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The Lead with Jake Tapper
House Ethics Panel Could Soon Release Matt Gaetz Report; Rep. Sean Casten, (D-IL), Is Interviewed About Matt Gaetz Report, Spending Bill; Sources: Trump Calling Speaker Johnson's Spending Bill "Bad"; Trump, Musk & Vance Blast Speaker Johnson Over Massive Bill; Legal Experts Debate Whether Terrorism Charges Will Hold; Legal Expert Debate Whether Terrorism Charges Will Hold; NASA's Astronauts Will Wait Even Longer To Return; Rep. Jared Golden (D-ME) and Rep. Marie Gluesenkamp Perez (D-WA), Is Interviewed About Trump, Musk & Vance Blast Speaker Johnson Over Massive Bill. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired December 18, 2024 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.
This hour, stranded in space, the two astronauts who have been stuck on the International Space Station for months are facing another delay. Why? What are the major concerns? And is NASA confident they can safely bring them home? I'm going to ask the man who spent more than a year aboard the International Space Station.
Plus, we're just days away from the TikTok ban going into effect in the U.S. But now the nation's highest court says it's going to take the case and the justices could make a decision before that crucial deadline.
And a secret vote and a stark reversal on Capitol Hill. Multiple sources telling CNN that the House Ethics Committee will release its report into former Congressman Matt Gaetz within days despite voting not to release the results just a few weeks ago. The report would mark the end of a years long probe into numerous allegations against Congressman Gaetz, including whether he engaged in sexual misconduct or used illicit drugs, allegations Gaetz repeatedly and to this day denies.
But we're going to start this hour with breaking news on Capitol Hill where it appears a deal to avoid a government shutdown is hitting some major roadblocks. Let's get straight to CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol.
Manu, what are you hearing from House Republicans?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a conservative revolt has essentially torpedoed Mike Johnson's plans, a delicately negotiated compromise between the speaker of the House and congressional leaders to keep the government open until mid-March. This negotiation had been going on for months. It was unveiled late last night in an effort to avoid a government shutdown that would occur after 11:59 p.m. on Friday night. But because of a number of provisions in this bill, Republicans, particularly on the right conservative members, are furious at some of the deals that were cut with Democrats in order to get this across the finish line. They're also concerned about the lack of time they had to review it.
Now, all day long, Democrats, Donald Trump has said very little. He's been silent about this bill, amid this growing concern on the right. People like Elon Musk have come out in opposition to this plan. And just moments ago, Donald Trump said he too was opposed to the plan. And he added a huge complication on top of it.
He is calling for Congress to raise the national debt limit as well as keep the government open, tie that all together and get that done by Friday. That is going to be an enormous challenge given the difficulty it takes for Congress to deal with the national debt limit, something that they were thinking about. They hadn't even discussed or planned to punt that until next year. But in this statement that he just put out with Vice President-elect J.D. Vance, they said the most foolish thing inept, the most foolish and inept thing ever done by congressional Republicans was allowing our country to hit the debt ceiling in 2025. It was a mistake and is now something that must be addressed.
They go on to bash the details in this proposal. And they go on to say increasing the debt limit is not great. We'd rather do it on Biden's watch. They say if Democrats won't cooperate on the debt ceiling now, what makes you think they would do it in June during our administration? There was a belief that the debt limit could -- they would have to deal with it by middle of next year.
Yes, perhaps by June, which is why Congress hasn't even discussed that. They just wanted to avoid a government shutdown. And Jake, as we know, a debt limit, for they dealt with that last year, it took them about two months or so to cut a deal to raise the national debt limit and it would expire next year. But now Trump wants to add this on top of all of everything else, which leads Congress at a loss. It's unclear, Jake, how they can avert a shutdown.
How could they get Trump on the same page? And time is running out. Jake.
TAPPER: And Manu Raju, thank you so much.
Let's turn now to the story on the House Ethics Committee secretly voting to release its investigation into Matt Gaetz. CNN's Alayna Treene is near Trump's Mar-a-Lago in West Palm Beach.
And Alayna, you and Manu and CNN Sarah Ferris broke the story. Tell us what you learned about how this reversal went down and why one or more Republicans ultimately decided to go against the public wishes of Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Jake, I mean, this secret vote that they held earlier this month to publicly release this report is a stunning reversal from what they decided in November when really they were split among party lines, five and five Republicans and Democrats, about whether or not to release it. Well, now that has changed. And this is going to be made public, we're told, after the final votes of this Congress are cast and members are on their way home for the holiday.
Now, I think to get your question is what changed? One of the key things that changed is that Matt Gaetz is no longer under consideration to be Donald Trump's attorney general pick. Remember, when this first post happen last month, Gaetz was still under consideration and meeting with senators about whether he could get confirmed to be Donald Trump's attorney general. I think that there was a lot of pressure, of course, around what Republicans would do, but also whether more could come out about the allegations that have surrounded Matt Gaetz for years now, including allegations of sexual misconduct, of sleeping with underage women, of illicit drug use, the list goes on. But now we know -- actually, I'll go back to that.
[17:05:07]
We know that Matt Gaetz, at the time when Donald Trump announced him to be his attorney general pick, had abruptly resigned from Congress. A lot of people thought that that was a sign that he wanted to keep this report under wraps because as we know, a lot of times these House Ethics reports, they don't normally release them when it relates to a former member of Congress. Of course, we're seeing that kind of anomaly here with what the committee has decided. But the difference is now, he is not planning on returning to Congress. He is not going to be in Donald Trump's administration, as far as we know.
He is instead planning to join One America News Network in January. All to say things have changed behind the scenes for Matt Gaetz. I think what's clear, though, is that despite him leaving Congress and no longer planning to serve in a Trump second term, he is still a big player in Republican politics. I know that he still talks repeatedly with those close to Donald Trump, with many of his allies, and he's still could have a future in Republican politics. I think there's no question, though, that potentially whatever is in this report could be very explosive and potentially damaging for those future endeavors.
Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Alayna Treene, thank you so much.
Let's bring in Democrat from Illinois, Congressman Sean Casten. Earlier this month, Congressman Casten is the one who brought forth a resolution that forced a full House vote on the report. That vote failed in part because only one Republican, Congressman Tom McClintock of California, voted with the Democrats to release the report.
Congressman, you called this welcome news today. What do you think the American people are going to learn once the report is released?
REP. SEAN CASTEN (D-IL): Well, what I hope they learn is that we hold ourselves in the House to a higher standard. The point here is not to throw Mr. Gaetz or anybody under the bus. It's to say that when there's these serious, credible allegations of sexual misconduct, drug use, that we don't let people brush under the rug just from resigning.
And I do just want to -- I want to clarify one thing in your prior remarks or the report you just had, there's lots of evidence of members losing elections and the Ethics Committee not continuing reports. There's a much smaller number of members resigning and not having those reports continued. And in fact, the preponderance of times when members have resigned, the reports have continued. And so this is about the House doing what it's always done and making sure that this information does become public.
TAPPER: So Gaetz is denying the allegations again. And he posted on X earlier today that people have suggested he should show up at Congress, January 3rd, take the oath for the next Congress. He was reelected. And then he said he should, quote, "file a privileged motion to expose every MeToo settlement paid using public funds, even of former members," unquote. What's your response to that?
CASTEN: I think this is someone who's desperate for attention. I am fairly certain if you look at the sequence of events in Florida, there has always been -- already been official notice in Florida of the election they have filed. I think there's -- vote by mail ballots have already been sent out for the new candidates in this election. And they started that clock, if you'll recall, because Governor DeSantis wanted to get the clock going so that the seat could be filled. So, I think this is Matt Gaetz talking to people on Twitter about something that's not actually possible.
TAPPER: But what about theoretically, should those be released? I mean, if there are members of Congress who settled MeToo settlements with taxpayer dollars, is that something that the taxpayers have a right to know about?
CASTEN: Understand that the Ethics Committee is not an adjudicatory body. There are allegations in the Ethics Committee all the time.
If there's any member who was accused of having sex with a 17-year-old girl and was under ethics investigation that -- my goodness, I don't care what the party is. Like, let's make sure we get some clarity on that. But it's also important that the Ethics Committee's work is done in a private fashion. We're not just releasing things willy-nilly for political purposes.
And again, I'd go back, four members of Congress resigned while under ethics investigation over four years. Two Democrats, two Republicans. That was never partisan until a month ago.
TAPPER: Turning to other major news on the Hill, the spending bill. Now a joint statement by Trump and Vice President-elect Vance is blaming Democrats for threatening to shut down the government. But they're essentially asking Republican House Speaker Johnson to change course on something. He's put weeks into this compromise with Democrats. What do you think is going to happen?
CASTEN: I think it's really disappointing. And I'm trying to be as polite as I can to spend as much time negotiating as we have. And realize the person you're negotiating with is not actually the decision maker. The Republicans have not passed a funding bill during the entire two years that they have controlled the House. We've been running on continuing resolutions, funding at levels that the Democrats set when were last in charge. That's political malpractice. But they have not passed any of the continuing resolutions, except with virtually every Democratic vote and a minority of the Republican votes every single time. That speaks volumes to the dysfunction in the Republican caucus. But let's be very clear, we have not shut down the government while Johnson was running it because the Democrats consistently bailed Johnson out.
[17:10:07]
For Trump now to tank this, I mean, we have two unelected billionaires who are telling the American people going into Christmas that the government's going to be shut down, that our air traffic controllers won't be operating, that TSA won't be there to help you at the airports you're traveling to see your loved ones. Really?
TAPPER: Who are the -- I mean, Elon Musk is an unelected billionaire. Who's the other one?
CASTEN: Well, Donald Trump, obviously not in office yet. I don't know where --
TAPPER: He was elected, though.
CASTEN: Yes. Fair enough. Fair enough.
TAPPER: OK.
CASTEN: But nonetheless, this is not -- these people are not currently in power, right? We are a co-equal branch. We have a deal to fund the government. We have a deal to make sure we don't shut down. If we're co-equal, why are we deferring to people who are not currently in power?
TAPPER: So Democratic leaders -- or House leaders are meeting right now, Hakeem Jeffries and Pete Aguilar and others to figure out what to do next, Kathleen Clark, what do you think Democrats should do?
CASTEN: I think we need to see what comes out of that meeting and what they're offering. I know that we had a deal as of an hour ago.
TAPPER: Democratic Congressman --
CASTEN: I don't know what the deal is now.
TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Sean Casten, thank you so much. Good to see you.
CASTEN: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: The TikTok ban is headed to the U.S. Supreme Court, but is there enough time for the Supremes to make a decision before the January deadline? Plus, Luigi Mangione returns to court tomorrow morning for not one, but two hearings. How soon could he be extradited to New York from Pennsylvania? That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:15:21]
TAPPER: Back to our politics lead, a major power struggle playing out right now. President-elect Donald Trump, Vice President-elect J.D. Vance and billionaire Elon Musk versus the Republican Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. It's currently threatening to derail major legislation to keep the government running. Let's bring in CNN's Kristen Holmes and CNN's Jeff Zeleny.
Kristen, walk us through what has happened and changed in just the last hour or so.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it actually started as we saw Elon Musk, who now has become one of the mouthpieces for Donald Trump, his --
TAPPER: Kind of (inaudible).
HOLMES: -- (inaudible) force.
TAPPER: As if Donald Trump weren't enough of an (inaudible).
HOLMES: Well, I mean, now he's the first buddy, as he calls it, but he becomes the voice of Donald Trump. And he started attacking lawmakers in Congress saying that they should not support the CR bill, that anyone who supported it was not going to be reelected. The same kind of threats that we've heard him make before, particularly in the last couple of months since Donald Trump was elected.
After that, Donald Trump came out and said that he did not support the bill. It was pretty clear once we saw what Elon Musk was doing, that he was not going to. He's been trashing the bill. He's been saying that it is a bad bill. And what I am told is that on Capitol Hill, word of his opposition of the bill has spread very quickly. And now there are discussions about how they're actually going to handle this moving forward because they did not realize that he was going to come out opposed to this bill as strongly as he did. He actually issued a statement just moments ago saying that he was against the bill.
TAPPER: So just to bring people a little bit up to speed, the deal is this, there is a bill to fund the government. House Republicans always have -- almost always have a significant number from their group that will not vote for any government spending bill. So if you're the Republican speaker of the House, you need to get Democratic votes. And the way you get Democratic votes is you cut a deal with the Democrats. And that's what Speaker Johnson was attempting to do because there aren't enough Republicans who will vote for a Republican bill, they have to have a bipartisan bill.
Let's bring in Manu Raju. You're talking to lawmakers right now about this. What are you hearing?
RAJU: Yes. Look, this is a major, major complication to avoid a government shutdown by the end of the day on Friday in order to -- in order -- that was one congresswoman just walked by, Anna Paulina Luna. There's reporters that are chasing her down the hallway because she just walked out of the speaker's office. I overheard her saying that there are -- she doesn't know any other details. And that's actually going to be -- that's actually the theme at the moment.
People really don't know what is next, Jake. They don't know if a government shutdown will be -- can be avoided. They don't know how serious Donald Trump's demand is. This 11th hour demand to raise the national debt limit, that is an incredibly complicated negotiation, typically takes months and months to resolve. He wants it resolved within 48 hours.
He said the Democrats need to supply the votes to get this over the finish line. Well, without any Democratic provisions in there. But Democrats, if they were to even agree to that, would want a whole host of things, given the fact that they control the United States Senate, they're going to need their votes in to get it out of the United States House. And there's a Democrat in the White House. They're going to need a bipartisan, bicameral deal.
And the deal that was cut that Trump is now just bashing, it was weeks of negotiation for them to even get to the point to keep the government open until mid-March. That includes a whole host of issues. Billions of dollars of disaster relief, aid to farmers, a bunch of some measures that have actually been blasted by both sides of the aisle, including a congressional pay raise. But there's a whole host of measures in a 1500 page bill that took weeks and weeks to negotiate by Trump's statement there, has completely undercut this entire process.
Now, two quick key reactions that I got from members that I just spoke to Senator Dick Durbin, he's the number two Senate Democrat, I just asked him about this 11th hour demand of Donald Trump to raise the national debt limit along with avoiding a government shutdown by the end of the day on Friday. He said this would be an incredibly complex negotiation to get done by then. He also said that anything needs to be done has to be done in a bipartisan basis. Meaning what Donald Trump is saying for Democrats, just do whatever Republicans want is not going to be enough.
And then Tom Cole, who's the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, helped negotiate this spending deal, I asked him about these demands. And all he said, Jake, was, I don't know. I don't know. He really has no clear path on how this gets resolved.
TAPPER: And Jeff, first of all, I suspect this is -- I mean, it's -- this is always what we go through when there's a Republican speaker because there's just always enough Republicans that just refuse to vote for any spending bill. But I suspect this kind of chaos, Speaker Johnson being undermined by Donald Trump and Elon Musk is kind of what we're going to have over the next four years.
[17:20:08]
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It's extraordinary. We're getting a look -- an early look at what was likely to be not playing out until January right now in December. I mean, this is not even Donald Trump's government yet. But the question is it's not just the Democrats who are asking for other things. Over the weekend, I'm told that this was beginning to have problems because the farm state Republicans wanted more farm aid.
TAPPER: Yes.
ZELENY: So they added some into that. So Republicans are also asking for more things. But all of these negotiations were going on when Speaker Johnson, Leader Thune and President-elect Trump were watching the Army Navy football game on Saturday, they were in the same chamber. These negotiations were going on. People thought that they could get this across the line.
But Elon Musk's tweet this morning as Kristen was talking about, it came pretty early this morning. It took the president-elected and --
TAPPER: There it is.
ZELENY: -- vice president-elect --
TAPPER: Any member of the House or Senate who votes for this outrageous spending bill deserves to be voted out in two years.
ZELENY: That was one of them. But he had an earlier one about four hours or so before that. He's been going sort of throughout. So, he now is the one who has changed the equation, so an unelected, very important ally. But he's just reflecting the sentiment that was already out there from -- some House Republicans here.
So this is a mess, quite frankly. And it's different than these usual spending fights because now he's added the via debt ceiling. So is the government going to shut down? I doubt it. But, boy, a preview of things to come.
TAPPER: Yes. Yes. The MAGA base is upset and they have the ear of Elon Musk who then tweets it. And then Trump and J.D. Vance hear Elon, and this is where we are.
HOLMES: And the question is --
ZELENY: And Senator Romney said earlier, he told Manu, he said, we need some guidance here from the president-elect on this.
HOLMES: Right.
ZELENY: And I guess now we have it.
HOLMES: And of course the question is, the chicken or the egg, right? Was -- did Trump already tell Elon that? Did Elon say it first and then Trump got on board? I mean, that's the question --
ZELENY: Right.
HOLMES: -- is who's in control?
TAPPER: Who's in control is indeed the question.
ZELENY: Not Speaker Johnson.
TAPPER: Not Speaker Johnson is the answer, at least at this hour. This is turning into a very busy afternoon. We're going to be monitoring all of it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:26:18]
TAPPER: In our national lead, the suspected CEO shooter, Luigi Mangione, is just hours away from returning to court for two hearings in Pennsylvania. One of those is focused on his possible extradition to New York City where prosecutors yesterday charged him with 11 counts including murder as an act of terrorism and first degree murder. CNN's Danny Freeman is outside the court in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania where Mangione will appear tomorrow.
Danny, what can we expect tomorrow?
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, tomorrow morning this normally quiet courthouse in Hollidaysburg. The county seat of Blair County is just going to be absolutely buzzing with local media, with national media, with local police, state police, likely the NYPD and of course Luigi Mangione will be showing up here himself. Like you said, he has those two hearings, the first one kicking off at 8:30. That's for those Pennsylvania state charges. A reminder for folks, two felonies including a gun charge and then three misdemeanors.
And then immediately after he's going to be having an extradition hearing again, potentially weighing extradition to New York for those much serious murder charges.
Now, the hearing is still on as of now, but Mangione's attorney indicated to CNN's Kara Scannell that he does not plan to fight extradition at this time. Which means, frankly Jake, he could be on his way back to New York by sometime tomorrow, perhaps as early as the afternoon.
Meanwhile, Jake, we have updated information on some of the efforts the outside world has made to contact Mangione since he's been in prison here in Pennsylvania. Per a spokesperson, for the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, as of this afternoon, Mangione has received 158 deposits into his prison commissary account. Also, as of this afternoon, he's received 40 e-mails and 53 pieces of mail. That's notable because that's up considerably from the six pieces of mail that he had received as we reported yesterday. But still, the only visitors he's had to date has been from his attorneys.
Jake, this area of Pennsylvania is going to be swamped and likely chaotic tomorrow, but this chapter of this part of the Mangione story in Pennsylvania likely to conclude tomorrow as well. Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Danny Freeman in Pennsylvania, thanks so much.
The gun charge and a false ID charge in Pennsylvania are pretty minor compared to the 11 charges that Mangione faces in New York, including one count of first degree murder and two counts of second degree murder, one of which is charged as a killing in the act of terrorism. Here now, Law Professor Anna Cominsky, and CNN Legal Analyst Jennifer Rodgers.
Take a listen to Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg explaining his decision to charge Mangione with first degree murder as an act of terrorism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Think about the proof in the case, some of the writings. I'm not going to get into too much of that, but and the actual reaction. You know, in the middle of midtown, the beginning of a busy day, tourists, commuters, business people, the intent of was to sow terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Anna, you've said that those charges are unusual because, quote, "this isn't traditionally how we think of terrorism," unquote. Explain.
ANNA COMINSKY, PROFESSOR OF LAW, NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL: Yes, so what's important here, Jake, is what we're trying to figure out is was the intention here to kill or was the intention here to kill an individual and to also cause fear in others? And so one of the things that we have to look at, one of the things that it's going to be considered by the jury is, were these intended consequences or unintended consequences? And that's really yet to be seen.
TAPPER: And Jen, you worked with Alvin Bragg in the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, do you think the evidence so far supports Bragg's current charges against him? And what does this tell you about how Alvin Bragg is approaching this case?
[17:30:02]
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it's interesting. I mean, it's obviously an aggressive charge. It's the top charge that he could possibly bring. So it shows me that they're really going after this full throttle. You know, listen, Alvin's terrific. He's got a great group of people. They clearly know their legal theory. To Anna's point, they know the argument that they're going to make to the jury. It's just not so obvious to me how they're going to prove that intent to intimidate or coerce the civilian population. So we'll have to see how that plays out.
TAPPER: Rebecca Weiner, who is the Deputy Commissioner of the NYPD's Intelligence and Counterterrorism Unit, said that the terrorism statute was, quote, borne out in threats against other CEOs. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REBECCA WEINER, NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPUTY COMMISSIONER: The intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, which is, of course, at the root of our state terrorism statute, is very much borne out in this reaction, and for good reason. We've had a torrent of online threats. We've had real world activity that the police commissioner flagged, which is abhorrent, and it causes concern.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Anna, do you think it's going to be difficult for prosecutors to prove that those were the intended consequences of Thompson's murder?
COMINSKY: So, based on what we know now, I -- I think they do have an uphill battle. You know, we're not privy yet to some of the writings that were -- they've referred to. We're certainly not privy to any information that they have may have received from the accused at this point or anything that they've received from others about his alleged intent. But this is difficult, to prove both the intent to kill and also this intent to cause terror. Not just what may have occurred after, but actually an intent that that occur.
TAPPER: Jennifer, what do you think?
RODGERS: Yes, I agree. And it's also an interesting question. I mean, some of what this reaction raised is this notion of jury nullification. What will the jury do in the box with this and turned into a hero because of what he did. So it kind of flips it on its head a little bit. Terrorism is about making everyone fearful of you and your actions, when the public reaction really seems to be the opposite of that. They're kind of cheering him on, which is both bizarre and kind of leads you to believe, if you're the prosecutor, I might have a problem with one or more jurors in this case, particularly pushing a really, really aggressive charge like the first degree murder charge.
TAPPER: All right, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.
We're following breaking news On Capitol Hill, where a massive deal to keep the U.S. Federal government open is now seriously at risk with Donald Trump and Elon Musk the ones throwing wrenches into the works. We'll have more of that -- more on that in a moment.
Plus, their trip to space was scheduled to last about a week. And now two astronauts who launched in June are facing yet another delay before being able to come home. What is going on aboard the International Space Station? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- astronauts and the first crewed flight test.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[17:36:50]
BUTCH WILMORE, ASTRONAUT: Ninety percent of our training is preparing for the unexpected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Well, speaking of unexpected, in our Out of This World Lead, astronauts Suni Williams and Butch Wilmore continue to face the unexpected. The veteran astronauts went up to the International Space Station or ISS back in June for what was meant to be just over a week- long trip to test out Boeing's Starliner spacecraft.
It's now December, you might have noticed, and their return is still up in the air as NASA announced a return spacecraft will not arrive until at least late March 2025 after the Starliner experienced mechanical issues. I want to bring in former NASA astronaut Scott Kelly. If he looks familiar, his twin brother is Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. I appreciate the beard that I'm sure is helpful to those in your family. Scott, you've spent a year in space. How can Suni and Butch mentally and physically prepare for what they're going through right now, including another four months?
SCOTT KELLY, RETIRED NASA ASTRONAUT: You know, Suni and Butch are experienced Navy test pilots. I've known them for decades before were all astronauts. And, you know, this is something we prepare for. I heard earlier, you know, Butch saying that 90 percent of our training is about, you know, what -- what you train for the stuff that's unlikely, right?
And we understand that, you know, we're never in control of everything in our lives. And we have to focus on the stuff we can control. And they're professionals. And I think they're very well prepared for this.
TAPPER: This is unexpectedly becoming one of the longest single space flights for NASA with Williams and Wilmore planning to stay in space for at least 280 days.
KELLY: Yes, I mean, when you're expecting an eight day trip and it gets extended like this, certainly it's a little bit of shock -- of a shock. I think it takes a little bit to -- to get used to. But, you know, in our cases astronauts, we know the very unexpected could happen at any moment. And you know, we just have to hate to say like just kind of deal with it, you know, but that's what they're doing and they're doing it very well.
TAPPER: Is the attitude when you're an astronaut kind of look, the alternate is much more severe than just being up here for that long and there's more work we can do and more benefit to being here. I mean, is there -- is it kind of just built in the bright side idea?
KELLY: Yes, I think you always have to look on the bright side. In this case, you know, they're able to do, you know, science to two extra crew members for a while and they're, you know, filling in for, you know, the crew members that they couldn't send up there because of the, you know, the issues they had with the -- the Boeing spacecraft. So, you know, they're well prepared. They're -- they're willing to do the work. I mean, this isn't like, you know, we're heading to Antarctica here tomorrow. And this isn't like Ernest Shackleton in 1914 to 1916 where -- where his crew got stranded for over two years. You know, this is much different. They actually have a lifeboat, a spacecraft, a Dragon spacecraft that they can come home in, in an emergency. And I think people need to realize that.
[17:40:03]
So it's not like they've been abandoned. It's more like or they're stuck. It's more like their mission has just been extended because, you know, we need people on the space station to -- to take care of it, deal with the emergencies, deal with the science. So, you know, they have to stay there a little longer.
TAPPER: So you just alluded to my next question, which is why are we reaching you in Buenos Aires? What are you doing in Buenos Aires?
KELLY: So we're taking a group of 200 -- over 200 people to Antarctica. You know, I -- I've heard recently, you know, everyone should go to Antarctica once, but no one should go twice. We certainly have to conserve the place. But I think it's important for people to explore, to have these experiences -- experiences firsthand. And we're going with this organization called Seed to Space that embraces this kind of, you know, mentality, you know, to elevate the conversation, elevate the human experience.
We actually have two Ukrainian defenders on board with us. We're going to go to the Ukrainian Research Station while we're there. We're going to go to Elephant Island where -- where Shackleton was a big hero of mine, but he was marooned there and his crew -- more of his crew there, were -- were marooned -- marooned there for many months. So very exciting and you know, place I wanted to see for -- for a really long time.
TAPPER: Are you bringing videographers? That sounds like something we'd love to have you come back and talk to us about when you -- when you return?
KELLY: Yes, we have videographers. We have William Shatner, we have Neil deGrasse Tyson, we have Ann Curry, Celine Cousteau, Jacques Cousteau's granddaughter, among others and -- and all the other people. So pretty exciting. I would love to come back on and talk about it.
TAPPER: All right, Scott, come back and -- and -- and -- and we'd love to -- we'd love to see what you saw. Appreciate it and -- and best of luck.
KELLY: Thank you. Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: The major drama playing out on Capitol Hill right now with a government shutdown looming, a spending bill in limo, Donald Trump and Elon Musk lobbying against this Republican-led effort. I'll be joined by two members of Congress live in studio, next.
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[17:46:26]
TAPPER: Back to the breaking news. In our Politics Lead, the huge power play by America's most prominent elected and unelected political figures as Republicans debate their plan to try to avoid a federal government shutdown. With a huge Friday deadline looming, House Speaker Johnson's plan with Democrats is now in serious peril. President-elect Trump and Vice President Vance and even Elon Musk are joining the fray, slamming this bill, this compromise legislation online.
I'm joined now by two Democratic lawmakers, Congressman Jared Golden, Democrat of Maine, and Marie Gluesenkamp Perez, a Democrat of Washington. I want to get to why I invited you here in a second, but first, just your reaction. What should Democrats do given the fact that Trump and the Republicans are now opposing this compromise that -- that Johnson reached with Hakeem Jeffries and others?
REP. JARED GOLDEN (D-ME): You know -- you know, the Republicans, they're in the majority in the House, right?
TAPPER: Right.
GOLDEN: So I think that's a good question for Speaker Mike Johnson right now.
TAPPER: For Speaker Johnson.
GOLDEN: You know, obviously I wasn't going to vote for what they were putting forward here and we're going to talk about that. But, you know, it seems to me like keeping it simple at this point. We still got time to get it right here. And if we got to stay through Christmas, so be it. We got to do the right thing for the country.
TAPPER: So let's talk about why I did invite you here if that's OK, which is that you two are very vocally opposed to the part of the plan that includes a pay raise for members of Congress. Currently, I think the average member of Congress makes $174,000 a year. And you don't want members of Congress to get a raise. Why not?
REP. MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ (D-WA): Why should they? I mean, I --
TAPPER: Why should we, right?
GLUESENKAMP PEREZ: -- like, I -- I don't know many families that would look at 174 and say it's not enough to raise a family on and have a good living. And I think it's, you know, I think it's important that we are a representative body that are living in the same reality as everyone else, which is where you can't just, like, wave a wand and, you know, have a COLA, have a pay raise. It doesn't make sense to me. And -- and I -- I don't, you know, I think doesn't make sense to the people in my community that, you know, you can just give yourself a pay raise when you feel like it.
TAPPER: What's the proposed pay raise? How much is it from 174,000 to do, you know?
GOLDEN: Yes, the COLA would be about $6,600, take you up to about 180,000.
TAPPER: COLA is cost of living allowance.
GOLDEN: Yes, yes, that's right. It's a cost of living adjustment. But that's a pretty big pay raise though.
TAPPER: $6,000 more, $6,000 pay raise. You -- and you -- why do you disagree? Why do you not want it in there?
GOLDEN: I've opposed this since I came to Congress six years ago.
TAPPER: Yes.
GOLDEN: I've been the sponsor or co-sponsor of the amendment that they stripped out that blocks and prevents this from happening in the first place. Almost every time that we've had a budget while I've been in Congress, and that's to put -- this is a bipartisan provision usually, Jake, but like, I think I have, like, three points that, you know, I want to make.
First of all, this job is about public service, not about getting paid or how much you get paid. We should be thinking, what can we do as a Congress to raise the wages of the American people? We should be trying to pass legislation to lower healthcare premiums, not the opposite of what this bill does, which is using taxpayer dollars to raise our wages and setting ourselves up with a better, more generous healthcare package.
Almost every member of Congress with their individual salary of $174,000 is near the median household income -- household income of their district. More than half of the Congress with just their single salary is sitting around the top 20 percent of household income in their district. That's sitting quite pretty as far as I'm concerned. I think Marie is absolutely right. Like most families would -- would almost do anything, you know.
[17:50:11]
Like, they -- they want that kind of salary and -- and would think that, of course, they could live quite comfortably on -- on that. I can't think of anything at this point in time many things that would be more unpopular than this. I told, like, one reporter today, I honestly think it would be more acceptable to the American people if we hit them in the big toe with a hammer, than take a vote to raise our own pay when we have about 20 percent approval rating.
TAPPER: Yes. What are you hearing from your fellow members of Congress? I mean, this can't be -- this can't be popular among your colleagues. I know that's not why you two specifically even ran for Congress, to be popular with other members of Congress, but are they pushing back? Are they saying, what are you doing?
GLUESENKAMP PEREZ: People make the argument that, you know, if you don't raise the pay, then good people won't run for office. I think that's not correct at all. I think that this job is about serving our communities. It's, you know, it's about representing our communities and the experience of our communities, you know. And I think that vastly underestimates the patriotism and capacity and quality of thinking that's out there. If you want to get rich, go into the private sector. I don't know.
TAPPER: And -- and have you been getting pushback from any of your fellow Democrats about, you know, you're -- you're trying to stand in the way of me getting a raise and I need the money. And if you don't -- if you don't raise, if you don't vote to allow this to happen, it's only going to be millionaires that can afford to be in Congress. I mean, I'm sure you've heard that argument.
GOLDEN: Now while I'm in Congress and I'm nowhere near being a millionaire. So, and like Marie said, like, we came here to do public service. I think my colleagues did, too. I just don't agree with them that this is necessary or deserved.
TAPPER: And what -- what do you -- what kind of feedback are you getting from Democratic leaders, from Hakeem Jeffries and the others?
GLUESENKAMP PEREZ: I haven't spoken with Hakeem about this. For me, this is about representing the values and priorities of my community. And so that's -- that's where I take my cues. That's -- that's my baseline.
TAPPER: All right. Congresswoman Gluesenkamp Perez and Congressman Golden from Maine and Washington State, two of the most interesting members of Congress that we have today. Thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it.
Up Next, the doctor is in and here to answer your questions about brain rot. What is it? How does it happen? How worried should we all be? Stay with us.
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[17:56:41]
TAPPER: Our Health Lead now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is On Call here to answer your questions on our attachment to our devices and whether or not these things that we scroll through can cause what's called brain rot, brain rot. Sanjay, let's start with a question from Ann. We saw a lot of versions of this question. What do you do if you think you or your child is addicted to scrolling?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, big question. Got a lot of these. And I'll tell you that I'm answering in part as a doctor and part as a journalist, but mostly as a dad of three teenage girls. Something you're familiar with as well. Big topic of conversation in our household. First thing to point out, addiction may not be the right word here because strategy for addiction sometimes is abstinence. And as I think you alluded to, Jake, very hard to be abstinent from something that we're so dependent on. But there's no -- no doubt there can be problematic use when it's starting to interfere with your activities of daily living, with your sleep, with your grades if you're a kid, these are real issues. A couple things that, you know, in our reporting really jumped out at me.
One is that oftentimes teenagers are using this as a tool of self- soothing or self-care. So really trying to understand the fundamental cause here as opposed to just the symptoms is important. Why -- why are -- why is your kid on the phone so much? I think it's an important question to ask. More practically speaking, there are three things you can always ask yourself or ask your kid to ask themselves before they pick up their phone. Three basic questions, what for? Why -- what am I doing this for? Why right now? What else could I be doing instead?
Kind of important, Jake, because it kind of brings your brain back online for a second, makes you question why you're doing this, and maybe sort of reduces the chance you'll go down rabbit holes. Second of all, I'll just tell you could set time limits on these phones for your kids if -- if this problematic use is a real concern. You can set the amount of time they can be on the phone and also the specific times. So for example, if it's the nighttime and they're not getting sleep, you can turn some of those apps off at night. That's a -- that's another tool.
TAPPER: Stan from Korea says he's 63. He's heard that playing games such as Sudoku or Scrabble or Solitaire are good for keeping his brain sharp. And he wonders, does playing these games online for a few hours contribute to the brain rot that you addressed?
GUPTA: OK. This -- this is an important question. First of all, the way that they defined brain rot was excessive consumption of low quality content both those criteria. So it -- it sounds like Stan's, you know, consuming some higher quality content. So that's good. That's -- that's in the -- in the plus side of the column. One thing to point out, though, doing those sorts of games, whether they be online or on paper, typically make you better at doing those games.
So do a lot of crossword puzzles. You get better at crossword puzzles. If you're really trying to sharpen your brain, and I wrote an entire book about this, there are other things you should probably be doing in real life. And I'll tell you, Jake, exercise and movement is probably the thing that has the most evidence behind it. Doing things that are different, getting outside your comfort zone, doing things with a motor component to it, like playing an instrument, playing a sport, those are probably going to better for your brain overall, Jake.
[18:00:00]
TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Always good to see you.
Any moment, we expect Democratic leaders to hold a news conference on Capitol Hill. They -- they just met behind closed doors after President-elect Donald Trump and Elon Musk and Vice President-elect J.D. Vance threw a huge wrench into the compromise bill to avoid a government shutdown. Stay with CNN all night for more on this breaking news and I will see you tomorrow. The news continues on CNN with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer right next door in a place I like to call The Situation Room.
