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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Defends Comments Blasting Federal Judges; Trump: "I Always Abide By The Courts' But Will Appeal"; Top Senate Dem Accuses Patel Of Directing Purge Of FBI Employees; Sen. Dick Durbin, (D-IL), Is Interviewed About Kash Patel; Trump Fires Chair Of Board Responsible For Hearing Appeals From Fired Federal Workers; Trump & Musk Defend Aggressive Efforts To Overhaul Govt.; U.S. Hit By One Of The Most Intense Flu Seasons In 15 Years. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 11, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Head of the company behind ChatGPT. Well, it goes back further than you may think and it may be all about the Benjamins.

Plus, this is the most severe flu season in the United States in at least 15 years. Where is it most active? What's your family's risk? CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here to break it all down.

Leading this hour, however, President Trump and first buddy Elon Musk in the Oval Office moments ago defending their plans to drastically reshape and disrupt the operations of the government. The president claiming that these changes are exactly why he was elected and that his administration has already found millions of dollars in fraud, although we have not yet seen any public proof of any of that. The president is also facing questions about whether he can guarantee that the federal workers who took his so called buyout offer will actually get paid through September and whether there are any checks and balances when it comes to Musk and his power. Let's get right to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House.

And Kaitlan, another big topic in the Oval about whether President Trump would respect the judge's rulings.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Jake, it was a remarkable scene playing out there in the Oval Office. You never always know what to expect when reporters go inside as they were for this executive order, this signing that opened up, I should note, just moments before the reporters were actually in the room. But when they did, they saw the president's top aides and Elon Musk standing there alongside the Resolute desk. That's his son who was also inside the room with them defending DOGE and defending the work that he's doing and also pledging to be transparent.

And Jake, of course, this comes amid major questions that have been facing this White House in the last 48 hours as we've seen the federal judiciary step in for some of the executive orders that Trump has signed at that very desk there with the pens that you can see on the Resolute desk and the questions of whether or not the White House is going to abide by those judges who in some cases have temporarily blocked what the president is trying to do here with Elon Musk. And listen to what Trump was said when he was asked by a reporter if he will follow what the judges say here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I always abide by the courts and then I'll have to appeal it. But then what he's done is he slowed down the momentum and it gives crooked people more time to cover up the books. You know, if a person's crooked and they get caught, other people see that and all Of a sudden it becomes harder later on. So, yes, the answer is I always abide by the courts, always abide by them and will appeal. But appeals take a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So the president there, Jake, saying he will appeal whatever these judges decide here. That, of course, is the proper legal recourse for any step that they take where a judge steps in and they have been -- and they don't agree with the judge and don't like what the judge has had to say when it comes to either the 14th Amendment or USAID or any of the other orders that have been blocked on a temporary basis as judges are reviewing them.

And as he was sitting there, Jake, with Elon Musk, they were talking about the work that Elon Musk is doing, who he is answering to, who he's working with, and also how they are staying on top of potential conflicts of interest given Elon Musk is the world's richest man and has extensive contracts, for example, with the Pentagon, which the President said he has given him the authority to go and review their spending as well. Elon Musk talked about the fact that essentially he is looking at these conflicts himself and will note if there are conflicts of interest that he believes he has. The president weighed in on that as well. Not really defining the mechanisms though, of what that accountability or what those guardrails are going to look like, Jake. But Elon Musk was defending his work and talking about what he says they have found.

There was one notable comment that he made about the payment and salaries of federal workers. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: We do find it sort of rather odd that, you know, there are quite a few people in the bureaucracy who have ostensibly a salary of a few hundred thousand dollars, but somehow manage to accrue tens of millions of dollars in net worth while they are in that position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So talking there about the salaries and the net worth of certain individuals in the federal government. Also, Jake, of course, you know, there are people who come in and out of government who leave in certain administrations and then later return. That is the Washington way, certainly. But, but Elon Musk talking there about the salaries of these federal workers as he was really giving a broad scope of what they're looking at. Like he didn't -- for example, he did not name any of the federal workers that he was referencing there or the efforts that they have gone.

He did say at one point that he will correct himself when he needs to be corrected or when he says something that's not true. Obviously, we did not see that with some of the claims that they have made until he was confronted with it by reporters inside that moment there in the Oval Office. But, Jake, really, what that also was kind of a show of force between President Trump and one of his top allies who is part of why you're seeing a lot of these judges come in and step in here and say, that is not something you can do or this is something that needs further review. And, of course, the expectation is that Elon Musk is only moving on to other departments as this goes, Jake.

[17:05:04]

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. And, of course, don't miss Kaitlan's show, "The Source." That's tonight and every weekend at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN.

Our legal experts are here. And Jennifer, let me start with you. Let's take a listen to more of Trump just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They handpick a judge and he has certain leanings. I'm not knocking anybody for that. But he has certain leanings and he wants us to stop looking. How do you stop looking? I mean, we've already found it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anybody's saying stop looking. They're saying stop freezing payments, right?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right, Jake. So the Administrative Procedures Act has processes that legally you have to follow if you make changes in how the agencies do business. And so that's really the gripe here that you're taking action without going through the proper processes. So that's what the judge is objecting to and enjoining. And then we'll see on appeal whether the judge is right or wrong.

But that's exactly right.

I'll also note that, you know, if you wanted to keep the government looking for fraud, waste and abuse, you shouldn't have fired 18 inspectors general in the first days of the administration. That's the most efficient and effective way of doing that. And having dismissed them is actually putting a wrench in the internal oversight systems that have worked so well for so many decades.

TAPPER: And Tom Dupree, we obviously heard Trump say he would abide by the judge's orders, which is good news. At the top of the show, we said we -- they were hinting about ignoring them. And now we have President Trump saying no, we would abide them. So constitutional crisis averted for now. But I do want to play something that Speaker Mike Johnson said earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: What they're doing in the executive branch, I've been asked so many times, aren't you uncomfortable with this? No, I'm not. I think that the courts should take a step back and allow these processes to play out. What we're doing is good and right for the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So when federal judges say Trump has failed to carry out their orders, such as the Rhode Island judges ordered unfreeze billions in federal aid, what can those judges do to stop Trump from ignoring their orders? Obviously, they're being appealed, and obviously they're going to be appealed all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court. But does that mean that Trump, since the appellate process is playing out, he can ignore their order?

TOM DUPREE. FORMER PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTY. GENERAL, GW BUSH ADMIN.: No. Unless the judge puts a stay on his or her order, you typically have to comply as soon as it comes out. As far as the tools that a judge has at his or her disposal, there are a few. They can impose contempt sanctions, they can impose fines, they can basically try to up the pressure on the government to comply. That said, at the end of the day, a lot of times these sanctions do require enforcement by federal authorities. I mean, ultimately, the U.S. Marshals Service would be the one who would enforce a lot of what a judge orders.

And the U.S. Marshals Service, of course, is under the control of the president.

But I do want to note two things from today's press conference. Extraordinary it was that, I do think, give some reassurance. Number one, as you noted, Jake, constitutional crisis for now, avoided by the president saying he'll abide by court orders. And the other thing is that he held a press conference.

TAPPER: Yes.

DUPREE: That he held a press conference with Elon Musk there. They took questions from journalists. I mean, it was a good old fashioned press conference. People may not agree with everything that was said, but just as far as strengthening our institutions in the normal way that we as Americans discuss these issues, I thought both of those were positive aspects of what we saw today.

TAPPER: I agree.

Evan, you're learning that judges and even lawyers in the Justice Department are struggling with the sheer speed of what the Trump administration is doing. What are you hearing from them?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, you see that in some of the hearings that the judges are saying, hey, we're putting a pause on here. It's not like they're reject what the president and what Elon Musk are trying to do. And that's one of the things that you saw in that press conference. They're saying, they're saying, you know, that the judges are getting in the way. Well, the problem is that there is possible harm, irreparable harm that could come from just stopping payments.

There are people who depend on services that have already been promised by the government and you can't just stop that. And so, that's one of the things that you see the judges struggling with. The Justice Department, you can see the lawyers in some of these hearings where they believe certain facts that have been told to them and they say this in court and then they learn later that that's not true, that instead of 500 employees, there's actually like 5,000 employees that could be affected by something. And that's a problem for the Justice Department, because if you lose credibility with judges, then you're going to lose overall.

TAPPER: So let's take a little quick trip down memory lane. I'm old enough to remember President Obama outraging Republicans by his promiscuous approach to executive orders. Take a listen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I've got a pen to take executive actions where Congress won't. And I've got a telephone to rally folks around the country on this mission. So then speaker of the House John Boehner seemed to suggest that Obama was overstepping with the, quote, pen and phone approach. Mr. Boehner tweeting, Mr. President, we use the Constitution, hashtag Constitution, to get things done.

[17:10:04]

So, Tom, as somebody who worked under a Republican president, what do you make of this shifting Republican attitude towards executive actions, czars. I've never seen a czar as powerful as Elon Musk outside of the Soviet Union maybe 100 years ago. So, but again, like during the Obama era, czars, horrible executive actions, huge overreach.

DUPREE: Well, and don't forget President Biden's overreach with his executive orders, the student loan forgiveness, various moratorium during the pandemic.

TAPPER: All hammered down by courts.

DUPREE: Yes. And so what we see is, regardless of party, you are going to see presidents become very frustrated with the old fashioned way of making law in the United States, namely sending a bill to Congress, signing it into law. That can't be done anymore, given our politically polarized state. So that's why you see presidents of all political persuasions increasingly resorting to executive orders as a way to basically circumvent, in some cases, the legislative process and accomplish with a stroke of the pen what they couldn't through the cumbersome process.

TAPPER: But let me point out that President Trump's party controls the Senate and the House and the White House and arguably the Supreme Court. I mean, like, he has it all. Obama did not, right? Boehner was a Republican speaker.

DUPREE: Absolutely right. But given the small majority for the Republicans in Congress, in the House at least, it is much more difficult and it is time consuming. What it will take Congress six or nine months to accomplish, President Trump is trying to accomplish with the help of Elon Musk, in a matter of hours. They want to move quickly.

PEREZ: Especially when you have the speaker of the House there saying, we want the president to do this because I don't want to be involved. It's too hard for me to do this.

TAPPER: Yes, well, that's the legislative branch and then you have the judicial branch.

DUPREE: Right.

TAPPER: Pesky.

DUPREE: Pesky.

TAPPER: Those pesky other branches. Thanks to all of you.

New allegations today against President Trump's pick to lead the FBI, Kash Patel. The man making the claims is the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and he's going to join us live next. Plus, what you need to know about the surge of flu cases in the United States and how some schools are dealing with an influx of sick students and teachers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:16:19]

TAPPER: Back with our politics lead. New allegations being made against Trump's director -- Trump's nominee to be FBI Director Kash Patel. Senator Dick Durbin is the top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and he sent a letter to the inspector general at the U.S. Justice Department, one of the few inspectors general that hasn't been fired, alleging sources told him that Patel directed a purge at the FBI before he's been officially confirmed.

Senator Durbin writes, quote, "This alleged misconduct is beyond the pale and must be investigated immediately," unquote. In a statement to CNN, Kash Patel's spokesperson says, quote, "The media is relying on anonymous sources and secondhand gossip to push a false narrative. Kash Patel is a highly qualified national security expert who has been fully transparent with the American people," unquote. The Judiciary Committee is set to vote on Kash Patel's nomination on Thursday.

And Senator Durbin of Illinois joins us now. Senator, thanks for joining us. Have you heard back yet from the Justice Department inspector general about your letter?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): No, I think it will take a day or two before I get a response, but the sooner the better. Listen, we've been in touch with a lot of FBI agents who came to us and want to tell the story of what's happening at this agency. Many of these are career public servants, career law enforcement agents that really take great pride in the FBI. They have never seen anything like this before. A new president comes in and wants to clean the ranks to make sure that anybody who's involved in the January 6th prosecution is removed or at least disclosed publicly, it's never happened.

Can you imagine the morale of the FBI based on that experience?

TAPPER: So you're making this a pretty big accusation against Patel. I mean, you're suggesting that he lied under oath, right? I mean --

DURBIN: Yes.

TAPPER: So what evidence do you have? I understand that you're getting calls from people in the building. What evidence do you have? Are any of these people willing to go on record?

DURBIN: That's the problem. It's credible evidence, but it's not the first time we have to rely on a whistleblower. They understand that if their identity is disclosed, two things are going to happen. First, there'll be every effort by the Trump administration to eliminate their jobs. And second, they exposed to the January 6th thugs who came on the Capitol and anything they might decide to do to them or their families. I mean, it's understandable that they would tell us this in confidence.

TAPPER: But -- so they are saying that he is the one, Kash Patel is the one that orchestrated the purge of FBI officials who have been basically forced out of the FBI. The request for individuals who were involved in any of the arrests of January 6th defendants to fill out questionnaires. They're saying he's the one behind it all?

DURBIN: Follow the dots. Goes from the White House with Stephen Miller, the deputy to the president, to the Acting Attorney General Bove. And the message is, Kash Patel, KP, the initials, wants you to move faster in purging the ranks of the FBI like they've done already in DOJ. This is the day or two days before Patel testifies under oath and on the committee that he's had nothing to do with this. So clearly he's misleading us or worse.

TAPPER: So, I mean, I understand that these individuals are not willing to go on the record, but would they -- I mean, are there any Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee that you trust with the information that these FBI or Justice Department officials could talk to them?

DURBIN: Jake, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Anyone on the Republican side, either on the committee or not on the committee, will at least say, let's pause this for a minute. Let's see what the attorney -- the inspector general comes up with. Let's get this information before us. This is not the only thing with Kash Patel, but it's one of the more serious things and it's very timely because we're considering his nomination this week in the committee.

[17:20:14]

TAPPER: Let me ask, just to play devil's advocate here, if this stuff, if this call for purges is ultimately coming from President Trump, right, there goes Trump to Stephen Miller to Kash Patel or whatever, I mean, according to this theory and these anonymous whistleblowers, isn't -- doesn't the buck stop with Trump? I mean, isn't he the one calling for this? And whoever would be the FBI director would do the same thing?

DURBIN: Harry Truman certainly said it best, the buck stops here when it comes to the President. But the reality is this agenda is being pursued by a lot of people under the President's guidance, and I'm sure that it includes Kash Patel. He's been a loyal, sour soldier for Trump. He's written a book on his loyalty to Trump. And now, of course, Stephen Miller, who's legendary for his loyalty.

I mean, these are names we're all familiar with. And none of the things that have been alleged sound incredible.

TAPPER: So do you have any other mechanism, if you can't find one Republican on the committee to go along with you to delay this? Do you have any mechanism to delay the vote? Is there not any reason to think that Kash Patel likely will not -- I mean, won't he pass, won't he get out of committee, don't you think?

DURBIN: Well, let's see. We don't know because the Republicans have not been tested as to whether or not they think he's competent. The bottom line is this man has no experience leading a law enforcement agency and he's being given a 10-year term, not the ordinary two or four year, 10-year term, to be in charge of some 38,000 FBI agents and supportive staff. This is the most well established law enforcement agency, investigative agency in the world. And to think that they would hand it over to Kash Patel is just incredible based on his lack of experience.

TAPPER: Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, thank you so much.

And we extend an invitation to Kash Patel to come on the show and clear up if there's anything there that the Senator said that Mr. Patel takes issue with. Chairs right here, perfectly warm. Get you a nice cup of coffee, sit down and answer some of our questions.

What President Trump said today about efforts to get the remaining hostages, including Americans, out of Gaza, he's setting a deadline for Hamas. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:26:56]

TAPPER: In our world lead, President Trump's stark new warning to the terrorist group Hamas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They either have him out by Saturday at 12:00 or all bets are off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Trump demanding that all the hostages, the remaining hostages, be released. Trump made that threat during a meeting with the Jordanian King Abdullah II today, saying it's possible that the world could see war resume between Israel and Hamas as soon as Saturday unless all the remaining hostages are released by Hamas. CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now in Tel Aviv, Israel.

Jeremy, you heard President Trump set that deadline. What is the Israeli government, what are the leaders of Hamas saying about it?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, this cease fire between Israel and Hamas really does appear to be hanging by a thread at this moment, certainly in the most precarious position it has been since it came into effect just over three weeks ago. The Israeli prime minister tonight piggybacking off of Trump's ultimatum there, saying that if Hamas does not return hostages by noon on Saturday the cease fire will end. Israeli forces who have already begun to amass in greater numbers along the Gaza border order will return to the fight against Hamas and this time until Hamas is, quote, "completely defeated," in the words of the prime minister.

Now, the prime minister didn't say exactly how many hostages would need to be released, but an Israeli official telling me tonight that the government expects nine living hostages to be released in the next few days if Hamas wants this ceasefire to continue. That's because there are nine living hostages still set to be released in phase one. Another eight deceased hostages also set to be released during this phase one. But the fact that the Prime Minister didn't say it himself leaves him some wiggle room, perhaps to get to a deal, it's a kind of a similar situation with Hamas where they threatened to not release hostages this coming Saturday, any hostages at all, accusing Israel of multiple cease fire violations. But they also made clear that they wanted the mediators to pressure Israel to get back in line with the ceasefire. And they very much left the door open to releasing hostages this Saturday.

This all comes as we are learning more about the conditions in which the remaining hostages are being held following the images of those three emaciated hostages who emerged on Saturday, certainly driving a greater sense of urgency in Israel to free all the remaining 76 hostages.

TAPPER: What else did the President say in today's meeting with the King of Jordan?

DIAMOND: Well, the President made very clear that he is not letting go of this idea of displacing all two plus million Palestinians living in Gaza permanently and the U.S. then taking ownership of the Gaza Strip. In fact, the president was very much doubling down on that idea. In that moments it was quite uncomfortable to see the King of Jordan sitting there alongside the president listening to this, even though the king, alongside other Arab leaders in the region, have made very clear that this is a proposal that they completely disagree with.

But in light of the fact that the President has been kind of, you know, issuing thinly veiled threats to withhold billions of dollars in U.S. military aid to Jordan and to Egypt, the King of Jordan certainly seemed inclined to go with it, at least to humor the president, pointing to discussions that are set to take place in Saudi Arabia that will also involve Egypt, the other country that Trump wants to send Palestinian refugees to. So they are, you know, at least en -- engaging in some of these discussions, but also making clear that all Palestinians are not going to leave Gaza.

[17:30:27]

And the President, for his part, continuing to insist that Palestinians would much rather live anywhere but Gaza. Clearly he has not been listening to Palestinians who have been telling us for days and days now that they would rather live in Gaza, even in the misery, even in the rubble, than to leave the place that they call home. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv for us, thanks so much.

Some welcome news in our World Lead, President Trump says that Marc Fogel, that's the American teacher who was arrested for drug charges, was released from Russia earlier today. He'll be back in the U.S. And at the White House later tonight around 10 p.m. Eastern, Fogel spent three years in Russia, was designated by the U.S. State Department as having been wrongfully detained. The White House says that he was released as part of an exchange, but they provided no other details about that exchange other than the White House calling it, quote, a good -- a show of good faith from the Russians, unquote.

Again, more transparency, please, from the Trump White House would be welcome. Tonight, Marc Fogel's sister, Anne, will join CNN to talk about her brother's long-awaited return to America. That's tonight on Erin Burnett OutFront, live at 7:00 Eastern, only on CNN.

Coming up, talk about bad blood, a feud between two tech billionaires spilling into public view, what one of Elon Musk's biggest rivals in tech had to say today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:35:49]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, thousands of federal workers, as you know, are in limbo after a federal judge extended the pause on the Trump administration's buyout offer. Again, other more high-profile employees have more clarity, such as the head of the Office of Government Ethics, who was canned on Monday.

Joining us now is Cathy Harris. Cathy Harris has an extensive background in employment law. She was sworn in as the chair of the U.S. Merit Systems Protection Board last year. If you haven't heard of that board, it hears termination in whistleblower cases for federal employees. And Cathy, we hear that you just heard some news about your job.

CATHY HARRIS, FORMER CHAIR, MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD: Yes. Unfortunately, last night, I got an e-mail from the White House stating that my position on the Merit Systems Protection Board would be terminated effective immediately.

TAPPER: Now this is -- it's a Senate position, right, Senate-confirmed position?

HARRIS: Senate-confirmed. I was nominated by President Biden, confirmed by the Senate for both my position as member and chairman.

TAPPER: So the Government Accountability Project calls your firing, quote, unlawful, and you're taking it to court. Tell us more about that.

HARRIS: I agree with the Government Accountability Project. I'm supposed to only be able to be fired for cause that's malfeasance in office, neglect of duty, or inefficiency, none of which apply to me. I've done a really good job. We've eliminated the backlog that accrued at the board. After five years without a quorum, we had 3,800 cases. I've got it down to about 1 percent left now.

We've been incredibly efficient. Small but mighty. And so we're a bipartisan board. Our members have terms that are supposed to extend spanning administrations. And my term is supposed to go until March 1st, 2028. So I believe that my firing was illegal and I should be put back to work.

TAPPER: And what do you do? How -- how does one even appeal -- appeal this decision or file -- file a lawsuit -- file a lawsuit on this?

HARRIS: Well, like some other heads of agencies who have filed, they filed in U.S. District Court, and that -- that's what I plan to do.

TAPPER: Can other federal workers sue if they feel like they've been wrongfully terminated?

HARRIS: Well, they bring their suits to the Merit Systems Protection Board.

TAPPER: They bring it right to you. OK.

HARRIS: Yes. So, you know, it's ironic. You know, I think this is part of an attack really on the civil service, undermining the independence of federal agencies that are here to protect against grift and corruption and prevent employment decisions based on political partisanship or patronage. That's what we're here to protect against. So dismantling those kinds of agencies is really troubling for the American people and for federal civil servants.

TAPPER: So you're an attorney, so one presumes that you have faith in the judicial system. We heard at the beginning of the show today, we didn't, I was saying we don't know if we're headed for a constitutional crisis because the -- the Trump administration was hinting that they might ignore what the justice -- what the judges have been saying. But then Trump had a press conference in the Oval Office and said that they would listen to what the judges say. It's just an appeals process. It takes a long time.

But look -- looking at this -- at this bigger picture, given the fact that the legislative branch of Congress seems to have just decided to let Trump do whatever he wants to do, do you have confidence that the judiciary can provide the appropriate checks and balances on the executive branch as our founding fathers wanted?

HARRIS: Listen, I'm an attorney. I swore an oath to the Constitution. I believe in the rule of law. And I believe the American people also want the rule of law because it protects all of us. And I think that people should speak out, talk to their Congress people, their representatives, and make their -- their opinions known that we want rule of law. I think that matters. I think that matters to people. And until it comes to your -- your doorstep, you know, you may not think it applies to you. But there's millions of federal workers, there's millions of American people who are going to be affected by this. And we all want the judiciary to be able to do its constitutional role.

[17:40:13]

We want Congress to step up and do its role. And so I do believe in it. It's held up all this time for these hundreds of years. And I believe in our country. I'm a patriot. And I'm hoping for the best.

TAPPER: All right. Well, stay in touch and let us know how this all goes. Cathy Harris, thanks for joining us today.

HARRIS: Thank you so much for having me.

TAPPER: Of course.

In our Tech Lead, you saw it here moments ago, Elon Musk in the Oval Office with President Trump taking questions about his efforts to slash away at the federal government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ADVISER: Everyone's very quiet. Nobody was quiet?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your -- your -- your -- your detractors -- your detractors, Mr. Musk --

MUSK: I'm what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- including -- including a lot of Democrats.

MUSK: I have detractors?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do, sir.

MUSK: I don't believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Musk there, feigning surprise that anyone might not like him. He's joking, of course. It seems one of those Musk detractors is OpenAI CEO, Sam Altman. Yesterday, Musk took a break from sledgehammering the government to front an offer to buy OpenAI. That's the parent company of ChatGPT for $97.4 billion.

Altman clapped back on X saying, quote, no, thank you. But we will buy Twitter for $9.74 billion if you want. That's about $34 billion less than Musk paid for Twitter in 2022. Musk responded by calling Altman a swindler as well as scam Altman. Get that? Because it rhymes with Sam.

Joining us to talk more about this is Kara Swisher, host of the On with Kara Swisher podcast, a CNN contributor. Kara, before we get into --

KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

TAPPER: -- this beef, I want it -- I want it -- well, it's not Kendrick Lamar versus Drake, but it is --

SWISHER: No, it is not. No, it is not.

TAPPER: -- but and -- and less -- less musical. But I do want to get your reaction to the lengthy appearance that Musk made in the Oval Office.

SWISHER: Well, he never met a camera he didn't want to jump in front of, I think. He sort of beats Trump out in terms of wanting to have the press look at him. You know, he wants to be the center of attention. And it's good for Trump, actually, because it takes the -- it's -- he's like a heat shield from what he's doing. And so he can say, oh, me, do I have detractors, all that stuff, and try to make jokes. He -- he's not as -- he's not a good joke maker, I guess.

But he can do that. And I think that's what they're trying to do, is let him do all the dirty work. And then Trump can say, well, he's a genius. And he's trying to save the American people from costs, et cetera. And I think they'll -- they'll do those twin narratives, what a rogue, and he's saving money for the American people.

TAPPER: You've covered --

SWISHER: That seems to be the message.

TAPPER: You've covered both Musk and Sam Altman extensively. There was already a lot of bad blood --

SWISHER: Yes.

TAPPER: -- between them --

SWISHER: Yes.

TAPPER: -- before this exchange. What's behind their feud?

SWISHER: Well, you know, they started the company together. They didn't have bad blood. I interviewed them together many years ago when they started OpenAI. And the goal was to, you know, do a safe internet because of all these big companies, like Google and Microsoft and others, would dominate.

And I think they were both of that mind. And so they funded this company. And -- and Musk wanted to take it over. And they declined his kind offer. And -- and then since then, and he rush -- he -- he sort of humped out and -- and didn't look behind and did other things. And now that it's doing well, he's come back to make trouble for it.

And he thinks, according to these investors that he's working with, that he's owed his stake back for the money he put in. And so they're likening it to if you -- if you fund a startup, you get -- you get the stake you deserve when you funded it. But he walked away and he also signed away his rights also.

It happens a million times in Silicon Valley. This is not an uncommon thing. And so now -- now since they're doing well and his own effort is not as strong as OpenAI's is, he's trying to -- to grab it. It -- it's sort of classic.

TAPPER: Sam Altman hit back at Musk with the -- this during an A.I. summit in Paris. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM ALTMAN, CEO, OPENAI: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity, I feel, for the guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You feel that?

ALTMAN: I do, actually. I don't think he's like a happy person. I do feel for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You've covered a lot of billionaires.

SWISHER: He's good at that. He's good. He's good at the -- as -- as the -- the shiv, you know, he does the little shiv.

TAPPER: Oh, Sam Altman just more out of sorrow than --

SWISHER: Yes. I feel sorry.

TAPPER: -- than anger.

SWISHER: I feel sorry because he's so unhappy and insecure, like sort of the backhanded insult, I guess.

TAPPER: You -- you -- you've covered a lot of these -- these folks, these tech billionaires. Are -- are any of them happy? SWISHER: I don't know a couple of them. I think Tim Cook's happy. I don't know. Such an adult seems happy. I think ones that act like adults are happy, absolutely. But you know, what Musk does is sort of he's -- he's 53 years old now at this point, and he sort of engages in memes, dank memes and stupid jokes and things like that. So the ones that haven't progressed beyond, I don't know, 12 years old, emotionally, I think have a problem. And so they -- they have insecurity. And I think Sam is right. And that's what happens when -- when this happens. And so, yes, there's a lot of people that are very happy.

[17:45:11]

TAPPER: Yes. He -- he -- he changed his Twitter I.D. to like a -- a juvenile joke earlier today. And then --

SWISHER: Yes, he likes that. Yes.

TAPPER: I mean, I -- I'm not offended. It's just stupid.

SWISHER: Well, you've got it. I mean, I think the thing is -- the thing is he's underneath all that. He's quite a crafty and strategic person. And so some of it is performative, some of it is deep insecurity. Some of it is he likes the power and he likes the attention. And he feels emboldened what he's doing. And Trump, of course, is letting him. And, you know, again, I do think it's -- it's not a bad thing for Trump to have this guy running around because he's so famous, so rich, so powerful. And -- and -- and so at some point, if he oversteps, he can say, well, it's Elon Musk, that kind of thing, so.

TAPPER: Yes. Yes, no, he's absolutely brilliant in his way. Kara Swisher, thanks so much.

SWISHER: In a way. There's lots of brilliant people in Silicon Valley, Jake. It's -- he's not the only one so just remember that.

TAPPER: I didn't say he was the only one, but he's --

SWISHER: Yes, yes.

TAPPER: He -- he is a brilliant fellow.

SWISHER: Yes.

TAPPER: Even if his --

SWISHER: He is.

TAPPER: -- dank memes are not always. Anyway, thanks, Kara.

If it seems like everyone around you is sick, that's probably because they are the winter virus season is in full force. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here with what you need to know as flu cases spike.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:51:05]

TAPPER: Our Health Lead now, this is one of the most severe flu seasons in the United States in the last 15 years. It's so bad in some states, school districts are closing because so many students and staff are getting sick. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here. Sanjay, this is already the second time flu cases are peaking this season?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is second -- second peak. And overall, if you look at just the number of people who are going to the doctor for these types of symptoms, hasn't been this bad really since 2009. That was when H1N1 was circulating. That was a previous pandemic.

So pretty -- pretty bad flu season. Take a look at the map, Jake. You can get an idea of -- of the high levels of flu activity in different places around the country. The darker the color, the more flu in those states. If you're in one of those states and you're having symptoms, wondering, do you have the flu? Chances are likely if -- if you're in one of those high circulation states.

Look at the numbers overall. If you just look at flu season overall in this country, there have been roughly 24 million cases that have been documented, 300,000, 310,000 hospitalizations, 38,000 just past month, and 13,000 deaths. And that what -- what has people, you know, pretty concerned, Jake, just in terms of the numbers.

Also, Jake, you may remember the term positivity rate. That's a number of tests that come back positive. If you're over 10 or 12 percent, that means that there's a lot of the virus out there. With flu right now, it's 31.6 percent, which means that we are still very much in flu season, Jake.

TAPPER: What can people do to protect themselves and stay healthy?

GUPTA: Well, you know, the vaccine does offer some help. I mean, it -- it's -- first of all, it takes about two weeks after you get the shot, which you can still do now, given that we're in flu season. It takes about two weeks to develop the immunity. It's not 100 percent protection. It's probably closer to 50 percent protection from getting a flu shot. But if you're high risk in particular, that can be a real benefit.

There's also something new, Jake. There's home tests. You know, we've seen COVID home tests, but now there's flu home tests as well. This will look familiar to you, Jake, a nasal swab, a little reagent. And then you put it on this little thing. These look very similar to the COVID test, but now you can find out at home if you have the flu.

That can be important. Again, if you're high risk or if you want to make sure you're not infecting people, get the flu test. Also, you could be a candidate for Tamiflu. And if you're going to take Tamiflu, it works best within the first couple of days. Sometimes it's hard to get a test if you're not getting it at home within the first couple of days. That takes away your opportunity to get the benefit of Tamiflu.

So, you know, these home tests, about $15 per test, now available just over the past couple of weeks.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. And Dr. Gupta will be back later this week to answer your questions about the severe flu season. Look at the QR code right there on your screen. Put your camera, look at it. You can submit questions by using that QR code. Paging Dr. Gupta.

[17:54:03]

A live look here in D.C. We have deteriorating conditions as a major snowstorm moves through. This is one of three winter storms active in the U.S. right now. Next, we're going to go to the CNN Extreme Weather Center to track it all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our National Lead, a trio of winter storms are set to pummel the United States this week. The first one's already underway. Let's get to CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam. Derek, what is driving these storms? What should Americans expect?

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Jake, it's the jet stream that's driving three different winter storms from the West Coast to the East Coast this week. The first initial storm impacting the mid-Atlantic right now with icing concerns across the state of Virginia. Secondary storm system will bring a swath of snow from Des Moines into Chicago as well as Detroit.

So let's highlight the more immediate concerns. Up to a half an inch of ice is possible across western portions of Virginia with this first initial storm before it exits off the East Coast. Then there's a brief lull.

And then the secondary storm moves in and impacts basically the same location. So we'll add additional icing to the same areas. And then look at the snowfall from Grand Rapids, Michigan into Chicago.

A wide swath of four to eight inches anticipated across this region. The nation's capital could pick up a quick two to four inches from this initial storm as well. So it's storm after storm after storm.

But debilitating ice conditions possible in and around Roanoke. So we're going to watch out for that, especially in the higher elevations of the Appalachian Mountains. As we travel further south, there's a flash flood threat from North Georgia through portions of Louisiana. Going to monitor that.

[18:00:05]

And then on the West Coast, the third storm enters the equation on Thursday into Friday. This is an area that, of course, we're monitoring for the potential of debris flows and mud flows because of the recent fires in and around Los Angeles. Already a moderate risk of excessive rain that could lead to flash flooding. Back to you.

TAPPER: All right, Derek, thanks so much. The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room.