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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump, British PM Hold News Conference At White House; Trump: Ceasefire Would "Lay The Groundwork" For Lasting Peace Deal; USAID Dismantling Leaves Georgia Plant Scrambling; RFK Jr. Downplays Measles Outbreak, Provides Wrong Data; Musk Says U.S. Government Should Use His Company, Starlink, Instead of Verizon To Fix Aging FAA Systems. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired February 27, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He tried. He was working hard, I'll tell you that. He -- he earned whatever the hell they pay him over there. But, he tried.

We -- I think this is a very good chance that in the case of these two great, friendly countries, I think we -- we could very well end up with a real trade deal where the tariffs wouldn't be necessary. We'll see.

But he's -- he earned whatever they -- whatever they pay him, he earned today. He was working hard at lunch. And -- and I'm very receptive to it.

I think we, in all fairness, in all seriousness, I think we have a very good chance of arriving at a very good deal. J.D. and Scott and Howard, all the people are working on it, and I think we have a good chance of arriving at a deal that could be terrific, really terrific for both countries. Okay? Thank you.

KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: On the second part of the question, I think my views on Putin are pretty well-rehearsed and pretty well known. And my concern is that if there's a deal and I hope there is a deal, that it must be a lasting deal, that it's not a temporary measure. And that is why I think its really important that Putin knows that this deal, a historic deal, which I very much hope comes about, is there, is there and its a lasting deal. And that were able to deal with any inclination he has to go again or go further.

TRUMP: I think we'll have two deals. I think we'll have a deal on ending the war, and I think we're going to end up with a great trade deal with you, and it's an honor to be with you. And I want to thank everybody very much. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

STARMER: Thank you.

TRUMP: Thank you very much. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: Good afternoon. I'm Phil Mattingly, in today for Jake Tapper.

You've been listening to President Trump at the White House holding a news conference alongside U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer. It comes in the wake of a lengthy day of meetings between the two leaders and their teams, where several top issues were raised. Several top issues were very clearly negotiated in a rather tough manner, as President Trump alluded to several times throughout the press conference.

But first and foremost among them, without any question at all, was President Trump's push to secure a ceasefire and potential peace deal with the war in Ukraine. The president saying he will meet with Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenskyy tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. to negotiate or to sign and finalize a minerals agreement that they had been working towards.

The discussions today, though, very clearly talking about what the two closest of allies can do to push forward on President Trump's ability over the course of the last several weeks to really turn what had been a long standing stalemate into some type of movement towards something. What that something actually is, though very much an open question.

Keir Starmer, the U.K. prime minister, taking a very firm line on what a peace deal should look like. Ukraine's voice in the negotiations over that deal, and the fact that it must have strength and reward the individual or the country that was invaded, not the invader.

I do want to turn right now to CNN anchor and chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins, who's with me.

Kaitlan, you're in the room where president just spoke after today a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia, something's in the works.

Do we know how real it is right now?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's still a real question of what that deal looks like, and also whether or not it's seen as viable.

One thing that the British prime minister made clear as he was on his way here to Washington, Phil, and inside the room with President Trump, is talking about have real U.S. backing of whatever that agreement looks like, because he says that any deal here that does not have the United States support, he does not believe will deter the Russian president. And one big thing that the president, President Trump himself, has emphasized while he was sitting down with the British prime minister is that he does trust President Putin when it comes to what one of these deals could look like.

He reiterated that over and over inside the oval office earlier, because what is key here is that if there is any peace agreement between Russia and Ukraine, and if there is a minerals agreement that the United States agrees to with Ukraine, which we are expecting to be finalized completely and in full tomorrow, is what the backstop is going to be. Europe has said, yes, that they will put peacekeeping forces on the ground. Several of the world leaders have committed to that.

But the question of what that looks like and what happens if they need backup, and what is the backstop to those European forces is a real question still. And there were no concrete assurances from President Trump here during this press conference or during his oval office earlier with the British prime minister. But despite many attempts to -- to ask them about that, I will say there was a great question from our colleague Jeff Mason at "Reuters" who asked if President Trump still believes in Article Five of the NATO treaty. That is the collective defense agreement, that if some of those European forces are on the ground in Ukraine, and if there is Russian aggression, if they are hit, will the United States come to their defense?

[16:05:07]

The president didn't go into detail on that question, but he said he does believe and does abide by Article Five, as all of this is shaking out.

Now, in the meantime and much more immediate future, we are hours away from having President Zelenskyy potentially be in this very room. We don't yet know if those two leaders will hold a press conference, but we do know he'll be here in Washington. One of the British reporters asked President Trump if he wanted to apologize to Zelenskyy after he referenced him as a dictator without borders, something he joked sarcastically earlier he did not recall doing and then said move on to the next question.

One thing that he said here is that he has respect for Zelenskyy and for the Ukrainian fighters that have been fighting this war for the last three years. He talked about all the support the United States has provided, but still real questions about whether or not these European leaders, both the French president and now the British prime minister, who have come here this week, have gotten the concrete assurances that they have sought. It does not sound like they have, as they express optimism about what this deal could ultimately look like. And President Trump himself, without specifying why, says he does believe that the president of Russia will abide by it.

MATTINGLY: Kaitlan, before I let you go, it has been a series of high stakes foreign leader meetings with president macron, with the prime minister today, with Zelenskyy tomorrow. It's very clear European leaders have sketched out what they believe. At least the outlines could be.

Do we have any sense right now when the president says it needs to happen quickly, or it may not happen at all? What concrete the U.S. wants here?

COLLINS: No. The perimeters of that agreement still remain to be seen. And the vice president yesterday weighed in during the cabinet meeting briefly to say they weren't going to negotiate any kind of a deal in front of the press while they were in the room. But they haven't given those outlines of what that looks like.

We know what Ukraine would have to give up, which is any hope of getting a NATO membership. President Trump kind of scoffed at that earlier in the oval office and said, yeah, I can say there's a path, but it's realistically not going to happen. The other question, of course, has been pre-2014 borders, when Russia illegally annexed Crimea. That's been off the table as well as going back to that. But in terms of the concessions that Putin will have to make or what this could look like or what the United States is looking to gain beyond that minerals deal, which also still has real questions in and of itself, because a lot of those valuable minerals remember it will fill are in the east side of Ukraine where this fighting is happening, where Russia is occupying spaces of land.

It's still a real question of what that could look like. And of course, those are questions that will still be front and center when President Zelenskyy is here at the White House tomorrow.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, it will be a huge day tomorrow, a huge week for the White House. Kaitlan Collins for us at the White House, thanks so much.

I now want to bring in CNN's Daniel Dale to fact check some of what we heard from President Trump.

Daniel, what stood out to you?

DANIEL DALE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: It wasn't the barrage of false claims we had at the president's cabinet meeting yesterday. But I think two significant things to fact check nonetheless.

First of all, the president keeps using a fictional figure for how much aid the U.S. has provided to Ukraine during this war, he said. Today, it's $300 billion to $350 billion. Simply not true. A European think tank that closely studies this issue puts it at about $125 billion. The U.S. government has used a higher figure as high as $185 billion, but still nowhere close to what the president says.

And then on tariffs, he was asked about his claim earlier today that his foreign countries, not Americans, who paid tariffs. And he stood by it. He said that, you know, in the first term he put tariffs on China, took in hundreds of billions of dollars. Study after study, including one from a bipartisan United States government commission, found that it is Americans who paid those tariffs, and it is American importers who literally make the tariff payments.

So importers in this country make the payments and very often pass on those costs to American consumers -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right. Daniel Dale, thanks so much.

And I want to bring in CNN's Nick Paton Walsh, who is standing by in Ukraine for us.

Nick, President Zelenskyy's visit to D.C. tomorrow, it seems like it has enormous significance. What do we expect? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT:

Yeah. I mean, look, this is a phenomenally important moment for really all Ukrainians. The personal relationship between Trump and Zelenskyy had been in freefall for the last sort of ten days or so, and it is remarkable twice today to hear him. Asked about his earlier comments, Trump once saying he can't remember saying the dictator phrase before and then simply bypassing the question this time around 11:00 tomorrow, they will meet. You heard Trump there talking about the bravery of Ukrainian soldiers and how he kept saying how he thinks they're going to have a great meeting.

But it is that rare earth deal that's so key. It ultimately seems to have moved Trump closer towards a sort of pro-European, pro-Ukrainian position. He even referenced earlier today the idea that Americans might even be in Ukraine digging. He kept saying dig, dig, dig, we must dig.

And I think that's a sign, potentially, of him embracing the idea of Ukraine being a sort of mineral wealth for the United States in the event that peace comes down. But this big question about exactly how is that achieved is remarkable. Trump actually said that he didn't think maintaining the peace would be an issue. It would be getting the deal done in the first place.

And standing next to Starmer there, another important thing to notice was the two men's relationship as well.

[16:10:05]

This meeting built on what Macron managed to do. The French president on Monday by seemingly taking Trump slightly further away from the orbit of Moscow, closer towards the European thinking about Ukraine. But there are clearly details that have not been sorted, sorted out yet between the two men.

In terms of peacekeeping forces, the U.K. and other European nations are willing to put boots on the ground and Keir Starmer for the first time today, the British prime minister said there will be British planes in the air as well. That's a significant development. Britain doesn't have an enormous air force, frankly, and I'm sure there would have been looking to the United States to do a lot of that air cover, potentially for them.

Maybe this is London stepping forwards a little and saying that they're willing to contribute a little more of all of that. But it's that question of the backstop that's so important. European countries clear. They simply can't do this peacekeeping force if there is peace without U.S. logistical support. Trump did, by his own admission, evade that question.

But he kept saying that they've always had the British back, and they will always have the British back. That wasn't an explicit agreement that they would defend British forces if they were attacked, but it came close to it. So potential there and they're saying their teams will continue to talk about it.

MATTINGLY: Important point. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much.

Let's get straight to CNN national security analyst Beth Sanner.

Beth, there's about ten things that nick was just detailing there that I'm fascinated by where we are. And look, before this moment, there were no talks, there were no discussions. How real it is, I think right now seems to be anyone's guess.

But the shape and how the shape has shifted over the course of the last 3 or 4 days. Where do we go from here with Zelenskyy coming to Washington in less than 24 hours?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, this is really important in that he is meeting with Zelenskyy first in person, right, more than once as well. He's had the phone call with Putin. But solidifying this agreement, even though the agreement is vague, even though the agreement doesn't have explicit security guarantees.

And the president's mind, I believe, he -- he thinks of this agreement as being the security guarantee. And he also thinks that because he is in power, unlike Biden or Obama, that Putin wouldn't challenge it or him because he's strong. And so therefore, I think he thinks that that's enough. That's why he's talking about this trust.

So the next phase then is really probably going back to the Russians and trying to move on this deal. They just met in Istanbul today at a lower level to talk about resuming the embassies. So there's that diplomatic mission that can talk, but there will be have to be another meeting soon. And frankly, Phil, what Russia is putting on the table right now is nowhere near an agreement, as has been discussed today, really maximalist demands.

MATTINGLY: Yeah. And it's the big question when President Trump says it has to happen quickly or may not happen at all. How -- how do you get from here to there at this point? It's something we're going to be exploring, I imagine, for the days ahead.

Beth Sanner, thanks so much.

SANNER: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, also here in Washington today, fired federal workers cleaning out their desks at USAID.

Plus, hear how U.S. companies are being impacted by these cuts, including one company owner getting the news while in an interview with CNN.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:17:05]

MATTINGLY: Back with our politics lead, today, we've been seeing fired USAID employees cleaning out their desks at the headquarters here in Washington, D.C. They were told to bring their own boxes to pack their personal belongings. This after the Supreme Court last night ordered a temporary pause in the case, which allowed Trump's spending freeze to continue for now.

Let's bring in CNN's M.J. Lee and Arlette Saenz.

Arlette, we're on the ground today watching this all play out. What was the scene like at USAID headquarters? What comes next?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDSENT: Well, Phil, for nearly nine hours, we have seen USAID staffers streaming out of the headquarters here in downtown Washington, D.C., where they've come to clear out their offices. Each department has been given a short window of time to head in to the headquarters building, and they're giving each staffer 15 minutes to collect all of their belongings, perhaps for their final visit here to the headquarters.

We've seen entire departments gathering outside together to go in as a united team, as they are now facing these job cuts. And when they've been departing, as you can see right behind me, there are these crowds of supporters who have come to cheer, offer words of gratitude and comfort to these staffers as they are now facing a major losses and cuts to the agencies that they've loved.

We had an opportunity to speak to several of the USAID workers and federal contractors who have been impacted by Trump's sweeping moves. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALESTE DEGESYS, USAID GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE TECHNICAL ADVISOR: It was devastating. All the photographs of all the amazing humanitarian work that we've been doing for decades is no longer on the walls. Our identity has been stripped.

KATE PARSONS, HUMANITARIAN ADVISER FOR USAID: It's been completely chaotic. Emails and texts coming in at, you know, midnight on different days. Every day, things are changing, and it's just been heartbreaking to hear from people overseas who are actually doing this work.

KATE PARSONS, HUMANITARIAN ADVISER FOR USAID: Like getting children vaccines or providing food aid things that really matter being treated as if they're nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, this all comes as court filings this week revealed that the Trump administration was moving to cut 90 percent of foreign aid awards through USAID and other agencies. It really comes as President Trump has taken sweeping actions to try to dismantle the agency.

But as you heard there from the many thousands of workers who are impacted, that offers a bit of a slice into how they are feeling in this moment, as not just their personal jobs have been impacted, but also the cause that they have worked to try to promote here at home and abroad has been now affected by Trump's moves.

MATTINGLY: And, M.J., you've been tracking how the USAID dismantling is having an impact here at home, including on one Georgia based plant that helps feed malnourished kids. What did you find?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL ENTERPRISE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Phil, this is a plant that is based in Georgia that makes a special kind of peanut butter paste. It is fortified with milk and vitamins. It's highly, highly caloric.

[16:20:03]

And it basically gets sent out these little pouches to very malnourished children all across the world, including in countries that are based in Africa.

And, you know, the USAID has historically been supportive of producing these so-called RUTF products. And yesterday, I was on the phone with the owner of this Georgia-based plant.

His name is Mark Moore, and he tells me that minutes before we had gotten on the phone, he had gotten these contract termination letters from USAID. And I ended up getting a glimpse into the kind of chaos that this sent his plant into. Essentially, he felt like, well, if the contracts are gone, I can no longer distribute -- distribute anything that actually says USAID on it.

So he told his workers mid-production to take off any labels that say USAID. And then he asked to get on FaceTime with me to show me some of the labels in his office, the boxes in his office that say USAID that are now unusable.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MOORE, COMPANY OWNER: So this is 45 boxes, USAID branded.

LEE: Yeah.

MOORE: This is our UNICEF stuff.

LEE: Wow. So the packets that you make going forward, I mean, how do you distribute them if you don't have the USAID funding?

MOORE: That is a great question. No idea. That film turns into that packet right there because it gets rolled around and pinched. So what I did was I just called them and said, you know, this one says USAID on it.

LEE: Yeah.

MOORE: I said, take that roll off and put on a roll. That doesn't say that, basically.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEE: So this peanut butter plant is sort of a great example of the chaos that we've seen because of the sudden decimation of USAID. And for someone like Mark, I mean, he has all these questions that he can't get answered. Are the contracts actually finished? What's going to happen to the 400,000 boxes he says, that are sitting in his warehouse right now that all say, USAID, the millions of dollars that he still needs to be reimbursed for.

And the reason, Phil, that he also can't get an answer right now is because the contract officer that he would have gone to in the past, they were put on administrative leave. So literally, there's nobody to call.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, the downstream effects people will be feeling him for weeks and months to come. Thanks to you both.

I want to bring in our political panel. Alyssa Farah Griffin, former Trump White House communications official, and CNN anchor Kasie Hunt, who is probably sleeping more right now and whose new show "THE ARENA" will be appearing right around now, 20 minutes or so ago, 4:00 p.m. Eastern on Monday. THE LEAD slides one hour later from 5:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m.

Alyssa, I'll start with you. You heard all the stories from the impacted USAID workers. Do you think the president, his team, sees any of this stuff and thinks this is problematic? Or is this exactly what they wanted to happen?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think this is largely what they wanted to happen, but give it a little bit of time. A lot of these laid off federal workers are going to actually be eligible for unemployment benefits down the road. So if -- if DOGE actually does go as ambitious as they're telegraphing that they want to get rid of tens of thousands of federal workers, there's going to be a downstream economic impact to that at a time when the economy is actually more shaky than I think a lot of us expected it to be under Donald Trump.

And I'll say this as like a lifelong conservative. Listen, many Americans, the vast majority, support cutting waste, looking for things that are duplicative and programs that we can cut here and there. But the problem that I think were going to run into is we already have a retainment and recruitment crisis within the U.S. federal government. If -- if the top tier of people in the federal government are given an option to leave, they're going to leave and make more money in the private sector, and you're going to struggle to replace some of these essential roles.

So I don't know that were feeling the full impact of this yet. And I think as of now, the president is happy. But give it some time and he may not be.

MATTINGLY: Kasie, turning to Trump's meeting with UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer today. Obviously we watched the press conference as well. Earlier today, Trump, when speaking of Vladimir Putin, said trust but verify. This is actually a phrase from a Russian proverb that was used by President Ronald Reagan on several occasions in the context of those nuclear disarmament talks with the Soviet Union. I think the question right now, Trump obviously is in a very different position than his predecessor was than most U.S. presidents would be in this moment in time.

But do you think there's a trust there? Do you think he's the one that could possibly change the dynamic?

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR, THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT: Well, I mean, look, I think its clear that Donald Trump has previously trusted what Vladimir Putin has said about things like the Russia investigation. For example, when that famous clip, you know, in Helsinki, when he basically said, I don't believe the U.S. intelligence agencies. I believe, this man instead.

And, you know, I think the real question here is whether there's anyone that's going to tell him not to, because there were people around him last time in his last administration who did.

[16:25:00]

And it's not clear to me that there are this time.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, it's an important point. What he wants, he's getting as we're watching kind of play out on the streets. And the prior report as well.

Alyssa, Prime Minister Starmer presented the president today with a letter from King Charles. Watch how Starmer explained it to Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It's an invitation for a second state visit. This is really special. This has never happened before. This is unprecedented, and I think that just symbolizes the strength of the relationship between us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: It was also striking at the press conference, the prime minister talking about how extraordinary and unprecedented it would be. This would be the second state visit. I think the president liked it very much.

I'm interested. There's a play here, I think, from the prime minister. We see this from other foreign leaders, very different from the first term, where they seem to know what's going to resonate and potentially help them in their relationship with President Trump.

GRIFFIN: Oh, this was a master class of diplomacy aimed specifically at Donald Trump. And I think we saw similar with President Macron earlier this week as well. There were references to winning throughout his remarks. He talked about golf, how the U.S. and U.K. are number one and number two, knowing that Donald Trump loves golf and Donald Trump loves to be a first and to be the only person who did it. So -- and also has a special affection for King Charles I mentioned. So this was a very well-orchestrated, pro-European charm offensive. And I think it's very much a one-two punch, Macron and now Starmer, to really try to get Donald Trump more back with the European allies as he's negotiating this deal with Zelenskyy.

And I get the sense that it's working. I mean, that answer that he gave when he was questioned about calling Zelenskyy a dictator. It was -- he's half joking, but it is a bit of a walk back. And so I think it's very promising that you've got some of the most powerful voices in Europe saying, were going to do more, but also we're here, we're your friends. Stand by us.

MATTINGLY: Yeah. If it seemed overt and over the top, it's because it was.

Kasie Hunt, Alyssa Farah Griffin, appreciate you both so much.

Look out for Kasie's new show, "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT". It debuts in this time slot 4:00 p.m. Eastern, next Monday, March 3rd. THE LEAD also on the move. We'll slide back an hour later and be on the air from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. Eastern every weekday, right here on CNN.

Well, up next, setting the record straight on measles after Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Trump's secretary of health and human services, made some rather questionable assertions about the current outbreak in west Texas.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:31:48]

MATTINGLY: In our health lead, some Republican senators on a top health committee are raising concerns about the deadly measles outbreak in West Texas. That's where an unvaccinated child died from the highly contagious virus, becoming the first U.S. measles death in a decade. This as Health and Human Services Secretary RFK, Jr. downplayed the severity of the measles outbreak.

CNN's Meg Tirrell takes a closer look at RFK Jr.'s comments as measles cases continue to pop up in several states around the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT AT TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: The fact that we've allowed it to come roaring back like this in Texas is just unconscionable.

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Health officials on the ground in Texas at odds with newly appointed HHS secretary, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., amid a bubbling measles outbreak in the western part of the state, now including the country's first death from the disease in a decade.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HHS SECRETARY: There are about 20 people hospitalized, mainly for quarantine.

DR. LARA JOHNSON, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, COVENANT HEALTH LUBBOCK SERVICE AREA: We don't hospitalized patients for -- for quarantine purposes. We admit patients who need acute supportive treatment in our hospital.

KENNEDY: There have been four measles outbreaks this year in this country. Last year, there were 16. So it's not unusual.

DR. AMY THOMPSON, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CONVENANT HEALTH LUBBOCK SERVICE AREA: This is a vaccine preventable disease that we had eradicated.

TIRRELL: And that's what does make this unusual. Ever since the vaccine was introduced in 1963, cases of measles in the United States have plummeted, getting so low. Measles was declared eliminated in this country in the year 2000. And that's because two doses of the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, or MMR, are highly safe and effective.

JOHNSON: We're very lucky to have an extremely effective vaccine for measles, and having two doses of measles vaccine confers 97 percent lifetime immunity.

If you're unvaccinated, if you're around someone who has the illness, you have a 90 percent chance of becoming ill from the virus.

TIRRELL: That's exactly what we've seen here, with all of the hospitalized patients in this outbreak being unvaccinated. The worry now is that with a virus this contagious, it will continue to spread through communities where vaccination rates have dropped. The measles virus can linger in the air for two hours after an infected person has left the room, making Texas health experts especially concerned about mass gatherings like the upcoming rodeo in Houston, which may bring together more than 100,000 people a day.

And that's why local hospital officials continue to push one message.

JOHNSON: I would -- I would get a vaccine because that's going to be the best protection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TIRRELL (on camera): And Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is not pushing that same message, Phil, we asked the Department of Health and Human Services several times today whether Secretary Kennedy recommends people get vaccinated against measles.

They acknowledged our inquiry. We told them our deadline for air was 4:00. And as of now, we have not heard anything back from HHS about whether its health secretary recommends people get vaccinated against measles -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: A non-answer says a lot on something like this. Meg Tirrell, thanks so much. Great reporting, as always.

I want to bring in Katherine Wells. She's the director of public health for Lubbock, Texas, which of course is part of West Texas.

Katherine, I appreciate your time. I think one of the initial questions, after watching the secretary of health and human services yesterday, was the idea that measles outbreaks are, quote, not unusual.

[16:35:04]

When you heard that, what did you think?

KATHERINE WELLS, DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC HEALTH, LUBBOCK, TEXAS: Well, we've had -- I mean, secretary said that there was four measles outbreaks this year. And that's true. But we've the size and scope of this particular outbreak is significant. This is one of the largest measles outbreaks that we've seen in Texas in at least a decade. Some people are saying 20 years, significant number of cases.

And unfortunately, seeing multiple children hospitalized in our communities.

MATTINGLY: Do we have a sense right now? I think the number was 124 reported cases. Do we have a sense of where it's at now? Is it growing over the course of the last day?

WELLS: Yeah, that number is going to continue to grow. I don't have -- the state will report new numbers in the morning. But we're going to see continued increases in numbers of measles until we get this, you know, really get more vaccinations into our community, really making sure that we're getting all of the children that are sick, treated.

MATTINGLY: As a parent watching from afar, this is jarring and unsettling. What's it like on the ground there? What are you hearing from parents, from people in west Texas?

WELLS: I mean, people are concerned. One of the things is there's a large portion of our community is vaccinated. So we're really working to reach out to those that are unvaccinated. And we're starting to see more and more people show up at our vaccine clinics today, we had over 50 individuals come to our health department in Lubbock for that vaccination, which is, you know, great to be start seeing that uptake.

MATTINGLY: I am desperate not to make this a political issue, given what folks like yourself are dealing with on the ground here, but does it harm your efforts when the health and human services secretary is not willing to comment about getting a vaccine here?

WELLS: I mean, my goal, I mean, local health department director. So my goal is really about the health of our particular community, and myself, our health authority, as you showed in your clip there, the -- our hospital administrators really want to encourage that vaccination. And that's going to be our message locally.

MATTINGLY: Listen to your local officials. Katherine Wells, really appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

WELLS: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, up next, a new proposal from Elon Musk. This time it's not about DOGE, but his SpaceX company Starlink. And his idea raises very real questions about potential conflict of interest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:42:09]

MATTINGLY: We're back with our politics lead.

The world's richest man tasked with rooting out waste, fraud and abuse in the U.S. government, is proposing his company, SpaceX, to take over a vital multi-billion-dollar air traffic control system contract. Elon Musk suggests kicking the current contract holder, Verizon, to the curb and using instead his Starlink system to overhaul what he calls a dire system breakdown.

Lets' talk about this with CNN's aviation correspondent Pete Muntean and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Pete, these contracts that Verizon handles for the FAA, what are they and are they breaking down rapidly, very rapidly, as Musk says?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Musk is sort of right there and saying that the FAA's technology systems are old and aging and obsolete and really backed up by this Government Accountability Office report. Out only two months ago, it said urgent FAA actions are needed to modernize aging systems 92 percent of the FAA facility and equipment budget goes into sustaining that old system.

What is not clear is why Musk is targeting this now, how Starlink would really help, and really what it would cost. Telecommunications are the backbone of the air traffic control system. Remember, directions are delivered to pilots via radio, but its phone lines that are used to relay critical communication between air traffic control facilities.

Two years ago, Verizon was awarded a contract to modernize that system. It's a $2 billion deal called FENS. That stands for the FAA Enterprise Network Services. The deal was essentially to build out an entire new telecom network for the FAA that would last until almost 2040.

MATTINGLY: Okay. But to be clear, other than why now, how it could help and what it would cost, everything seemed very clear at this point.

Elie, honestly, like in terms of conflict of interest, which the president and Musk both said that they would absolutely not allow here, how does the government police these kinds of things? And is this a conflict of interest as it appears?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you're not missing anything, Phil. This is as flagrant as conflicts of interest get. You're talking about Elon Musk, who now works for the federal government in some capacity, recommending that the federal government give a $2 billion contract to a private company that he owns.

Now, normally the way this is policed is within the executive branch itself. The employee in this case, Elon Musk, would either recuse from the government side or divest from the private side. It doesn't seem like that's going to happen.

And the alternative here is enforcement goes through the Justice Department. It actually is a federal crime. If you are an officer or employee of the federal government, if you award a government contract to a private company, that you have a direct personal stake in, lower level federal officials have actually been prosecuted for doing just that.

And alternatively, the attorney general can go to court and try to get a transaction like this blocked on the basis of conflict of interest.

[16:45:03]

Of course, the big problem that I'm sure everybody is wondering about here is there's just no way that this Justice Department is going to take any of these measures to try to stop Elon Musk.

MATTINGLY: Just real quick, I want to follow up with Pete, but can -- can you just cancel a giant federal contract like this legally?

HONIG: Oh, no, it's enormously complicated. It's not just like flipping a light switch on or off. There is a very long, drawn out, complicated administrative process that has to be gone through.

MATTINGLY: Pete, I imagine it's been a day in the Verizon government relations office, but what are they saying right now?

MUNTEAN: Right now, we have this new statement from Verizon in which they say they will continue to work with the FAA. Here's the new statement. We're at the beginning of a multiyear contract to replace antiquated legacy systems. Our teams have been working with the FAA technology teams, and our solution stands ready to be deployed. We'll continue to partner with the FAA on achieving its modernization objectives.

Musk is kind of low on details here, as you pointed out. It's really not clear how Starlink satellite internet will replace that Verizon plan. We do know this from the FAA that it's testing Starlink internet at three different sites in the United States at the FAA testing center in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Also, two more Starlink terminals have been deployed to Alaska.

The FAA says there are non-safety critical uses, but Alaska is a really interesting test bed, a big proving ground here because its the state with the highest number of pilots per capita. Flying is really a vital way of life there, and this could prove pretty critical.

MATTINGLY: Let me translate Verizon-ese (ph) here. What the -- is going on right now?

Pete Muntean, Elie Honig, love you guys. Thanks so much. Well, this next one is a must see. It's practically the Jetsons

predicting the future again. How soon flying cars could be hovering over a road near you. I'll ask a CEO trying to make it happen, next.

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MATTINGLY: Imagine hopping in your car, starting the ignition, and taking flight.

Alef Aeronautics produced this prototype that can both hit the roads and soar in the skies.

The flying car, dubbed Model Zero, hovered over the roads. You can see it there in California in a test drive. Or maybe we say test flight. Not sure on that one.

The company's CEO hopes this could create a new market in transportation. I want to bring in that CEO, Jim Dukhovny.

Jim, just to start here, how does this work?

JIM DUKHOVNY, CEO, ALEF AERONAUTICS: So you take an existing car. You take the engine out of it, and you put four smaller engines inside the four wheels. You also take the trunk out.

In the space which it creates, you put the electric propulsion of eight propellers. That takes the vertical lift, and. You also create a mesh on top to allow the airflow through. You also made the side of the car in a specific airfoil to be airplane wings for allowing an efficient forward flight.

MATTINGLY: So the prototype hasn't been certified in the U.S.

What regulatory challenges do you anticipate when trying to meet safety standards for both, I guess automobiles and aircraft on some level?

DUKHOVNY: Sure. So, it's a -- the one you're looking at is Model Zero ultralight.T The Model Zero was given the FAA airworthiness certification for very limited usage and very limited areas.

The Model Zero is a regular ultralight aircraft. It's probably not commercial aircraft. The commercial one would be Model A, and Model A will have different regulations. We also have to certify it as the car because it is a regular EV electric vehicle, a regular car.

Initially, we're going to certify it as the low speed vehicle, but eventually as any regular vehicle which you can drive on the road.

MATTINGLY: What's your price point right now? I think I saw that it was valued at $300,000. Your goal very clearly reduced that price. What are you aiming for? DUKHOVNY: Correct. So when we produce just 1 or 2 cars, and all of it

done by hand, the price is going to be high because the cost for us is high. We are a startup after all. As you increase the volume, the price gets reduced. And also as you optimize manufacturing, the price gets reduced.

And eventually, we can actually make the cars cheaper than Toyota Corolla or Ford Focus because they're fundamentally simpler to make. But that will require that much volume and that much factor optimization. So it can be under $30,000 after we get to that many cars, but it's not going to be soon.

MATTINGLY: So if you're watching this and marveling at the video we've been playing on screen here, when as a consumer, can you expect to be able to buy something like this?

DUKHOVNY: So you can actually do the preorders right now online. If we are on track and we are right now on track, we should be able to deliver well, actually start producing the first one in about a year. We just opened a new round for investment. So we welcome new investors. And that should help kind of get us on track and speed up.

We already have draper associates. In fact, we see a lot of good investors helping us. It is the question of resources, more resources we have the sooner we can get this into the consumer hands.

MATTINGLY: It will be fascinating to watch.

Jim Dukhovny, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

DUKHOVNY: Thank you, sir.

MATTINGLY: Well, ahead, the mysterious circumstances behind the death of acclaimed actor Gene Hackman, along with his wife and their dog. The sheriff's office overseeing this case in New Mexico just spoke. Why they consider the case suspicious enough?

Plus, the 911 call from the caretaker who found the body. That's ahead.

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MATTINGLY: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Phil Mattingly, in for Jake Tapper.

This hour, investigating the death of a Hollywood legend. Oscar winner Gene Hackman and his wife found dead in their home tonight. Police say the circumstances are suspicious enough in nature to require thorough investigation -- thorough search and investigation.

Plus, she graduated from high school with honors, but she can't read or write. Now, a Connecticut teenager is suing her school district, alleging her family's concerns were brushed aside and staff didn't do enough to help her learn.

And leading this hour, President Trump holding court this afternoon at the White House with the leader of one of the United States' closest allies, British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, traveling to Washington for a meeting largely focused on the future of the conflict in Ukraine and negotiations to end the war started by Russia's Vladimir Putin.

That's where we begin with CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the --