Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Wants Dept. Of Education To Be "Closed Immediately"; Trump Speaks With Russia's Putin & Ukraine's Zelenskyy; Democrats Bash Musk In First DOGE Subcommittee Hearing; Rep. Jasmine Crockett, (D- TX), Is Interviewed About DOGE Subcommittee Hearing, Elon Musk; Trump Plan To Slash USAID Could Cost U.S. Farmers Billions. White House Bars Associated Press Over "Gulf Of America"; CNN Speaks With The Attorneys Who Managed Prisoner Swap; U.S. Hit By Most Intense Flu Season In 15 Years. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 12, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Kansas Farmers Union is warning, yes, possibly. And the group's executive director is here to explain why.

And leading this hour, President Trump moments ago making news on a wide range of issues in the Oval Office, detailing his phone calls with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, defending Elon Musk's efforts to shrink the federal government and saying he wants to close the Department of Education immediately. Let's bring in Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us.

Kaitlan, let's start with the major international news. These calls that President Trump made with the leaders of Russia and then afterwards, Ukraine.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Jake, this is the first time we're hearing directly from Trump on this call that he had with President Putin today, the first confirmed call that we know of between the U.S. president and the Russian president since Trump took office a few weeks ago. And it comes on the heels of the release of Marc Fogel, who was here at the White House last night. But also the president said that they jumpstarted negotiations about how to end Russia's war in Ukraine, something that we have been watching very closely here as President Zelenskyy is set to meet with a lot of top officials at the White House. And we heard from the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth earlier today saying that membership into NATO for Ukraine is off the table and not realistic as these negotiations are now going to pick up with Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Vice President Vance and others involved in that, Jake.

And the president also said that he was going to be meeting with President Putin. He just told reporters in the Oval Office he believes that will be happening likely in Saudi Arabia, but said that a location is not set yet. Jake, this is what else he had to say about this major moment today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, we had a great call and it lasted for a long time, over an hour this morning. I also had with President Zelenskyy a very good call after that. And I think we're on the way to getting peace.

President Putin said that he wants it to end. He doesn't want to end it and then go back to fighting six months later. We talked about the possibility, I mentioned it, of a cease fire so we can stop the killing. And I think we'll probably end up at some point getting a cease fire in the not too distant future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, of course, the timeline here is a real question, Jake. President Trump pledged on the campaign trail to solve the Ukraine war in one day. And now the question is what this is going to look like and how this negotiation is going to go down, whether or not he sticks by what we used to hear from the Biden White House, which was that Ukraine would always have a seat at the table and essentially get to decide what concessions, if any, they made in a negotiation. I was actually speaking with the press secretary earlier today and asked if some of the bargaining chips are being taken off the table. The things that we know Putin does not want, like Ukraine joining NATO and saying that the idea of them going back to pre-2014 borders in Ukraine, which was before Putin illegally and annexed Crimea before the 2022 invasion, if that is something that takes those bargaining chips off the table between Putin and Zelenskyy.

Earlier the White House said that that they did not think that was the case. And the president there was just talking about that as well, Jake. But of course, real big questions about what this is going to look like. And he had that 90-minute call, according to the Kremlin, with President Putin today right after Jake, he got on the phone with the Ukrainian leader, President Zelenskyy, who is about to meet with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent in Ukraine and then other officials still to come in this week, Jake.

TAPPER: Kaitlan, what do we know about this proposal that President Trump just referenced to shut down the Department of Education?

COLLINS: The president says he wants the Department of Education closed immediately. There are no plans that we have heard of for that to happen. Obviously, he is called to abolish it and signed executive orders to that effect. He does have an Education secretary, I should note, Jake, who has been making her way through the confirmation process on Capitol Hill. He signed executive orders last week that are essentially carried out by the Department of Education.

It's not clear what that would look like in Title IX. For example, if the Education Department was shut down. So it's one of those things that he has long said he wants to do. The question of just unilaterally closing an entire department, though without congressional input, is an open one, Jake. And it's safe to say it is still operating today, just maybe not, certainly as we've seen in past administrations.

TAPPER: Yes. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

Don't miss Kaitlan's show, "The Source." It airs tonight and every weeknight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only on CNN.

Let's dive into this with our panel. Alyssa Farah Griffin, we heard President Trump tease his plans to dismantle the Department of Education before. Today he said he'd like to see it closed immediately. Do you think he will lay out a detailed plan? And what is your take on the president just deciding to shut down agencies that exist in our government?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: So listen, this is what Trump ran on. He did say this on the campaign trail. And in certain corners of the right wing, this has long been a position that folks have wanted. This is like a dream for someone like a Rush Limbaugh back in the day to close the Department of Education. It very rarely ever made it into the mainstream of politics, certainly to the presidential level.

But my most likely guess and outcome here is that he sends DOGE into the Department of Education to look for massive cuts and slashes and then goes from there. I do think there'll be pushback from Congress if he tries to just outright close the agency and shutter it completely. Of course, it deals with things like Pell Grants, as Kaitlan mentioned, Title IX, where he just signed, actually with the Republicans, a widely popular executive order that's enforced by the Department of Education. So the workability is a bit complicated, but I would anticipate, at minimum, you're going to see a massive scaling back of the Department of Education.

[17:05:30]

TAPPER: Bill Brennan, here's a little bit of what President Trump just said about the courts. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're being hindered by courts where they file in certain courts where it's very hard to win, and a judge will stop us and a judge will say that it doesn't make any difference what you find, you just keep paying the money. That's a hell of a way to be. And I follow the courts. I have to follow the law. All it means is that we appeal. But that gives people time to cover their tracks, and that's what they do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Your thoughts?

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Jake, we live in a beautiful system of checks and balances. The legislative branch, Congress, the House of Representatives and the Senate, they enact the law. The judicial branch interprets the law. And the executive branch is kind of unique in that trifecta, if you will, and that the president has the ability to issue these executive orders.

Now a couple of times he's issued quite a few of them in the past few weeks. A couple of times, attorneys general or others have gone to the courts. The courts have ruled against the president. And he said, you just heard him out. What we do is appeal.

So he's doing everything according to the book. And if you look really -- I know there's been a lot of talk about are we in a constitutional crisis? We're not in a constitutional crisis. He's following the law, but he's, he hit the ground running and he's issuing a lot of executive orders from the executive branch. And the courts will make decisions and he will appeal and everything will be just fine.

TAPPER: Bakari Sellers, the press secretary for the White House, Karoline Leavitt, said this about federal judges orders blocking Trump's executive orders. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is part of a larger concerted effort by Democrat activists and nothing more than the continuation of the weaponization of justice against President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Weaponization. What do you think of that?

BAKARI SELLERS, (D) FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I just think that's patently absurd, Jake. And I think that she knows that as well. I think that she's confusing her. Her language is not the weaponization of anything. It's, in fact, what we call the rule of law.

It's basic civics, basic government. And look, I find Republicans having a whole lot of hypocrisy when it comes to this, because when Joe Biden was president, I think one of the best examples you can go to are when you tried to cancel or eliminate student loan debt and you had Republican attorney generals from all across the country who were shopping cases, who found favorable jurisdictions to allow their cases to meander up to the Supreme Court and hopefully find that piece of legislation or executive order unconstitutional. I mean, this happens year in and year out, president after president. And that's not what this is.

In fact, decently concerned that the bar is so low for President Trump because he didn't go full Andrew Jackson. He's simply saying he's going to follow the law, he's not going to disregard the court rulings and he's going to appeal. And people are cheering for it. I guess the old saying is you never go full Andrew Jackson.

TAPPER: Alyssa, Trump also detailed his conversation with Zelensky and Putin. Trump's plans also, he outlined them to try to broker some sort of deal between the two, potentially meeting with Putin in Saudi Arabia, not with Zelenskyy, at least not initially. What's your reaction? GRIFFIN: I think this is what Donald Trump promised he was going to do and one of the reasons myself and many lifelong Republicans couldn't support him. Listen, he gave up all the bargaining relationships that Ukraine has by saying the 2014 lines are not what we're going to go back to in basically telegraphing that Russia is OK to have invaded its sovereignty and not making clear who the aggressor is here.

I think it's a very concerning day for Ukraine's future and the repercussions for the entire region. Listen, nobody wants to see more bloodshed. We don't want to see endless U.S. dollars go to Ukraine. But he needs to be unequivocally clear that this was a war of aggression by Putin and that we are going to stand by Ukraine, who's long been our ally.

TAPPER: All right, thanks to all of you.

The very first Department of Government Excellence Committee, DOGE, hearing took place on Capitol Hill today. And when I say you don't want to miss the highlights, trust me, you don't. It was explosive. We'll show you next.

Plus, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here with answers to your most pressing questions as the U.S. experiences its most intense flu season in 15 years.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:14:13]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, a war on waste turned into a war of words today on Capitol Hill. The subcommittee of the Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE, held its first hearing today, ostensibly aimed at improving efficiency within the federal government. However, the hearing quickly devolved into some pretty inefficient bickering between Democrats and Republicans. And while Elon Musk was not there, he was certainly top of mind for congressional Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Chairwoman Greene literally showed a dick pic in our oversight congressional hearing, so I thought I'd bring one as well.

Now, this, of course, we know, is President Elon Musk. He's also the world's richest man. He was the biggest political donor in the last election.

REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX), OVERSIGHT SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVT. EFFICIENCY: He sat there in the Oval Office yesterday and he admitted that he was lying and he was using his propaganda machine to do it when he said that we sent millions of dollars to Gaza for condoms. That was a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:15:14] TAPPER: Let's bring in that House Oversight Committee member, Texas Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett. Congresswoman, did you learn anything from today's hearing that will help you or Elon Musk or anyone eliminate government waste?

CROCKETT: Absolutely. First of all, it's great to be with you, Jake.

I do want to point out that not even the Republicans own witnesses decided to try to defend what Elon Musk has done thus far. Instead, all of the witnesses talked about things that we've been advocating for, such as making sure that we can modernize our technology, so that we can root out those fraudsters that are able to attack us because basically we are still living in the Stone Ages with our technology as we are trying to disseminate much needed dollars, whether it's for SNAP benefits or whether it's for a contract or whether it's for PPP loans. So yes, they were advocating for the things that we've been talking about for a long time. And the Republicans consistently say defund, defund. And they don't want to make the investments and therefore we end up in the situation that we're in.

But they did not have answer for why it would make sense to get rid of the Department of Education, why it would make sense to tell the CDC and the FDA that they should not be giving out information so that the American public can stay safe. They didn't have any explanations as to why we would have him sitting over the Department of Treasury or why if he is supposedly auditing anything, why they didn't actually go find someone who actually does auditing and instead put him there. So honestly, as far as I'm concerned, they have proven that this is nothing more than a sham.

And as I laid out another payday for Elon Musk, because we know that if there is any government welfare to be handed out, it is consistently being handed out to Elon Musk, who stopped all the money to USAID and various other organizations that depend on that money, while at the same time deciding that he would somehow get another contract for over $300 million authorized for a company that he's overseeing while he's also allegedly rooting out waste.

TAPPER: You have called a DOGE the devil. What do you say to the average American out there who says, look, the government spends too much money and I just believe that they're not taking seriously enough the federal government, the waste and the fraud that is out there. And if Elon Musk can find some of it, more power to him.

CROCKETT: Yes, if he could. But first of all, if you're going to find it, then the proper thing to do would be to find it. And then clearly, this is an appointee of our Republican president, he should then take his findings to the Republican caucus. Currently, the Republicans control the House, the Senate, as well as the White House. He should have a caucus meeting with them, talk about what his findings are, bring actual documentation versus posting on X and then saying, oh, well, I'm not going to be perfect.

Well, what is the point? Honestly, you and your little team of teenagers seem like the biggest waste that we've endured since Donald Trump has sworn in. Because we should not be chasing these random stories that are nothing more than propaganda that are designed to infuriate the American people. I understand when people say that they are concerned about our debt, as they should be concerned. But if you really want to look at the problem, the problem is probably with the Trump administration. We know that administration, the last time they were in, ran our debt up an additional $8 trillion more than anybody else has ever done.

And we're not talking about that. So I don't know how they plan to fix it. If they want to talk about tax cuts, the ones that they are trying to get in under the radar, that are only going to benefit the top one percent, then let's have that conversation and talk about them paying their fair share. Let's stop this idea of saying that it's people that are getting $6 a day to eat on SNAP benefits. And those are the people that are the problem with all of the waste.

Let's talk about the fact that the Defense Department, which, when we look at our -- when we look at our spending, takes up almost 50 percent of our budget. And we know that Defense has not been able to pass an audit. In the last six audits, they were spending as much as $1,000 per toilet. That is where we have real money that is going out.

Yet you know what they keep doing, Jake? Every single budget, they give them more money. You know where Elon gets the vast majority of his money? He gets it from the side of the ledger that defense resides on. Let's talk about it if you want to talk about it.

TAPPER: Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

My next guest says President Trump's efforts to shut down USAID could hurt America's farmers. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:24:29]

TAPPER: In our national lead, American businesses feeling the squeeze from the economy. They're dealing with rising inflation, hitting 3 percent for the first time since last June. There is also, of course, President Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum that could result in increased U.S. manufacturing costs and the president's attempts to slash USAID, the main agency that oversees foreign aid, that is having a big blowback when it comes to the American farmer. The U.S. government, after all, bought more than $2 billion in food aid from American farmers back in 2020. Now, about $340 million worth of food assistance reportedly is on hold amid the president's freeze that's leaving the nation's farmers, many of whom voted for Mr. Trump, in limbo.

[17:25:09]

It even has some Republicans sounding the alarm. Republican Senator Jerry Moran of Kansas recently tweeting, "Time is running out before this life saving aid perishes. It's currently stalled in U.S. ports," he said.

Joining us right now from Cortland, Kansas is Nick Levendofsky. He's the executive director of the Kansas Farmers Union.

Nick, thanks for joining us. Can you explain, if you can, how American farmers work with USAID and what the impact of what's been going on in Washington this last week or so has been?

NICK LEVENDOFSKY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, KANSAS FARMERS UNION: Yes, thanks for having me, Jake. And the impact that it has on farmers is huge. But farmers are really just the starting point when it comes to this food aid. They're the ones that grow these crops here in Kansas and all over the country, primarily wheat and grain sorghum here in Kansas are the main products that are used in this food aid. They then sell that grain to their local grain cooperative elevators or to a grain merchandiser.

And then USAID would go in and put out contracts for bid to get that grain and then take it to these ports and then move it out to those places in need all across the world. And of course, when USAID was frozen last week, that all stopped, that came to a screeching halt. And grain sorghum farmers, especially here in Kansas, were the first to get hit with that because the USAID program, Food for Peace program, was the main direct market for their grain.

TAPPER: This comes at a time of course, when farmers are already struggling.

LEVENDOFSKY: Yes, they are. Right now we're looking at all-time historic lows for commodity prices. When I say commodities, I mean the crops that farmers grow. But we're also looking at all-time high input costs. So the seed costs, as farmers are getting ready to plant this spring, their seed costs are exceedingly high.

But so are the chemicals and the fertilizers, but also the fuel that they need and in the equipment that it takes to run. And you know, you throw in a steel tariff now that we have, that just drives up the price of that equipment because there's a lot of steel that goes into farm equipment.

TAPPER: 2024 CNN exit poll showed President Trump winning rural voters by a huge margin, 64 percent for Trump, 34 percent for Harris. Many of these rural voters are from farm driven communities. What are you hearing from your members? Are they sticking with Trump? Are they happy about this?

Do they see a bright side at all?

LEVENDOFSKY: Well, I'll tell you, our membership is pretty evenly split, fairly evenly split when it comes to politics. In fact, we might lean a little more to the left when it comes to some things. We're pretty progressive on a lot of our policies. But farmers, I think, are -- they're nervous, they're anxious. This is a real time of uncertainty for farmers, and they don't need any more uncertainty added to it.

So, when you start losing markets, when you start raising tariffs, it does cause some angst in the community. I think, you know, farmers for the most part that supported Trump are going to continue to support him until they start hurting more. And nobody wants to see that. Nobody wants that. They didn't vote for these things. They didn't vote for food aid to stop going to hungry people all across the world.

And they certainly didn't vote for tariffs that hurt their markets.

TAPPER: They certainly didn't vote for 500 tons of to be rotting in America's ports. Nick Levendofsky, thanks so much. Appreciate your time today, sir.

Also in our politics lead, CNN's Brian Stelter reporting that for a second day, the White House has barred the Associated Press, one of the largest news organizations in the world, from entering the Oval Office during a press conference. This time it was for the swearing in of Tulsi Gabbard as the director of National Intelligence, followed by Trump's remarks. We're going to have more on why in a moment.

But travel back in time with me to 2022, when candidate Donald Trump said this about the importance in this nation of free speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If we don't have free speech, then we just don't have a free country. It's as simple as that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Last month, on his first day in office, President Trump signed a wave of executive orders, including one called Restoring Freedom of Speech and Ending Federal Censorship. It said, among other things, quote, "Government censorship of speech is intolerable in a free society," unquote. The same day, President Trump signed another order renaming the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America. And that order is what brings us back to this week and the initial reason the Associated Press was blocked. The reporter was blocked from entering the Oval Office yesterday because while the United States government now recognizes the new name, the Gulf of America, and the Gulf of America now shows up on Google Map, which goes by what the U.S. calls things, Mexico and other countries have not recognized the name change, and that leads "The Associated Press" to issue this style guidance, quote, The Gulf of Mexico has carried that name for more than 400 years. "The Associated Press" will refer to it by its original name while acknowledging the new name Trump has chosen, unquote, sort of like how for a while everyone was still calling X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, maybe.

Anyway, the executive editor of "The AP" says it was told by the White House yesterday, get on board with our name change or your reporters cannot come to the executive order signing in the Oval Office. And this was that signing that "The AP" reporter was barred from, where the owner of X, Elon Musk, a self-described free speech absolutist, stood behind the Resolute Desk answering questions about DOGE and the dismantling of huge swaths of the federal government without any apparent oversight. The White House, of course, was word policing and punishing "The AP."

Thus, none of those questions came from "The AP," which boasts the 2.6 billion people see its news every year. CNN's Kaitlan Collins asked the White House about all this today. Here was the response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Nobody has the right to go into the Oval Office and ask the President of the United States questions. That's an invitation that is given. And there are hundreds of outlets on this campus. Many of you in this room who don't have the privilege of being part of that pool every single day and getting to ask the President questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The end result of all this is a chilling effect. It's not really about whatever "The AP" wants to call the gulf, it's about whether a President should punish reporters because they're not doing what he wants and not calling things what he wants. And, again, this can swing both ways. Back in 2021, the Biden administration's official position, wrongly, was that there was no migrant crisis at the border.

A White House official told CNN back then, quote, children coming to our border seeking refuge from violence, economic hardships and other dire circumstances is not a crisis, unquote. But we in the news media here at CNN, we have eyes and ears and we called it a crisis because it was a crisis. Would it have been OK for the Biden White House to not allow CNN reporters into the Oval Office because of that?

Now, will it be OK with the mega movement if a future president, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, bans news outlets from entering the Oval Office because they don't use her terminology for whatever issue? Trans Americans, farmers, the border crisis, whatever.

And to extend it further, what about Mr. Trump's attempts to unila -- unilaterally gut federal agencies or get rid of them without even talking to Congress, such as USAID, or he want -- what he wants to do with the Department of Education, or his efforts to render them officially impotent, as is happening right now with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?

What if a Democratic president in the future decides she's going to do the same thing? She's just unilaterally going to not recognize and dismantle ICE. I mean, what if that happens? These standards, they get eroded. And anybody who's lived in Washington knows when the standards are eroded, whether it has to do with pardons or filibuster exemptions or executive actions, they never come back. They just don't.

So enjoy presidents deciding access based on compliance with the words that they like. It is a horrible new standard, and everyone applauding it is going to hate it soon enough.

[17:33:55]

Marc Fogel is spending his first full day back in the United States after being released from Russia in an exchange. And his lawyers will join me live in moments to explain how all of this unfolded.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: In our World Lead, an American citizen was released from prison in Belarus today. The citizen asked to not be named out of respect for his privacy. This has accused Russian money launderer Alexander Vinnik is being released from U.S. custody, a source from the Trump administration told CNN. Vinnik is accused of running a multi-billion dollar cryptocurrency exchange that allegedly did building -- did business with drug dealers. Vinnik's release coming in exchange for Marc Fogel. Marc Fogel, the American teacher who was detained in Russia for having marijuana that he was prescribed for back pain in the United States. Fogel arrived back in the United States from Russian detainment late yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC FOGEL, WRONGFULLY DETAINED IN RUSSIA: I feel like the luckiest man on earth right now. And I want you to know that I am not a hero in this at all. And President Trump is a hero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's great to have him back in the U.S. With me now are the two attorneys for Marc Fogel, Dmitry Afanasiev and Martin De Luca. Dmitry, let me start with you. This prisoner swap seemed to come as a surprise for a lot of people. How long was it in the works?

DMITRY AFANASIEV, ATTORNEY FOR MARC FOGEL: Well, we got involved in a case about two years ago. Ironically, it's my -- my kids who asked me to do it because they had kids at the American school in Moscow who absolutely loved Marc Fogel. Marc Fogel -- what saved Mark Fogel is that he was a good teacher in the end of the day. And so a lot went on during those two -- two years. And things were pretty intense over the last few months. Let me put it that way.

TAPPER: Martin, how were things intense? And tell us what kind of work happened behind the scenes to make this happen.

MARTIN DE LUCA, ATTORNEY FOR MARC FOGEL: Well, I'll -- I'll get into just what I can get into. But thanks for having me. The intensity really developed after the election. So what's important to remember about Marc is that it's unprecedented. He was passed up for three prisoner swaps, two in 2022, and one in August 1st, 2024.

[17:40:19]

TAPPER: Passed up by who? By the Russians or by Biden?

DE LUCA: By both sides at the end of the day. But you could reasonably conclude it's by the Biden administration because each side releases who the other side wants, right? The Russians are not really in the business necessarily of picking which American they're going to send back. Obviously, you may have some of that in the negotiation towards the end. But the problem was that Marc had never been designated wrongfully detained, which is a prerequisite for the American government to prioritize it.

And why did the intensity in the last few months? Well, the family ended up getting the wrongful detention designation, the letter, the official letter the day after the election.

TAPPER: Interesting. Dmitry, when did you hear that the swap was a go, that it was a yes? And -- and what's it like for you seeing Marc Fogel finally stepping foot back on U.S. soil?

AFANASIEV: Well, look, once Martin did what he did in the States to get the wrongful designation, it made my job easier. I'm not entirely easy, but it's easier to do advocacy in Russia and trying to be persuasive that there's a unique set of circumstances at the moment where we could do the unusual and, you know, persuade people who make decisions to make a show of good faith. And I'm thrilled that this is happening.

The case that began as a purely human rights case, because, as I said, my kids asked dad to help the teacher and what dad doesn't want to be a hero with his kids. Frankly, I had no particular idea how I was going to accomplish it two years ago. But working together with Martin and my partners, we managed to finally put together the strategy that led us to the successful resolution of this matter.

But what ended up is Marc Fogel became part of history in the course of this case, because it looks like there's a chance, although we are lawyers are skeptics -- skeptics by definition, but there's a modest chance that the Marc Fogle case is actually triggering a massive change of -- of world events. And this is just so mind boggling.

But at the moment, we're just so excited. And in fact, what I'm doing is I'm learning from my client, Marc Fogel, and I'm drinking beer on CNN, just like he did yesterday next to President Trump.

TAPPER: I wish you had told me ahead of time.

AFANASIEV: I think that's the best way to express our feelings right now.

TAPPER: Dmitry, I wish you told me ahead of time. I'd be -- I'd be drinking beer with you.

AFANASIEV: I have a cap for you, too. I have a cap for you, too.

TAPPER: Well, someday you'll be able to put that through the television and I'll -- I'll -- I'll do a shotgun with you like what Saquon Barkley did the other day.

Martin, we know of at least eight other Americans in Russian custody. Do you have any confidence that they can be released? Is this a new era, do you think? Because President Trump and President Putin obviously have a closer working relationship than President Biden did or for whatever reason. Do you think that these other eight may be able to get out?

DE LUCA: Yes, is the short answer. The longer answer is yes, because not they have a close working relationship. I think it's because of the way you look at the world. And the Russians have an opportunity unlike what you would have in a hundred years with President Trump being open-minded about how you deal with the Russians, right? I don't want to get political. It's not my place to do that. But what was the end game? I mean, what was the end game to the Ukraine conflict until they run out of men, until there was nobody else to fight, right? The other side wasn't going to run out of men. So what's the end game?

The President is looking at this in a very creative way and a very unconventional way and totally out of the box way. And that was, I think, the opening and the opportunity to say, well, look, if -- if -- if you're -- if you're going to start on the right foot, holding American citizens in your prisons when they're getting really excessive sentences, as was the case for Marc, because yes, he -- he was in possession of some marijuana, that was medically prescribed.

TAPPER: Right.

DE LUCA: But what are other people getting for that amount of marijuana? Six months, a year, two years? Why did he get 14 years?

TAPPER: Right?

DE LUCA: So you can't start a relationship of trust that way -- that way. And -- and what happened here is this. I mean, this is, to me, unprecedented in -- in U.S.-Russian relations, what happened, which is that the Russian government released Marc. Now we're calling it a swap. But the -- the reality is that there was an over 24-hour gap. And that has never happened before. What are we used to seeing?

[17:45:06]

TAPPER: Usually it's the two prisoners released at the exact same time.

DE LUCA: At the exact same time.

TAPPER: It's because there's no trust. And you're saying this time they just -- the -- the -- the Russians trusted, here's Marc Fogel and then the other guy, the cryptocurrency guy was released after.

DE LUCA: The Russians trusted that the U.S. would do its part, I think.

TAPPER: Won't uphold its part of the deal.

DE LUCA: And on other hand, the presidents had the first conversation. And it wasn't a five-minute Curtis call.

TAPPER: Right.

DE LUCA: It was, I -- I understand, like a 90-minute call.

TAPPER: Marty De Luca, Dmitry Afanasiev, thanks to both of you. Congratulations. It's great to see -- great to see him back in the United States. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:50:08]

TAPPER: Paging Dr. Gupta. In our Health Lead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here to answer your questions about this year's doozy of a flu season. And let's right -- get right to it Sanjay. So Jeff from Chandler, Arizona tells us he was vaccinated for the flu in September, but he still got the flu. So he asks, why can't we get a better match between the vaccine and the strains actually out there?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: They -- they have to try and predict what strain is going to be circulating the next year. That's the challenge. There's all sorts of models to try and figure that out. But if it's not a great match, it's because the crystal ball really didn't return the predominant flu strain. Take a quick look, Jake, over the last several years, the effectiveness of the flu vaccine year to year. The -- the -- the most effective year was really in 2010. That was right after the H1N1 pandemic. This year so far, around 42 percent. The year's not over yet. But we'll see. That's -- but still, that's 42 percent effectiveness against getting sick, going to the hospital, or even dying from the flu. So still, you know, some -- a lot of value there.

TAPPER: That brings us to an important question from Nancy who asks, since the flu is still going strong, should you get the flu shot if you haven't already, or is that just in the fall?

GUPTA: Yes, no, you know, it's interesting. This question came in quite a bit. I want to show you, we -- we -- we aggregated data over the last 40 years, figure out what month is the month where you have the most flu activity. And what you find, it's actually now. It's -- it's February. That's when you see the most flu activity, and that's pretty stable across the last 40 years.

So it's still a good idea to get a vaccine because we're still very much in it. Keep in mind, it takes about two weeks for you to build up enough antibodies to actually be protected against the flu after you're getting that shot.

TAPPER: And finally, Robin from Moab, Utah wants to know if a fever temperature is part of having the flu.

GUPTA: Yes. It -- typically it is, but not always. The thing about flu is that you have all sorts of different symptoms, including muscle aches, chills, things like that. Comes on suddenly, and it's severe. That's typically how you can tell the difference between a cold. Also, Jake, as we talked about before, there are at-home flu tests now. This is something that's relatively new.

You know, you remember these swabs and the reagent and the testing kit here. You can do this at home, about $15 per test. That way you know. You can stay away from people so as not to get other people infected. And if you're at high risk in particular, there are medications that are best taken right after you have symptoms. So the -- a flu test can help there as well, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Stay well to you. My next guest has a unique perspective on the avalanche of changes by President Trump. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:57:02]

TAPPER: Our Pop Culture Lead now, comedian Roy Wood Jr. is here. He is, of course, host of the CNN comedy series, Have I Got News For You, which is coming back with a whole new season. Roy --

ROY WOOD JR., COMEDIAN: Yes.

TAPPER: Good to see you.

WOOD JR.: Hey man.

TAPPER: The new season kicks off Saturday.

WOOD JR.: Yes.

TAPPER: The show often touches on politics, obviously. What stands out to you as President Trump begins his second term here?

WOOD JR.: There -- there's a lot of stuff we're going to have to figure out a way to get into on Saturday, myself, Amber Ruffin, and Michael Ian Black. But before we start, Jake, I want to send a quick shout out to one company that's standing tall in the midst of this Gulf of America nonsense. You know, Google bent the knee, changed the Gulf of America. Apple Maps bent the knee, changed the Gulf of America.

MapQuest, still holding strong, Gulf of Mexico, check it as of five minutes ago, MapQuest. I -- I ain't been on MapQuest since I had my AOL e-mail, man. I used to print up them directions, but I got to give it up to MapQuest for not bending the knee to all this nonsense, man. It's the Gulf of Mexico.

TAPPER: That's like MySpace. You're really --

WOOD JR.: I'm using MapQuest from now on. I'm printing them directions, and I'm driving down the street, Jake Tapper, and I'm going to be flipping them sheets of paper, man. I don't -- I don't know what we're going to do on Saturday.

TAPPER: You just -- you just -- you just put a -- a target on their back, I have to tell you. There's going to be a MapQuest executive order tomorrow.

WOOD JR.: MapQuest ain't got the technology to update that. They still think Pluto a planet. They're going to be fine, man.

TAPPER: Wait, I thought it was -- I thought it was a planet again. I thought it was --

WOOD JR.: Look, they -- they never stop being a planet on MapQuest, man. It is -- this is a wild first month of this administration, bro. And I -- there's so much to unpack. I -- I am anxious to get back on the air on Saturday and do our little fake quiz game so we can keep people up on what's going on. But I just -- I -- it -- it just -- it's like cats scattering every day.

TAPPER: It's a lot. It is a lot. Any thoughts, Trump's been driving DEI out of government, really, and criticizing any diversity, equity, and inclusion programming.

WOOD JR.: Yes, I don't -- I don't understand how you can decide that you can't hire people based on just the hookup. Like, you can't assume that everybody who doesn't look like you is not qualified. Believe it or not, there are some people who don't look like you who are better than you at the job, and it's not going to end well. I just think that the American people, man, you got to make sure that a lot of this stuff that's happening, we have to take -- you have to be able to tell the difference between what is spectacle and what is policy, and a lot of that stuff is getting all mixed in together.

TAPPER: No pennies, no paper straws.

WOOD JR.: Yes, no pennies, no paper straws. Oh, it's not Fort -- the Mount McKinley. Oh, now it's Fort Bragg again. Talk to me strictly about policy, man. I'm anxious to get back to it. I'm anxious to bring in some crazy guests and dig in this Saturday, man.

[18:00:02]

TAPPER: All right. Roy Wood Jr., thanks so much. A new season of Have I Got News For You premieres Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific only on CNN.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on the TikTok at JakeTapper also Substack. You can follow the show on X at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcast. It's all two hours just sitting right there like a big juicy tomato.

The news continues on CNN with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer back in The Situation Room. I'll see you tomorrow.