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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Parrots Putin, Falsely Calls Zelenskyy A "Dictator"; DOGE Savings Claims Don't Add Up, CNN Finds Exaggerated Data. Seven Charged In Connection With Burglaries Of Athletes' Home; WAPO: Memo From Hegseth Orders Cutting 8 Percent From The Defense Budget In Each Of The Next Five Years; Musk's Doge Makes Cuts To 9/11 Health Program. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 19, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:43]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour we're going to have all the latest when it comes to the Pope's health. He was diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. We're going to have the details ahead live from Rome.

Plus, captured, authorities arrest seven men, linking them to a nationwide string of burglary targeting the homes of professional NBA and NFL athletes. How did they pull this off?

And leading this hour, quote, "living in disinformation." First, President Trump falsely claims that Ukraine started the war against Ukraine. And then President Trump takes issue after the president of Ukraine notes President Trump's proclivity to ingest and then repeat falsehoods. Today, Trump slammed the Ukrainian president, calling him a, quote, "dictator." Here are just some of the other false claims Trump is making about Ukraine and Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But today I heard, oh, well, weren't invited. Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it three years. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.

I believe that's the reason the war started, because Biden went out and said that they could join NATO.

We have a situation where we haven't had elections in Ukraine. Well, we have martial law, essentially martial law in Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, it is true that Ukrainian President Zelenskyy has suspended elections during this war, which Ukraine's constitution allows. But for the president of the United States to call Zelenskyy a dictator and then to suggest over and over that Ukraine started the Russian war on Ukraine. Well, it's reminiscent of a different fictitious leader and a different time, quote, "claiming that black is white in contradiction of the plain facts. It means a loyal willingness to say that black is white. It means also the ability to believe that black is white and more to know that black is white and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary."

That is the era we are in now. Black is white. CNN's Kaitlan Collins is here with us in studio.

Kaitlan, why is Trump asserting that Ukraine is responsible for the Russian attack on Ukraine? And why is he calling Zelenskyy democratically elected a dictator and not the dictator of Russia, Vladimir Putin.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The guy who doesn't have honest elections or kills off his opponents --

TAPPER: Yes.

COLLINS: -- and jails them in those elections. This is a sentiment that Trump has held for some time where he has cast a lot of blame on President Zelenskyy for this war. He actually has said this privately for a long time. He also said it publicly several months ago in October of 2024. What's different now though, is he's the president and he's the one leading these negotiations and really is at the center of them and how this war could end.

And the how has really been the big question there. And this comes after the 90 minute phone call he had with Putin last week, also a call with Zelenskyy where he was saying afterwards that it was a good call. But it was after Zelenskyy came out in the early hours of this morning saying that he wanted there to be more truth within Trump's team and that he was worried that Trump was in this circle and web of disinformation that then Trump came out and called him a dictator without elections and was blasting him as failing, as unpopular, as essentially illegitimate as he was arguing because Ukraine has not held elections in the three years since Russia invaded Ukraine.

And really the question that Republicans are having coming out of this who do not agree with Trump, you know, casting Zelenskyy as a dictator over Putin as a dictator, is whether this weakens their position and what it means for them as these negotiations are still continuing at a very fast pace to where we could see Trump and Putin sitting down together potentially very soon.

TAPPER: Yes. So, I mean, Zelenskyy was not saying anything inaccurate. Trump, and it's not just about Russia and Ukraine, all sorts of items. Trump surrounds himself in a misinformation silo. I mean, maybe he shouldn't have said that given his position, Zelenskyy.

I gather that's what Vice President Vance was suggesting when he criticized Zelenskyy for publicly criticizing Trump.

COLLINS: But he wasn't even really -- I mean, maybe it was the most overt criticism from Zelenskyy that we've seen of Trump. But Zelenskyy is politically savvy. I mean, we've seen that he knows when to go and make his case to the audience in the U.S. or in other European nations, as he did after Russia invaded and they needed support. In this situation, he was responding after Trump was saying a few days ago that Ukraine needed to have an election, which is a Kremlin talking point about that. Yes, it's a real conversation that happens in Ukraine.

[17:05:06]

But what Trump is saying there, in terms of how difficult this is when it comes to holding an election, I mean, we've seen Republican senators who went to Ukraine and had the position that Ukraine should still have elections and then leave Ukraine and say actually it's really impossible to have an election right now. And the sentiment on the ground is not for that. Senator Lindsey Graham, who is a close ally of Trump's is someone who said that himself. And so, when Vance comes out and says you shouldn't criticize Trump, obviously from a tactical perspective, you're a foreign leader and you are -- you do need the Trump administration on your side. But I think the frustration was bubbling to the surface with Zelenskyy of being left out of the talks in Saudi Arabia, feeling like they're not having a seat at the table, despite Trump telling me last week that Ukraine would be at that table.

TAPPER: Yes.

COLLINS: And the question of what that looks like going forward. But if you want to know what Trump's position is on this and how he's viewing this going into these talks where he is going to sit down with Putin as he said soon, you can see it in his Truth Social post.

TAPPER: Yes, that's quite a thing. You know, Putin should have an election he can run against Alexei Navalny. Oh wait, Navalny was murdered. I forgot.

Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. And if you want more Kaylan Collins, more of her reporting on "The Source," that's tonight at 9:00 Eastern here on CNN, only on CNN, I should note.

While American policymakers digest Trump's blatant disinformation, Russia loves it. They're relishing it. Today's state run media network RT praised Trump for bashing Zelenskyy. They reposted Trump's Truth Social tirade, adding, quote, "How long can Zelenskyy now last," unquote. Let's go to CNN's Nick Paton Walsh who is in Ukraine's capital of Kyiv.

And Nick, Trump also told reporters yesterday at his Florida resort that Zelenskyy's approval rating was at 4 percent. A poll conducted by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology shows that it's at 57 percent, for whatever that's worth. How are Ukrainians that you talk to feeling about Zelenskyy, about Trump, about all of it?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Look, I mean, ultimately I think it's fair to say that over the three years, the war, Zelenskyy's popularity has slid a little. But it's not slid to 4 percent. That is essentially a Kremlin talking point to Moscow have relentlessly emphasized the belief they have bizarre from an authoritarian country themselves. Zelenskyy is somehow not legitimate because he hasn't held elections suspended through martial law.

The 57 percent figure was cited by Zelensky himself. He said he'd work in the weeks ahead to reiterate that number, to do more polling to essentially confirm it. But look, the concept of elections here in wartime, impossible to imagine how that would even happen, frankly, in peacetime. I've been here when Russia's meddled in elections that have happened without their own air assaults raging most nights. We've heard actually anti-air defenses behind us in just the last hour or so.

So, to have elections, they'd have to have a ceasefire. They'd have to deal with potentially a million people on the front lines voting millions abroad as refugees voting to electoral reform. And then the possibility that Russia will try and interfere with that. It's ultimately going to lead to whoever's the victor there having huge questions over the legitimacy. And that's really, I think, what Moscow have been trying to do by sowing this idea of the need for elections to make Zelenskyy feel like he has to talk about this to justify his position when really this hasn't been a topic in the minds of many Ukrainians for some time.

They want elections at some point, but ultimately they want the war to end in a peaceful way that they can live with and get back to normal life without a Russian threat, first, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. And just on the note of Zelenskyy having a 57 percent approval rating in Ukraine, it is worth noting that President Donald Trump's approval rating is currently 45 percent, according to Gallup. Thank you. Be safe.

Joining us now, historian Jeffrey Engel. He's director of the center for Presidential History at Southern Methodist University. And also joining us, CNN Senior Political Commentator and former Republican congressman from Illinois, Adam Kinzinger.

Kinzinger -- Congressman Kinzinger, let me start with you. Why do you think Trump is saying these things about Ukraine and Zelenskyy?

ADAM KINZINGER, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Because, look, Zelenskyy said something mean about him and because Donald Trump truly believes this. Let's be clear. Can we get past this idea that Trump is playing chess and he's really just getting Europe to step up. He has said over and over that he has an affection towards Russia. He said he has an affection towards Vladimir Putin. It's time for us to believe him.

And the crazy thing here, Jake, is Russia is losing this war. They've lost twice as many men casualty wise as the U.S. did in World War II. And they have nothing to show for it. And Donald Trump is giving them a lifeline.

TAPPER: Jeffrey, you were quoted in the "New York Times" saying, quote, "We've never seen anything on the scale of what Donald Trump's new administration is doing. It's not just a reversal of previous administration policies, which we always expect to see a little bit of, but a reversal of the fundamentals of American foreign policy since 1945." You said that last week. I imagine you feel just as strongly today, if not more so.

JEFFREY ENGEL, DIRECTOR, SMU CENTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY: Yes. There are actually very, very few things that we can consistently say every American administration, Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, since 1945 have believed in. Two of them are fundamental to what Trump is not doing right now. The first is to ensure that Russia is not the dominant power in Europe. But secondly, and I think more importantly, actually, it's the fact that American policymakers have always wanted the United States in Europe since 1945 because they don't really trust Europeans.

[17:10:26]

They don't really trust Europeans to take care of their own security. I mean, the last time that the United States left Europe after a world war, after World War I, well, things didn't turn out so great. So we haven't left since 1945, and things have worked out pretty well. So what I'm hearing in this discussion about Ukraine is, yes, Ukraine is the small term picture, but the long term picture I hear -- I think, is the exclusion of our European allies and the fact that European allies are starting to make their own plans to go alone without the United States.

TAPPER: So, Congressman Kinzinger, let me play devil's advocate for a second. Let's say that Trump is saying, look, I want to end this conflict, and you don't end the conflict without getting Putin to agree to get out of Ukraine. And look, Russia is a strong nation and it's good for us to have alliances, especially vis-a-vis China. What would you say to somebody who makes that argument?

KINZINGER: Well, I mean, the problem is that's exactly not what Donald Trump is saying either. I mean, what he's saying is Vladimir Putin's a good guy. He gets along with them. You know, Ukraine started this war. I mean, the fact, even if Donald Trump believed this stuff, which he doesn't like, he really, again, he's affectionate towards Putin, the moral victory he's giving to the Russians and the moral attack he's given to the Ukrainians is going to cost lives.

And what he has done more than anything actually is probably unite Ukrainians, though, behind Zelenskyy. I mean, even Zelenskyy's potential opponent, Zaluzhnyi, has said, now's not the time for an election. We can't pull it off. But Donald Trump has been feeding Russian talking points right back to the American people. And there's no way that he's actually on Ukraine side when he's knowingly doing that.

TAPPER: And Jeffrey, some Republican lawmakers have come out to denounce the dictator comment, others have not. Indiana Senator Jim Banks is a big MAGA guy. He responded to a post. The post said, "Trump calls Zelenskyy a dictator without elections who's done a terrible job. GOP senators don't agree at all with this.

Unclear if they will speak out." But Senator Banks quoted that and said, "Not all GOP senators." So, there is a market for this among the MAGA faithful, not just among the populace, but also on Capitol Hill.

ENGEL: Yes. I mean, we've really seen a complete reversal of the Republican Party historically from being one that was, of course, opposed to dictatorial regimes like the Soviet Union or Russia, and now one that's fully embracing it. It's really astounding. And I think one way to think about this is kind of use an old baseball adage to say that when you're trying to decide what to do, maybe take out your starting pitcher. You say to yourself, what would the other side not want?

Well, the truth of the matter is what we're doing right now, what Trump is doing, is exactly what the Kremlin wants. It's exactly what the Kremlin wants in terms of giving the Kremlin more credibility in Europe. It's exactly what the Kremlin wants in terms of destroying the fabric of NATO and sowing distrust and increasing the likelihood that there's going to be an independent European operation or an independent European army in the future. So basically, Donald Trump is doing exactly what for 80 years the United States has tried to keep its enemy from doing.

TAPPER: All right. Jeffrey Engel and Adam Kinzinger, thanks to both you. Appreciate it.

The Trump administration claims it saves $8 billion by cutting a contract with ICE. But a CNN investigation found that claim was not accurate. And now that's raising questions about the so called wall of receipts. Plus a nationwide burglary spree, thwarted police arresting a highly organized group stealing from the homes of professional athletes. How they were captured ahead.

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[17:17:59]

TAPPER: In our politics lead DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency claims that they're saving taxpayers billions of dollars. A closer look shows their math doesn't quite add up, at least not as of now. New CNN reporting reviewed DOGE's public wall of receipts and found that it vastly overstated cost cuts. They claimed, for example, $8 billion in savings from a canceled contract. It was actually $8 million, not billion.

This is hardly the only example. CNN reporting also found DOGE's claims rely on misleading accounting using worst case spending scenarios rather than actual costs. So, does this efficiency drive really deliver the savings and the streamlining of bureaucracy that it's promising?

Joining us now, CNN's new Senior Political and Global Affairs Commentator Rahm Emanuel, the former U.S. Ambassador to Japan, the former White House chief of staff under Barack Obama, the former mayor of Chicago, former member of Congress leadership, I should add.

Ambassador, before we get to DOGE, I do want to ask you about your response to what President Trump is saying about Russia and Ukraine. Having been the ambassador to Japan, an important U.S. ally. What's your take on it all?

RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, you're looking at this, and I would say to everybody that writes about this, America is no longer we had a debate about internationalism versus isolationism. And Donald Trump is not an isolationist. He's an interventionist. And he's an interventionist on behalf of President Putin.

You know, I just came back from Japan where karaoke is a entertainment art form. And I'm literally watching this. And you see Donald Trump, you hear Donald Trump, but it's all of President Putin's words coming out of his mouth. Every item is exactly that.

Now, if you know the history post1945, NATO was created basically to keep America in Europe, Russia out of Europe and Germany down. And we're doing the opposite, which is why you have the reaction not only in Europe, but in many quarters of the United States, which is the fact we're not just kind of tweaking, altering, we're fundamentally turning upside down. A policy that has successfully worked since 1945. And we're on the 80-year history of the end of the war. This has been one of the most successful efforts in the sense of what NATO has done.

[17:20:12]

Which is why when the war started, countries like Sweden and Finland wanted to join the United States. This is really dangerous, not just for Europe, because as Prime Minister Kishida said at this, obviously at the Singapore conference years ago, he talked about the fact that Ukraine today, it could be Asia tomorrow. And nothing stays within its region or its border, it has ramification reverberates later on. And the aftershocks will be felt all over the world when you legitimize what President Putin has done to Ukraine and what the President has done by literally going item by item and giving President Putin's basically all his negotiating positions and conceding them up front has left. There's not a negotiation here if the United States is in the room.

And one of the things that happened the other day is the President's team talked about, well, they were shuttle diplomacy, mediating. You never saw the alternative of the U.S. sitting opposite the Ukrainians.

TAPPER: Yes.

EMANUEL: You saw one representative go to Ukraine who wasn't even in the room.

TAPPER: Yes. I want to ask you about DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. They claim they've saved taxpayers $55 billion. CNN reporting shows --

EMANUEL: Yes.

TAPPER: -- that much of that number is built on inaccurate or misleading accounting. What does it tell you? And as somebody who worked for Congress and the city of Chicago and the Obama administration and the Biden administration, do you think that there is an effort that could be done to meaningfully reduce the size of government and trim out the fat?

EMANUEL: Look, Jake, two points. Yes. One, there's an aggregation of all the inspector general reports. The Last aggregation was 2023. The one for 2024 hasn't come out, but 2023 was $93.1 billion.

It accumulates all the reports and adds them up. You could put them on the floor and literally deal with $93 billion of savings right there. The second item, under President Clinton, Vice President Gore led the reinvention effort. It led to a piece of legislation that reduced the workforce in the federal government by 273,000 people. It passed 99 to one in the U.S. Senate and 391.

So I think it was 17, that's by memory. But it was a massive vote and it was the lowest level of federal headcount since Dwight Eisenhower. So there's an approach here.

The concept is right. But as you know, in this approach, they're literally firing people then realizing the consequences, hiring them back. The biggest thing is going to be you have fired people like scientists at CDC, like the people that work at the Food and Drug Administration in the middle of what could be one or two mutations away from the bird flu. That's going to have massive consequences where you have human to human, not only exposure, but able to transfer an illness.

And if you get that without the scientists, without the professionals on the spot, the consequences are severe. So there's a right way and a wrong way. And I know on the flip of the coin here we're going about this all the wrong way. Efficiencies. Yes,

There's a report $93 billion. We can get them from savings that way. And there's a history of finding headcounts for reduction. It's just the administration's not decided to do it this way. They're doing it the hard way.

That one passed the Congress. It's old fashioned. You kind of introduce legislation, it passes, you sign it into law.

TAPPER: Rahm Emanuel, thank you so much. Good to see you, sir.

A wild burglary spree targeting multiple athletes across the country finally comes to an end. Police say a Chilean theft ring is behind the break in. To live report next.

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TAPPER: In our sports lead, seven men have been charged in connection with a series of burglaries targeting professional athletes across the country. An FBI complaint alleges that the men belong to a highly organized, quote, "Chilean theft group." Some big names of victims include Joe Burrow and Travis Kelce and Patrick Mahomes whose homes were broken into last year. CNN's Polo Sandoval has the latest. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While Milwaukee Bucks forward Bobby Portis was on the NBA court last November, authorities say a team of burglars was stealing nearly one and a half million dollars worth of property out of his home. The hit is detailed in a newly unsealed federal criminal complaint.

In it, FBI agents share a selfie obtained through a search warrant showing alleged members of a so called Chilean South American theft group. They smile and show off their loot, including luxury watches and a safe, notice one wearing a Chief's top. Investigators suspect some of these men also hit the Kansas City homes of Chief's quarterback Patrick Mahomes and tight end Travis Kelce in October. Prosecutors suspect seven Chilean nationals of comprising a burglary ring targeting the homes of pro football, basketball and hockey players. According to court records, they traveled around the country to the homes of pro athletes using fake IDs to rent cars and hotels.

PAUL VIOLLIS, CEO, VIOLLIS GROUP INTERNATIONAL: They conduct due diligence on who the marks are. Then they conduct surveillance to see what patterns of behavior are. They then go further and conduct a little bit more investigation into building plans to see points of access. Is this an entire Wi-Fi system? How do I get into the house?

Does it have a backup generator? They put these things together. They select the mark and the time and that's how they have a high probability of success.

SANDOVAL (voiceover): Paul Viollis heads an international security firm serving high profile and high earning clients. He's not surprised an alleged criminal ring is targeting celebrity homes, especially athletes with public schedules and habits of showing off their luxury goods.

VIOLLIS: We need to stop it from within. And the best way to do that is for the individual athlete, the entertainer, the homeowner to take control of their own homes. Spend more attention on what they are sending out in social media. Don't telegraph your life.

SANDOVAL (voice-over): The millions in stolen property are funneled through a fencing network according to federal investigators who just this month were led to New York City's Diamond District. In a separate investigation they charged two men suspected of working with South American theft groups as middlemen to sell merchandise stolen from an NFL star.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL: And long before these charges were released by federal authorities, the FBI has been closely tracking and investigating these form of high profile burglars. In fact, they've even warned the NFL late last year as well, Jake, telling them how these sort of criminals are actually exploiting team schedules so they can know when some of these team members are away out of town and playing. They're also warning about their tactics which really vary from the more basic like posing as joggers or lawn care workers to conduct surveillance to the more advanced like using various high tech pieces of equipment including WiFi jamming equipment to mess with those wireless cameras. So certainly highly sophisticated and well informed groups. Jake?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All right. Polo Sandoval, thanks so much. Fascinating and disturbing. Joining us now to discuss CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, John Miller. And John, these burglaries were nationwide. Seven men that they -- that they caught. That's -- that's a lot of people. But that can't be the whole organization, can it?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, this is a macrame of multiple organizations. You have this Chilean crew, but there are multiple Chilean crews but you've got Colombian crews, you have Venezuelan crews, you have crews that work together from these different countries and they will fly in on tourist visas, do their string of crimes and fly home. Some of them that were rounded up by the FBI and ICE in Newark were here illegally.

They were wreaking havoc across the New Jersey region with these high end burglaries. So this is a thing that attracted attention, Jake, because these were big football stars and sports stars but they target all kinds of people. One group will do restaurant owners, another will do jewelry store owners, another will do sports and so on. This just put it on the public face.

TAPPER: And what more can these athletes do to improve their own security? Because even if they go dark on social media, I mean their schedules are out there. I mean Mahomes and Kelce were not going to be at home on Super Bowl -- Bowl Sunday. Maybe they should have been. But that's a whole other story.

MILLER: So there's, so there's a vulnerability there which is in some of these cases, we, the crime victim can be our worst enemies because they're on social media, they're out in clubs and places where they're showing giant diamond encrusted Rolex watches and chains and -- and a lot of bling. When they come in and out of the stadiums, you'll see them, you know, dressed to the nines in designer clothing.

Jake, when you look at these hits, you know, $100,000, $167,000, $300,000, they're displaying the merchandise and of course, their sports schedule dictates when they'll be away. And the research that these crews do ahead of time is a lot of homework so that they can get in and get out and get the stuff which they were doing.

TAPPER: Yes. John Miller, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. I'm glad they caught those guys.

[17:33:40]

Defense officials warn the Trump administration's potential budget cuts could weakened military with a plan to slash forces expected in less than a week. We'll have details on this breaking news, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: New in our Politics Lead, a senior defense official tells CNN that defense officials fear pending firings at the Pentagon could, A, break the law and B, hurt military readiness. "The Washington Post" adds to that in their news report. "The Post" reporting that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth wants to see plans to cut 8 percent from the defense budget in each of the next five years. Dan Lamothe is -- is one of the three bylines on that "Washington Post" breaking news story. Dan, thanks for joining us. So your reporting cites a memo ordering senior leaders to develop plans in less than a week. Do the orders spell out who could be terminated?

DAN LAMOTHE, MILITARY AFFAIRS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: The orders focus exclusively on the budget. And then we've also got this separate conversation of firings. So kind of in parallel and, you know, combined. I mean, the Pentagon really put in a light we don't usually see it in.

TAPPER: Does that memo state what programs or employees will be saved no matter what?

LAMOTHE: It lists 17 programs that specifically are sort of exempt from the -- the budget conversation. A lot of things that would make sense in the context of recent conflicts, one way, attack drones, submarines, missile defense, things like that you've seen in recent conflicts. But it leaves everything else pretty much on the table seemingly.

TAPPER: You note that Pete Hegseth for years criticized Democrats for not funding the Pentagon enough, but this would counter that, I suppose.

LAMOTHE: Yes. If carried out to its fullest extent, this would mark a very, very stark budget cut for the Pentagon. You know, we go back a decade or so. You know, many of us remember the sequestration cuts and how, you know, angrily a lot of Republicans responded to those. These are really very similar cuts if carried out in full.

TAPPER: All right. Dan Lamothe, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Great reporting.

Also on our Politics Lead, DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency is leaving a trail of cuts and now the impact is hitting 9/11 responders and survivors. DOGE order terminations and buyouts have led to a 20 percent reduction in the staff at what's called the World Trade Center Health Program that provides lifesaving care to more than 130,000 first responders and survivors. And families and advocates are warning that these cuts will mean life and death delays for those first responders battling cancer and respiratory diseases and other 9/11 related illnesses.

[17:40:17]

Our next guest knows this fight personally. His name is Anthony Gardner. His brother Harvey was lost in the attacks. And until Saturday, Anthony was the public affairs specialist at the World Trade Center Health Program. Thanks for joining us. I'm sorry about your brother. So the CDC houses --

ANTHONY GARDNER, FORMER PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST, WORLD TRADE CENTER HEALTH PROGRAM: Thank you.

TAPPER: -- your program, the WTC program. And CNN reported then on Fri -- reported on Friday that thousands of health probationary workers, people who work for the CDC and HHS and others could lose their jobs, including 1,300 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Now you worked there until Saturday. Were you considered a probationary worker? And how -- how many of your colleagues at the World Trade Center Health were impacted?

GARDNER: Well, thanks again Jake, for the opportunity to -- to raise awareness about this and the importance of the work that's being done every day at the program. So yes, I was in a probationary status simply because I was in my position for a year and a half. The position required a two year period, but I actually worked at the program for -- for three years because I started as a contractor. And when the federal position opened, I applied and went through the process and -- and was hired for it.

So a number of my colleagues who, you know, bring a wealth of expertise in -- in nursing and -- and the medical field, et cetera. They were in probationary status simply because they moved into merit positions. So a number of these cuts at the program were to staff that had a wealth of experience and knowledge in treating sick 9/11 responders and survivors.

And this program, frankly, before Saturday evening when we got this cut of, you know, nearly 16 of us probationary employees was -- was operating with short staff to begin with to do the work that Congress requires that we do every day. So I'm really hopeful and urging Secretary Kennedy to take a look at this, reconsider these cuts, make the program whole, certainly spare it from future cuts because the -- the mission is -- is sacred.

Responders and survivors joined with elected officials from both sides of the aisle and -- and fought for many years for this program to ensure that people would have this lifeline, that they would get the care they need if they were suffering from conditions connected to their exposures on 9/11 and during the aftermath. So for me, it's a very personal call. It's not a job, it's -- it's a mission. And it's one that I -- I'm inspired to work alongside all those public servants at the health program and I hope we have the opportunity to do our job.

TAPPER: Practically speaking, what does it mean for the program that 16 of you were laid off? How will this impact those who have various illnesses because they were first responders on 9/11?

GARDNER: Right. So these cuts cross -- cut across all of the department teams. So we have people in medical benefits that were cut. So for our program, for a responder survivor to receive treatment for say, cancer, they're seen in the clinics that the -- that the program oversees, right, the 9/11 health clinics, or with their provider, let's say that -- that provider identifies thyroid cancer. So they'll submit a certification request to the program in order to have that treatment begin for that -- that responder.

And so the people on the program side, some of the people that were just terminated this past weekend, are those very people that review and approve those certifications that allow that treatment to move forward. So your -- these cuts are, you know, need to be reversed as soon as possible because there -- this will ultimately lead to delays for certification of treatment.

And it could be from a range of conditions, from mental health conditions that the program covers, like post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety to cancers. So this is literally life and death for our members, and they deserve better. This program was, you know, created by an act of Congress after responders and survivors gave their all and -- and lobbied for years for this care.

And so, you know, we -- we are very hopeful that once Secretary Kennedy takes a closer look at this, he's going to see that these are going to -- these cuts are going to have some substantial impacts on those 9/11 heroes.

[17:45:02]

TAPPER: Anthony Gardner, thank you so much, and may your brother's memory be a blessing.

Coming up, what are the odds that an asteroid could strike Earth? It's enough to have astronomers concerned. I'm going to talk to a NASA official about the potential for an asteroid strike in the next seven years.

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TAPPER: Our Out of This World Lead is a story that might rock the world. NASA and the European Space Agency are both upping the odds on a newly discovered asteroid hitting Earth in seven years. The space rock is named 2024 YR4. Our next guest studies asteroids and even has a main belt asteroid renamed in her honor. That would be NASA's acting planetary defense officer, Dr. Kelly Fast. Dr. Fast, what more do we know about this asteroid?

[17:50:11]

DR. KELLY FAST, NASA ACTING PLANETARY DEFENSE OFFICER: Well, there's actually good news, Jake, because the latest observations from last night have actually revised the impact probability downward. And so it just shows that the system is working, that the activities of NASA's Planetary Defense Coordination Office and the worldwide community. We're doing what we're supposed to be doing. And this is good news.

TAPPER: So it's 3.1 percent the -- the -- the odds, right, the -- the chance that this asteroid will hit Earth, that's still pretty slim, but it's nothing, 3.1 percent. So here's our fears -- here's our fears. What would happen if YR4 does in fact hit Earth?

FAST: Well, the latest actually, and -- and this is kind of hot off the presses again today, it's down at 1.5 percent. TAPPER: Oh, OK.

FAST: And you can find more at NASA.gov/planetarydefense. But we don't know until we know. And so that's why it's important to keep tracking it every night. And it is of a size that could do damage should it impact. And so that's why NASA does spend the time to search the skies, searching for asteroids that could pose a future impact threat to Earth and to determine their orbits. And just so we have that luxury of time of knowing, just like in this situation with 2024 YR4, very small impact probability, but something that we want to keep an eye on.

TAPPER: What are scientists doing now to learn more about the asteroid? And is there anything that can be done outside of, you know, sending Ben Affleck and Bruce Willis into space to blow it up?

FAST: Well, we are still in that information gathering stage and NASA's Planetary Defense Coordination Office and all the different projects that -- that are funded to do this work to track asteroids and calculate their orbits, that's ongoing, as well as our European Space Agency colleagues and many others within the International Asteroid Warning Network that NASA coordinates.

And so that's really the first order of planetary defense, is to get that information, to know, is there something that could pose a threat? And then if we, in any given situation, we always say it depends on the asteroid, on how far in advance it's found its size, its orbit. And so as we're gathering information in this case that would inform whether there could be an option in space, let's say, with a spacecraft or even just knowing where it could impact on the Earth, kind of like with -- with storms and such, or as we're finding, you know, the odds are very high that it's just going to pass right by the Earth.

TAPPER: So, Doc, I -- I -- I'm assuming if this is seven years away and we know about it's pretty big. How big?

FAST: Well, based on the brightness of the asteroid, it's estimated to be about 40 to 90 meters in size. And so that's a decent size, but it's not even as large as the objects that NASA has been tasked to find, the 140 meter and larger asteroids. We want to find all of them that could pose a future impact threat. It's a way of kind of judging our progress, what kind of progress we're making. So as even finding something this size is really valuable. Because even though our atmosphere does a very good job protecting us and disintegrating the stuff that can come in from -- from outside Earth's atmosphere, this is something that could do blast damage. It would maybe not reach the ground intact, but could do damage in any case. And so that is why we are continuing to try to gather as much information as possible, even in this situation where the impact probability is so low.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Kelly Fast from NASA, thank you so much. Fascinating stuff.

[17:53:47]

Positive signs in the health of Pope Francis. We're live in Rome with the latest, next.

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TAPPER: Our Faith Lead now, the Vatican announced that Pope Francis is showing some slight improvement. The 88-year-old leader of the Roman Catholic Church has been hospitalized since Friday and has been diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. Let's bring back CNN's Christopher Lamb, who's live from Rome. And Christopher, what is the latest from the Vatican about the Pope's health?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, encouraging signs tonight, Jake, about the Pope's health. For the first time since he was hospitalized, we've heard the word improvement from the Vatican officially about the Pope's condition. Vatican sources also saying the Pope's been able to sit in a chair, he's able to breathe on his own, that his heart is holding up. We also heard today that the Pope met with Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister, and -- and she said that the Pope was in good humor and was alert and reactive. So encouraging signs this evening, Jake.

TAPPER: And prior to his hospitalization, the Pope had been pretty outspoken in his opposition to President Trump when it comes to the standards and the -- the policies having to do with undocumented immigrants, how -- how does that square, that position and that -- that outspokenness square with the rest of the church?

LAMB: Well, Jake, I think the pope was setting down a marker with his intervention on his opposition to President Trump's immigration plans because there are some Catholics who would like to use the Catholic Church or Catholic teaching to defend these harsh immigration policies, including Vice President J.D. Vance, who has sought to use some theolo -- theology to defend the -- those things. And President sorry, Pope -- Pope Francis being very clear that that's not possible in his intervention.

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TAPPER: All right. Christopher Lamb in Rome, thank you so much.

A big programming note starting March 3rd, that's a week from this Monday. The Lead is on the move. Look for the show in our new time slot, 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. Eastern every weekday here on CNN.

The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer right next door in a place I like to call The Situation Room. I'll see you tomorrow.