, you can see the shock on his face. He literally said to the man, I had no idea you were in there for all these days. And, you know, Assad used these prisons as a -- as a weapon to hold on to power. And this industrial scale detention of opponents. But this clearly shows it wasn't just opponents who were incarcerated and it wasn't only opponents who fell afoul of the regime.

Also important to note, we visited three separate detention facilities while were in Damascus. In all of them, we found vast amounts of documentation, largely unprotected people sifting through it. Much of it was destroyed or burned by the regime as they fled. But there are still huge troves remaining and it's going to take a long time to go through them and get clear answers.

TAPPER: CNN has taken some criticism over how the story unfolded. Talk about how this speaks to the challenges of reporting in war zones and chaotic situations such as this.

WARD: Jake, I think we need to be humble about the challenges. It is a chaotic atmosphere. There is a huge amount of flux. It is very difficult to verify information in real time on the ground. I mean, we -- we spent one day at the notorious Sednayah prison as rescue workers were desperately hammering away trying to find an underground red section of the prison that didn't even ultimately exist.

And they spent days on that search. Stories take unexpected turns. We continue to report them, you know, without fear or favor. But it is immensely challenging in this environment. And I think we need to be transparent about that, Jake.

TAPPER: Absolutely. Clarissa Ward, thank you so much and thanks for what you do.

[17:34:33]

New reaction from President-elect Trump after a judge decides his hush money conviction should not be thrown out. What all of this means for the case, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald J. Trump. Donald J. Trump. Donald J. Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That is the Texas House of Representatives awarding Donald Trump the state's 40 electoral votes with which he officially crossed over the 270 electoral vote threshold. One needs to be elected president or in this case, reelected. As Donald Trump clinches the presidency, he is still fighting legal battles.

New York Judge Juan Merchan is refusing to throw out Trump's conviction over the hush money cover up payments to Stormy Daniels. Merchan ruled Monday that Trump's conviction should not be tossed out despite the U.S. Supreme Court's decision on presidential immunity. Merchan writing, quote, if the act of falsifying records to cover up the payments so that the public would not be made aware is decidedly an unofficial act, so too should the communications to further that same cover up be unofficial.

Trump railed against the ruling today. He called Merchan a radical partisan and responded to the decision on his social media site, Truth Social, quote, if allowed to stand, would be the end of the presidency as we know it, unquote. Let's bring in CNN's Kara Scannell, and former New York State Supreme Court Justice Jill Khan Visor. Kara, we're just over a month until Trump's inauguration. Where does this case go between now and Inauguration Day, January 20th? And what is the Trump team saying?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Trump's team, as you just put up his Truth Social post, they are, you know, criticizing the judge, continuing down that path of calling him biased. And what we do expect is that they will move to appeal this decision. They're allowed to under the law. But this is just one of the many avenues that Trump has been trying to get the conviction overturned and the indictment dismissed.

[17:40:15]

There is still a pending motion before Judge Merchan, which Trump has challenged the case because he is now President-elect, saying that this ongoing litigation would interfere and influence his decision making as he's heading into the White House. Trump's lawyers also raised a new argument that the judge informed the public about yesterday. In a letter, Trump's team has made vague references to juror misconduct. The judge saying, though, that this is just a reference. It's not any sort of formal motion.

But it does show you that Trump's team is still gearing up to fight and they're still trying to get this conviction overturned just days from Trump entering the White House.

TAPPER: And Kara, do we know anything more about a possible sentencing in this case?

SCANNELL: So a number of lawyers I spoke to say that it is possible for Judge Merchan to set a sentencing date before the inauguration. Once he rules on this next big motion to dismiss, it could come in there or the judge could lay out what he's thinking in terms of sentencing. Now, prosecutors have told the judge that they think there is no impediment to him setting a sentencing date. And they have said that because of the level felony that Trump was convicted of and his age, it's not required that the judge sentence him to prison.

It seems the DA's office wants to try to lock in this conviction, which of course, Trump will try to appeal. Now, if the judge does set a sentencing date, though, I think we can expect Trump's attorneys to try to get a judge either in New York or all the way up to the Supreme Court to stay that sentencing and put it on hold so that Trump is not sentenced before he enters the White House.

TAPPER: So, Madam Justice, you know Judge Juan Merchan. How do you think he came to this decision?

JILL KONVISER, FORMER NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I think a careful reading of the United States Supreme Court's immunity decision makes plain that he reached the correct decision. The United States Supreme Court said core constitutional powers are entitled. The defendant in this case, the president, is entitled to complete immunity.

They then said there are other things that might just be outside the perimeter of that with which is a core constitutional situation, that there should be a presumption of immunity. And finally, they did say that anything that is unofficial is not immune. And the judge found clearly in a 41-page decision that none of these acts were in fact official and therefore the case should not be dismissed and the 34- count indictment should stand.

Keep in mind, though, that he also said in that decision that even if some of the evidence that was used to support that conviction was received in evidence at the trial. Well, in that instance, even if that happened and even if those were partially official acts and perhaps entitled to a presumption, in that situation, it was still harmless. Harmless era is a doctrine well rooted in New York law. And it wouldn't make a difference. And he denied the case. Certainly he was well within his rights to do that. TAPPER: Well, Madam Justice, if immunity -- if immunity does not apply here because it was an unofficial act, do you think Trump's conviction will therefore be upheld even as President-elect?

KONVISER: Well, that's a good question. And of course, that's a decision the appellate court would make. It's not as though the defendant doesn't have an argument that that could happen. And every defendant who takes a case on appeal, almost every defendant has an argument and he will make that argument and an appellate court will -- will review it and say Judge Merchan was right or Judge Merchan wasn't. But that's certainly going to be the issue that will go through the system. Like with any defendant who's convicted of a crime, he's entitled to those -- that appellate process and he'll get it.

TAPPER: All right, Kara Scannell, Jill Konviser, thank you so much.

[17:43:47]

CNN gets exclusive access to the police files in a case that is gripping the world. Those details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: A CNN exclusive in our World Lead now, the horrifying story of French survivor Gisele Pelicot. Dozens of men are on trial accused of raping her over the course of nearly a decade after her husband allegedly drugged her repeatedly and left her unconscious. Pelicot's bravery for facing her alleged rapist in court has sparked widespread demonstrations around France. CNN's Saskya Vandoorne has exclusive access from police reports on how Pelicot's husband used chat rooms to allegedly organize this abuse of her. A warning, the details are graphic and disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER (voice-over): It's the case that's horrified France. 49 men ACC of raping Gisele Pelicot while she was drugged unconscious by her own husband, Dominique Pelicot. Gisele Pelicot's decision to face her alleged rapists day after day has made her an international icon. Her husband of 50 years told police he recruited all kinds of men online, then invited them into their family home and filmed them raping her.

Twenty of Giselle's rapists still haven't been caught according to police. All of Pelicot's alleged accomplices lived within a 30-mile radius of his house, shocking many in the small town of Mazan where they lived.

NEDELJKA MACAN, MAZAN RESIDENT: This area was so quiet and nice area. And now you don't know if somebody who is the next shop is one of these men. It changed everything.

VANDOORNE (voice-over): Pelicot documented the abuse for nearly 10 years. Authorities found footage on his two phones and laptop showing over 200 rapes. CNN has gained exclusive access to those police reports that show the text messages behind Pelicot's elaborate scheme. Messages like, quote, I'm about to dose her. And, it won't be long until she goes to bed. Our friends are leaving soon. I will text you in 30 minutes.

[17:50:19]

From a firefighter to a journalist to a nurse aged 27 to 74 years old, all of the men were connected by one Coco. Coco's chat rooms were easy to access and they were not buried in the dark web as one man accused of raping Gisele Pelicot said.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): I got in touch through Coco in the evening when I was by myself. My wife had gone to bed and I was a little bored.

VANDOORNE (voice-over): Under the pseudonym available all night, Pelicot says he posted in a chat room called without her knowledge. I'm looking for a pervert accomplice to abuse my sleeping wife. You have to be clean without aftershave, no long dirty nails, Dominique said.

Over time, he built a network of men. He told the men what drugs to buy and how to use them.

VANDOORNE: Dominique Pelicot never thought his text messages or his alleged crimes would see the light of day. And they probably wouldn't have if it weren't for the events that took place right here on September 12th when a security guard caught him red handed filming up the skirts of several women.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

VANDOORNE (voice-over): Protesters are calling for all the men accused to face the maximum sentence of 20 years. But some could be handed far less.

As the trial comes to a close, Gisele's message of shame changing sides has resonated around the world. And whatever the outcome, the case is set to impact France's attitude to sexual violence for years to come.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VANDOORNE: Now, Jake, the individual verdicts for Dominique Pelicot and those 50 co-defendants is expected to be delivered on Thursday. Heavier prison -- prison sentences are expected for those men who went back multiple times and allegedly raped Gisele Pelicot. According to court documents, four men went back six times and they face up to 18 years in jail. Dominique Pelicot faces the maximum prison sentence for rape, 20 years. Jake?

TAPPER: Saskya Vandoorne in Paris with a horrifying story. Thank you so much.

It may seem like a funny phrase, but brain rot is something that we have all experienced that feeling after binging too long or scrolling too late at night. But how concerned is should you really be about brain rot? Dr. Sanjay Gupta's On Call, next.

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[17:56:58]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is On Call answering your questions today. Questions about brain rot. Brain rot, that term was the Oxford University Press word of the year. It refers to low quality, low value content on social media and the state of your brain from constant doom scrolling. But is brain rot real? Here now is CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, can binge watching viral videos and reading nasty tweets really rot our brains?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the -- the -- the short answer is -- is yes. I mean it can change your brain. There have been some recent studies on this. It's -- it's interesting and we've known for some time that the -- the sort of doom scrolling or whatever you call it more than three hours being on social media for teens is associated with doubling depression risk. So that's obviously concerning.

The average amount of time people are spending, teens are spending on social media is five hours. Just three hours can double your risk of depression. But what's more interesting, I think, lately is -- is this fact that they've measured these changes that occur in the brain. So, for example, the outer part of your brain called the cortex, the gray matter that can thin in response to a lot of social media use, or just the scrolling constantly, that can affect your cognition.

But also the -- the area in between the gray matter is called the white matter, and that can also be affected, and that can slow down your speed of processing. So scientists are starting to get a better idea of -- of sort of this brain fog thing that people describe and finding out what is happening in your brain, what sort of causes that. And those are two things that might be sort of being attributed to that.

TAPPER: And -- and while I'm talking to you, a reminder to everyone at home to -- to scan the -- the QR code over there. Submit your questions to Sanjay. We can ask them later in the week. We've all been pulled down this rabbit hole of endless scrolling. I know that the algorithms are designed to suck us in. Is there a brain scientific neurological explanation for why it's so easy to get sucked in?

GUPTA: Well, the -- there's two main things, and the -- these studies are really fascinating, I got to say, if you look into this. First of all, we're just surrounded by it. So the immersion in all of these different platforms for adults and teens is -- is very significant. But there's three main criteria that the algorithms really look at. One is this idea that if you've watched five videos of the same thing, you're more likely to watch another one as opposed to just watching one.

So if they get you going, two or three of them, how much you watch is going to make a big difference. How similar is the content? They actually want to give you very similar content to keep you going on this. It's really interesting when you dig into the algorithms and even where you're watching the content or consuming the content, if you're doing it in a place where you're not as distracted, that's going to keep you down the rabbit hole longer as well.

TAPPER: Yes. So it's not -- so I am targeting myself. They're not targeting me. Like all these Instagram posts of the Philadelphia Eagles and sitcoms from the 70s. That's me doing that to myself. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. And again, scan the QR code on the screen. Send your questions on brain rot. Dr. Sanjay Gupta will be back later this week to answer those questions on brain rot.

[18:00:10]

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on the TikTok at JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X at TheLeadCnn. And you know, if you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can get it, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcast, all two hours just sitting right there.

The news continues on CNN with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer right next door in a place I like to call The Situation Room. See you tomorrow.