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The Lead with Jake Tapper
World Leaders Reject Trump's Gaza Takeover Plan; Bondi Sworn In As Attorney General Amid DOJ Turmoil; Democrats Struggle To Unify To Push Back On Trump's Sweeping Changes; Trump Targets Agencies In Push To Shrink Government; Crews Hope To Finish Pulling Plane Parts From River By Tomorrow. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 05, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:01]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Evan Perez --
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Does that -- I mean, that's sort of -- it's like an interesting answer.
SANCHEZ: Yeah.
KEILAR: But it doesn't really tell you how they could not abuse that discretion.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. That's the big concern.
SANCHEZ: Evan Perez, thanks so much for the reporting.
And thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. We have about 15 more seconds to kill before we toss it over to "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER." A lot is going on. I'm sure he's going to have the latest headlines for you.
KEILAR: That's right. And more on Trump's executive order, which he is still in the process of doing a big ceremony for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beautiful.
(MUSIC)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Are Republicans on board with President Trump's plans to turn Gaza into the Riviera.
THE LEAD starts right now.
An onslaught of questions for the president who suggested a takeover of Gaza. He called for U.S. troops to even possibly move in, and millions of Palestinians who live there to move out.
Today, what is the White House saying about the president's plans? What about the Congress?
The chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee will be here. Plus, forced out. USAID employees around the world will be placed on
leave in a matter of days, ordered to return to the United States if they are abroad. Ahead, a man who used to run the federal agency, who calls efforts to shut it down illegal, and even criminal.
And a marathon of storms, nearly nonstop winter weather is about to hit the same parts of the U.S. for days and days to come. What to expect ahead?
Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
Today, new reaction from world leaders, lawmakers and even Palestinians after Trump's shocking comments last night -- last night, saying the U.S., quote, will take over, unquote, Gaza.
Trump unveiled his, quote, long term ownership, unquote, and redevelopment plan for the 141-square-mile territory, much of which has been reduced to rubble after 15 months of war between Israel and Hamas, follow -- following Hamas attack on October 7th, 2023.
So how does President Trump plan to get approximately 2 million Palestinians to leave Gaza? The White House this afternoon, reiterating that Trump did not commit to putting U.S. boots on the ground while also not ruling it out. It's not clear what the details of this plan are, or if details exist at all. Mr. Trump, after all, said the Gaza strip could become the Riviera of the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I envision a world, people living there, the world's people. I think you'll make that into an international, unbelievable place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The world's people, he said.
Today, Secretary of State Marco Rubio gave a different definition of the world's people, saying that President Trump meant that Gaza residents would leave only temporarily during reconstruction. But the bigger question is any of this plan feasible and will he stick with it? We don't know.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports that President Trump, at least for now, is serious about it. Mr. Trump, also serious about changing the size of the federal government. He's trying to do so at lightning speed. Trump is signing more executive orders this afternoon. He just signed one banning transgender women from competing in women's sports, and in his effort to shrink the government, Mr. Trump, now offering buyouts to the entire workforce of the central intelligence agency or CIA, the CIA, which gathers information around the world to try to protect the U.S. and Americans from those who would do us harm.
The CIA now the first major national security agency to be included in this larger government employee buyout offer. CIA employees have until tomorrow to decide whether they're going to
take the offer, knowing that the Trump administration plans to lay off a large number of federal workers who do not take this offer. This is only a fraction of the change already unfolding in Trump's second administration. Some people are not happy about any of this.
One movement of such people hosting 50 protests in 50 states, trying to highlight and oppose moves by President Trump. This video showing multiple protests taking place in cities including Denver, Austin, Texas and here in Washington, D.C.
Let's go to CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House.
And, Jeff, you were in the White House briefing room today as the press secretary tried to defend and tried to explain Mr. Trump's proposal to take over Gaza. Tell us more. What did you have to ask her?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, so much for the White House to explain. In fact, the administration has been scrambling really throughout the day to catch up to what the president said last evening. Administration officials have been on Capitol Hill answering questions from some skeptical Republicans, to say the least.
But one question hanging over all of this is the president's really about-face, about the idea of sending U.S. forces to the region. He has campaigned against never-ending wars. In his view, he has talked about it repeatedly. Of course, one of the reasons he rose to power in the first place was he was the strongest voice of criticism against the Bush plan more than a decade ago, of course.
[16:05:06]
But we asked the White House press secretary today about why he is not ruling out sending U.S. troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So, I think the president is very good when he's making deals and negotiating not to rule out anything because he wants to preserve that leverage in negotiations. And so I think that's what he's doing here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENY: So not to rule out anything for leverage. She was clear that the president is not committing to send troops to the region, but would not rule that out.
But, Jake, one thing that was different in the language from the White House press secretary and other officials, they talked about the -- the temporary resettlement of Palestinians. Last night, the president talked about the permit resettlement. So that, of course, is one small difference here.
Now, this is largely just a gambit to get a discussion going. There's no doubt that this president has been frustrated with the idea of no progress in the Middle East. But, Jake, one thing missing out of all these conversations is history. And the bottom line that Palestinians want to remain in their homeland -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.
So how is President Trump's plan going over with the people of Gaza?
As CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports, not so well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the ruins of Gaza, Sami Ramadan (ph) is determined to clear the rubble where his home once stood, and he is determined to stay.
We will not leave. Occupation and colonization will vanish and we will stay, he says. As long as we live on this land, we will stay. We will die here.
Like so many here, he swiftly rejected President Trump's proposal to permanently displace Gaza's 2 million Palestinians in favor of a U.S. takeover, and the president's rationale for doing so.
TRUMP: What's the alternative? Go where? There's no other alternative. If they had an alternative, they'd much rather not go back to Gaza and live in a beautiful alternative that's safe.
DIAMOND: But Palestinians say they are undeterred by the scale of the destruction.
I don't care what Trump says or anyone else. Look, my house is completely destroyed. There's not even a roof. But here I am. I am staying.
Jordan and Egypt, the two countries Trump is pushing to accept Palestinian refugees, reiterating that Palestinians must be able to remain in Gaza amid what will be a years-long reconstruction. While Trump says his proposal is a humanitarian one, human rights experts call it a crime against humanity.
NOURA ERAKAT, HUMAN RIGHTS ATTORNEY & PROFESSOR, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: Their removal is equivalent to their forced exile, permanent and forced exile, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the denial of their return, which is already a Palestinian condition.
DIAMOND: So there's no question in your mind that what President Trump is suggesting here is ethnic cleansing.
ERAKAT: There should be no question in anybody's mind. Trump is saying it himself.
DIAMOND: Trump's proposal is being heralded on the right wing of Israeli politics, where lawmakers have long pushed for the forcible displacement of Palestinians. BEZALEL SMOTRICH, ISRAELI FINANCE MINISTER: Those who carried out the
most horrific massacre on our land will find themselves losing their land forever. Now, with God's help, we will work to permanently bury the dangerous idea of a Palestinian state.
DIAMOND: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calling Trump's proposal worth pursuing. A broad smile making clear he's thrilled by Trump's return.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND: And, Jake, the White House is now walking back, President Trump's proposal for the permanent displacement of Palestinians, saying that it would only be temporary. But his comments have already rippled through this region and will surely have an impact on what we expected to start this week. And that was the resumption of negotiations between Israel and Hamas to extend the current ceasefire.
Still, no clarity amid this hubbub about the Israeli prime minister's position and whether or not he will actually push to extend the six- week ceasefire -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv for us, thanks so much.
Let's bring in some expert voices -- voices on this.
Jamil, let me start with you. You served in the George W. Bush administration as associate counsel to the president. So, most of the 2 million people living in Gaza would not want to leave. I think that's fair to say.
If Trump or someone were to try to forcefully remove them, is there anyone who could or would stop them, and would that even be legal under international law?
JAMIL JAFFER, FOUNDER & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY INSTITUTE, GOERGE MASON UNIVERSITY SCALIA LAW SCHOOL: Well, you know, Jake, this is a difficult question, as you know. We've seen what happens when even the Israelis try to remove their own settlers from Gaza when the settlements were dismantled eight, ten years ago.
And so, this is a hard process, trying to physically remove people will come at a huge cost. It will take a huge amount of U.S. troops and other troops to come in and do this. It will be a forced removal. It will not be pretty. It's hard to imagine this going anything but poorly.
TAPPER: And, Arwa, after your time as a CNN correspondent, as I'm sure our viewers know, you did a lot of humanitarian work in Gaza, focusing on children after this awful war broke out.
[16:10:07]
Explain to us what it might look like logistically if all of these Palestinians in Gaza were just to leave. ARWA DAMON, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, INTERNATIONAL NETWORK FOR AID,
RELIEF AND ASSISTANCE: I mean, it's so much harder than just saying, look. here's the door. Please walk through it, the depth of attachment to the land. The fact that, you know, many of them wouldn't be able to leave because of the psychological impact that that would have, that it would mean that they are living through exactly what their grandparents and great grandparents lived through.
It's something that is impossible to really comprehend and grasp. And if you do try to fast forward and think about what these images would -- would actually look like -- I mean, we're talking about the elderly, mothers, children being marched out at gunpoint, very similar to what we saw happening in 1948 and 1967, ending up who knows where, living out in the desert somewhere with very little access to humanitarian assistance.
I mean, the very fact that this is being proposed by the United States of America is something that is, you know, egregious in and of itself, with President Trump openly saying that the U.S. is planning to carry out what would amount to a war crime, which would be the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. It's quite mind blowing.
TAPPER: Barak Ravid, you have deep sources as correspondent for "Axios". Do you think this could this proposal, President Trump saying this, could this endanger the fragile ceasefire and hostage deal? Or is it possibly a gambit of sorts by the president?
BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST: Well, Jake, if you if you ask Prime Minister Netanyahu, he would tell you, you know, maybe Trump saying this is sort of like a deterrent for Hamas to continue the hostage deal because they'll say, if we don't continue the hostage deal, then Trump will, you know, take action to displace Palestinians from Gaza.
But people who are involved in the negotiations themselves, Israeli negotiators are very concerned that, you know, this is a distraction from the negotiations at a very sensitive point. The negotiations over the second phase of the deal has just started, and this is really a distraction that could, you know, could also push Hamas to the point that they say, you know what? Why should we continue to implement phase A of the deal if we know what is coming in a few weeks?
TAPPER: Jamil, today, Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks, who's the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, he told CNN that Trump's plan for Gaza is not only bad for Gaza, it could be dangerous for the United States. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): It does not make us safer. The fact of the matter is, when you start using that kind of talk, it probably makes us less safe. It, you know, raises and has other individuals who, you know, would love to continue to terrorize around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What do you think of that, Jamil?
JAFFER: Well, you know, I don't often agree with Gregory Meeks, but I think he makes a good point here, which is this is a really difficult situation that Donald Trump is walking himself into. President Trump is walking himself into, I think at the end of the day, though, you have to ask yourself, is this just another Trump gambit? Does something so crazy on the table that you might -- that might make the make something else look like the middle ground, as opposed to a more radical idea?
So that may be what's going on here. But I will say, if the U.S. intends to go in, forcefully remove people putting troops on the ground, this will make Afghanistan and Joe Biden's disaster there look like amateur hour.
TAPPER: Arwa, listen to how the White House press secretary today tried to defend this plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: This is an uninhabitable place for human beings. Do you really think that that families can live their dream in a region that looks like this, with no running water, no electricity? And the president made this decision with a humanitarian heart for all people in the region.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So what would you say to her and those who argue that it's a good thing for the U.S. to -- to clean up this devastation because it's an uninhabitable place, as it is?
JAFFER: Well, look, I mean, if were --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: No, no, FOPR Arwa sorry. I'm sorry. Jamil. That was for Arwa, I apologize.
Arwa?
JAFFER: Apologies.
DAMON: All right. I mean, look, Gaza is a demolition zone. You know, the Trump administration is not wrong in that. And do most people want to see Gaza turn into the Riviera? Yes, absolutely. But a Riviera for the people of Gaza, for Palestinians.
And if the right of return were not such a murky issue right now, we would be having a very different conversation. But you cannot be telling people that this is a humane solution when the undertone of that is, we're going to kick you off your land and you're never going to be able to come back.
[16:15:07] For Palestinians to even begin to find this remotely palatable, there needs to be an ironclad, U.S.-backed guarantee that they will be allowed to return to their homes. Otherwise, we are going to see history repeat itself. Despite the fact that President Trump says he's trying to break these cycles, because what he's proposing right now is at the very heart, the core of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The core of it is the forced displacement of Palestinians, the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and the constant deprivation of the right to return. This is what that plan is pitching.
TAPPER: Okay. Arwa, thanks so much. Appreciate it. And Jamil and Barak, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Is there any kind of tolerance in Congress for putting U.S. boots on the ground in Gaza? I'm going to talk to the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee next.
Plus, word of yet another incident involving passenger planes, this time a taxiing airliner clipped a parked one. What is the FAA saying?
Stay with us.
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[16:20:06]
TAPPER: President Trump's dramatic announcement and break from decades of U.S. policy declaring, we, quote, will take over, unquote. Gaza and make it the Riviera of the Middle East. It's not only drawing criticism, its raising serious questions about how is this going to happen.
Here now, the new chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Republican congressman and U.S. Army veteran Brian Mast of Florida.
Mr. Chairman, thanks so much, and congratulations on your new position.
Help us understand how the U.S. taking over Gaza is going to work.
REP. BRIAN MAST (R-FL): There are no details. Yet on what this could. Exactly look like. And the point is, is that all options are on the table. That is the point.
All options are on the table. Look at the world from a different vantage point, instead of where everybody has always been looking. Look for new solutions. Instead of just saying, this is what's been. This is the way it's always been done and so we're just going to continue down that path.
TAPPER: Does this mean sending U.S. troops to occupy Gaza and rebuild it? Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said this afternoon, quote, we're prepared to look at all options, unquote. Would you be comfortable with that if that's what President Trump says is needed? MAST: I think, again, you take what he said. All options are always on
the table for an important reason. Let me not just say that in ambiguity because that leaves every foreign intelligence agency guessing what's going to happen, which is good for America's national security.
Personally, do I want to see American troops on the ground under any circumstance other than the fact that there are still Americans being held and there's an American coming to get them? Aside from that being the situation, I don't want to see troops on the ground personally.
TAPPER: So, your -- your Democratic counterpart on the committee, Congressman Gregory Meeks, says it doesn't make the United States safer for this idea to -- to be out there because it actually puts a target on Americans. If individuals think that the U.S. is planning on ridding Gaza of Palestinians and taking it over. What's your response to that?
MAST: I think it begs a very important question about what is the Gaza that we are dealing with? Are we dealing with a Gaza that's totally rid of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Lions Den, Fatah, other terrorist organizations, and dealing with a group of people that are willing to accept that there will an independent and Jewish state, that they're willing to say they're done with kidnappings, bombings, bus bombings, cafe bombings, terrorism, you name it, that's been conducted year after year, decade after decade? Are they done with that? And are they willing to have this unconditional surrender?
Are you dealing with that kind of Gaza and people that are just what are always said, innocent civilians that want to go out there and live in peace, that are have been dislocated because of the war that has been going on and are now showing up back to neighborhoods that they haven't been in for a while. But because of the infestation of terrorists are nothing more than rubble right now. So they really don't have a choice but to relocate. Those are important circumstances for anybody to recognize.
TAPPER: So it sounds like you're saying this is almost like a negotiating position. President Trump puts this out there. Maybe I'm reading into it. And if so, I apologize. President Trump puts this out there.
You talk about how Gaza could be if all those terrorist groups are no longer there, and if the Palestinian people in Gaza were willing to live next door to a Jewish state in peace and cooperation. Is that a constructive way for me to look at this, and for viewers and voters out there to think of this?
MAST: I think it's the important way to look at it, because in absence of that being the state of Gaza, there is not an American partner there in any way, shape or form.
TAPPER: So you kind of alluded to this earlier when you talked about your preference for U.S. troops to not -- for there not to be boots on the ground, but how many people who voted for Donald Trump do you think, thought, I'm voting this way? And when I vote this way, it's possible that troops are going to be sent to Gaza, or quite the opposite. I'm voting for Donald Trump because he's not going to get us involved in foreign wars.
MAST: I think you, no matter what, see that commitment and that promise executed from President Trump. There are always negotiating positions and there's always ambiguity again, for the purposes of national security. But what you can count on with President Trump, first of all, first and foremost, he will always put America first, America's national security first. If it doesn't meet that bar, it's not going to be an action that's executed.
TAPPER: So you served honorably in Afghanistan, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on a second, a second subject on USAID.
Trump seems to be shutting down USAID. As you know, it's in the Ronald Reagan building. President Reagan spoke a lot about the need for there to be soft power out there. And foreign aid is very important. Do you think removing critical foreign aid that stabilizes countries and builds goodwill will make the U.S. more safe? I understand that there might be problems with individual USAID programs, and maybe you don't have a problem with Marco Rubio taking over it, but the general idea of foreign aid, do you think that makes us safer?
[16:25:07]
MAST: What you have going on -- and you're not going to find very many that are more critical of USAID than myself, is an agency that was out there spending $15 million to give condoms to the Taliban. That's a real thing, or half $1 million to teach Indonesian coffee makers on how to be more gender friendly.
And what -- I'm just giving you a couple examples to say this wasn't the exception. This was the rule of what was going on. And if you want things to -- to still move forward in terms of aid, you can have a more streamlined system that's more accountable, better command and control by having that fall directly under Secretary Rubio right now, instead of the individuals that were in there since January 20th, literally hiding things, burning documents, and making sure that they had every availability to lie to Congress and everybody else about the programs that they were actually doing, because that's what they did to me for the last two years as foreign affairs oversight chairman. That comes to an end.
If those things weren't being conducted, you might have a different looking USAID today. But because that was taking place, this was the only option in how to right that ship.
TAPPER: Can you send me the background and backup information for this $50 million in condoms to the Taliban? Because I've never --
MAST: Fifteen.
TAPPER: Fifteen?
MAST: Yes, 100 percent, $15 million to the Taliban for condoms and contraceptives, 100 percent --
TAPPER: Send it to me and I'll post it on --
MAST: $3 million to go to the Caribbean just for being, quote, LGBTQ. I could give you pages and pages of lists if you want.
TAPPER: Do it, do it. I'll text you right after the commercial break.
MAST: We put it in a video so you can see it in video. I replied to all my Democrat colleagues that were out there saying these were Republican lies to say, here's about a five minute video of a whole bunch of stuff that's been going on. You can reference that, too.
TAPPER: Yeah, I'm excited to see the documentation. I'm not saying it's true or false. I don't know, but I'd love to see it.
MAST: I'm telling you, it's true.
TAPPER: Okay. The chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Republican Congressman Brian Mast of Florida, a veteran, thank you so much. Appreciate it, sir. I hope you'll come on a lot and talk to us about foreign affairs.
MAST: Wish you the best.
TAPPER: Appreciate it.
MAST: Take care.
TAPPER: Coming up, what President Trump said today about his brand new attorney general, Pam Bondi, and what he believes about her chances of remaining impartial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: President Trump, I've known you for many, many years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[16:31:34]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: Thank you, President Trump. I've known you for many, many years. And I will not let you down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That is the brand new U.S. attorney general, Pam Bondi, in the Oval Office today, just moments after she was sworn in by conservative Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Attorney General Bondi was confirmed receiving the support of every Republican senator and the vote of Democratic Senator John Fetterman from the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
In her confirmation hearing, Bondi said she would end the, quote, partisanship the weaponization at the Justice Department. Her arrival comes after the employment details for more than 5,000 FBI agents who worked on January 6th investigations were turned over to the Justice Department yesterday, and the firing of more than a dozen prosecutors who worked on cases related to January 6th and President Trump just last week.
Let's bring in former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent, Democratic strategist Alencia Johnson, and Mike Dubke, former Trump White House communications director.
So let's start by taking a listen to what President Trump said today at Attorney General Bondi swearing in ceremony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I know I'm supposed to say she's going to be totally impartial with respect to Democrats, and I think she will be as impartial as a person can be. I'm not sure if there's a possibility of totally, but she's going to be as total as you can get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Mr. Dent, your thoughts?
CHARLIE DENT (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I don't -- I don't think I'd like to be Pam Bondi right now or Marco Rubio to have to try to defend what's happening within the government. There seems to be total disarray with the shuttering of USAID, the purge at the FBI, the J6 clemency. I just can't imagine how you can operate under this environment knowing that your boss is setting out to be vindictive and seeking retribution, and your job is to try to manage him and do the job as best you can while obeying the law.
So I -- I don't know how she manages this or frankly, some of these other appointees because they have really stepped into a terrible quagmire.
TAPPER: Mike, do you not see a contradiction between the idea of saying she is going to free the Department of Justice of politics and bias at the same time that DOJ is asking for the names of every FBI agent or employee who worked on any January 6th related case?
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, which we're seeing right now is chaos with a purpose. It is -- there are so many different angles that are happening right now. It's very difficult to cover each of them. I could see where she could go forward and be -- you've got a president of the United States that feels like he was persecuted throughout the last four years by a Department of Justice.
So to your point on Pam Bondi, she's got a really tough road to hoe. She's got to deal with that while at the same time, there's a belief by many in the Republican Party, there is a politicalization of the FBI and others.
So how do you -- how do you balance both of those? That's what she's going to have to do. Is it fair to your question? It's what she's been tasked to accomplish.
TAPPER: Alencia?
ALENCIA JOHNSON, FORMER BIDEN CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISOR: Well, and I think Donald Trump appointed her to be loyal to his agenda, even though in the hearing, she kept pushing back when Democratic senators kept asking her about, you know, being his arm for retribution. She kept saying, were not going to deal with these hypotheticals.
But so if you were actually going to uphold the standards of the Department of Justice, she should be concerned about those 5,000 employees who have their information out there.
[16:35:02]
However, the way that Trump is talking and the way that he has embraced her and how she was rammed through, it is hard to believe that she's going to be impartial and actually not do the very thing that he says he wants to get rid of and actually weaponize the DOJ against all of Trump's -- the people who have criticized President Trump.
TAPPER: So let's turn to Capitol Hill because former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger has been critical of Democrats for not pushing back more forcefully on some of President Trump's more sweeping actions, such as cutting funding to USAID.
Today, Democratic lawmakers rallied outside the Capitol. Here are two of those Democrats. Virginia's two Democratic senators. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): For those of you who say you want something done, I'll go back to it. States, courts, Congress, politics.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): We're only going to break this when we have Republicans willing to stand up as well. Put the pressure not just on us, but on everyone, every elected official level. That's the only way we're going to win this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Are you inspired?
JOHNSON: Well, those are my two senators. I will say --
TAPPER: Very nice gentleman, very nice gentleman.
JOHNSON: Very interesting, though, because Mark Warner, this is a little bit frustrating. He actually voted for some of Trump's nominees. And so, the frustration that the base of the party is having -- a
majority of the party is having is that some Democrats are going along and that some Democrats are trying to play by the rule books when the reality is there's a convicted felon as the president. And so the old rules actually don't work anymore. They need to be a bit more bold.
The other piece that I will say, and I have been on the record saying this, Democrats like to -- both parties do, but especially Democrats are like to prop up people based on how long they've been in office versus actually putting forward the voices that will break through and actually inspire --
TAPPER: Who would you like to see out there?
JOHNSON: I mean, I would love to see more of AOC and the Jasmine Crockett. I know people have their qualms with how they govern, but they break through and they pierce through in a political society that listens to a Donald Trump, that is this cultural phenomenon.
But we also have AGs. We also have governors, and they need to be the ones that are out there. We got to do what Donald Trump was doing when Biden was in office. And that is actually have rallies every week speak directly to voters and get actually to his base about some of the things that they're doing.
TAPPER: What do you think?
DENT: Well, Congress needs to stand up for its institutional prerogatives. It's article one powers are being trampled right now. I mean --
TAPPER: They don't seem to care, though. The Republicans in charge of the House and Senate, they don't seem to care that as far as I can tell.
DENT: They better care, because someday there could be a Democratic president. And could you imagine if a Democratic president said, hey, I'm going to shutter ICE or CBP, or I'm not going to fund Democratic. Oh my goodness, the human rights violations everywhere.
I mean, they can't -- the point is, a president cannot and certainly Elon Musk cannot -- they cannot end an agency or a department. They can't do it.
Congress must do that. These programs are and departments are authorized and funded by the Congress. And the payouts for these retiring employees are resigning employees. The governments not funded through September.
TAPPER: Mike, so let me just ask you, so Ezra Klein has a theory, a liberal pundit and reporter, that the way that Trump is doing all this actually is suggestive of weakness, not strength, because if it was strength, he could be getting rid of USAID or doing whatever with the workforce. Legislatively, the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the White House. But because he's doing it by fiat, it suggests that he doesn't have the power. What do you make, you disagree?
DUBKE: I think you're missing -- yes, I do disagree.
TAPPER: OK.
DUBKE: You're missing the biggest point of this which is --
TAPPER: Well, Ezra, not me, yes.
DUBKE: Which is I appreciate that.
Speed. This is all about speed right now. And they are pushing hard on this. I am shocked the Democrats don't have a game plan. They really don't.
We're about to rediscover the third branch of government, the judiciary, at some point, I don't know when, but that is the whole point of this. It's speed and going after it.
TAPPER: Getting it to the courts.
DUBKE: And getting it -- and well, not -- yeah, getting it to the courts and not letting them sort it out. And then we'll see where we're at. But that's going to be two years from now.
TAPPER: Interesting.
Thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.
My next guest ran USAID under a different Republican administration. He's calling out these new efforts by the Trump White House targeting the agency and its missions overseas.
Stay with us.
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[16:43:46]
TAPPER: And we're back with the world lead.
My next guest says the Trump administration's move to shut down the United States Agency for International Development, known as USAID, is illegal, outrageous and criminal.
Andrew Natsios is a lifelong Republican who ran USAID under President George W. Bush.
Andrew, thanks for joining us.
I want you to take a listen to what then-President Ronald Reagan said to critics of foreign aid. This is back in 1987.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You know the excuses. We can't afford foreign aid anymore or we're wasting money pouring it into these poor countries, or we can't buy friends. Other countries just take the money and dislike us for giving it. Well, all these excuses are just that excuses. And they're dead wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What is the immediate impact that were going to see from USAID being shuttered?
ANDREW NATSIOS, FORMER HEAD OF USAID UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, because there are so many areas that aid works in, it would take me hours to describe it. It's having a cascading effect across the world. There are health clinics around the world that are treating people for HIV/AIDS, for measles, for children who get measles, 50 percent of them die in the developing world.
[16:45:01]
We had a campaign to eradicate polio that's been stopped. We've been working with other countries to do that. We worked with CDC to eliminate smallpox. There has been no smallpox in the world anywhere since, I believe, 1972, because the AID took the leadership in that.
These campaigns all of a sudden stopped because the aid missions are all -- all the offices are being called back to Washington. They're going to shut down the AID missions. Those missions, by the way, are an early warning system for disease.
AID set up a system for collecting data on disease outbreaks in 90 countries in the world. And that's our first line of defense. You don't start a -- stop a pandemic at the border of the United States. You stop it at the source of the pandemic.
There's an Ebola outbreak of a new variety of extremely dangerous variety of Ebola in Uganda. There's a large AIDS mission there with a lot of health staff. We have, I think, 300 or 400 health officers who have advanced degrees in epidemiology or public health. You want those people out there not at the border, but at the potential source of these outbreaks.
TAPPER: So --
NATSIOS: Secondly --
TAPPER: Okay, go ahead sir.
NATSIOS: Food -- food is -- well, when there's not enough food and prices go up. There's political instability. The Arab Spring was largely driven by massive increases in food prices.
AID is the first provider of humanitarian assistance in the world. If we shut down all these programs, the risk of uprisings, of coup d'etat rises dramatically.
TAPPER: So --
NATSIOS: There's been a huge drop in famine deaths since the mid-1980s because of AID.
TAPPER: So we had on the new chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Brian Mast from Florida, and he started talking. When I asked him about this, he started talking about programs that he thought were outrageous wastes of taxpayer dollars. One of them that he cited was $15 million for condoms to the Taliban. He started talking about LGBT.
NATSIOS: Let me just stop you there.
TAPPER: Well, just -- you get -- you get the idea.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Go ahead.
NATSIOS: AID does not give condoms to political movements. It gives it to health clinics. All right?
I think what's happened is that is, Musk's people who are a bunch of young techies, they don't know anything about development, have been distorting what AID does.
Now, are there programs that AID is doing that I think should be eliminated immediately? Yes. When I took over from the Clinton administration, I had a review very quietly.
I didn't do it in the newspapers. I didn't threaten anybody. I didn't call for the shutdown of all AID missions in the field. We did quietly. We did it over several weeks. We shut down scores of programs. I can tell you some -- they're worse than the ones you just mentioned.
When the Democrats control AID, they move the agency to the left. When the Republicans take control, they move it to the right. The career people do what they're told to do.
Do you think they -- they did this on their own? They did this because the White House told them to do it. So the thing is that I think is amusing is that Republicans are accusing AID of not listening to the foreign policy advice of the president of the United States.
Well, the foreign policy advice was coming from President Biden, who's on the left, who put up the LGBTQ flag in all the American embassies, not AID did, the embassies did. Should we abolish the State Department because of that?
I mean, this -- this doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense to attack AID for this. When the Defense Department was doing the same thing, so was the State Department.
TAPPER: So your argument is don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Change it, move it to the right if you want, but don't close the agency because it does incredible good for the world.
Andrew Natsios, we'll have you back on to talk more about this issue. It's not going away anytime soon. You're a learned guest. We appreciate it.
Another health scare today for Republican Senator Mitch McConnell. Two falls for him at the Capitol. What were learning about the 82-year- old's condition ahead?
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[16:53:10]
TAPPER: In our national lead, a new incident involving passenger planes, this time at the Sea-Tac Airport near Seattle. A taxiing Japan Airlines plane clipped the tail of a parked jet. This latest incident comes one week after the crash here in Washington, D.C. that killed 67 people.
CNN's aviation correspondent Pete Muntean is with me now.
Pete, let's start with the D.C. crash. Are you learning anything new about recovery efforts?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, the recovery will hold some really key and critical details, Jake. We know now from unified command, they just sent an update saying they will have all of the major components of American Airlines Flight 5342 out of the Potomac River tomorrow. Although recovering all of the Black Hawk wreckage will still take some time.
Just moments ago, we saw a flatbed truck full of parts that were brought ashore today, leave the shoreline, the eastern perimeter here at National Airport, bound for a hangar. The secure location where NTSB investigators will essentially lay out all of the parts of wreckage and try and look and key into those forensic details.
We know they've made some really critical and key discoveries. The right wing of American 5342, also, the center section of the fuselage, a lot of the left wing and the left fuselage, also a lot of the cockpit and the traffic collision avoidance system computer, which could hold some really key details here.
Of course, so many eyes on this crash right now. And we've also heard the NTSB really clearing up a discrepancy now saying that the radar scopes here in the tower showed the Black Hawk helicopter at 300 feet of altitude, even though the helicopter corridor here, the altitude restriction, there is 200 feet of altitude.
The NTSB and FAA briefing key members of Congress tomorrow.
TAPPER: And, Pete, tell us about this new incident today in Seattle, where a plane, one plane clipped another. Is everyone okay? And what led to this?
[16:55:04] MUNTEAN: Well, this was a Japan Airlines flight taxiing. It appears the wingtip hit the tail of a Delta Airlines flight. Of course, this is notable now because everybody is jumpy because of what happened here a week ago. Thankfully, though, nobody heard essentially the aviation equivalent of a fender bender.
TAPPER: Pete Muntean, thanks so much.
In our politics lead, Senator Mitch McConnell, the former Republican leader, fell at least twice today at the U.S. Capitol. The 82-year-old former Republican leader was later seen in a wheelchair that his spokesperson said was precautionary. The spokesperson said. The senator from Kentucky is otherwise fine.
Texas Governor Greg Abbott just met with President Trump at the White House. We're trying to get him over to the CNN camera. We'll ask him about that conversation, next.
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