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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Judge Scolds In Tense Hearing Over Deportation Orders; Trump Claims Jan. 6 Committee Pardons Are Void; At Least 42 Killed In Destructive Cross-Country Storms; White House Official Says He Will Return To Syria In Search For Tice; Forever 21 Is Going Out Of Business In The U.S.; New Orleans Named Top Food City For 2025. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired March 17, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, a court battle just wrapped minutes ago over whether the Trump White House violated a judge's order when the Trump administration deported alleged gang members from the United States to El Salvador over the weekend. Our team was inside the courtroom. We're going to bring you all the updates.

Plus, in the very final hours of his presidency, Joe Biden preemptively pardoned the members of the House January 6th Committee, among others. But now Trump is claiming those pardons are quote, void. Can Trump really nullify a pardon? Is this all just a pretext to litigate Biden's acuity? One of those January 6th Committee members is here to respond.

Also a destructive storm system tears across the United States, producing tornadoes and wildfires that decimated entire communities were on the ground in some of the hardest hit areas.

And the new details we're learning today into the investigation of the U.S. college student who disappeared on spring break. Are authorities in the Dominican Republic any closer to figuring out what really happened?

We're going to start with breaking news and this major court hearing that wrapped just minutes ago and CNN's Paula Reid, who has been tracking the intense developments. Paula?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This dramatic hearing, as you said, it just wrapped a few moments ago. And the reason this is significant is because this all represents an escalation of President Trump's expansive use of executive authority and the extent to which he and his lawyers believe courts can check him.

Now, this hearing covers the controversy over whether the Trump administration intentionally defied a judge's order Saturday, asking them to hold off on carrying out deportations of some migrants the U.S. Has accused of being affiliated with a Venezuelan gang. The order also said that the government needed to turn around any planes that were already in the air. So, today, the judge called a hearing demanding to know why that didn't happen.

Now, during this high stakes hearing, the judge was clearly not happy with the Justice Department's responses. The judge was shaking his head, clearly frustrated as he demanded answers about why they didn't comply. And the judge insisted when they argued that they did not need to comply because some of these planes were already out of U.S. airspace, he said, it's clear, his powers do not lapse at the continent's edge. The judge signed up how he viewed the Justice Department's argument saying, we don't care. We'll do what we want.

Now, the government disagreed with that assessment. We didn't get a ruling or sort of any anything conclusive, like sanctions or anything today, but the Justice Department did get some homework. At the outset, the judge said today was all about gathering information. But that proved to be difficult because the Justice Department refused to answer a lot of factual questions that the judge had about these flights, what's on them, what time they landed.

So, by noon tomorrow, he is demanding answers from the Justice Department to a series of questions, including wanting more information about how many planes departed the U.S., how many people in certain categories were in each plane, what foreign country or countries did they land in, what time they took off, what time they left U.S. airspace, and what time they landed in each country.

Now, the judge was a little cheeky. He said he would put all these instructions in writing because the Justice Department, he said, does not want to obey his oral orders. The long game here, Jake, is, of course, to try to get before the Supreme Court because senior administration officials tell me they are confident that the super conservative majority at the high court will agree with Trump's expansive use of his power here.

And it's interesting, in an unusual request earlier today, the Justice Department wanted to cancel this whole hearing. And if you look at who signed that request, it was every single senior leader at the Justice Department, proving that these are not just legal arguments, they are also political ones.

TAPPER: All right. Paula Reid, thanks so much.

Let's turn now to CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House for us. Jeff, what is the White House saying about the charge that they defied a judge's orders?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, it basically breakdowns in a couple different answers. One, they are saying that they did comply with the order, but, two, they are saying they do not believe the judge has the right to make that order.

So, clearly, the White House is trying to dial down the temperature, if you will, to not look like they're ignoring it or defying it. However, several White House officials, including Deputy White House Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, spent much of the afternoon going after the actual order itself. And they're saying the president has wide authority, wide latitude on matters of foreign affairs, on matters of the military.

[18:05:02]

So, they are hiding behind those arguments.

But earlier today, the White House press secretary, she seemed to draw a distinction between that oral order that Paula was talking about and the written one. And that was presented in the hearing to the judge, and he said, that's a heck of a statement.

So, look, the bottom line to this is the White House is waiting to see. But this is many officials here have been sort of moving toward this. They know that this is likely to end up in the Supreme Court at some point. That is a possibility. So, one of these many expansive uses of presidential authority will be questioned by the Supreme Court.

But the president, he is defending this. He said that he does believe this is an act of war. Of course, all of this stems from that 1798 law that has only been used three times in American history.

TAPPER: That's right. John Adams signed it into law. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

With us now to discuss, CNN Anchor and Chief Legal Analyst Laura Coates and CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig.

And, Laura, I want to play a little bit about what White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller told our Kasie Hunt on the show right before this one about the Trump administration's view of the court order. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY OF STAFF FOR POLICY: The district court has no ability to in any way restrain the president's authorities under the Alien Enemies Act or its ability to conduct the foreign affairs of the United States.

District court judges do not have the authority, as a general matter, to enjoin the functioning of the executive branch. But their authority is at its lowest point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, it's the lowest point when it has to do with the president issuing orders having to do with foreign policy, which -- that's the argument, that this is about foreign policy. What's your take?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, yes, the president of the United States does have, not carte blanche, but a lot of authority when it comes to foreign policy. However, they are wrong to suggest that the judicial branch of our government cannot act as a check or a balance against that authority. Otherwise there'd be no purpose in having the three co-equal branches of government.

The Alien Act we're talking about gives a summary deportation authority, if we are at war with a particular country and there are people who are there, or there's an invasion. He did try to declare its executive order. There's an invasion of people who had illegally migrated to this country, but it's actually Congress has to declare a war, one. And, two, the idea that a drug cartel has invaded in some way is different from actually a foreign nation. So, they're trying to essentially conflate a number of principles to try to give themselves the credibility to do what they're doing right now.

The reason you have the judge, as Paula outlined, all the different questions is because he can't just thumb his nose if there was a valid court order that was testing the boundaries of executive authority. He can't just declare, I can do whatever I want. If he did, well, you're before John Adams times, aren't you? You're now back to a king.

TAPPER: Elie, let me ask you about how you think the U.S. Supreme Court as currently composed will interpret the law, the 1890 -- I'm sorry, the 1798 law that John Adams signed into law about this could be invoked during a war or during an invasion. Now, this judge clearly doesn't think that what's going on with foreign drug cartels, even if President Trump has declared them to be terrorists, that it doesn't count as an invasion. Do you think that there will be a majority in the Supreme Court that actually say, you know what? We think that President Trump can decide this because he's the president and we judge this that it's up to him?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jake, there's two things that the administration's going to have to show to any court, maybe eventually the Supreme Court, in order to uphold the way that it has used the Alien Enemies Act here. First of all, that there is an invasion. And if you look at the president's declaration from hours before this all started, he says we're under an invasion by this gang.

The second thing that they're going to have to show is that the invasion had something to do with a foreign government. And so there's all this language in the proclamation about how this gang, Tren de Aragua, is actually an arm, a branch somehow affiliated with the Maduro government in Venezuela.

I think both of those arguments, just from an objective point of view, I think both of those arguments are uphill. I think they're stretches, but the real question is going to be how broadly does this Supreme Court define the executive's authority. And given the conservative leanings, given the pro-executive leanings of the Supreme Court, I would not be shocked if the Supreme Court ultimately says that this is a valid use of that power.

TAPPER: Elie, can judges do anything if the president defies their orders?

HONIG: Well, so part of the problem here is there are things judges can do, but they're not especially effective remedies. The main thing a judge can do is issue contempt sanctions, but those are fairly light. Those are really slaps on the wrist. I think if you were to go back and ask the founders, John Adams and others, what's the remedy if there's a finding that the president intentionally defies the court, I think what they would tell you perhaps idealistically is, well, the answer we built into the Constitution is impeachment. But we live in reality in 2025.

[18:10:01]

We know that's not going to happen.

TAPPER: Laura, I want to turn to another story we're following. It's a fascinating stuff. A Brown University doctor and professor was deported last week. This is after ICE agents at Boston's local airport looked in her phone, found pictures in the deleted photo section of her phone of prominent leaders of Hezbollah, which the United States considers to be a terrorist group. Hezbollah has killed Americans as well as others.

The professor, a woman named Rasha Alawieh, she was in the U.S. on a visa. She's a Lebanese citizen, I believe. She was at the airport returning from Lebanon. It appears that she was in Lebanon to attend the funeral of Hassan Nasrallah, who is the leader of Hezbollah, the terrorist group, and he was killed by Israel. Can Customs and Border Patrol agents, can ICE agents stop noncitizens and look at their phone?

COATES: This will surprise you. There is wide authority in terms of entering the United States and your electronic devices. Now, if you are a citizen versus a noncitizen, you're going to have different spectrum when you can actually be stopped. You're not prevented from actually entering the country if you say are a citizen and don't allow someone to open your phone or give over the password but your phone doesn't have to come with you. They can confiscate or seize it temporarily. If you're talking about somebody who's a noncitizen, you have less rights.

But the idea of the Customs and Borders Control, they have a lot of authority to search, to be able to examine, and to be able to say who can come into the country and who cannot. Now, this will surprise people because of the Fourth Amendment. Everyone says, there's got to be a warrant if you're looking at my property. When you're talking about an airport or entering a port of entry, in particular internationally, the rules are very different. There's much more authority for those who are in charge of the comings and goings of people, citizen or not. But her not being a citizen will give her less rights to be able to come back into the country.

TAPPER: All right. Laura Coates, Elie Honig, thanks to both of you.

Tune in tonight and every weeknight at 11:00 P.M. Eastern for Laura Coates, live fantastic show, 11:00 P.M. Eastern, 8:00 P.M. Pacific.

President Trump is claiming that pardons issued by President Biden are now void. Can he do that? I'm going to speak with one of those preemptive pardon recipients who had a very strongly worded message for President Trump today.

Plus, tornadoes, high winds, wildfires, decimating communities in the United States over the weekend. We're going to go to some of the hardest hit areas, next.

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[18:15:00]

TAPPER: And we are back with more in our Politics Lead, President Trump declaring on his social media site, Truth Social, that the pardons President Biden issued preemptively to the members of January 6th committee are, quote, void. Trump's reasoning while he says President Biden signed them using a, quote, auto pen and President Biden did not have the acuity to know what he was doing. That's the claim.

CNN's Evan Perez is with us now. Evan, what did Trump's message say? And explain to our viewers what an auto pen is.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, I mean, so it's a machine, essentially, that affixes the signature of the president on legislation, on letters. It's been in practice and it's been used for decades. President Obama was the first president to use it to sign legislation.

And what the president is doing, President Trump is doing right now is really trolling President Biden. First of all, he's trying to explore whether President Biden even knew what he was signing.

TAPPER: Right.

PEREZ: And we don't even know whether the pardons, by the way, that he's upset about whether those were signed by auto pen. We have no idea.

TAPPER: Oh, we haven't seen them.

PEREZ: We have not seen them. But what we've seen them we've seen the pardons, but we don't know whether they were signed by him or whether they were done by machine.

TAPPER: Okay.

PEREZ: And so I'll read you just part of what the President Trump says in his Truth Social post. He says. The pardons that sleepy Joe Biden gave to the unselect committee of political thugs and many others are hereby declared void, vacant and no further force or effect. And he calls for investigations of the people who were granted those pardons, Jake.

And, look, a lot of this again is him continuing to raise questions as to whether Joe Biden was actually mentally there when he was president. Again, that's something that he litigated in the 2024 political campaign and won, right? And so it's not clear, though, that he is right that those pardons are null and void. That's something that, you know, frankly, it's going to be up to him if he wants to fight that.

TAPPER: Has a presidential pardon ever been challenged this way before?

PEREZ: No, not in this way. In 2005, President Bush's Justice Department, the Office of Legal Counsel, actually wrote an opinion on this, and I'll read you just part of what they say. They say the president need not personally perform the physical act of affixing his signature to a bill he approves and decides to sign in order for that bill to become law. That's an important opinion. It's 2005 where this issue actually was raised in the Bush administration.

Again, President Obama is the first one that we know of that used it to sign legislation. It had been done for decades to sign presidential letters and so on. So, the question now is, does President Trump want to actually litigate this? Does he want to challenge this in court? Presidents have unrivaled power to grant pardons. That much is clear.

TAPPER: Yes, I suspect it has a lot more to do with the Biden part of it than the auto pen part of it.

All right, Evan Perez, thank you so much.

With us now to discuss one of those pardoned, although he didn't ask for it preemptively, former member of the January 6th Select Committee, Republican former Congressman Adam Kinzinger.

So, again, you were pardoned. You didn't ask for a pardon. It was preemptive just in case Trump's Justice Department goes after you and other members of the January 6th committee. What was your reaction when you saw Trump's post last night declaring your preemptive pardon void and vacant?

[18:20:00]

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first off, I'm trying to figure out what he's trying to distract from, because that's what all this is. Always a distraction to try to get people's attention, or maybe he hasn't felt like he's gotten enough attention, or maybe he hasn't felt like he's got enough attention. But, look, Jake, it's like, bring it on.

Like, honestly, so, you know, we had an election. I fought against Donald Trump. I wanted Kamala Harris to win. January 6th was a big thing, but America made a different choice. Fine. I'm ready to move on. I'm like, look, we made it very clear what happened on January 6th. America made a decision.

There is one person that's obsessed about the 6th because he still has been basically deemed guilty in the court of public opinion, and that's Donald Trump. And he can't handle it. He obsesses about it. So, my reaction to him is like, you know what? Then bring it. Like, stop talking about it stop being overboast, stop pretending like you're tough, bring the charges in if you really want to do it because we will crush you in court and it'll make me three times more effective against you.

Look, honestly, Jake, I'm just -- I'm ready to move on too. But if he wants to keep bringing it up, bring it up or be quiet. That's how I feel. I want you to take a listen to pardons on Air Force One last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's not my decision. That'll be up to a court. But I would say that that's null and void because I'm sure Biden didn't have any idea that it was taking place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Could you hear that okay? I can read that too if you didn't.

KINZINGER: Yes.

TAPPER: Okay. So, did you think Trump's move to say the pardon, in his view, is void is because he wants to investigate the January 6th committee members? Or do you think this is more about trying to reopen a discussion about President Biden's mental acuity, which, of course, could also serve, as you say, as a distraction?

KINZINGER: It's probably a little of both. Look, I think he's obsessed with January 6th and there's no doubt if he could break the law and come after us, he would. And, you know, again, we come in the court of law. But I also think, yes, look, if you -- everything about -- I mean, he'll give -- when he had Zelenskyy in the Oval Office, he was going after Joe Biden. This guy obsesses about Joe Biden because the only time he ran against him, Joe Biden beat him. And that bothers him.

And so he's -- so yes, I think he's constantly trying to change people's view on Joe Biden because he gets stuck. I mean, he's trying to negotiate a solution to the biggest war in Europe, but the guy is obsessed with this vengeance.

I mean, Donald Trump, you won. At what point are you like, yes, I won, I'm vindicated. I feel vindicated, but he can't. He's a small man that just continues to get angry and it's like, fine, bring it on then.

TAPPER: Here's some news for you that you probably don't know. President Trump just posted on Truth Social that he is ending the U.S. Secret Service protection for two of President Biden's kids, President Biden's son, Hunter, and his daughter, Ashley. What's your reaction to that?

KINZINGER: This is -- it's just childish. I mean, he did it for John Bolton, Mike Pompeo. This is just a way for vengeance. And, by the way, Pompeo was a big supporter of Donald Trump.

This is dangerous. Somebody is going to get hurt. And when they get hurt, it's going to blow back on Trump. And, you know, look, I hope the next president doesn't do this to Donald Trump and I mean that and his family, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do now. He's a very dangerous precedent. And, again, it's just -- this is what happens when you put a 78-year-old toddler in the White House, unfortunately.

TAPPER: Former Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, thanks so much. I Appreciate it.

A deadly storm system produced not just tornadoes, but also sparked wildfires, destroying hundreds of homes. I'm going to talk to a mayor from one of the impacted communities about what the rebuilding process might look like.

Stay with us.

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[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, at least 42 people have been killed after a powerful storm tore across the United States this weekend, violent tornadoes with winds as high as 190 miles per hour leveled entire communities.

CNN's Rafael Romo is in one hard hit community in Alabama where residents are left picking up the pieces.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A path of destruction after a powerful storm system unleashed a wave of tornadoes killing more than 40 people in eight states.

JAMES STEWART, VOLUNTEER, REVIVE CHURCH, TALLADEGA, ALABAMA: It's a disaster. It's a disaster. I've seen nothing like this since I was a kid. I've seen a few tornadoes in my lifetime and a couple of hurricanes. Other than that, this is pretty bad.

ROMO: One of the hardest hit states, Alabama. Homes leveled, trees and power poles snapped like twigs. Part of this Alpine high school shredded. A school bus tossed onto the building.

Volunteers now cleaning up the mess and looking at a long road to rebuild.

PASTOR CHARLES KELLY, WINTERBORO COMMUNITY CHURCH, ALIPINE ALABAMA: As far as this community goes, what we're going to see is we're going to see people rallying around each other. You're going to see people at their best in the days ahead.

ROMO: This is only one of many communities deeply impacted by a series of storms that unleashed a deadly wave of tornadoes across the Central and Southern U.S. since Friday.

Another hard hit state, Missouri, where at least 12 people died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just a rough -- it was a very rough deal last night. We found a few bodies that was out in the field, a few deceased people.

ROMO: Similar images across the southeast. Livelihoods disrupted and debris everywhere. The National Weather Service said two EF-4 tornadoes tore through Arkansas.

ASHTON VICKERS, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: This is my hometown and just to see it the way it is is just heartbreaking. It almost makes you want to cry.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMO (on camera): Here in Alabama, authorities have confirmed three deaths, including an 83-year-old man who lived in a mobile home in the community of Winterboro here in Talladega County. Alabama Governor Kay Ivey said earlier in a statement that damage has been reported in 52 of the state's 67 counties.

[18:30:00]

Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Rafael Romo, thank you so much.

The storm system also brought powerful gusts, which in combination with dry air and soil, spread wildfires at an alarming rate. In Oklahoma alone, more than 130 wildfires scorched hundreds of homes and killed at least four people.

Joining us now is Mayor Alice Cottle of Pawnee, Oklahoma. Mayor Cottle, how are the people of your town holding up?

MAYOR ALICE COTTLE, PAWNEE, OKLAHOMA: They're holding up pretty good. They were ready to respond. We started preparing for it last week when we started looking at the conditions look like that was going to be pretty obvious we were going to be dealing with some major fires.

The fire department actually just about 20 minutes ago before I jumped on, they just took off for another call in the same area where we had about 10,000 acres burn.

TAPPER: We know of at least four fatalities in Oklahoma. Has everyone else been accounted for? Do you know?

COTTLE: Yes, we had one fatality here in Pawnee County and we lost about 86 homes.

TAPPER: What kind of support is being offered to those who lost their homes and are you getting enough support from the state and from the federal government?

COTTLE: Yes, we're just starting to receive that support and the community here in Pawnee County is great. I mean, as soon as things started getting really out of hand on Friday, we had people jumping in to create stations, churches opening up their doors, schools. It's been great. Everybody always jumps in with food, water, you know, games for kiddos. Everyone started and donations for everybody that's now been misplaced by the fire.

TAPPER: What lessons, if any, have you learned from this experience in terms of preparing for another disaster?

COTTLE: You know, just to really be able to get a good support system going for these firefighters. They're volunteers. We have 11 fire districts here in Pawnee County and then Pawnee Nation is a great fire department, just to be able to provide them support, let them know that we're here to help them in any way for them to reach out, for us to provide donations and just, you know, kind of just cheer them on as there are local heroes, and they're just taking care of us.

TAPPER: I know strong storms are not uncommon in Oklahoma. What has it been like for you to see this devastation?

COTTLE: It's just heartbreaking. You know, you're sitting here and you're listening to the calls on the radio. You're listening to the guys and the girls out fighting fire. You're listening to the calls come in with people wondering what to do. You just -- your heart just breaks for everybody and you just want to reach out to everybody and, you know, just give them all the support you can possibly find and provide for them.

TAPPER: And what does the rebuilding process look like? You said 80- something homes were destroyed.

COTTLE: Yes, we're still working on that. We just started getting a lot of support today. I just talked with Pawnee County Emergency Management and we'll speak again soon on what the next steps are right now. We're just trying to make sure that everybody has a place to stay and the items that they need.

TAPPER: Mayor Alice Cottle of Pawnee, Oklahoma. Thanks and God bless to your citizens. I hope their recovery is okay.

COTTLE: All right. Thank you so much.

TAPPER: With the party divided on how to fight Republicans, the Democratic Party, there's a new book out that one Democrat says is the liberal answer to Project 2025, and the August (ph) author is here to explain. That's next.

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[18:35:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead today, a new step for the Trump administration's mission to scrub DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, from the U.S. military. Visitors to the website for Arlington National Cemetery where our veterans are buried can no longer find information specifically about African-American, Hispanic, or female service members prominently displayed. It is a major blow for educators and for history buffs, especially.

Of course, it wasn't the African-American or women veterans who chose to single themselves out. It was the U.S. military, which previously had discriminated against them and then reversed when the Pentagon led in efforts for the United States to fulfill its promise of equality, sometimes leading American society.

CNN's Oren Liebermann is here. Orrin, what kinds of pages have been changed, taken down, reorganized? What exactly is going on here?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: So, you used to be able to go to Arlington National Cemetery's website and find all kinds of information on prominent African-Americans who've been buried there, prominent women who've been buried there, as well as prominent Hispanics and others. It's celebrated the service of the minorities and their accomplishments. Some of that has been changed, some of it has been removed.

If you look at, for example, this, this is language about African- American history that has been changed. Women's history, there was an education program for women's history that doesn't seem to be there. So, that's what we see altered or changed.

For example, Colin Powell, first black secretary of state, first black chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He used to be listed on door African-American service members who were buried there. Now, he is still listed but under politics and government, and there is no reference at all to him being a black veteran here. He is simply listed sort of generically under his role. And that appears to be the case for many of the other notable graves that had been listed there.

A spokeswoman for Arlington National Cemetery said this when we queried, we are proud of our educational content and programming and working diligently to return removed content to ensure alignment with Department of Defense Instruction 5400.17 and executive orders issued by the president.

Jake, it's a continuation of the effort we talked about several days ago, essentially purging divids and social media for the Department of Defense from anything they deem DEI, and this is effectively more of that. No references to Black History Month or Women's History. A lot of the content is still there, but not searchable. As anything specific to the ethnicity or minority of those who are buried at Arlington.

[18:40:03]

A reminder to Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, we'd love to have you on to talk about some of these issues.

Oren Liebermann, thanks so much.

Speaking of government shakeups, a new book questioning Democrats' longstanding approach to governance is already making waves and it hasn't even been published.

Joining us now, New York Times opinion columnist Ezra Klein. He co- authored the new book, out tomorrow, Abundance, along with The Atlantic's Derek Thompson. It's a great read. Ezra, congratulations. So, your book examines the failures of liberal government, you write, quote, laws meant to ensure that government considers the consequence of its actions have made it too difficult for government to act consequentially. And you attribute these restrictive laws to Democrats' policies. Do you think, in some ways, that DOGE is a natural reaction to the way that this government has been functioning for decades?

EZRA KLEIN, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES OPINION: I want to call it a natural reaction. Something like what DOGE promised to be might have been a natural reaction. There's all kinds of red tape you could cut, all kinds of things you could make quicker. The Biden administration got $42 billion for world broadband, hooked up basically nobody because it had this 14-stage process states had to go through in order to qualify. In the three or four years that that was operative, three states made it through the process. So, you can do a lot to make government more efficient.

But DOGE is a wrecking ball, right? What they're trying to do is break the government and then be able to control it. You sort of should understand DOGE is an ideological conquering operation. And they've all been very clear about that, I think. And you look at the kinds of things are taken apart, like USAID or the Department of Education, the Department of Education is incredibly efficient. It has one of the smallest staffs for one of the larger grants in the federal government and also controls more than a trillion dollars in college funding.

So, I would love a Department of Government Efficiency, but what we have is a department of government destruction.

TAPPER: You're from California. You cite that state's high speed rail project, the disproportionate rate of homelessness, the lack of affordable housing in places like San Francisco and Los Angeles as examples of the failure of liberal government. What is your prescription for your home state? How would you fix it? Is it as simple as eliminating red tape?

KLEIN: It's not as simple as eliminating red tape. There are places where what you need to make it possible for the government to build, places where you need to make it possible for the market to build. But I think the big thing here is we are arguing that liberalism needs to refocus itself on a different question. It has gotten used to asking what can it subsidize, right? Can it subsidize higher education through Pell Grants or housing through rental vouchers? And all these are, you know, health insurance through Obamacare and all of these are great projects. I mean, you know how much I covered the Affordable Care Act.

I've spent most of my career arguing for universal health insurance. But you also have to look at the supply of the things that you want people to have. If you don't have enough homes, well then, why not? What can you do to alleviate that? If you don't have clean energy, and we don't have enough clean energy, why not? What can you do to speed its construction? If you don't have enough public infrastructure, and we don't, but what's going wrong? Why is the Second Avenue subway in New York City so expensive? Why was the big dig such a disaster? Why was high speed rail such a disaster? Why did the Biden administration only get a couple dozen electric vehicle chargers built for $7.5 billion? Why is that going so slowly?

So, this question of moving to the other side of the ledger, the ledger of supply, or at least also being able to ask that question, is we hope a sort of ability to bring in a new toolkit for liberalism, one that it had in the New Deal era, but lost in this era. And we think is behind the problems that the blue states have, and liberals have in government, getting ahead on cost of living, which is in part why they lost the 2024 election, which was at the end an affordability election.

TAPPER: So, The New York Times' Astead Herndon, posted last week, quote, I find it so telling the Democrats don't have a Project 2025 of their own. So much time arguing over the right way to perform Trump opposition when their real problem is lack of competing vision, to which a Democratic congressman from New York, Richie Torres, responded with. I have an idea and a cover of your book.

Do you see Abundance as a Democratic both reckoning and also answer to Project 2025? The first section of your book paints this idyllic utopian picture of what it could mean theoretically to have these liberal ideas brought to policymaking into fruition. But it does just seem like none of that's ever going to happen.

KLEIN: It's a vision of the future. We're not at the point yet. I mean, project 2025 did not come out in 2021, early 2021. What we're offering is a vision of the future that could help orient Democrats towards what we think would be a better alternative to Trumpism. You're going to need an opposition, what gets called a resistance, but you're also going to need an alternative.

And I think the problem Democrats ended up having in 2024, and there were a lot of problems with Joe Biden and other things, but they were strong on resistance, but not ultimately strong on the alternative vision.

[18:45:01]

You can't just tell people why the other guys are bad. You're also going to have to convince them that you can bring things to the table that will genuinely improve their lives. And you've also heard the complaints about what you did wrong last time.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The book is fantastic. I recommend it to everybody watching right now.

Ezra Klein, thank you so much. "Abundance" hits bookstores tomorrow.

KLEIN: Thank you.

TAPPER: A resilient mother's fight to find her missing son more than a decade later. Debra Tice is here to explain how she's reaching out to world leaders, even Putin, for help finding her son Austin.

Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: This just in, in our world lead. The White House says that Adam Boehler, President Trump's pick to serve as special presidential envoy for hostage affairs, has withdrawn his nomination so he will not have to divest from his company. Boehler will continue to serve as a special government employee focused on hostage negotiations, unquote.

Boehler played a key role in getting Marc Fogel released from Russia in February.

[18:50:04]

He told me earlier this month that he plans to go to Syria to investigate the whereabouts of U.S. journalist Austin Tice, who has been held in Syria for more than 12 years.

Austin's mother, Debra Tice, joins us now live in studio. You were here this weekend for the Gridiron Dinner --

DEBRA TICE, AUSTIN TICE'S MOTHER: Right.

TAPPER: -- where journalists honor journalists who are absent or kidnapped, such as Austin.

So it's interesting. I want to ask you about Boehler still focusing on hostage negotiations.

Do you happen to know if he is still planning to go to Syria, as he told me he was going to do, to find out more about your sons whereabouts? And do you know when or any more details about that?

TICE: No, I don't know -- I don't know any more details about that. But I know that Adam is still all in.

TAPPER: Okay.

TICE: Yeah.

TAPPER: How have your interactions been so far with the Trump administration compared to the first Trump administration, 2017 to 2021?

TICE: It's been fantastic. His team started reaching out to me shortly after the election. And I -- and I took that deeply into my heart for them to reach out for them to initiate to me before inauguration.

TAPPER: Yeah. Pretty incredible.

TICE: Yeah.

TAPPER: So you went back to Syria in January of this year. We aired a story about that because it was the first time you'd been there since 2015. You, along with CNN's Clarissa Ward, went into one of the prisons where you believed that Austin had been held. We should note, of course, for those who don't know, it wasn't safe for you to go to Syria between 2015 and this year.

You also met with Syria's interim president, Ahmed al-Sharaa. What was that experience like for you? And do you plan to go back to Syria?

TICE: I do plan to go back to Syria and my engagement with al-Sharaa was incredibly uplifting. He was very earnest. And, you know, committed that families be reunited because he was also a prisoner in Iraq.

And so, he -- he was very sincere. He was amazing. He was incredibly thoughtful. I mean, thinking full, you know?

TAPPER: Yeah.

TICE: Yeah, he was impressive.

TAPPER: You told Clarissa when you were in Syria that what it -- that it felt like first grade trying to figure out who could be holding Austin. What your next way forward is? Have you have you made any progress since then?

TICE: Not. No -- I mean, you know, it breaks my heart that we have known where Austin was and our government wouldn't just get him out. And now we don't really know where he is.

TAPPER: What --

TICE: And that's challenging.

TAPPER: Yeah. No, that's awful when it comes to finding your son, I know you'll do about anything -- do just about anything, as any mom would, any parent would. You even wrote a letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin in December and he mentioned it in his annual press conference.

TICE: Yes, he did. He mentioned Austin's name twice in his press conference, which he only has one once a year.

TAPPER: Right.

TICE: And --

TAPPER: The Russians have a lot of pull or did in Syria. Do you think he's going to help at all?

TICE: I hope so, I truly hope so. I mean, Bashar al-Assad is in Russia and, you know, that's what I was asking of President Putin was please ask Bashar al-Assad where is Austin Tice now.

TAPPER: Have you talked to any Russian officials since then?

TICE: No, I haven't.

TAPPER: I'm sure you've reached out.

TICE: Yes. TAPPER: You just haven't been able to get through.

TICE: Yes.

TAPPER: What would be your message to Austin if he could hear you right now?

TICE: Just -- I just want him to just hang in there. We're still coming for him. We're still looking for him. And the one thing that I pray for him and pray so much is that he walks out forgiving so that he will be truly free when he does walk out.

TAPPER: Sounds like a great opportunity for President Trump and Vladimir Putin to lean on Assad, to get some information and get your son back.

TICE: I think so.

TAPPER: Yeah.

TICE: Let's do it that way.

TAPPER: Let's hope, let's hope that happens.

Debra Tice --

TICE: Yes.

TAPPER: -- thank you so much.

TICE: Thank you so much.

TAPPER: Come back. We'll keep covering this until he's back. And God bless you and God bless Austin.

TICE: Thank you, Jake. Thank you so much.

TAPPER: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:58:40]

TAPPER: In our world lead, authorities in the Dominican Republic have now confiscated the passport of college student Joshua Riibe, the last person known to have been with now missing University of Pittsburgh student Sudiksha Konanki before she disappeared. That is according to a source close to the investigation.

Riibe is not considered to be a suspect in the case, but was expected to meet with a local prosecutor today. We will continue to cover this story.

In our money lead, it is the end of an era. Forever 21 is going out of business. The fashion company filed for bankruptcy for a second time Sunday. Forever 21 stores will still remain open for now, but the company says its starting a, quote, orderly, wind down and will have liquidation sales.

In our world lead, the results are in. And New Orleans is ranked the best city in the world for food in 2025. Publishing company Time Out surveyed more than 18,000 people to determine the top 20 cities for dining. Bangkok, Thailand, came in second, while Medellin, Colombia, Cape Town, South Africa, and Madrid, Spain, rounded out the top five.

I have coming out two books. In May, "Original Sin", about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and the cover up of his decline.

And in October race against terror about the hunt to prosecute an al Qaeda terrorist who killed Americans and was out to kill more. You can check them both out at JakeTapper.com, and preorder if you so desire. You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, Substack, and on TikTok @JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN.

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show once you get your podcasts.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. Take it away, Erin.