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The Lead with Jake Tapper

White House Denies Defying Court Order; Sen. Schumer Cancels Book Tour; Democratic Party's Lowest Polling Number; Russia Confirms Trump & Putin To Speak Tuesday; Trump Admin Slashes Government-Funded Global Media Outlets; U.S. Astronauts To Return After 9 Plus Months In Space. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired March 17, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

PETER MEIJER, FORMER MICHIGAN REPRESENTATIVE: I actually has ideas as opposed to just triangulating to the center of wherever when things that they're supposed to be, which just reads as inauthentic and boring.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Yeah. It's a very interesting point about polls. It's been cutting an interesting figure. All right. Jake Tapper is now standing by. He's got "The Lead" coming up next. Hi, Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hi Kasie. I didn't know you had Leif Erikson on your show.

HUNT: Who knew? Who knew Mr. Meijer left office and, you know.

TAPPER: He looks great. He knows I think he looks great.

HUNT: Fair enough, Jake.

TAPPER: Thank you so much Kasie. We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow. Did the Trump administration just flat out ignore a court order? "The Lead" starts right now.

A court hearing is set to begin any moment over the White House's deportations of alleged Venezuelan gang members to El Salvador. The questions today over whether the Trump administration defied a judge when the administration expelled more than 250 migrants from the U.S. this past weekend.

Plus, a powerful storm system tearing across the United States killing at least 42 people as it destroyed entire towns on the ground in some of the hardest hit areas as the cleanup process begins.

And the moment is finally here. Those two astronauts who unexpectedly spent ten months in space are finally about to head home. They're thanking President Trump and Elon Musk. A look at their final preparations as they're set to undock from the International Space Station.

Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper. And at any moment, a major showdown between the Trump White House and the judicial branch of government will unfold at a court hearing. Any minute U.S. District Judge James Boasberg here in Washington, D.C. plans to press the Trump administration on whether the administration violated his Saturday order to pause deportation flights.

Trump over the weekend sped up the deportation of hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members by using the Alien Enemies Act, signed into law in 1798 by President John Adams. The act allows the president to detain or deport noncitizens during times of war or invasion. It has only been used a handful of times during the U.S. Civil War, during World War I, and during World War II.

That most recent invocation before today, rather shamefully, of course, FDR invoking the act to create internment camps for Japanese Americans. But back to today. In Saturday's court hearing, Judge Boasberg verbally told the Justice Department to turn around any planes carrying anyone being deported under the Alien Enemies Act. But those planes, some of which may have already been in the air at the time of that verbal order, did not turn around. It's not even clear if they had enough fuel to do so.

The migrants arriving at their destination, a prison in El Salvador. The White House earlier today denied defying the judge's order.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, BORDER POLICY ADVISER: By the time the other order came, the plane was all already over international waters with a plane full of terrorists and significant public safety threats, but the president did exactly the right thing. We removed terrorists. That should be a celebration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN's Priscilla Alvarez, is here. And Priscilla, you have been closely tracking the timeline of this deportation order and everything that's taken place since there's a court hearing going on right now. What's that court hearing about?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, it has been a dizzying seventy two hours. And right now, we are trying to get or the judge is trying to get more clarity as to what exactly happened on Saturday when those flights left The United States to El Salvador right as they were in the process of this court hearing.

It started with the American Civil Liberties Union asking, demanding that the judge put this hearing on the calendar to hear more about what exactly unfolded. As of an hour ago, this department trying to take it off the books today. It's going forward anyway. All of this, of course, Jake, because Trump invoked that Alien Enemies Act.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALVAREZ (voice-over): President Trump is escalating his immigration crackdown and setting up a legal showdown. Trump invoking the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, a little known 18th century law that gives the president tremendous authority to target and quickly deport migrants. DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Think of that

1798. Oh, it's a powerful act. You couldn't pass something like that today.

ALVAREZ (voice-over): The measure used only three times all during major wars, including during World War II, is tied to what Trump described as an invasion of criminals.

TRUMP: These are criminals. Many, many criminals. Murderers, drug dealers at the highest level, drug lords, people from mental institutions. That's an invasion. They invaded our country. So this isn't, in that sense, this is war.

[17:05:00]

ALVAREZ (voice-over): The move was immediately challenged in court, setting off a legal clash that's raised questions over whether the administration violated a court order. The controversy unfolded in a matter of hours. On Saturday afternoon, a federal district judge kicked off a hearing over use of the Alien Enemies Act. The hearing was briefly adjourned for the government to collect more information.

In that time, two removal flights took off to El Salvador, which has agreed to take Venezuelan migrants. The judge verbally told the Justice Department to turn around any planes carrying people being deported under the Alien Enemies Act. A written order came an hour and 20 minutes later. In a post on X, El Salvadorian President Nayib Bukele seemed to taunt the judge's order, writing, quote, "oopsie, too late" with a laughing emoji.

HOMAN: By the time the other order came, the plane was already over international waters with a plane full of terrorists and significant public safety threats. The president did exactly the right thing.

ALVAREZ (voice-over): The administration's primary target is the Venezuelan gang, Tren de Aragua, which was recently designated a foreign terrorist organization by the administration. More than half of the 261 migrants expelled to El Salvador were done under the wartime authority, according to a senior administration official. The administration has not provided identities of those removed.

LEE GELERNT, ACLU ATTORNEY: The law says explicitly it may only be used against a foreign government or a foreign nation when we are in a declared war with that foreign government or that foreign government is invading us. This gang is not invading. So in our view, there is no question that this administration is just thumbing their nose at Congress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ALVAREZ (on camera): Now sources that I've spoken with say that in some regards, the legal fight is the point. And, Jake, I will say that this marks yet another example of the Trump administration leaning on these rarely used legal provisions to press forward the Trump administration's agenda in unprecedented ways. In this case, targeting those members of the Tren de Aragua gang. TAPPER: All right, Priscilla Alvarez, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Let's go to CNN's Kaitlan Collins now at the White House. Kaitlan, the White House is denying that they defied the judge's order. They say, in fact, that this district court judge has no jurisdiction to interfere with President Trump and foreign policy. Tell us more about what their explanation is and whether it's been consistent or shifting.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Well, Jake, it's a pretty extraordinary legal argument that they're making right now. And we kind of got some insight into what they are going to be arguing in court where they are scheduled to be this hour, just a few hours ago, as they were trying to get this entire hearing called off, saying they were not planning to provide more information, which the judge was demanding during this hearing about those flights and the ones that went and the rationale behind why they were sent there on Saturday night.

And, really, a lot of this has to do with this argument that we are hearing from the White House saying that they are complying with the judge's orders. But if you look at the timeline here, Jacob, when these planes took off, when they were still in the air, and when they landed in conjunction with when the judge issued a verbal order, which he did about 40 minutes before he issued a written order, though they are essentially carry the same legal weight and that is widely recognized facet of this this argument.

That is not what the White House and the DOJ is saying. In this essential attempt to try to get this hearing that is happening this hour delayed, they were arguing that verbal orders are not enforceable, Jake, and that is obviously a bigger -- a very extraordinary legal argument that they were making, and it's one that the White House previewed at the briefing earlier today.

And the reason that timeline is critical, Jake, is because that verbal order came out before the third flight had taken off and before those other two flights had landed in El Salvador. And here's what the White House press secretary had to say about these verbal versus written orders, Jake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Again, as I said, all of the planes, subject to the written order of this judge departed U.S. soil, U.S. territory before the judge's written order.

COLLNS: But what about the verbal order, which, of course, carries the same legal weight as a written order and said for the planes to turn around if they were --

LEAVITT: Well, there's actually questions about whether a verbal order carries the same weight as a legal order, as a written order, and our lawyers are determined to ask and answer those questions in court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, Jake, that was just a preview of what they are planning to argue in court, what they were arguing to get this entire hearing canceled. The judge denied that request by them and said he still wants those attorneys from the Justice Department in his courtroom this hour, and so we'll see what he says about that. Obviously, that is not generally a distinction that is recognized in court about verbal orders versus a written order from the judge.

And, Jake, they also tried to get this judge removed from overseeing this decision and saying it should be sent to an appeals case. Of course, there is appeals court. There's really a question here, Jake, of what this looks like happening next and whether or not they do succeed here. The White House says that they do believe that they ultimately will.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. And don't forget to look for Kaitlan in just a few hours on her show, "The Source with Kaitlin Collins." Among her guests this evening, Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin.

[17:10:02]

That's weeknights at 9:00 eastern only here on CNN. Let's discuss all of this now with John Sandweg. He's the former acting director of ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, as well as the former acting general counsel of the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama. And Guy Lewis, who oversaw U.S. Attorney Offices in D.C. for the George W. Bush administration. Guy, let me start with you. Do you think the Trump administration defied a federal judge? Did this judge have jurisdiction? And what is gonna happen next?

GUY LEWIS, FORMER DIRECTOR, EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR U.S. ATTORNEYS: So, Jake, all great questions. I'll start with the last one. Boy, oh, boy. I wish I could tell you what's gonna happen next because I can't. It's chaotic. This is emergency litigation that's occurring in front of the judge. Frankly, the misunderstandings, the back and forth, the arguments that are being made right now, the Justice Department is gonna stand up and say, judge, look, yes. In the context of discussing the case, you indicated bring the planes back, but in your written order, you didn't say anything about bringing the planes back, and so we were operating on the assumption that the written order prevailed.

There's gonna be a lot of back and forth. This is the initial part of the ballgame, which I think is the skirmish, whether the plane should be brought back. The real issue is -- the legal issue, Jake, I think is gonna be whether or not the president can invoke this kind of extraordinary power in order to expel aliens like he's done in this case.

TAPPER: So, John, Stephen Miller, moments ago, told CNN anchor Kasie Hunt that a district court judge does not have jurisdiction over this because this is essentially foreign policy and a judge can't stop, for example, troop movements abroad. What do you make of that argument?

JOHN SANDWEG, FORMER ACTING GENERAL COUNSEL, DHS: Well, so, Jake, it's certainly unprecedented. I mean, one thing that we know about immigration enforcement or immigration policy writ large is if the last 15 to 20 years that no matter what an administration does, Democrat or Republican, it's going to the courts. And what we've seen on whether it was the Biden administration with Republican attorneys general running to districts like the Southern District Of Texas seeking an injunction of expansion of DACA program for instance.

Or conversely, during the first Trump administration is that DHS historically honors those district court orders, those nationwide injunctions. It is frustrating. It is difficult to do policy when you honor those injunctions because they come quickly. But the bottom line is we honor them because of the rule of law. It is going to be interesting to see what the administration's position is.

Right now, they seem to be kind of back and forth as to whether they actually complied or whether they're obligated to comply. But either way, this is an issue I think that's been coming to a head writ large, and this thing will be very, very interesting to see how it plays out in the next, you know, hours and days.

TAPPER: And Guy, there is this question over whether Trump can use, this 1798 law, the Alien Enemies Act, to deport alleged members of criminal gangs even if they're foreign gangs. The act states it can be used, quote, "whenever there is a declared war between The United States and any foreign nation or government or any invasion or predatory incursion." You heard Stephen Miller earlier, or I guess about an hour ago saying that that is happening, this invasion.

On Saturday, the judge quoted those terms saying the terms invasion, predatory, incursion really relate to hostile acts perpetrated by enemy nations and commensurate to war. Also, the terms nation and government do not apply to non-state actors like criminal gangs. As a result, I don't think the Alien Enemies Act provides a basis for removal. But of course, we heard Stephen Miller say that's not his interpretation of the law.

This is probably gonna end up, my guess would be in before the U.S. Supreme Court. How do you think they're gonna interpret the Alien Enemies Act?

LEWIS: So, Jake, I think we're gonna get a fairly conservative ruling from the Supreme Court. They're gonna give broad discretion, I think, to the administration's decision on these kind of matters, on immigration matters. I agree a hundred percent with John. I mean, generally, the president and his administration has a lot of latitude, Jake, in terms of immigration issues.

So I think on balance, when we get to the second part of the ball game after these skirmishes about orders and timing and flying them back, it may very well be that the judge says, okay. Well, okay. Let's continue with the main issue here. He'll make a ruling on whether Trump has the authority to act under the law that he does, and then it'll go forward and the appeals will occur.

And I don't know, maybe at the end of the day, we have to fly them back. I think that'd be silly and ridiculous, but this is all unprecedented type litigation that's taking place in the federal court.

TAPPER: John, your thoughts?

[17:14:58]

SANDWG: You know, Jake, really quickly, I think one thing we need to keep our eyes on is this is really unusual from an immigration operation. Typically, when we deport someone, we're sending them back to their home country. But here, we, of course, sent Venezuelans to El Salvador, which is not unprecedented. But what's unprecedented here is we did so where we had an agreement with our funding for them to be incarcerated in the El Salvadoran jail.

So I think that what's gonna be very interesting is how the courts react to that piece of it. Because it's not just a question of immigration authorities, it also raises real questions about whether or not we're trying to evade Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights of the criminal justice system and due process normally afforded to criminals. So, again, really an unprecedented case on so many levels.

TAPPER: Fascinating stuff. John Sandweg and Guy Lewis, thanks to both of you. Are the divisions within the Democratic Party getting even worse? New fallout today as Democrats argue over the best way to fight back against president Donald Trump. Spoiler alert, zero consensus.

And President Trump and Vladimir Putin scheduled to speak tomorrow with the Ukraine ceasefire deal still not complete. I'm gonna ask the NATO secretary general whether he can trust anything Putin says. That's coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:20:00]

TAPPER: In our "Politics Lead," Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, Democrat in New York, is postponing his book tour due to security concerns amid intense backlash from Democrats over his vote to help Republicans avert a government shutdown. Many House Democrats are furious with Schumer. They're criticizing his leadership, his inability to read the room, to handle the Trump administration.

We have two Democratic powerhouses with us right now, Paul Begala and Xochitl Hinojosa, to talk about -- I think it's fair. I know that Democrats in disarray is like a cliche, but this is Democrats in disarray. It's nuts. So Senator Schumer's book is about anti-Semitism. So already they were preparing for security concerns. But it's so bad with the left in the party that even the protesters that were gonna turn out before just because it's a bok about anti-Semitism, which is apparently controversial in this country all of a sudden.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. What a word.

TAPPER: It's the anger from the progressive groups about his vote to keep the government open. What does that say to you about where the Democratic Party is right now?

BEGALA: Well, vis-a-vis -- I'm sorry. Sochi, you want to go first?

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. Go ahead.

TAPPER: Oh, what a gentleman.

BEGALA: Vis-A -vis their leader --

TAPPER: I went to you first.

BEGALA: Okay. Thank you. But vis-a-vis their leadership and I've done this a very long time. I've never seen a party this angry at its leader, in Senator Schumer. It's incandescent. It's hard for me to describe. I mean, they're furious, and here's why. He had something very valuable. He had votes to pass the continuing resolution that Republicans could not do without them, and he traded them away for nothing.

I want the government to stay open. Most Democrats do. The funding level is actually not all that bad. There was some terrible stuff they added to it. But why not come to them a month ago? Seriously, this was strategic as well as tactical. Tactical was bad to cave without a compromise. Strategically, he should have come to his party a month ago and said, here are our principles.

Okay. Some people, my buddy, Rahm Emanuel has been saying for weeks we should say, more and better funding for public schools, public health, public safety. Actually, for me, it would be crackdown on the douche bags that are working for Mr. Musk and destroying our constitution.

TAPPER: Is that a legislative term?

BEGALA: I think it is. I think that's how you pronounce it. Douche, D- O-G-E --

TAPPER: Oh, D-O -- it's DOGE.

BEGALA: Oh, excuse me.

TAPPER: DOGE.

BEGALA: Sorry. But something --

TAPPER: Yeah.

BEGALA: -- that he could have gotten for that, he traded away for nothing. People are furious.

TAPPER: Xochitl, so when asked whether he believes his party will have his back in the face of potential primary challenge, Schumer told "The New York Times" this in a recent interview. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): That's a long time away. I am focused on bringing Trump's numbers down, his popularity down, exposing what he has done to America and what he will do. I believe that my hard work against Trump will pay off.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you think that's an optimistic look? What do you think?

HINOJOSA: So I agree, people are very angry. The party is very angry when it comes to his leadership. A lot of members --

TAPPER: Not just because of this vote?

HINOJOSA: Not -- because they've been upset with the way that the party is going. We lost everything. Changes need to be made. What I will say is when I was at the DNC in 2021 when Trump was in control, everybody was calling on Nancy Pelosi to resign. Everybody was out saying Nancy Pelosi needs to step aside. It is time. She has been there too long. People were saying she needed to step down immediately.

One thing that Nancy Pelosi did is that she embraced the next generation of leadership. She embraced Hakeem Jeffries. She brought them in. She brought them in close. And then eventually after the midterm elections, and it was -- there was already some rumblings about it. She said, you know what? I'm gonna step aside.

If Schumer wants to survive the next four years and not to be primaried, he needs to embrace the Ruben Gallegos, the younger diverse leadership that can happen.

TAPPER: Have a succession plan of some sort.

HINOJOSA: Have a succession plan of some sort and then say, you know what? I'm not gonna continue in leadership what's after the midterm elections. And I think that would take some pressure off, and that's what people want to see. Ultimately, Democrats want to win. They want some sort of a win and they're not getting it.

TAPPER: So, Paul, this is all happening already when Democrats' favorability among the American people is at an all-time low. A brand new scene in poll shows only 29 percent of voters have a favorable opinion of Democrats. That's a 20 point dip in four years. Fifty four percent have an unfavorable opinion. And this was done before the recent, kerfuffle. What do you make -- what does your party need to do?

BEGALA: They're gonna be down to staff and blood relations. Okay. I want to meet the 29 percent.

TAPPER: I got news for you, but you're losing staff.

BEGALA: Yeah. Who's the 29 percent who's happy? But it's a tale of two parties, okay. In Washington, they're defeated, they're divided, they're directionless.

[17:24:57]

In America, they're victorious. They're winning all of these special elections. They won the 35th -- we're nerdy here, okay. There's a 35th State Senate District in Iowa, Eastern Iowa, Clinton County went for Trump by 21 points. Democrat just won it by three and a half -- 25 point swing in a couple of months.

They've won specials in Virginia, in Pennsylvania, back to in Minnesota. The big fight, though.

TAPPER: I thought Minnesota happened.

BEGALA: Then they did win in Minnesota, forgive me. There was a couple more coming, but the big one will be April 1 in Wisconsin.

HINOJOSA: That's right.

BEGALA: Elon Musk is putting billions --

TAPPER: Oh, the Supreme Court race there.

BEGALA: Yes.

HINOJOSA: Billions of dollars.

BEGAL: And Ben Wikler, a very great chair there, sent me pictures of the billboards they're putting up. It says, hey, Elon, you can't buy our Supreme Court. So they're gonna win that race. So they're winning across the board.

HINOJOSA: Yeah.

BEGALA: So Democrats in America are doing great. Democrats in Washington suck.

TAPPER: So Nancy Pelosi's argument is it wasn't really just two options that Schumer had. He didn't have to do let the government shut down or, you know, or vote for this bill, that there were other options including let's pass a 30-day bill.

HONOJOSA: Right.

TAPPER: Force the House to do that, pass a 30-day bill and then you can renegotiate and stuff. Do you agree with her?

HINOJOSA: I do agree with her and I actually think a lot of this was a messaging problem as Paul alluded to. I think that Schumer did not treat this correctly messaging-wise in the beginning. He didn't set expectations. He didn't have a plan. And part of what Nancy Pelosi does so well is she has a plan with this stuff and she's able to communicate it.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both you. Really appreciate it. Their incredibly long journey is finally nearing an end. Those two U.S. astronauts who unexpectedly spent nearly 10 months in space are set to begin their journey home in just a few hours. We're gonna follow every step of the way. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:30:59] TAPPER: In our World Lead, the Kremlin today confirmed that Russian President Vladimir -- Vladimir Putin is scheduled to speak with President Trump tomorrow. Aboard Air Force One on Sunday, the President told reporters he hopes that after the call they will have something to announce about the U.S. proposal for a potential ceasefire between Russia and Ukraine. CNN's Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow. Fred, what sort of expectations are the Russians setting for the call and for the prospect of peace?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the Russians still have major reservations. It's certainly something that Vladimir Putin has said as well. And I think the main one, Jake, is really that the two positions are still pretty far apart, actually.

The Ukrainians have essentially signed on to a 30-day ceasefire without any preconditions, whereas the Russians are saying they want all the root causes, as they put it, that caused the conflict with Ukraine to be sorted out before the weapons are silenced.

Now, one of the things that the Kremlin scoffed at today was the idea of any sort of Western peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine to sort out the fact and enforce any sort of ceasefire, saying that would create new root causes, as they put it. Nevertheless, on the ground in Moscow, we asked some folks today whether they're optimistic about the prospect of peace, and they said they were. Here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I think that this phone call is good for our countries, and it will be good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I think everyone here is pursuing their own interests, so what they will agree on will depend.

PLEITGEN: You're very optimistic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

PLEITGEN: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I love my life, I love my country, and I think, oh, this will be good for our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Some Russians speaking to us earlier today. Meanwhile, Jake, the Kremlin has acknowledged that Vladimir Putin is already preparing for that phone call, having his staff prepare talking points with all of the main issues that the Russians want to get across to President Trump. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Moscow, thanks.

And joining us now is NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte. Secretary General Rutte, thanks for joining us. So you met with President Trump last week at the White House. Do you get the sense that he will be able to exert the same type of pressure successfully on Putin as he has been able to put on Zelenskyy?

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Absolutely. He -- I -- I think it is great that the Ukrainians and the U.S. side came to a joint position in Jeddah last week. And I have every trust in -- in President Trump and in his team to make sure that we will come to a lasting deal on this terrible war, which has to end. There are so many people dying and so many cities being destroyed. So we have to bring this to an end. And it was Trump who broke the deadlock. And that has been extremely important.

TAPPER: So just yesterday, President Trump mentioned that negotiators have already discussed, quote, dividing up certain assets, unquote, in Ukraine. Do you think it's inevitable that Ukraine is going to have to cede land to Russia to get peace?

RUTTE: Well, you know, I don't think it's very helpful if I would now start to conduct these negotiations myself through CNN. I really want to make sure that the President is in the best possible position. He is closely coordinating with NATO, with Europe, of course, with the -- with the Ukrainians. I think that is very helpful. And he has clearly in mind what he wants to achieve, and that is to bring this to a lasting peace as soon as possible.

And clearly, he and I, we all know that there is an audience of one witching or watching all of this, and that is the first secretary of the Communist Party of China, Xi Jinping. And he will absolutely be interested who comes out on top. And we have to make sure that it is the West coming out on top.

TAPPER: Let's talk specifically about the western region of Russia called Kursk, which was partially seized by Ukraine last summer. Right now, Putin claims Russian troops have encircled Kursk. But the Institute for the Study of War suggests that Putin is making dubious claims about the situation in Kursk in order to distract from the U.S.-backed ceasefire proposal. Zelenskyy says Putin is lying about the situation in Kursk, removing all of what everyone else has said. What is your empirical assessment of the situation in Kursk?

[17:35:29]

RUTTE: Well, I would generally say that I would not automatically believe what is coming out of the Russian system. We hear Putin, but also some of the other senior Russians claiming all kinds of things when it comes to Kursk, when it comes to a potential peace deal, what they will or will not accept. I, myself, when I was Prime Minister of the Netherlands, had intensive dealings with President Putin because we were one of the biggest investors in Russia.

And what I know is that you cannot automatically trust him. You have to verify because trust is very far out and very far away. And he will only come to a deal at the last minute. We know this with the Russians. So let's not lead too much into what they are saying.

TAPPER: The European Union's foreign policy chief says that the conditions that Putin has placed on the ceasefire negotiations show that Russia doesn't, quote, really want peace, unquote. Do you share that skepticism?

RUTTE: You know, all these kinds of comments from me are not helpful. Again, I want to make sure that the American president feels full support for what he is doing. And I fully trust in what he is doing.

And again, the American team, when I was in the White House, but also in my phone calls with the senior members of the American administration, they're really trying to get this to a good outcome. And all this type of commenting from outside is then not helpful. I -- I really want to make sure that they are successful.

And they have now with the Ukrainians, a clear agreement on the ceasefire. So the ball is now in the Russian court. It is the Russians who have to respond and who have to act -- to act now on this situation.

TAPPER: Last week, you also opened the door to restoring relations with Russia after the war is over. What might that look like?

RUTTE: Well, then we are talking about a very far out future, because when the war is over, trust will not have returned, not at all. It will take many, many years, maybe decades, before you can come to some sort of return of trust with the Russians.

I myself, when I was prime minister, I had to deal with the terrible disaster of MH17, the airplane coming down in the eastern part of Ukraine. All the -- everything established that it was the Russians responsible here. They never took responsibility.

I could never trust anything they did on this dossier. So let's make sure that when we get to a deal with them on Ukraine, that we can verify that it is lasting. And when we talk about return to normal relationships with the Russians, that will be for the very far future. I'm not at all optimistic about that.

TAPPER: So you've talked quite a bit about your skepticism of things that Putin and the Russians have said, understandable skepticism. Please, please don't misread me. Do you think that President Trump trusts Putin too much?

RUTTE: No, I think the President is absolutely clear in what he wants to achieve. He knows President Putin very well from his first term, so he knows how he has to make sure that he can get a deal done. I have full trust in that. We've discussed it, obviously, on Thursday. I cannot disclose what we discussed. That is, of course, very private.

But from those discussions, I have every confidence, again, in the President and his team to make sure that whatever comes out of this will be durable, will be lasting, will be strong for the future. And we have to really prevent Putin from ever, ever, ever again trying to attack Ukraine or any part of NATO territory in the future.

TAPPER: NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today, sir. RUTTE: Thank you for taking time.

[17:39:23]

TAPPER: The latest agencies to fall victim to Trump's massive debilitating cuts are government-funded media outlets that broadcast -- broadcast abroad. Why critics say these moves are, quote, a massive gift to America's enemies. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: In our politics lead, the U.S. State Department is now calling the rapid dismantling of the U.S. agency for Global Media a fluid situation. The agency, you should know, was behind global news outlets such as Radio Free Europe and Radio Free Asia and the Voice of America. These are news outlets responsible for giving news from the United States where there is a free and fair press around the world.

Voice of America alone reached a weekly audience of 350 million people in more than 40 different languages. And now that entire staff of 1,300 journalists has been putting so what will be the impact of these firings? Joining us now to discuss, Alsu Kurmasheva. You might remember her name, if not her face. She's a Radio Free Europe journalist who was freed in the prison exchange between the U.S. and Russia last August. And we would have her husband and daughter on to talk about her case. And Alsu, it's nice to be able to interview you about something other than your detention, and nice to have you free. But what was your reaction this past weekend?

[17:45:14]

ALSU KURMASHEVA, RUSSIAN-AMERICAN JOURNALIST FREED IN PRISONER EXCHANGE: Thank you, Jake, for having me.

TAPPER: What was your reaction this past weekend when you heard that these outlets, including Radio Free Europe, where you worked, have been gutted by the Trump administration? What -- what's going to be the impact of this?

KURMASHEVA: Well, impact will be enormous. Impact will be huge. I'll -- I'll -- I'll give you something from -- from my insight I just -- before talking to you, I looked in -- into my prison diary and what's the odds that such a coincidence, March 17th last year I -- I made a short note in my prison diary that I found the newspaper that I was waiting for a week on prisoner guards table.

I was subscribed -- my friend subscribed me to the last independent newspaper in Russia. And I knew I was getting the newspaper either on Friday or on Monday. Last year, March 17th was Wednesday and on Wednesday I didn't get it. And accidentally I just was passing by the guard's office and I saw it on the table which means that nobody is watching or listening or reading state propaganda. Even prisoner guards are reading independent information. This is what will happen. This will the -- the impact will be enormous.

Also we have people, 20 -- 200 journalists covering Ukrainian war in the field right now. The world depends on their coverage. Every third Ukrainian is reading and watching them and we need them there. We have more than 20 Iranian podcasts. Those are young people doing podcasts for their audience. But let's -- let's not think about Russians, Ukrainians, Iranians, let's talk about Americans, Jake. Let's talk about Americans.

How is America going to tell its story if in Russia Instagram and Facebook are banned as extremist organizations? X is blocked there. How is America going to do that? This -- this is the -- the impact that will be a long time impact and of course millions of viewers and listeners. There -- there can be empty space in -- in media. Somebody will fill in and Russia and Chinese propaganda will fill in.

TAPPER: Yeah. To be -- to be clear, the -- these governments or -- or these outlets are government funded, but they operate independently. So what message does slashing them and firing hundreds of journalists send to nations out there who don't support a free press, but maybe their citizens heard Voice of America or Radio Free Europe or -- or the like.

KURMASHEVA: Well, Radio Free Europe was always an independent media organization. Yes, we were funded by -- by grants by -- by American Congress, but were always, we got bipartisan support. We -- we got always, we were operating on -- on grants. And, you know, the -- the -- last year budget was $142 million and Russia and China spending 50 times more because Russia and China know that the power of -- soft power is enormous. It's a matter of safety. It's a matter of security. It's a matter of telling the story.

This is -- we are still in business. Nobody -- nobody quit, nobody resigned. Our leadership is working on it and we -- we hope we will stay in business. Why -- why -- why -- one way or another. We really appreciate all kind of support coming our way also suggestions and offers. We really appreciate that.

TAPPER: Yes.

KURMASHEVA: Whatever offer or support we get, we will accept also legal support. We really appreciate that. We are grateful.

TAPPER: What more do you need to know about how much Putin thinks Radio Free Europe is a threat and the fact that he locked up, Alsu Kurmasheva, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

[17:49:19]

They were supposed to spend just about a week on the International Space station. Now, nearly 10 months later, Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams are coming home. Their final preparations as they leave the International Space Station in just hours.

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TAPPER: In our Out of this World Lead, Butch and Suni are coming home. This comes after their planned eight-day trip to space turned into more than nine months because their original Boeing craft was deemed unsafe and then there was a delay in getting their replacements up to the International Space Station. CNN's Nick Valencia joins us now. Nick, what is the new schedule for Butch and Suni to return to Earth?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, originally, Jake, they were scheduled to come home no earlier than Wednesday, but that return was moved up by a day by NASA because of good weather, and when we were there at Kennedy Space Center on Friday, they told us it would take about four to seven days after Crew 10 docked at the International Space Station, before Crew 9 started to make their way back towards Earth. I checked in with NASA earlier today. They said that handover is going very smoothly, so much so that they fully expect Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams to make their way back down after more than 285 days in space.

[17:50:13]

Now, this is more than just a handover mission, though it's a routine handover mission on paper. In reality, it's so much more because of the President's comments, because of what Elon Musk has said. We asked the Deputy Administrator at NASA about those comments Musk made about bringing them home earlier. He claimed to have made that offer to the Biden administration. He said he wasn't part of that conversation.

We asked leadership at SpaceX. They also claimed that they weren't part of those conversations, so if Musk did really make that offer, we've yet to find anyone to verify it. The most important thing, though, is that these astronauts are finally coming home. Suni says she's looking forward to a good latte from her husband. Butch wants to go back to preaching at a local church. Both their families will be waiting for them there at the airport, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nick Valencia, thanks so much.

The court hearing ending just moments ago with the judge seeming quite unhappy and displeased with the Trump White House over deportations. Our teams were live inside the courtroom. Those updates coming to you live next.

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