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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Wall Street Drops After Interest Rate Cut; House Ethics Panel Could Soon Release Matt Gaetz Report; Cheney Blasts GOP Report Calling For Her To Be Investigated; New Details On Teen Killer In Wisconsin School Shooting. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired December 18, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:04]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The floodgates on Matt Gaetz are about to open.

THE LEAD starts right now.

In a surprise reversal and secret vote, the House Ethics Committee decides to release its report on former Congressman Matt Gaetz, the original Trump pick for U.S. attorney general. What did lawmakers learn after investigating allegations of sexual misconduct allegations Gaetz denies as he furiously decries the fairness of the process and threatens to expose every lawmaker who settled a #metoo case.

Plus, retribution. A Trump ally in Congress now recommends that former Congresswoman Liz Cheney be criminally prosecuted? And President-elect Trump seems to bless the idea. Is this just the beginning of prosecuting people who opposed Trump?

And with just weeks before a ban on TikTok goes into effect, the U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear a legal challenge. A "New York Times" TikTok reporter is here to break it all down.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're actually going to start with breaking news in our money lead right now. The Dow, the S&P 500 and the Nasdaq all finishing the day in the red after the major decision just hours ago announced by the Federal Reserve to slash interest rates for a third time this year and signaled fewer rate cuts next year than previously expected.

I want to get right to CNN's Matt Egan. He's at the Federal Reserve here in D.C.

Matt, tell us what is behind this big drop on Wall Street.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Jake, this is all about the Federal Reserve, not what they did today. They cut rates. We knew that was happening.

The more significant news is that the Fed is making clear that they're in no rush to do further interest rate cuts next year, that they need to see more progress on inflation before they cut rates any further. The Fed had been penciling in four rate cuts for 2025. Now they only see two rate cuts. They also significantly bumped up their inflation forecast.

All of this really spooked investors. We see the Dow closing down about 1,100 points, 2.6 percent. This is the 10th straight day where the Dow is in the red. That's the longest losing streak since 1974.

Now that's just the Dow. It's only 30 stocks. The broader markets are not down by quite as much. And we should note that markets are still pretty close to all time highs. But clearly, this news from the Fed this uncertain outlook around inflation and interest rates is not sitting well with investors -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Matt Egan, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Let's turn now to our politics lead. It turns out we may get to see what was in that House. Ethics report on Matt Gaetz after all. And a huge about face the House Ethics Committee secretly voted earlier this month to release its report into the conduct of now former Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz. That's according to multiple sources.

Remember back in November, while Gaetz was still President-elect Trump's choice to be U.S. attorney general, this same panel of five Democrats and five Republicans voted strictly along party lines, thus keeping the report under wraps, which presumably means at least one Republican changed his or her mind and sided with Democrats to release the report. The report, which could be released in days, contains the results of the committees years long probe into allegations against Gaetz, including whether he engaged in sexual misconduct or used illicit drugs or shared inappropriate images or videos on the House floor, and much more.

Gaetz has denied all of this, and he posted today on X, quote, I was charged with nothing. He's referring to the Justice Department investigation, fully exonerated, not even a campaign finance violation. My 30s were an era of working very hard and playing hard, too. It's embarrassing, though not criminal, that I probably partied womanized, drank and smoked more than I should have earlier in life. I live a different life now, unquote.

Let's go to CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

Manu, how soon will we be able to see this report?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It could happen within days. Jake. The agreement from according to sources telling us that they the agreement that was reached by the committee was to essentially release it on the final after the final day of votes in this congressional year, the final day of votes could be tonight, it could be tomorrow, it could be Friday. And then this Congress ends on January 3rd at 11:59 a.m. So really, any time between the final day of votes and then when this Congress ends.

Now, the reason why this has changed is in part because the ethics committee, when they voted initially back in November, that report wasn't totally finished yet. There were still some changes that were being made. Some members at the time had cited the fact that this investigative report was still ongoing as one reason why they don't think -- they didn't think it should be out publicly.

And then afterwards, of course, at that point, he was still Donald Trump's pick to be attorney general.

But after it was clear that he would not get the votes, the United States Senate withdrew from consideration.

[16:05:05]

That freed up these members to perhaps change their mind, perhaps not take the heat from Trump to go ahead and vote to release this report. We know from our reporting that at least some Republicans on the committee suggesting that they did side with Democrats who are pushing very hard to release this report. They did meet earlier this month on this issue.

And, Jake, it is also notable that Gaetz, of course, has had a long time maintained frosty relations with Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill. Perhaps one reason why some Republicans didn't want to spare him here and are willing to see this explosive report come out within days.

TAPPER: All right. Manu Raju, thanks so much.

CNN's Paula Reid has investigated allegations against Matt Gaetz for months. She has details now on what is likely to be included in this ethics report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FORMER REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): It is a horrible allegation and it is a lie.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Congressman Matt Gaetz has repeatedly denied having sex with a woman who was just 17 at the time, an allegation that has been investigated by the Justice Department and most recently by Congress.

GAETZ: I am the most investigated man in the United States Congress.

REID: Back in 2020, the Trump Justice Department opened a criminal investigation into whether the Republican congressman had sex with a minor. Over two years, the investigation expanded to look into allegations of sex trafficking, prostitution, obstruction of justice and public corruption.

GAETZ: The things that the House ethics report were true, I would be under indictment and probably in a prison cell. But, of course, they're false.

REID: While Gaetz denied wrongdoing, a former Trump aide told the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th attack that Gaetz sought a preemptive presidential pardon from Trump before he left office.

ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ATTORNEY: The pardon that he was discussing requesting was as broad as you could describe from the beginning -- I remember from the beginning of time up until today, for any and all things.

REID: In February 2023, the Justice Department revealed it would not bring charges amid questions about whether central witnesses in the investigation would be perceived as credible before a jury.

But a House ethics investigation, which had started in 2021 and been put on hold while the federal probe was underway, was reopened under then Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: A member of Congress wanted me to stop an ethics complaint because he slept with a 17 year old. Did he do it or not? I don't know, but an ethics is looking at it. There's other people in jail because of it.

REID: The ethics probe closely followed the Justice Department investigation, speaking to many of the same witnesses, including the alleged underage victim.

REP. MICHAEL GUEST (R-MS): He is no longer a member of Congress, and so I think that this settles any involvement that the Ethics Committee should have in any matters involving Mr. Gaetz.

REID: After he was nominated to be Trump's attorney general, Gaetz resigned from Congress.

But questions about the ethics probes findings continue to dog him. Eight days after his nomination, Gaetz abruptly withdrew from consideration. Minutes before CNN broke the news that the ethics report contained new details about a second sexual encounter with a minor.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

REID (on camera): Now, in that statement that you referenced earlier, he says, I never had sexual contact with someone under 18. And he claimed that I have would be destroyed in court.

But multiple sources tell us that the alleged victim at the center of these investigations told the House Ethics Committee that she had two sexual encounters with Gaetz when she was just 17. That wasn't enough for the Justice Department, where she gave consistent testimony to charge the former congressman. But now, it will be up to the court of public opinion.

Jake, I'll also note that in this statement, while Gaetz sort of dismisses this as partying too hard in his 30s at the time of these alleged incidents, he was a sitting member of the United States Congress.

REID: Interesting. Paula Reid, thanks so much.

Let's get some quick reaction about this pending report.

Brad, at least one Republican on the Ethics Committee crossed party lines to vote in favor of releasing the report. What do you make of that?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, in a town with a lot of reptiles, Matt Gaetz is the least popular snake. And the lesson here is don't come to Congress and stab absolutely everybody in the back, including your own party, because then there will be no favors. Curt, cut to you at the end.

I think you know what most members of Congress look at when they see Matt Gaetz is a guy who was not loyal to the team, didn't make life easy on him.

And they think he bragged about it. You've heard Markwayne Mullin talk about him bragging about these exploits that are in the Ethics Committee report, or the kinds of things, anyway. That -- I think that's the problem here, is that the charges ring too true. So that's why there's no slack.

TAPPER: Do you think that there will be blowback against members of the House Ethics Committee for this coming out? You were one of the few Republicans to vote in favor of impeaching Trump. You faced some blowback.

What do you think? Should they worry about?

FRED UPTON (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: No, I think most, most constituents around the country are going to say, thank God this stuff came out.

[16:10:02]

It's like George Santos. I think the Santos sort of stink, sort of spilled over into this case a little bit. I mean, here's a guy that was as guilty as sin and, you know, they didn't resign on his own. It finally forced a vote, but it was a year later.

And this is -- I mean, as you said, Gaetz had no friends. Absolutely none. He made -- he was a braggadocio. I mean, he was always looking for the limelight and, you know, this was going to come out.

The Senate was going to had -- had the -- had the AG cabinet post move forward, the Senate would have made sure that they saw that report before they came out.

TAPPER: Ashley, Gaetz had a couple of interesting tweets today. One of them says somebody suggested the following plan to me: show up on January 3rd to Congress, participated in the speaker election.

He was elected to the new Congress, after all, which is true. He was. And then he resigned, of course.

Take the oath, then file a privileged motion to expose every #metoo settlement paid using public funds, even of former members, resign and start my program on the One America News Network. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

What do you make of that? First of all, let me just say, I'm all for it. Yeah, full transparency, release it all, release it all. What do you think?

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, VP HARRIS: No, I agree, I think release it all. But, you know, to the question about why the Republican voted to release the report, the reality is, is the Republicans, at this stage in the House and on the Ethics Committee, have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. He's no longer a nominee for the AG, so they're not going to run afoul of Donald Trump. So they have nothing to lose and everything to gain because they want to keep damaging these guys, as you know, as the as what was said is he has no friend on either side of the aisle.

So these so folks wanted to release this report not just in the interest of transparency, but to damage him so they can't run for governor of Florida, for example. But one thing I would caution is there's a lot of jobs. I've worked in two White Houses, in the White House, in the administration, where you do not need Senate confirmation.

So let's not assume that Gaetz goes away even when this report comes out. He could still be the White House counsel. There's a lot of big jobs that he can hold.

TAPPER: Well, for now, we know he's going to be an anchor on One America News Network. And we'll see.

ETIENNE: You can still get a pardon.

TAPPER: Yeah. He can still get a pardon. Yes.

TODD: He can't come back to Congress though. Ballots dropped in Florida's first district today, absentee ballots.

TAPPER: Oh, okay. Interesting stuff. Everyone stand by. I want to talk about another major report on the hill, one from a Trump ally targeting former Congresswoman Liz Cheney.

Is this step one from the president-elect and his political retribution campaign?

And a new threat from Elon Musk? The warning he just issued to House Republicans and Senate Republicans today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:36]

TAPPER: Back with our politics lead. Quote, Liz Cheney could be in a lot of trouble, unquote. That threatening 3:00 a.m. Truth Social post from President-elect Donald Trump after House Republicans released a new report recommending that the former Republican congresswoman from Wyoming, Cheney, should be investigated by the FBI and prosecuted for her role on the January 6th committee, specifically because Cheney let Trump aide former Trump aide Cassidy Hutchinson testify.

Cheney says the report, quote, fabricates lies and defamatory allegations in an attempt to cover up what Donald Trump did on January 6th.

CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill.

Lauren, Trump promised on the campaign trail to prosecute his political opponents, and it appears he has Republicans ready to help him do just that.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, and it wasn't that long ago that he said on "Meet the Press" that he believed that some of these members of the January 6th Committee could be jailed, Jake, and I think that what you're seeing here in this report is really a roadmap to go after some of those political enemies, like Liz Cheney.

Now, I would note that Cheney is responding as well as Bennie Thompson, who was the Democratic committee chairman of the select committee on January 6th. He said, quote, his so-called report, referring to Barry Loudermilk's report, is filled with baseless allegations rather than facts.

That's because there's no escaping the reality that Donald Trump bears the responsibility for the deadly January 6th attack, no matter how much Mr. Loudermilk would love to rewrite history for his political purposes.

Now, this could have a chilling effect on lawmakers who, in the course of their normal business and their job, have an obligation to do these kinds of investigations, to invite witnesses in, to have them testify. It's also something that I'm hearing from other Democrats who are saying that, you know, Liz Cheney acted as a patriot.

I was talking to Madeleine Dean just shortly ago, where she was basically arguing that she served with Liz Cheney. She saw her time and time again, act in a way that she put country before party. But obviously, Jake, there are a lot of lawmakers who are concerned about what this could mean for them doing their jobs moving forward.

TAPPER: And, Lauren, we just got some brand new reporting from our Kaitlan Collins on Trump's thoughts on this spending bill that is on Capitol Hill, on Capitol Hill right now. That seems to be quite imperiled.

FOX: Yeah. Kaitlan Collins, our colleague reporting that throughout the day, Donald Trump has been calling this spending bill that was unveiled last night. It includes more than just spending a bad bill. And that obviously could have a major effect on the vote count among Republicans, especially in the House of Representatives.

We saw a tweet earlier from Elon Musk encouraging members to vote against this bill. We still don't have a timeline for when they would actually vote on the floor.

But right now, Republican leadership is scrambling to try to come up with a plan B. Is there a way, perhaps, to pare back this legislation so it is more just a straight spending bill that gets them to mid- March, as well as disaster aid? Is that a possibility?

But on the other end of that negotiation is the reality that Democrats are going to be needed in large part to make up the vote count here. So they have to make sure that if they are going to do something to try to plus up the vote count on the Republican side, they don't lose it on the Democratic side, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Lauren Fox on the Hill for us, thanks so much.

The panel is back.

And let's go back to the Loudermilk subcommittee investigation of Liz Cheney.

[16:20:04]

We got a statement from CNN political commentator Alyssa Farah Griffin, who was Trump's White House communications director and is named in the report.

Loudermilk's report claims she acted as an intermediary between Liz Cheney and Cassidy Hutchinson, and Griffin said in her statement, quote, this report is full of inaccuracies and innuendo. The report wrongly states, and without any evidence that I acted as an intermediary between Cassidy Hutchinson and Liz Cheney for a month, that is not true.

You served with Barry Loudermilk.

UPTON: And Liz Cheney.

TAPPER: And Liz Cheney.

UPTON: And Matt Gaetz.

TAPPER: And what do you -- what -- do you see this as a legitimate report, this Loudermilk report?

UPTON: No, I haven't read the report, but a couple of things. Article One, Section Six of the U.S. Constitution protects members of Congress from criminal and civil cases.

She was doing her job. This was a Liz Cheney. This was a select committee. It was approved by the House. They had lots of witnesses. I mean, it's part of the routine.

I mean, if you -- you can't really -- I mean, this -- this would be unconstitutional, probably to go against her.

The second thing is, and I'm not a lawyer, but if this did go so that she has to be a defendant, think of the people that she could call that refused to testify before the Select Committee.

Kevin McCarthy, what -- what about that line the president allegedly called you and said, I guess they care more about the election than you do, Kevin, on January 6th?

All of that -- I mean, I mean, this is a can of worms that I don't think really anybody wants to see.

TAPPER: And speaking of can of worms, I want you to take a listen, Brad, to what Trump's daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, has to say about this report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARA TRUMP, FORMER CO-CHAIR, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: This is just the beginning, Benny. If you think this is good, wait until Donald Trump gets in there. Wait until Kash Patel gets in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This -- I mean, it's not like a surprise that Donald Trump is seeking retribution and that Lara Trump is promising more. But do you think that that's a good use of his -- their time?

TODD: I think this is a major trap for -- for President-elect Trump. You know, he has two objectives, I think personally, like he does want to settle some scores, but he also wants to capitalize on the momentum. He just had a tremendous victory. He won the popular vote. He had a much bigger Electoral College vote than we thought. He ushered in Republican gains up and down the ballot. This is a moment for him to begin acting on.

A lot of the policy promises he made toward the future, and increase, increasingly solidify that electoral coalition, which really is a realignment. I don't think he can do that by seeking revenge on people who he thinks wronged him in the past, and who did wrong him in the past. I think it would be a trap for him to fall into to do this.

TAPPER: So, Ashley, Cheney says that no reputable lawyer, legislator or judge would take this seriously, but that's just reputable ones. I mean, I don't know, by the way, that this Congress, this Congress seems much more deferential to Donald Trump than previous ones.

ETIENNE: I think you're absolutely right. And I think that should be the concern of the everyday Americans. But also, that's where it presents an opportunity for the Democrats. You know, this is sort of, you know, the beginning of Trump's retribution campaign. No doubt. He's going after the media, going after reporters, going after Liz Cheney, all the truth tellers.

You know, we spent a lot of time in the lead up to the election talking about the Democratic Party, Joe Biden's age, Kamala Harris's laugh, Black male voters, when really the issue that we -- I think -- didn't spend enough time on is the deprivation of the Republican Party, how they've sort of sank to this new low.

They used to be the party of law and order, the Constitution. They were the biggest patriots. You couldn't out-patriot a Republican.

Remember when they gave Barack Obama hell for not wearing a U.S. lapel pin? And now, all of a sudden, they're going to look the other way while Donald Trump pardons people who attacked the Capitol building? I mean, I don't know any more egregious act against American democracy.

And the other fact that we don't talk about now is democracy was on the ballot in November, and it was the biggest loser. But the question for me is whether or not Democrats are going to be able to take full advantage of this opportunity and hold Donald Trump accountable for what he said he was going to do, which is improve peoples economic state, reestablish our positioning in the world and really, you know, make good on that populism agenda.

TAPPER: You keep coming on the show and talking about these Democrats. Who are you?

ETIENNE: Who am I talking about?

TAPPER: I recall --

ETIENNE: Who do you -- who you're referring to?

TAPPER: I recall there being Democrats. I'm not really sure --

ETIENNE: I don't know where they are right now, though. You know, it's like we're licking our wounds. We got to get through this.

TAPPER: On these issues -- I don't see them out there, the way that you're calling for them to be. Thanks one and all. Really appreciate it.

Coming up, new details revealed about the 15-year-old shooter who killed a teacher and student in Wisconsin this week and her parents' cooperation with the police investigation.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:28:44]

TAPPER: In our national lead now, in Madison, Wisconsin, a community in mourning after Monday's school shooting at a private Christian school, a teacher and a student were killed. Six others were wounded, including two students currently hospitalized with life -- with life- threatening injuries. Court documents obtained by CNN reveal personal information about the 15-year-old shooter and her home life.

CNN's Whitney Wild has details about those documents as police work to try to figure out the motive.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (voice-over): New details emerging about Natalie Rupnow, the teenage student who opened fire at a private Christian school in Madison, Wisconsin, Monday, killing two and wounding six others. A Facebook photo posted by Rupnow father in August shows her at a

shooting range. A comment from her dad on the photo says they joined the range in the spring and, quote, we have been loving every second of it.

She is seen also wearing a KMFDM shirt, a German industrial rock band whose lyrics were cited by the shooters at the Columbine High School massacre in 1999 in Colorado. The band at the time condemned that horrific attack.

The band's music also accompanied a TikTok post from Dylan Butler shortly before he opened fire at a school in Iowa in January, killing two.

Police say Rupnow parents, Jeff and Melissa, are cooperating with the investigation. New court documents obtained by CNN reveal that her parents married and divorced twice within the span of about ten years.

[16:30:02]

The documents also show a complicated arrangement, ultimately giving Jeff primary custody and with regular visits from her mother with her parents living roughly 40 minutes apart.

The documents also show that Natalie attended therapy, and her parents were encouraged to join her. Both Jeff and Melissa Rupnow have not responded to CNN's multiple requests for comment, but court records say at one point there was a generally positive co-parenting relationship.

According to police, Rupnow used a handgun in the attack, but it's unclear how she obtained the weapon.

Meanwhile, the small community in Madison, still in shock, held a candlelight vigil Tuesday evening outside the Wisconsin state capitol. The shooting at Abundant Life Christian School marks the 83rd school shooting in the U.S. in 2024.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our children, our loved ones are stuck between a crossfire. When is it enough?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WILD (on camera): Jake, these days continue to be so challenging at this very moment. People are returning back to the school, back to the ministry next door to receive the items that they left behind on Monday. So imagine how difficult that must be for the families to come back here to get the things that were, for all intents and purposes, part of their normal day on Monday until it all went horribly wrong.

TAPPER: All right. Whitney, thank you so much. Whitney Wild in Madison, Wisconsin.

I want to bring in former senior FBI official Katherine Schweit. She created and led the FBI's active shooter program, which was created after the Sandy Hook massacre. Katherine, about three months before this shooting, you gave a keynote

address at the annual policy meeting for the associated -- Association of Christian Schools International. That's a protestant educational organization, Abundant Life Christian School, where the shooting took place Monday, is accredited by that organization.

Were any security measures intended to prevent school violence brought up at the meeting you attended?

KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER SENIOR FBI OFFICIAL: Yeah, I spent a couple of hours at that providing that keynote and having intimate discussions with many school officials who are around -- from in from around the country here, and they were here in Washington, D.C., and all of our discussions were based on security.

They're keenly concerned about the security at their schools. And we talked about, you know, whether you should take what kind of baby steps you should take versus big steps, you know, baby steps being make sure that the doors are locked to make sure that everybody's got a bead on the students to know if they're under stress and under duress.

And then big steps like, can your school afford bulletproof doors or shatterproof glass and other security systems, including magnetometers in every school is in its own position, Jake. They just don't know for sure what they can afford, but they work at it one piece at a time. And that's really what I encourage them to do.

TAPPER: These school shootings obviously invoke a lot of fear and concern among parents. What do you say to parents who are scared about sending their kids to school?

SCHWEIT: You know, I get that question. I feel like every day, whether there's a shooting or not. And I say to them, schools are safer than homes when it comes to gun violence. By far, there are more children killed in homes than at schools.

School shootings are very rare, but of course, we give them outsized coverage when it comes to news because it kills us. It breaks our hearts to see children live and go and go to school in fear. But I think parents really are the first and often missing link to talk to their students about how, yes, it's important to be prepared for a disaster, but it's not a requirement that it's going to happen.

Just like a fire, right? We haven't lost a child to a fire since the 1950s in the United States, but we still do fire drills, hurricanes, tornadoes, security. When it comes to gun violence or knives or any other kind of violence is just something where the parents need to talk to the students first and then also encourage them to say something if they see something. Because I'll tell you the most astonishing fact that we pulled out of the data on the research that the FBI behavioral experts did on our shootings after Sandy Hook, was that 92 percent of the school shooters told someone of their classmates that they were going to do this.

TAPPER: Do you know of any new security measures being worked on right now that could prevent school shootings?

SCHWEIT: Overall, I think there's physical security requirements. I know there's a new company that it has produced and it is about to distribute, make available bulletproof doors. I think about that teacher saying that she had the students saying the teacher had a pair of scissors and was standing behind the door. And I just think, oh, my gosh, that's heartbreaking, right?

But there are also companies that are -- are trying to provide the smoother access, particularly to badging in and badging out, you know, to make sure that doors are locked as you go through the school and that students have a chance to go through someplace that might detect a large metal object.

TAPPER: All right. Katherine Schweit, thank you so much for your time and expertise. It's not just concerned citizens talking about drones. What the NFL now flags about reported incidents. I'm going to speak with the folks the league is calling on to take action. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:39:35]

TAPPER: In our national lead now, even the NFL is raising concerns after a month of suspicious drone sightings.

Cathy Lanier, the league's chief security officer, says threats, incidents and incursions by unauthorized drones over NFL games surged from 12 in 2017 to more than 2,800 last year. And Lanier wants lawmakers to do something about it, saying, quote, with the nations attention now focused on drones, we again call on Congress to protect critical infrastructure and mass gatherings such as major sporting events, unquote.

[16:40:07]

My next guests are exactly the folks the NFL is calling on to act, Democratic Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan and Republican Congressman Andrew Garbarino. They want counter drone legislation included in the new spending bill. Members of

Congress, thanks for joining us.

Congresswoman, let me start with you. The proposal says this legislation will give law enforcement the tools it needs to safeguard communities. Exactly what kind of tools are we talking about?

REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Sure. And let's back all the way up. This legislation had its origins, actually, when the Eagles last played in the Super Bowl out in Kansas City -- I'm sorry -- out in Arizona, unfortunately lost to Kansas City.

I had the opportunity to go watch our Birds lose. But I also got the idea as a result of talking with the NFL at that time, that this was a vulnerability that not only they have, but we do whenever we have large events. And so came back and introduced this piece of legislation that has now become attractive to other people because of the drone sightings that were seeing all up and down the East Coast.

Importantly, the drone sightings that were seeing up and down the East Coast are not dangerous. They're not illegal. They're not little green men, but they do give us the reasons that we need to pass this kind of legislation to make sure that that when people do wish us ill, that people have the authorities, the local, state and federal governments to work with one another to be able to stop this -- these incursions.

TAPPER: Congressman, what's the biggest threat right now, do you think, posed by these drones that people are spotting across the northeastern United States?

REP. ANDREW GARBARINO (R-NY): Well, the fact that they're entering restricted airspace just in New York, we had Stuart airport was shut down because of these drones entered up. You're hearing from the NFL. We've heard from Major League Baseball as well.

You know, this is proactive legislation. You're seeing these drones up there that aren't doing any harm now. But you know, there could be somebody who does do harm in the future. And it's over one of these -- these arenas or an airport.

So it's better to be proactive and pass this now. So local agencies and authorities can -- can take -- take control before something awful really does happen.

TAPPER: And Congresswoman, you sent this directly to speaker John Johnson. Have you heard back from him?

HOULAHAN: The only way that we've heard back so far is that the extension of some of the existing authorities is included in the CR that is on the consideration right now. But the extension of authorities to law enforcement, local law enforcement is not in the CR that we're looking at. As recently as about two hours ago, this was brought up on the Senate floor by Senator Schumer and, unfortunately, was kicked back for the next Congress.

And, again, you know, we have time still here. There is time to do something about this, and this is the last time that we'll be together before such a big event as the inauguration will happen. And so, it's important for us to take advantage of this momentum now.

TAPPER: And, Congressman, you're from New York. What are you hearing from your constituents?

GARBARINO: Oh, we're hearing, we're getting so many calls and getting so many texts. Every time somebody sees something in the sky now, they think it's a drone.

People want to know what's happening and not -- they're getting no answers from the administration. Nobody's really said what they are, because they really might not be much to report, but it still isn't laying. Anybody's concerns as to what they could be or what could happen in the future.

So people are very worried, you know, and the lack of information out there is, is something that its in a vacuum. You know, sometimes people go a little crazy. So we got to get some better information out there as to what's happening right now.

But the most important thing we have to do is, is to pass this legislation. So in the future, if any one of these gets close to an airport again, gets close to a baseball game, a football game, the local authorities can -- can take it over and make sure that there's no real danger intended.

TAPPER: Congresswoman, do you think the Biden administration has had the right attitude about this? They seem to have been -- their comments seem to be interpreted by many as being dismissive. No evidence that they have nefarious intent. Any of these drones, which doesn't, of course, answer the question about like, there's no evidence that they don't either and, you know, they're acting as if this really, really is no big deal.

What's your take?

HOULAHAN: Yeah. What I would say, Jake, is that I serve on the Intelligence Committee as well as the Armed Services Committee. And so I spend the bulk of my days when I'm down in D.C. understanding these kinds of issues. I was at the intelligence briefing yesterday where almost three dozen members of the administration of every letter of the alphabet intelligence agency you could imagine was at the table.

And to a person, their narrative was these are sightings of drones, of airplanes, of stars, of satellites. But they are not nefarious in nation -- in nature, nor are they violating existing laws. There does need to be the opportunity to take advantage of this, though, knowing that there will be only more drones underneath our Christmas trees in another few days to make sure that were legislating about this emerging threat.

TAPPER: All right. Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, Congressman Andrew Garbarino, thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it.

[16:45:01]

GARBARINO: Thank you.

HOULAHAN: Thank you for having us.

TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN's Pete Muntean here.

And, Pete, you have new reporting about laser strikes possibly connected to these drone sightings.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: This is an unfortunate outcome of this drone frenzy that people think that they are seeing a drone. It is actually an airplane. And they're using a high-powered laser pointer like this one. I bought it on Amazon for 29 bucks, pointing it at the cockpit of an airplane. It's called a laser strike. And the big deal here is that this can temporarily blind pilots or worse. The FAA has just given us new data that says that there is a massive

uptick in these laser strikes, typically on a night nationwide, pilots in the U.S. report about 30 laser strikes in total. Just last night, the FAA tells me that pilots reported 123 laser strikes nationwide. No doubt people thinking they are drone hunting.

And over the state of New Jersey, there were 24. So were almost on a normal night nationwide, just over New Jersey alone, a 269 percent uptick, according to the FAA. The problem here is that so many people have been warned about this already, not only from the FBI, but now the FAA is giving this new data to try and really disincentivize people from doing this.

The problem here is that folks can really get caught relatively easily. You don't want to do this. You can blind pilots during the most critical time that they're flying down low takeoff or landing to $11,000 fine if the FAA catches you and it is a felony, it could land you with jail time.

TAPPER: Should it be more of a fine?

MUNTEAN: I mean, totally.

TAPPER: I mean -- $11,000 for almost blinding a pilot?

MUNTEAN: It sounds pretty cheap. That's only for the first offense. Some people have been fined up to $38,000. Of course, then there's the jail time and then also the lawyer fees. So it really does add up.

But there should be a bigger penalty here. It's very, very dangerous. And I hear from pilots on Twitter, on X all the time saying this keeps happening to them. People are reaching out to me personally to try and put the word out there.

TAPPER: Yeah, well, stop being idiots, everybody.

Pete Muntean, thanks so much.

Coming up, a former executive at one of the nations largest health insurance companies. What made him quit? Sounds a lot like what has so many people outraged with the entire health industry? Stay with us.

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[16:50:53]

TAPPER: In our national lead, we are now hearing from a one time health care industry insider sharing what led him to resign from one of the country's biggest health insurance companies. This after outrage at the industry exploded in the wake of the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

Wendell Potter, who worked in corporate communications at Cigna, has a new opinion piece in the New York Times on what he witnessed as a health insurance executive that made him quit.

Wendell, thanks for joining us.

You write about the fight for a seriously ill 17-year-old to get life saving care. What happened that led you to leave the industry?

WENDELL POTTER, FORMER VP FOR CORPORATE COMMUNICATIONS, CIGNA: It was -- it was the use of something that's referred to as prior authorization. It's become something that health insurance companies are using even more frequently and aggressively than back then. Seventeen-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan had leukemia. She needed a liver transplant. She was really quite sick.

But Cigna, at the very last minute, as the surgery was about to take place, decided it wouldn't pay for the transplant. And the family raised a big stink, and it became a big PR problem for the company. And Cigna relented. But sadly, so much time passed that Nataline got sicker. And she -- she died just a few hours after Cigna changed -- changed its mind.

This happens day in and day out, and I wanted to make sure that people have an understanding that this that was that was the case, that, really resonated with the media. A lot of media attention. But every day there are people in this country who face delays and denials of care, their lives are shortened in many cases because of this. And it's all because over the last 30 years, our insurance industry has become for profit, it wasn't that way even as recently as the mid- 1990s.

But now, these companies are beholden to Wall Street. And as a consequence of that, they are making us pay a lot more out of our own pockets before our coverage kicks in. And they're second guessing our doctors and standing between us and our doctors. And unfortunately, so many people are not getting the care that they need.

TAPPER: You also write about a consumerism strategy employed by the company. Explain that.

POTTER: I -- one of the things I was expected to do was to try to persuade the media, the public, politicians, employers, that the American public needed to have more skin in the game. We needed to pay more for our health care, not just through our premiums, but through our out of our own pockets.

Consumerism was a euphemism to get people to think that, Americans were clamoring for this kind of a health insurance plan that makes us pay out of our own pockets more before our coverage will become effective. It was never true. But we waged this intense propaganda and lobbying campaign, to the point that today most people are in these high deductible plans.

Consumerism was just a euphemism for moving millions and millions of Americans as quickly as possible into high deductible plans so that insurance companies wouldn't have to pay as many claims. We would be on the hook for more and more of our health care costs.

TAPPER: So you left Cigna, and now you've taken up advocacy for more affordable health care. What is it that policymakers and these health care companies, health insurance companies, need to do, in your view?

POTTER: Well, they need to change the way they do business. They need to be less beholden to Wall Street, Wall Street or the financial analysts and institutional investors are their top stakeholder. That needs to change.

They need to have a refocus and focus more on the patient. They've moved far away from that, despite the term consumerism. It was never about consumers. It was never about patients.

So these companies really have to change, but more likely they're going to be forced to change by lawmakers in Washington and the state capitals. I think employers are going to step up because employers are beginning to realize they've been taken to the cleaners.

[16:55:09]

So I think it's inevitable. And the reaction that we've seen since the tragic assassination of Brian Thompson -- Brian Thompson, the UnitedHealthcare executive, the outpouring of rage, I think, is capturing the attention of policy makers and the media, certainly, but also employers. I think we will see that this out of this tragic event, there may be some, some positive developments that force this industry to change its business practices.

TAPPER: Wendell Potter, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

First on CNN today, the secret vote reported here first on CNN. The House Ethics Committee is ready to release its report on Matt Gaetz, the lawmaker who tried to force a vote to get that report released weeks ago, is going to join us next with his reaction.

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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, stranded in space. The two astronauts who have been stuck on the International Space Station for months are facing another delay.