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The Lead with Jake Tapper

U.S., Russia Hold 4-Hour Peace Talks Without Ukraine; New Video Shows Delta Plane Crash And Flip On Runway; White House Claims Musk Not Running DOGE; 88-Year-Old Pope Francis Has Pneumonia In Both Lungs. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired February 18, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: He's actually believed to be about five or six weeks old.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Rescuers from the nearby mystic aquarium swooped in. They think he was following his instincts to flee areas where other seals might hurt him. They plan to rehabilitate the pup, with the goal of eventually releasing him back into the wild when he's ready.

I don't know if he was fleeing other seals, or maybe just looking for a Popeye's chicken sandwich.

KEILAR: Yeah.

SANCHEZ: What do you think?

KEILAR: Some pizza maybe.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. Some pizza.

KEILAR: Some really good pizza. He's so cute, though.

SANCHEZ: Sweet little guy.

KEILAR: Yep.

SANCHEZ: Hey. THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now. Thanks for joining us.

(MUSIC)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: High level conversations about Ukraine without Ukraine.

THE LEAD starts right now.

The U.S. and Russia just advanced their talks on how to end Russia's war on Ukraine. But they left out the leaders of Ukraine. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy sounds more than a little annoyed as he warns no decision should be done behind his back from Kyiv to Moscow to Washington, D.C. We're live in all the key places where these decisions are going down.

Plus, who's really running DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. See what the Trump administration wrote in court filings about Elon Musk that seems to be completely at odds with what Trump and others have tried to portray.

And, upside down. After that unbelievable crash landing in Toronto, proving why the fasten seat belt sign is so important. More passengers are describing the terrifying moments as authorities investigate how in the world something like this could happen.

(MUSIC)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We start with our world lead, a four-hour meeting in Saudi Arabia about Ukraine's future without Ukraine or its European allies. At the table, Secretary of State Marco Rubio says he and his Russian counterparts will work to end the conflict in Ukraine in a way that's, quote, acceptable for all involved, unquote.

But Ukrainian President Zelenskyy says there's no deal without Ukraine's involvement, and he will not, quote, give in to Russia's ultimatums. Among the agreements between Russia and U.S. officials, the U.S. and Russia will appoint teams to help negotiate towards an end to the war, reestablish embassies in Washington, D.C., and Moscow.

There are two ways to look at this. President Trump is pushing a deal where, inevitably, Ukraine would have to make a concession, bringing not a perfect but necessary end to the staggering loss of life in Ukraine. Another way to look at it, Russia is getting exactly what it wants, status to appear with the U.S., room for economic growth and without European allies at the negotiating table. A boost to Russia's claim that it's in an unprovoked war against the entirety of NATO.

Secretary of State Rubio, National Security Advisor Mike Waltz say negotiations could not have started without President Trump. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE WALTZ, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Only President Trump can do that and in the Oval Office less than a week ago, both President Putin and President Zelenskyy both said to him, only you, president Trump, could drive this war to a conclusion.

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Donald Trump is the only leader in the world that could initiate that process. And today was the first step in -- in that process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN's covering this all over the world. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is traveling with the president in Florida. Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow. Nick Paton Walsh is in Ukraine's capital of Kyiv.

Nick, lets start with you.

Who do you see as the real winner coming away from today's talks between U.S. and Russian officials?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We don't have the entire picture, but publicly, it does seem like Moscow have got what they have long wanted, what long justifies their narrative that they're essentially at war with all of NATO, despite their unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, appear status negotiation, a concession, a weakening of the isolation that was put on to Moscow diplomatically when many diplomats were expelled by the United States after the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the United Kingdom, Sergei Skripal.

Now, the diplomacy is seemingly back on its feet. Embassies will staff up. That's an interesting concession, and part of this rehabilitation of Russia in the public image of the United States. Certainly, there was some discussion of Ukraine national security advisor Mike Waltz talking about the need for territorial concessions and security guarantees. The former -- well, that's something that I'm sure Russia would like to hear. It means them keeping land they've occupied, security guarantees might be music to Kyiv's ears.

But at the same time, it was clear this was more about the U.S. and Russia discussing their relationship. And Ukraine, while not even at the table, weren't even necessarily as high on the list as they might have thought. Trump's priority has been peace in Ukraine, but it seems like other matters may have occupied these talks. And we had a very stark reaction from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He was due in Saudi Arabia tomorrow, separate bilateral preplanned meeting.

But I think anybody realistically saw the coincidence as perhaps him trying to be around in the entrails of this meeting to maybe catch, glean something out of what had occurred. He canceled that meeting. It's now happening in the middle of March. And he angrily said, listen, these are meetings about Ukraine without Ukraine. I paraphrase here, and saying he didn't really care if any of his allies had unnecessary things to say about him.

So I think trying to remind those at the table in Riyadh that Ukraine is angrily demanding a seat in these peace talks.

[16:05:01]

Yes, indeed, we heard from Mike Waltz that Ukraine is important to this, as are the European allies that a key Trump aide at the weekend suggested weren't necessarily going to be involved in the peace talks at all. It's a constantly moving picture, but this Ukraine peace talk is going to be done by separate groups later.

And it was the Russian-U.S. relationship at the fore here. It seems to be improving, but frankly, it didn't solve everything this particular meeting. But the rehabilitation is continuing, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. From Kyiv, Ukraine, to Moscow, Russia, let's go to Fred Pleitgen. Fred, how did top Russian officials feel about the meeting?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there certainly is a lot of optimism right now here in Moscow after this meeting took place. The Russians certainly believe that they have an inroad once again with the Trump administration. And one of the things that we heard from the chief negotiators that the Russians put on the ground there in Riyadh, Jake, is that both of them said that both sides were listening to each other. They feel that the Trump administration is trying to understand Moscow, where the Biden administration didn't.

And quite frankly, in some cases, the Russians seem to believe that the Trump administration is closer to Russia's position on certain issues than the Trump administration is to its own European allies and to Kyiv as well. For the Russians, of course, they see all of this as a broader picture. They want nothing less, it seems, than a total reset with the United States. And they believe that they could get that with the Trump administration in office.

Of course, President Trump keeps talking about wanting to end the war in Ukraine. Certainly that's the main priority for the U.S. The Russians want that full reset. They want sanctions relief, and they also want better economic and diplomatic relations with the U.S. as well.

And Sergey Lavrov called this meeting very useful in the press conference right after the meeting took place.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: I think that the meeting was very useful. We didn't just listen to each other. We heard each other. And I think the American side certainly started to understand our side of the argument, which has been many times expounded by President Putin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: So the Russians, they're feeling that the both sides are hearing each other and that the U.S. understands or is trying to understand Russia's message.

Nevertheless, one of the things we have to keep in mind is that the Russians are also saying that any negotiations for a peace agreement or anything similar for Ukraine are going to be extremely difficult. One of the things, Jake, that we've been hearing today and also over the past couple of days, is the Russians laying out their red lines once again, Lavrov there saying today that any membership for Ukraine in NATO is off limits for the Russians, something they will not tolerate.

And they also have not made any inkling to say that they would give up any of the territory that they currently occupy inside Ukraine -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. From Moscow, Russia, to Washington, D.C., here in the United States, Jeff Zeleny.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio also mentioned, quote, extraordinary opportunities ahead for Russia and the U.S.

Tell us more about what he meant by that.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I mean, there is no better example of just the extraordinary change from one administration to another administration than the events unfolding right now.

I mean, President Biden's edict, we will not talk about Ukraine without Ukraine, that is obviously out the window, as we saw in the meeting in Riyadh today. And as the president remains here in Florida at his Mar-a-Lago resort, I'm told he was getting updates on these meetings throughout the day. But you heard his secretary of state talk about the economic opportunities.

It's almost as though Marco Rubio and the other advisers were looking ahead beyond resolving the Russia and Ukraine war, looking beyond those negotiations to resolving a very different row that, of course, has been a deeply underway for three years. That's the U.S. and Russia relations.

Of course, there are major imperatives in terms of doing business, the sanctions that have been imposed. But this is what the Trump administration is looking for long term. This is something that this president is looking forward to open up oil business again, start, sort of a free flow of commerce.

It is an extraordinary change. The sanctions that have been underway are still in place, of course, but the thaw has certainly been felt. But Senator -- Secretary of State Marco Rubio also said this very important. He said the key that unlocks the door to all these opportunities is the end to this conflict.

So that must come first, of course, but there is no doubt the president already thinking beyond that to what opportunities exist in Russia.

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, traveling with President Trump in West Palm Beach, Florida, thank you so much to all of you.

Joining us now to discuss, Republican senator from Arkansas, chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Senator Tom Cotton. He has a new book. It's called "Seven Things You Cant Say About China" and it's out today.

Thank you so much for being here, Senator. Good to see you.

I'm going to get to this in a second. But I do want to get to your view of what's going on. President Zelenskyy of Ukraine says there's no deal without Ukrainian

involvement. What do you make of what happened in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, today?

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): Well, I think what President Trump wanted to do is simply establish diplomatic channels with Russia to explore the contours of talks.

[16:10:03]

And, of course, we'll have to include President Zelenskyy, as President Trump himself has said, because it's a war between Ukraine and Russia.

So I think this was a first step towards having talks that will hopefully bring about a lasting truce, because we've got a real mess on our hands. I mean, Joe Biden tempted Putin to invade Russia or invade Ukraine in the first place. He pussyfooted around for three years, and I think his ultimate strategy was to lose. But just wait until after the election lose.

This is a mess that we've all been handed. We've got to make the best of it here in America and in Ukraine and in Europe. I think that's what President Trump is going to try to do.

TAPPER: What do you mean he tempted Putin to invade?

COTTON: Well, just a few weeks -- it was just a few weeks after the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan that Russia began to mount forces on Ukraine's border. I think Vladimir Putin saw that Joe Biden was a weak and timid leader and that he could be taken advantage of, unlike Donald Trump.

You know, Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine when Barack Obama was president. He invaded when Joe Biden was president. He didn't invade when Donald Trump was president.

TAPPER: Do you think any normalization measures going on right now sends the wrong message to President Xi Jinping of China that you write about, the idea that you can get away with invading a sovereign nation, and the United States will ultimately come and accept it.

COTTON: You know, it's unfortunate we're at this point. But again, were at this point because we inherited the mess from Joe Biden. I think it's inevitable that President Trump is going to have to negotiate with both President Putin and President Zelenskyy. His team is going to have to negotiate with both of those men's teams as well.

That may not have been the case back in 2022. If we had just allowed Ukraine to win fast at the very beginning of this war. But right now, it's inevitable that we have to sit down and have these negotiations, just like Ronald Reagan sat down multiple times with Mikhail Gorbachev, you know, four times in three years they had a summit.

It was just between the two of them. You didn't have all of NATO leaders there. They exchanged 40 different letters. Reagan even said he developed a bond and friendship with Gorbachev.

So I think it's inevitable that you have to take these steps to establish diplomatic channels and actually get to a lasting truce that protects Ukraine's future. And as J.D. Vance said last week, in Europe, its sovereign independence.

TAPPER: You know that even your fellow Republican, Senator Wicker, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, criticized the secretary of defense last week for basically giving up a number of concessions, including territorial concessions in Ukraine, NATO membership in -- I'm sorry, Ukraine membership in NATO.

In 2022, you mentioned -- you made a direct tie between American concessions to Russia and what you feared would be the wrong message China would take when it came to Taiwan.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

COTTON: It's not just Vladimir Putin and Europe that's watching. The rest of the world is watching. And most particularly, Xi Jinping is watching what happens in Ukraine. And if he sees the United States and the West faltering after a few months and pressing Ukraine to sue for peace while Russian troops are still on Ukrainian soil, he is much more likely to go for the jugular in Taiwan.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you worry at all that the concessions being dangled in front of Putin right now are more likely to make President Xi Jinping go for the jugular in Taiwan today, as you were concerned in 2022.

COTTON: Well, circumstances have changed since 2022. They've changed primarily on the battlefield. Ukraine had a chance to actually win back in 2022 and Joe Biden didn't allow them to. And we have a different president here in the United States.

And Vladimir Putin recognizes that. I think he respects and in some cases, in some ways fears Donald Trump and the way he did in Barack Obama and Joe Biden. That's why we didn't have an invasion of Ukraine in Donald Trump's first term.

But that's the case in all wars. Wars change, circumstances change, and what you might be able to get in terms of concessions from your adversary at one stage of the war is different from a later stage.

TAPPER: So the book we have now segued to your book, "Seven Things You Can't Say About China". And it's a -- it's a -- it's a very hawkish book. I disagree with very little of it myself personally, but talking about -- about China, China's an evil empire. China is preparing for war. China is waging an economic world war, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

One of the things you talk about, you're very critical of corporations willing to do business, kowtowing, for want of a better word, before the Chinese government. You write in your book: The Chinese communists covet Taiwan not merely to right a perceived, but parochial, historical wrong: they know that control of Taiwan would put China on the path to global dominance over the United States.

And here's what Elon Musk said in 2023, in an interview with CNBC on the subject.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPJ)

ELON Musk, TECH BILLIONAIRE : The official policy of China is that Taiwan should be integrated. One does not need to read between the lines. One can simply read the lines.

INTERVIEWER: Do you think --

MUSK: So I think there's a certain -- there's some inevitability to -- to the situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you have any concerns about Elon Musk, who has a lot of business interests in China? Obviously, you mention him in the book as being one of many people, along with Mark Zuckerberg and others, that you feel you have issues with how nice they've been to China.

[16:15:10]

Do you have any concerns about him being such a close advisor with President Trump?

COTTON: No, I don't. I mean, I wish that Tesla didn't have those big operations in China, but I wish the same of Ford and Coca-Cola and Apple and Caterpillar and a lot of American corporations. That's truly just been the story of Chinas economic world war over the last several decades of attracting all those companies into China and in some ways, America, making it easy for them to go to China.

But what Elon Musk said about Taiwan is true. That's very clear. That's their stated policy is that they want to annex and unify Taiwan back to the mainland.

What's also true is that the United States has said, at least going back to the 1970s, in the Taiwan Relations Act and across administrations of both parties, is that we will only support the stable, peaceful status quo about the Taiwan Strait. We will not support a forceful change to that status quo.

That may not be satisfactory to all parties, but its worked so far and I think it can continue to work if America is strong and resolute, helping Taiwan build up its military and building up our own military so we can deter a conflict over China, because there'll be no winners if there's a conflict over Taiwan, if China goes for the jugular and the United States stands back and doesn't aid Taiwan, or we come to Taiwan's aid -- again, there'll be no winners.

As Churchill said about war in the last century, the victors suffer almost as much as the vanquished. So the only way we can prevail is not to fight in the first place. By being strong and resolute and maintaining the peaceful status quo across the strait.

TAPPER: But do you think that President Trump will maintain, at the very least, the strategic ambiguity about whether or not the U.S. would ever militarily assist Taiwan if it were attacked, as opposed to like him or hate him? You obviously have your issues with them.

President Biden said -- said, you know, he wasn't very ambiguous. He was asked one time in Japan, I think it was, you know, would -- would we send troops? And he said, yes. He kind of like threw away the strategic ambiguity.

COTTON: Unfortunately, he did it four times in about 13 months, and all four times either he reversed himself or other White House aides reversed him.

TAPPER: Right.

COTTON: So I guess you had ambiguous strategic ambiguity, which is maybe the worst of both possible worlds.

Now, look, in his first term, President Trump maintained that longstanding policy of strategic ambiguity. He helped Taiwan build up its defenses. He built up our defensive. I have no reason to think that he's not going to do the exact same thing.

I think success for President Trump and the Trump administration on China would be that they hand off the football to the next administration. Four years from now, we're stronger, Taiwan is stronger, and there's been no conflict over Taiwan.

TAPPER: All right. Senator Tom Cotton, the new book, "Seven Things You Can't Say About China". It's out today. Senator Tom Cotton from the great state of Arkansas, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, new incredible accounts from inside that Delta flight that crash landed and then flipped upside down. How passengers made split second decisions as they tried to rush off the plane.

Plus, the new diagnosis -- diagnosis for the pope today, that adds even more concern about the 88-year-old's condition. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:00]

TAPPER: Our world lead now at Toronto Pearson International Airport in Canada. An investigation is underway into how exactly Delta Flight 4819 crashed, turned upside down and then caught on fire while attempting to land in windy and snowy conditions Monday. One passenger said the landing left passengers, quote, hanging like bats. Miraculously, all 80 passengers and crew on board survived.

CNN's Jason Carroll reports from Canada on the latest in this new investigation. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New video capturing the shocking moment a Delta commuter jet crash landed and flipped upside down Monday at Toronto's Pearson Airport.

DEBORAH FLINT, PRESIDENT & CEO, GREATER TORONTO AIRPORTS AUTHORITY: The crew of Delta Flight 4819 heroically led passengers to safety. I thank each and every one of these heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drop, everything. Drop it. Come on.

CARROLL: Those heroes swiftly and efficiently evacuated all 76 passengers off the aircraft after it crashed. As they crawled one by one out of the plane, passengers helped each other along the way.

PETE CARLSON, PASSENGER: You could see kind of row by row or area by area, people were checking one another out, making decisions about whether we would help one another with their straps, or if by doing that, would they be landing on somebody else.

CARROLL: One passenger said all seemed normal as the aircraft was on its final descent, but then suddenly a hard landing.

JOHN NELSON, PASSENGER: When we hit, it was just a super hard, like hit the ground and the plane went sideways. And I believe we skidded, like on our side and then flipped over on our back where we ended up, there was like a big fireball.

PETE KOUKOV, PASSENGER: There was no like real indication of anything. And then, yeah, we hit the ground and we were sideways, and then we were upside down, hanging like bats.

CARROLL: In the few days, leading up to the crash, Toronto received more snow than it had the entire previous winter. But officials say it's too early to answer if that was a factor in the crash.

FLINT: This would not be a time for us to have theory, or to speculate on what caused the crash.

CARROLL: Canadian officials say 21 people on board were injured. None were life threatening, and on Tuesday afternoon, officials said only two remained in the hospital. The incident comes as the aviation industry is still reeling from recent accidents involving an American Airlines commuter jet and a military chopper near Washington, D.C. A medevac jet in Philadelphia and a Bering Air flight near Nome, Alaska.

Passengers on board Flight 4814 say it's remarkable everyone survived.

CARLSON: I think the most powerful part of today was there was just -- just people. No countries, no nothing, it was just people together, helping each other.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And again, Jake, high praise for the cabin crew that did all that they could do to get everyone out safely.

[16:25:04]

And so, here's what's going to happen over the next 48 hours. The plane is going to remain where it is on the tarmac here at the airport, upside down. Inspectors are going to get in there, do their early part of their investigation in terms of trying to figure out exactly what caused this crash -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Jason Carroll in Toronto for us at the airport.

I want to bring in Joshua Schirard. He's a commercial airline pilot.

Joshua, I want to play that new video again, which shows the Delta plane coming in. And just as it touches the runway, the plane catches fire, it flips over, it slides along the runway.

As a pilot, after seeing this video, what do you think might have gone wrong here?

JOSHUA SCHIRARD, COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOT: Yeah. So after looking at the video and I saw the video early this morning and it definitely answered some questions, but brought up some other questions as well. So, clearly, we understand that now that the crash happened after landing on the runway, we didn't slide off the runway. So, now, we're looking at what could have caused that hard landing.

And was it hard enough to actually break that landing gear, or were there other issues prior some maintenance mechanical issues with that landing gear that that would cause it to not be able to withstand a firm landing?

I mean, this was definitely a firm landing. And we heard from the passengers that it was hard, but I feel like I've seen firmer -- firmer and have experienced harder landings than this with -- with no mechanical damage whatsoever. So -- so we still have a lot of questions to answer here as to exactly, you know, how that gear was able to collapse, which really was kind of the cause of the rest of this accident. And the reason that that plane started to roll and, and ultimately ended up on its roof.

TAPPER: Joshua, what are pilots trained to do in the event that the landing gear collapses?

SCHIRARD: Your biggest duty at that point is to do whatever you can to maintain directional control, do whatever you can to keep that airplane on the runway and upright as much as you can. Unfortunately, once you have a main gear collapse and that plane starts to -- starts to, of course, tumble out of control, there's very, very little that you can do -- really, you're at that point you are looking at trying to mitigate a lot of the damage afterward. Can we shut down the engines as fast as we can? Can we stop the fuel flow to keep that fuel from coming in from the wings?

And then once we come to a stop, how can we facilitate this evacuation? Coordinate the response of first responders and make sure we can safely get everyone out. That's really kind of the primary focus after an incident like that. But unfortunately, once that collision happens, we're kind of all at the mercy of physics, and were really just trying to mitigate further damage at that point.

TAPPER: There's a lot of praise, rightfully so, for how the planes crew safely evacuated everyone. How do pilots physically and mentally train for a potential crash, such as this one, where everything seems to go wrong?

SCHIRARD: So -- so a lot of it has to do with -- with that prior training and the training going into it. So these pilots are going to -- to training every six months, generally speaking. And when you go in there and you sit in a simulator for five days, you're not just taking off and landing and nice easy flights like you would on a daily basis. You spend five days every six months going through the worst disasters you can possibly recreate in an airplane, so that you understand how to deal with them when the time comes.

You know, unfortunately, one of the last things you want to hear a pilot say is, man, that's the first time I've ever done that in an actual airplane. We want to try to train and run over those -- those simulations as many times as we can so that we understand the process and it becomes a conditioned response.

When we have a stimulus happen, like a fire in an engine or a hard landing. It is muscle memory. It's a conditioned response of what we should do in order to mitigate that, that that emergency becoming even bigger.

TAPPER: All right, Joshua Schirard, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, who's really running DOGE, Trump's Office of Government Efficiency? The Trump administration says it is not actually Elon Musk. Well, then who is it? Who is calling the shots? The court filing that raises these questions, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:33:29]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, this quote: I am pleased to announce that the great Elon Musk, working in conjunction with American patriot Vivek Ramaswamy, will lead the Department of Government Efficiency, quote, DOGE.

That tweet, or whatever its called, was from Donald Trump, President Trump on November 12th, 2024. We should note, Ramaswamy stepped aside from DOGE before inauguration.

You would think, and frankly, we were all kind of under the impression that Elon Musk was in charge of DOGE. Yet, that is not what the Trump administration is saying now.

Let's jump right in with our panel. We have with us Jonah Goldberg, editor in chief of "The Dispatch", Edward Luce, U.S. national editor at "The Financial Times", and CNN's Kasie Hunt, who we should note will be anchoring a brand new show at this time slot starting March 3rd. It's called "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT". THE LEAD will be moving one hour later, 4:00 p.m. eastern.

Congratulations.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST, THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Be nice to these people. They're nice people.

HUNT: If they're your viewers, they are -- they are doing something right.

TAPPER: They are -- they are lovely people who tune in at 4:00.

HUNT: I'm really grateful. And I hope they'll -- I hope they'll stick around and then, of course, stay with you until 7:00.

TAPPER: Yeah. So we have seen Musk and Trump together. It seems like all the time they're together all the time.

DOGE has been dramatically, shall we say, reshaping the federal government, also gaining access to sensitive data from multiple agencies, from Treasury to the Department of Homeland Security. It sparked more than 70 lawsuits to date in a very -- in a new court filing, here's how the Trump administration now explains Musk's role.

Quote: Elon Musk has no actual or formal authority to make government decisions himself, they say, including personnel decisions and individual agencies.

[16:35:03]

He is apparently an employee of the White House office, not USDS or the U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization, and he only has the ability to advise the president or communicate the president's directives, like other senior White House officials, unquote.

That is news to me. I did not know that. How do you make sense of this?

HUNT: I mean, they're trying to have it both ways, right? It's as simple as that. They want -- and this is true in both kind of the semiotics and the way things look in terms of are there is there one president or are there two presidents in Trump and Elon Musk? And as well as you know what, when the rubber meets the road, they're trying to say, well, he's not actually responsible for any of it. So you can't sue him. You can't hold him accountable for any of this.

And it's going to be a question for both, for courts, for judicial courts, and also for the court of public opinion.

TAPPER: And when President Trump was just asked about Elon Musk during an executive order signing at Mar-a-Lago. Let's roll that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: Filing the White House said that Elon Musk is not a DOGE employee and has no authority to make decisions. Can you clarify for us --

(CROSSTALK)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, Elon Musk -- yeah, yeah, Elon is, to me, a patriot. So, you know, you could call him an employee. You could call him a consultant. You could call him whatever you want. But he's a patriot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, that's not really the question.

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. He also loves vanilla ice cream. I mean, you know, it's -- it's -- it's an interesting.

Look, I think there are a lot of different things going on here. Part of what this shows is they're making it up as they go along, right? I mean, what DOGE was on inauguration day or day after inauguration, and what it is now are different things. It's no longer about, you know, real cost savings. It's about streamlining and reinventing government and all these other things and purging the deep state.

But also, I think there's a legal argument here because they're -- they're -- Trumps lawyers, and Musk's lawyers are aware of the actual rules of being a principal officer under the Constitution and the American Procedure Administrative Procedures Act and all these things that apply. If you're an actual head of an agency, you have to be maybe approved by the Senate. They don't want to go through that.

TAPPER: Right.

GOLDBERG: You have to do disclosure about your finances. It doesn't want to do that.

So keeping it all vague and he's just an advisor probably fits a lot of considerations behind the curtain that we don't completely know all about yet.

TAPPER: This making it up as they go along, though, seems like a very strong theme. I mean, because we have been seeing this now. They fire all these people who are actually the ones in charge of like nuclear weapons, and then they bring them back and they fire all these people that are in charge of like detecting infectious diseases, and then they bring them all back.

GOLDBERG: That's why pencils have erasers. People make mistakes.

TAPPER: But it is a remarkable way to run a government or not.

EDWARD LUCE, U.S. NATIONAL EDITOR, FINANCIAL TIMES: It's a remarkable way to run a superpower as well. I mean, this is -- I have to pinch myself every day that this is actually happening. But if you cast your mind back just to last week when Musk was there with Trump in that bizarre oval office exposure, he was making that up as he went along. I mean, he was very much sort of riffing.

This was not a commanding performance from somebody who understood his job mission and was explaining what he was doing and how he was doing it. If you remember, he alleged billions of dollars in fraud. He alleged that the Social Security checks were going out to dead people, terrorists and fraudsters, and they promised that they would reveal on the DOGE website by Monday morning at the latest the evidence for these alleged mass fraud on the U.S. taxpayer. None of that's been provided.

So he was riffing. I don't think it's just Trump who's got a sort of designed chaos. He does like to manage. He does like people who work for him to be at each other's throats. That's been his trademark. But I think Musk himself is showing signs of riffing, let's put it that way.

TAPPER: That's a nice way to put it. Thanks to all.

And look out for Kasie's new show, "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" debuts in this time slot 4:00 p.m. Eastern on Monday, March 3rd. That's two weeks from yesterday.

THE LEAD also is on the move. We're going to slide an hour and be on the air from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. eastern every weekday right here on CNN, starts in two weeks from yesterday.

The Vatican is out today with a concerning new statement about the pope and his medical condition. But first, the absolutely heartbreaking announcement from the terrorist group Hamas about the two -- about the two youngest hostages kidnapped on October 7th, 2023.

We'll bring you that story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:58]

TAPPER: Back in our world lead and breaking news.

Moments ago, President Trump weighing in on the talks between his government and Russia to end Russian leader Vladimir Putin's three- year assault on Ukraine.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is traveling with President Trump. He's in Florida.

Jeff, what exactly did President Trump just say?

ZELENY: Well, Jake, the president is signing a couple of executive orders and really having his afternoon session with reporters at Mar- a-Lago, but taking the side, once again of Vladimir Putin, as we've seen really over the last week or so. But in striking new language, seeming to blame Vladimir Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian president, for the war.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think I have the power to end this war, and I think it's going very well. But today I heard -- oh, well, we weren't invited. Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it three years. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: You should have never started it. That is President Trump there talking about Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, not Vladimir Putin.

[16:45:02]

Of course, it was Russia that invaded Ukraine three years ago. And the president also there, sort of overlooking the fact, saying again and again, as he often does, that this war would not have started had he been in office. In fact, the Russian invasion of Ukraine started while President Trump was in office.

But it wasn't until three years ago that there was that full scale invasion of Ukraine.

So, Jake, once again, really as we've been monitoring the president's comments there, taking questions on Ukraine, he said the discussions went well in Riyadh. But again, just to putting the weight on the scale toward Russia in favor of Russia against Ukraine.

But he did have one notable thing as well to say. He said he would not object to a European soldiers and troops being in Ukraine as a peacekeeping force. That may be a deal breaker with Russia. But the bottom line overall, again seeming to blame the person who was not at the table, and that's President Zelenskyy -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yeah, that's Orwellian to blame an invaded country for their own invasion. Very bizarre. Not an honest interpretation of events.

Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

Also in our world lead today, devastating news from the terrorist organization Hamas today. The terrorist group plans to release the remains of four Israeli hostages on Thursday, four who were killed. And Hamas is saying that includes two of the youngest killed while in captivity, Kfir and Ariel Bibas.

The boys were just nine months old and four years old when Hamas kidnapped them on October 7th, 2023. Hamas also says, and on Saturday, they're going to free six living hostages.

CNN's Nic Robertson is in Jerusalem.

And, Nic, this Thursday release is going to be a tough moment for a lot of people, especially the people of Israel, who until only recently were praying that the Bibas children were still alive. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah. It's going

to be a horrible moment. Everyone in Israel knows that image of Shiri Bibas clutching under a blanket, trying to protect her two young sons, Kfir, nine months, and Ariel, four years old, just trying to protect them. And the fear in her face and being bundled away, and everyone wondering where they'd gone and if they were going to be okay, and marking the birthdays while they were in captivity of turning one, then turning two. They thought. They hoped until now.

I mean, Hamas a year and a half ago had said almost two years ago now, or year and a half ago almost had said that actually they were killed in a bombing, but there was never any evidence that the IDF could corroborate, and they could never say whether or not this was the case. And little bits of video would come out.

But I think, you know, this is a pain, an absolute agony that the nation has only just lived a few weeks ago. Quite simply, Yarden, Shiri's husband and the father of their two sons, was held hostage by Hamas and he was released. And when he was released, he was released to find out that his lovely family were dead or most probably dead.

So the nation is -- is going to go through this moment in a way, for a second time. But, of course, for him, for Yarden, the pain perhaps only begins there -- his family, shortly to begin their final journey home -- Jake.

TAPPER: Just awful. Nic Robertson, Jerusalem. Thank you so much.

We're going to go live to Rome next with the brand new update on the pope's condition.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:52:27]

TAPPER: Our faith lead now. New concerns for Pope Francis. The Vatican said today that doctors discovered pneumonia in both of the pope's lungs. The pope is 88-years-old. He was hospitalized Friday for bronchitis and a respiratory infection. CNN's Christopher lam is at the hospital where the pope is staying in Rome.

And, Christopher, what else are you hearing from the Vatican?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, this is a concerning development about the pope's condition. And it is what many in the Vatican feared when the pope said he had bronchitis for a number of days before his hospitalization, the pope was struggling to give speeches. He was asking aides to read his addresses.

And I saw him on the day of his hospitalization, and it was clear then he was finding it very difficult to speak due to these breathing difficulties. Now the Vatican say he has this complex, polymicrobial condition, which is a respiratory tract infection, which has lots of different factors behind it and is requiring different types of treatment. That's already been changed on two occasions while the pope has been in hospital.

Francis has been here at the Gemelli Hospital behind me for five days now. We are told by the Vatican that the pope is in good spirits. There have been people here praying for him outside the hospital. He's also received pictures by children who are in the hospital.

We are also told the pope has had breakfast this morning, that he's read the papers, but it's obviously a very unclear situation with regard to the pope's health. He's 88 years old. He has had respiratory infections in the past. Part of the top of his right lung was removed when he was a young man.

It all depends now on how the pope responds to the treatment. But it is unclear how long the pope is going to be in hospital for. There is no clear timetable and the public events of the pope for the coming days have been canceled.

We are following this very closely, Jake, and we will be updating as we get further developments from the Vatican tomorrow and in the coming days.

[16:55:01]

TAPPER: All right. Christopher Lamb in Rome, thank you so much.

Some breaking news here in the United States. A federal judge is blocking the Trump administration from firing a key government employee. There's also a key ruling in favor of the office of government efficiency, or DOGE, and its access to government data. The details on all of this coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, President Trump follows through on a signature campaign promise. Just moments ago, he signed an executive order to expand access to IVF treatments, making them more affordable. I'm going to talk to the senator from Alabama who influenced his decision momentarily.

Plus, chaos in the New York City mayor's office. Eric Adams headed for a face off with the state's governor over whether Adams will be removed from power.