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The Lead with Jake Tapper
DOJ Granted One More Day To Turn Over Deportation Flight Data; Angry Americans Confront Lawmakers In Raucous Town Halls; Top FDA Attorney Quits After Backlash Over Abortion Pill Case; Which Is Healthier: Animal Fats Or Plant-Based Oils? Aired 5-6p ET
Aired March 19, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Any of you name your kids the same thing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
HUNT: Alex --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
HUNT: -- any plans?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
HUNT: Jake Tapper, what about you?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I have a Jack. My son is Jack Tapper. But it's different.
HUNT: Well, obviously passing your name down to one of your children is a totally, you know, hallowed tradition here in the United States. But then having them share the same name with two, in this case, additional people?
TAPPER: I don't know. I hadn't even thought about it. We have four pets. Maybe I should have named them all Jack -- Jake.
HUNT: Four dogs named Jake Tapper, yes, that would be confusing or anything.
TAPPER: That would have -- that wouldn't something. Anyway, thanks, Kasie.
HUNT: Thanks, Jake.
TAPPER: We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.
HUNT: See you soon.
[17:00:32]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The Trump administration is not backing off attacking judges who rule against them. The Lead starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have judges who are acting as partisan activists from the bench. They are trying to clearly slow walk this administration's agenda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: If it is unacceptable, how far will President Trump go if he does not like a judge's orders? Well, we may soon find out as a legal fight plays out between President Trump and a judge over alleged Venezuelan gang members deported and flown to a prison in El Salvador.
Plus, testy town halls as lawmakers face their voters at home from Trump and DOGE to the economy and immigration, Republicans getting an earful. Democrats also getting an earful about entirely different issues. And what the Fed said and did not say today that could impact your bottom line. Is there a risk of recession? The future of you and your money ahead.
Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start in our law and justice lead in a legal battle between the White House and a judge increasingly escalating every day. Today, U.S. District Judge James Boasberg extended his deadline, giving the Trump Justice Department one more day to hand over more information about the deportation flights carried out last Saturday. That's, of course, when the Trump administration, invoking the Alien Enemies Act, used that act to deport alleged members of a Venezuelan gang.
Now, Judge Boasberg wants to know if the Trump administration ignored his orders to ground deportation flights, whether they failed to turn around a plane set to land in El Salvador. And he wants to know more as well. Today, the Justice Department asked for an extension. The judge did grant that. Tomorrow the Trump administration could provide details about the flights, including when the planes took off and exactly who were the roughly 200 people being deported on board.
We still don't know who they are. Or President Trump could try to invoke what is called the state secrets privilege and avoid divulging any specifics. This all comes as President Trump continues to rail against this specific judge on Truth Social, accusing Judge Boasberg of, quote, trying to "assume the role of president," a tone echoed at the White House today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: The judge in this case is essentially trying to say that the president doesn't have the executive authority to deport foreign terrorists from our American soil. That is an egregious abuse of the bench. This judge cannot -- does not have that authority. It is the opinion of this White House and of this administration, and that's why we're fighting this in court.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: It is notable that this rhetorical assault comes one day after the Chief justice of the United States, John Roberts, seemed to be issuing a warning directly to the White House about the language it uses about judges, especially when it disagrees with their rulings. Let's start today with CNN anchor and Chief Washington -- Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins.
Kaitlan, so we just heard Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt addressing this ongoing legal battle between the White House and this judge today. Tell us more of what she had to say.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, it was just about 48 hours ago that Karoline Leavitt was inside the briefing room saying that the president himself had not personally called for the impeachment of this judge, only his allies had. People like Elon Musk and others. But now that the president himself has also joined that chorus, she is defending the president's calls for Judge Boasberg's impeachment, instead attacking the judge, ramping up the attacks against him and accusing him of overreaching when it comes to his authority in this matter, saying that a single judge cannot make the decision here when it comes to national security or immigration efforts that are conducted on the President's behalf. And also had this to say, Jake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: The judge in this case is essentially trying to say that the president doesn't have the executive authority to deport foreign terrorists from our American soil. That is an egregious abuse of the bench. This judge cannot -- does not have that authority. It is the opinion of this White House and of this administration, and that's why we're fighting this in court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: They also attacked him, Jake, as an Obama appointed judge. Yes, he was elevated by President Obama in 2010 to the district court, but it was actually before that, it was President George W. Bush who nominated him to the Superior Court. So that was an.
Judge yes, he was elevated by President Obama in 2010 to the district court, but it was actually before that that it was President George W. Bush who nominated him to the Superior Court. So that was initially actually where he was nominated. Of course, we've seen President Trump before attack judges based on who nominated them, though criticizing others for attacking judges like Judge Aileen Cannon.
[17:05:20]
But Jake, really, what's at the heart of this and the ruling here is this is a temporary ruling by Judge Boasberg. It may not actually be where this matter ends up. He might actually end up agreeing with the administration on the underlying issues. They could win out there. This is a temporary pause that he ordered.
And that is why he has raised this question ever since Saturday night when he ordered planes not to take off if they were deporting someone under this Wartime Powers Act that Trump used or to turn the planes around. And they defied that and did not turn those planes around, saying that because they were over international waters, they did not feel that he had the jurisdiction to do so. That's where it's raised this question, Jake, of whether or not they are ultimately complying with these orders.
TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.
Tonight on Kaitlan's show, "The Source with Kaitlan Collins," she's going to speak with Rebecca Kelly Slaughter, one of the fired Democrats at the Federal Trade Commission, the agency charged with enforcing consumer protection and antitrust laws. That interview tonight at 9:00 Eastern only here on CNN.
With me now to discuss, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. Also with us, retired California Superior Court Judge LaDoris Hazzard Cordell.
Elie, is it normal to see a back and forth like this between the Department of Justice and a judge?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I cannot believe, Jake. The way the Justice Department is speaking to this judge, I cannot believe how much of this the judge has taken. If I had taken this approach with any of the federal judges I appeared in front of in the Southern District in New York, I would have been disemboweled figuratively. First of all, the judge says, I want specifics from you. And this isn't just any lawyers, by the way, this is the Justice Department.
Specifics, who was on the flight? Where was it at this time? Where was it at that time?
TAPPER: Reasonable questions.
HONIG: Reasonable questions. And by the way, it's not optional. DOJ comes back and says, well, Judge, you don't need all that. We're just telling you that everything's OK. Judge then gives him another chance and says, I want you by noon, what's now yesterday.
I want -- no, I want the details I want. And again, DOJ says no, Judge, we don't think we need to give you that. You have all that you need to rule. I cannot believe this judge is playing this game out further and even giving them yet again till tomorrow to decide whether they want to comply. When a judge tells you something, if you're a lawyer, again, especially if you're a DOJ, it's not optional, it's not negotiable. I'm stunned the judge has let it get this far.
TAPPER: Judge Cordell, what are the options for this judge if the Justice Department still chooses to not hand over this information by noon tomorrow?
LADORIS HAZZARD CORDELL, RETIRED CALIFORNIA SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE: Well, Jake, the only options are contempt. And there's two types of contempt. There's criminal contempt and then there's civil. And criminal contempt. Basically, a person has to be found beyond reasonable doubt to a violated court order, and then the person goes to jail, and it's up to 10 days for each count.
Then there's civil contempt. So the court could decide that this person or this agency is in contempt of the court and basically say to the Homeland Security secretary, for example, if they're a part of this, OK, you're going to sit in jail and you're going to sit in jail until you comply with this order. So basically, with civil contempt, the person who's found in contempt holds the key to the jail. All they have to do is comply. That means round up all of those people that were on the planes, bring them back, and answer all of the questions the judge has.
So that's about it. And it's not a criminal convictions. It's about purging the contempt. A civil contempt can be purged if you just do the right thing and abide by the rule of law.
Jake, let me add just one last thing. Every law student, every graduate of law school learns about Marbury versus Madison. This is a Supreme Court case decided in 1803. And the chief justice then, John Marshall, said it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Marbury v. Madison gives the right to the courts to interpret the Constitution and say what the law is.
And so every lawyer in the Trump administration, starting with Pam Bondi, in my view, ought to be disbarred. They know this rule. They know exactly what judicial review is and the province of the courts. And it is outrageous that they are waging this war on the judiciary.
TAPPER: I want you to take a listen, Judge Cordell, to former Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, who was appointed by Bill Clinton. He was asked about Trump's fight with judges. Here's what he said to Wolf Blitzer. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Are we nearing a constitutional crisis right now?
STEPHEN BREYER, RETIRED SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: No one really knows. No one really knows. People have different views on that. And the best thing I think, for the judges is you follow the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[17:10:07]
TAPPER: What do you think, Judge?
CORDELL: Oh, I disagree. We are in a constitutional crisis right now. Absolutely. This is a test of whether or not these judicial orders are going to be followed by this administration. And if they are not, what's the recourse?
I mean, I've mentioned contempt, but there are also things that the administration can do. They can direct the marshals. No, you're not going to arrest anybody to put them in jail for contempt. So bottom line, I think, you know, the only remedy we get to this is just going to be public outrage.
Public outrage at this undermining of the judiciary and the war in the judiciary. We are in a constitutional crisis right now.
TAPPER: So, Elie, last night, President Trump was asked about Chief Justice Roberts' statement where he warned the Trump administration and the GOP about their rhetoric against judges. A reminder that Roberts issued this statement just hours after President Trump called for the judge to be impeached. Here's Trump's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, he didn't mention my name in the statement. I just saw it quickly. He didn't mention my name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: But many people have called for his impeachment, the impeachment of this judge. We had a judge -- I would call him a rogue judge. You can call him whatever you want. I know nothing about him.
That's not for a local judge to be making that determination. And I thought it was terrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Seems to be kind of ignoring Chief Justice Roberts' point (ph).
HONIG: Yes. I don't think anyone first of all believes that it's just coincidence that in the same day there was all this talk of impeachment, Chief Justice Roberts comes out and says, impeachment is not what we do here. Chief Justice Roberts is very careful about when he speaks. I think he even understands that to speak at all is in itself inherently fraught. He has spoken three times in his 20 years as chief justice, twice now relating to Donald Trump and one relating to Chuck Schumer.
So I think when the chief justice speaks, it's worth listening, it's worth taking it seriously. He's sending us an important message.
TAPPER: All right, Elie Honig and Judge Cordell, thanks to both of you.
Coming up, here are some of the heat on members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, as they face frustrated voters at home. Plus, I'm going to speak with the top attorney at the FDA who resigned after just days on the job. Why she's calling it quits under the new Trump administration, even though she's a conservative Republican? And is there any truth to seed oils harming your health. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is looking into that question and he'll join me ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:16:32] TAPPER: Our world lead now. President Trump says he had a, quote, "very good phone call" with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy today. Their first known conversation since that explosive oval office meeting 19 days ago. Zelenskyy says the call was, quote, "positive" and mentioned he's looking forward to speaking about a key sticking point, security guarantees in future meetings.
The hour long Trump-Zelenskyy call comes one day after Trump spoke with Russian leader Vladimir Putin for two hours, which resulted in Putin agreeing to stop striking certain targets in Ukraine, though he stopped short of a full ceasefire. This morning. Trump's national security adviser, former Congressman Mike Waltz, denied the Kremlin's claim that the future of U.S. military aid to Ukraine came up in the Putin-Trump phone call.
Meanwhile, Zelenskyy accused Russia of immediately violating the agreement Putin made with Trump. Zelenskyy says Russia's military launched dozens of drones overnight, some hitting residential areas of Ukraine. Others hit hospitals in northern Ukraine and an electrical system powering railroads in central Ukraine, according to officials there.
In a more positive sign of cooperation today, Russia and Ukraine swapped 175 prisoners each in what Zelenskyy says is, quote, "one of the largest exchanges of the war." An exchange agreed to before Trump and Putin's two hour call. CNN's Clarissa Ward saw prisoners of war reuniting with their families and brings us this remarkable report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're waiting now here with family members of the 175 Ukrainian prisoners of war who have just crossed over the border back into Ukraine, some of them after three years in captivity in Russia. The images that we've been seeing of that moment as they sprint through the border crossing, grabbing the Ukrainian flag and now on their way back to be reunited with loved ones.
Who's the cake for?
ALIONA (PH): Yes.
WARD (voice-over): I'm waiting for my husband who has been in captivity for almost three years and yesterday was his birthday, Aliona (ph) tells us. It's like splashes of fireworks and emotions. My heart is beating out of my chest.
WARD: Take a look now, the bus door is just opening and people rushing forward desperately hoping to get a glimpse of their loved ones.
People calling out the names of loved ones as they try to find their family members amid the 175 Ukrainian prisoners of war who are getting off of these buses. Some of them seem to have some injuries. Others look like they're in good shape. So clearly, days.
You can see Alena has found her husband, Andre (ph). She gave him a huge, huge hug and presented him with that birthday cake that she's waited three years to give.
It's just incredible to see how much emotion there is in this crowd. Everywhere you walk, people are hugging, they're crying, they're laughing. And just the sense of relief some of these men held for three years.
[17:20:01]
This man is talking to, I think, his wife for the first time. You can see just how emotional the incredible toll of what these men have been through.
Can I ask you guys, how does it feel to be back home in Ukraine?
YEVHEN (PH): Amazing.
WARD: Amazing.
YEVHEN: Yes. Beautiful. Magnificent. Great. Super.
WARD: How long have you been dreaming about this moment?
YEVHEN: Three years.
WARD: Can I ask, you look thin, how were the conditions in the prison where you were held?
WARD (voice-over): Look, if I tell the truth, it'll affect the guys who are still there, Yevhen (ph) tells us. But I would say in the 21st century, people should be treated better than us.
WARD: We don't know exactly how many Ukrainian prisoners of war there are in Russia. The estimates are around 8,000 or even more. I asked President Zelenskyy a question at a virtual press conference yesterday. I said, what could President Putin say or do that would give you more optimism about this peace process? And he said to return all the prisoners of war.
Clarissa Ward, CNN, Chernihiv, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: And our thanks to Clarissa Ward for that report from Ukraine.
We're going to come back with some of the biggest issues frustrating voters here in the U.S. Those voters are making sure their elected leaders hear all about it at Town Hall. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:26:01]
TAPPER: In our politics lead, from coast to coast, Americans are expressing outrage at raucous town halls held by Republican and Democratic members of Congress. Anger over cuts to the government, over tariffs, President Trump's foreign policy. For Democratic voters, they're mad about a lot of things, including the direction of their own party. CNN's Brian Todd went to one of those town halls to see the frustration firsthand.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to see hell now.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Democratic Congressman Glenn Ivey got a bracing reminder that these days in a town hall, even a friendly crowd can turn on you quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not interested in hearing that you are in the minority. We know that. We want you to show some of the backbone and strategic brilliance that Mitch McConnell would have in the minority.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want you to show fight and you are not fighting.
TODD (voice-over): I asked Ivey about the accusation that he and other Democrats aren't fighting hard enough.
REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): We got to fight to win. And you know, I don't know that expressing anger necessarily is the way to do that per se, especially if you're trying to win over persuadable voters.
TODD (voice-over): That angry brush back in Forestville, Maryland, one of many similar scenes playing out in town halls across the country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can go F themselves is how I feel about it.
TODD (voice-over): In New York state where Democratic Congressman Paul Tonko got an earful over President Trump's deportations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have people being transferred, El Salvadorian gulags without due process of law. Have we reached the lead (ph) line, sir? Have we reached the red line?
HANS NICHOLS, CO-AUTHOR, AXIOS HILL LEADERS: There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of stray voltage. And some of that stray voltage is getting released at these town halls.
TODD (voice-over): And not just with Democrats. At a Republican town hall in Nebraska, some pent up outrage pops.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you stand up for?
TODD (voice-over): In North Carolina, Republican Congressman Chuck Edwards hears it over President Trump's global ambitions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you support the annexation of Canada and or Greenland? And this is a yes or no question. I don't want you to -- I don't want you to wander off into the woods. I don't want to hear about your latest week in your office.
TODD (voice-over): In Arizona, Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego is berated by a constituent about his party's leadership.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to go back and talk with Senate Democrats and get a new leader.
TODD (voice-over): That's a common complaint. A sentiment that Democrats were sold out by Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who recently voted in favor of the Republican led spending bill. Schumer himself hasn't held any recent town halls and says he has rescheduled some book tour events over security concerns so voters simply vent.
TODD: Hasn't he become a lightning rod for the idea that the Democrats aren't fighting hard enough?
NICHOLS: Oh, sure, he's absolutely a lightning rod for that. That's like he feels that every day. But Chuck Schumer is in power. At least he's in charge of his caucus right now.
TODD (voice-over): Still, Glenn Ivey felt significant pressure regarding Schumer.
IVEY: He's done a lot of great things. But I'm afraid that it may be time for the Senate Democrats to pick new leadership as we move forward.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: Brian Todd joins us now with our panel. So, Brian, you've been to a few of these town halls. You've noticed how quickly the tone can change.
TODD: Jake, the dynamic is really striking. This event last night with Congressman Ivey was a very friendly crowd, probably 98 percent Democrat. It takes one person to just come up and express a little bit of anger over something and the entire crowd gets riled up. We saw that happen last night. It was a very friendly gathering.
One or two people get up and express even the mildest form of anger or frustration, the rest of them just get riled up. And he was there for an hour and a half dealing with some very angry people because of that.
TAPPER: Yes, we saw it in your piece. What might it take to tamp down some of the anger among these voters?
TODD: Well, Hans Nichols, the analyst we spoke to, says he doesn't think it can tamp down anytime soon. It's not like you can kind of have voters take a timeout from this stuff. He says it's going to take probably some big national crisis to distract everyone and get away from everything that DOGE is doing and all the frustrations over that.
TAPPER: So does that mean lawmakers are hoping for a big national crisis --
TODD: It might be. Yes.
TAPPER: -- somewhere? So Neera Tanden and Matt Gorman, you both worked on Capitol Hill. You specifically work for the NRCC. Did you experience anything like this?
[17:30:03]
MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Oh yes, I mean I was there both in the 14th cycle, which is a little bit more favorable to us, and then the 2018 cycle when we ended up losing the House during the first presidency of Donald Trump. And we had town hall issues too, and that was a little different.
It was far more focused on healthcare, but again in a very similar thing, it was a lot of these folks, individual -- indivisible, far- left groups kind of coming into these things. And I think what we ended up saying is like, look, if this is not going to be productive for you, if you're going to simply have a spectacle, go and do Facebook Lives or telethon halls. That way it's a lot safer physically for you, but also you're not giving these far-left groups that viral moment, and I wouldn't be surprised if you see Democrats or Republicans do the same thing.
TAPPER: So Neera, I'm old enough to remember when there were a lot of angry town halls against Democrats in 2010, after Obama started working on Obamacare, and this -- that was the rise of the Tea Party. And we heard a lot of the same complaints, oh, these are all fake, these aren't -- these aren't real people, these aren't in front of my district, it's activists, it's funded by so-and-so rich person, in this case they say Soros, but back then it was the Koch brothers. How would you handle this if you're advising a member of Congress?
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT & CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: I think that if Republicans are telling themselves that indivisible has this giant footprint in places like Wyoming and Nebraska --
TAPPER: That's the Democratic crap that you're talking about. Yes.
TANDEN: -- indivisible that you just mentioned. You know, I think they're basically, they should -- they should recognize that they are whispering into the wind and looking at their own -- their own Tea Party. And I think the truth of all this is that it's really actually hard to organize people, you know, we here -- there are Republicans going into town halls in places like Missouri, in places like Alabama, in places where there are just not that many Democrats who are complaining about cuts to veterans, cuts to Social Security. And I think if people want to tell themselves that this is all just manufactured, then you might be very surprised on Election Day.
TAPPER: He was -- he wasn't saying that. That was quote. You know you weren't saying that.
GORMAN: Yes, yes.
TAPPER: I was saying that I've heard that complaint. Just to --
GORMAN: Oh, yes, yes.
TANDEN: No, no, no, no, but Matt said, you know, it seems like it's funded by indivisible. And my point is --
GORMAN: They've take -- taken credit for it. They've taken credit for it. Ro Khanna said he's going to go into these town halls like we saw last night, a Democratic town hall.
TODD: Indivisible was there last night.
GORMAN: Exactly.
TAPPER: They were. OK.
GORMAN: And again, Democrats, like, are seeing it too.
TAPPER: But that doesn't mean that all of the anger is fake.
GORMAN: No. I -- I -- I never --
TAPPER: And you're not saying that, right?
GORMAN: The -- the -- the anger is real. The people are real. But also the idea that these are median voters chanting Donald Trump is a fascist, I think it's a little bit tougher to say.
TAPPER: But Neera, I want to get your reaction to this woman in Spokane, Washington at her local town hall with freshman Republican Congressman Michael -- Michael Baumgartner. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been in Spokane for 39 years from New Jersey. I've never been involved in politics before, but this is getting really scary. Why is he not being impeached right now?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So that does not sound like a swing voter.
TANDEN: Yes, I guess, look, I think -- I -- I think we should all be clear that Democrats in -- in the country are scared right now.
TAPPER: Yes.
TANDEN: They're scared about what Trump is doing. And really, they're scared about the fact that he's breaking through every guardrail. I mean, you have the chief justice of the United States issuing a statement against the President to say, please do not threaten judges. That is an extraordinary moment in our country.
And so, of course, Democrats are concerned about that. I don't think it's just Democrats. You see, independents who are also very concerned. They're -- they're concerned about DOGE cuts. And I think the real problem here is that we don't have enough avenues to channel it. And really, unfortunately, Republicans who in the past would have voted against the ACA repeal.
TAPPER: The Obamacare. Yes. TANDEN: We just -- we just don't have the Trump effort to get rid of the ACA. You don't see any Republicans who are willing to offer any guardrails, which is even scarier to people. And that's why I think people are legitimately scared and angry and rightly going into their town halls.
TAPPER: What do you think? I mean, just looking at it --
GORMAN: Yes.
TAPPER: -- it seems like there's a lot of anger among the Democratic base, which usually --
GORMAN: Yes.
TAPPER: -- means trouble for Republicans come election day and vice versa.
GORMAN: I will say this. Doing or not doing town halls will not directly impact the election. But what it will say is, obviously, the anger on the left is real. All the more important that I think the Republicans and the NRCC, and they -- they need to make sure they're getting the Trump voters out, right? Well, we've seen a flip.
And back in 2014, Republicans had the advantage with the not lower propensity voters would -- that would come out every single national election. Democrats didn't. That's flipping the Trump era. We need to get Trump voters out that came out in '24 and '26.
[17:34:40]
TAPPER: All right. Thanks to our panel. The pressure put on a conservative Republican attorney at the Food and Drug Administration that led her to quit. But where did that pressure come from? She'll join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, the top attorney for the Food and Drug Administration resigning after only three days, Hilary Perkins was a career official who has argued cases for both the Trump and Biden administrations and was selected by Trump's FDA commissioner nominee to take on the chief counsel role. But her argument on behalf of the abortion pill, Mifepristone, for the Biden administration led to a crusade of online attacks spearheaded by a certain U.S. Senator and Hilary Perkins joins me now. Thank you so much for joining us, Hilary. I appreciate it. So I'm not going to leave anybody in suspense any longer.
It was Senator Josh Hawley from Missouri who sparked this campaign against you in the new role he wrote on X or Twitter. It turns out this Biden lawyer has argued for Biden's outrageous pro-abortion rules. Now we should know you began at the Justice Department under President Trump. What was your reaction when you saw this post describing you as a Biden lawyer? My impression is that you're actually personally pretty conservative. [17:40:18]
HILARY PERKINS, FORMER FDA CHIEF COUNSEL: Yes. And -- and -- and thank you for having me, Jake. I -- I really appreciate it and appreciate being on here today.
Yes, when I saw that -- that phrase, you know, the Biden abortion attorney, you know, it was -- it was -- it was shocking really, to be honest. I mean, I'm -- I'm not a Biden abortion attorney. I mean, and -- and to be clear, I have many friends that have different political views than me.
TAPPER: But it's not accurate to describe you as a Biden attorney?
PERKINS: But it's not -- it's not accurate to describe me. And so that was really the -- the problem that I had is that, you know, he -- he started going on these rants on X calling me a Biden abortion attorney saying that I was trying to -- to, you know, argue in favor of the availability of the Mifepristone pill. And that's not at all -- that's not at all true.
I mean, I -- I'm -- I'm a conservative, I'm pro-life. I actually support, you know, President Trump. President Trump appointed me for this role, as FDA chief counsel. You know, I -- it -- it -- it just was really shocking for him to start calling me that. He -- he seems to really misunderstand what a DOJ career attorney actually is and what -- and what it does.
TAPPER: Right. You do what you're told to do as a -- as a career lawyer.
PERKINS: As a career lawyer, I was not in a policy-making role. I was not making any of the policy. I was not setting or directing policy. I was simply defending the administration's policies consistent with my oath as a career DOJ attorney. And -- and -- and that was the case, even if I disagreed with the policy, I -- that was my oath. I was required to do it. And in fact, that is what Attorney General Pam Bondi has recently reaffirmed to the Justice Department.
TAPPER: So we should note that the case that Senator Hawley is referencing was a case during the Biden years regarding the abortion pill, Mifepristone. Now, Senator Hawley's wife was the attorney for the other side, arguing against the legality of Mifepristone. That seems to me like the kind of thing that Senator Hawley might have disclosed when he made this post. What do you think?
PERKINS: I don't really know if that had anything to do with his attacks on me. I -- I don't know. You would have to ask him. But what I do know is that that case that he was citing, it went all the way up to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled in the government's favor nine-zero.
TAPPER: So you beat his wife.
PERKINS: Correct. I mean, yes, at the end of the day, the -- the Supreme Court ruled in our favor and -- and -- and that Supreme Court, every pro-life justice agreed with my position, agreed with the government's position. And -- and -- and -- and that was the same Supreme Court that overturned Roe.
TAPPER: What do you -- what do you make of all this? Because obviously the Trump administration needs to have competent attorneys, needs to have, people who know how the Justice Department functions. It can't all just be bomb throwers. They need to achieve what they want to achieve. And I would think somebody like you, who is personally conservative, but also professionally, a Justice Department attorney would be exactly the kind of person they would want.
PERKINS: Exactly. And -- and that's what's so shocking about this. I -- I -- I think that -- that career civil servants just doing their jobs and following their oath to defend the administration's policies, that is something that we should be commending them for.
TAPPER: At the very least, I would think that as a United States senator would reach out and say, I have concerns about the position you argued. Let's talk about this as opposed to just writing something on X. But it does seem like we're in this period now where U.S. senators think trolling people and acting like that is what they're supposed to be doing instead of being legislators.
PERKINS: Right. Exactly. He should be happy that I was put in this position. He should want me in this position. I did want to -- want to talk to him and tell -- tell him who I was but he refused. And I think --
TAPPER: So you reached out to him and he wouldn't meet with you?
PERKINS: Correct. He's -- he's -- he's refused to meet with me. But -- but I, you know, again, at the end of the day, I think that if we were to meet, we could clear the air because --
TAPPER: Yes.
PERKINS: -- you know, I think we do agree on a lot of things here. And I think the only -- only area where we disagree is about, you know, whether career DOJ attorneys have to resign when they, you know, disagree with an admin -- administration's policies. And that can't be the -- that can't be the case. It can't be that every time a new administration comes in, that all the DOJ attorneys that disagree with those new policies have to -- have to resign.
TAPPER: No, that's not what it's supposed to be every -- every persons.
PERKINS: The DOJ seems to function.
TAPPER: Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.
PERKINS: Thanks so much. I appreciate it, Jake.
TAPPER: We reached out to Senator Hawley's office to invite him to come on the show, to respond to the story, to tell us what's going on. We have yet to hear back. [17:44:51]
Coming up, vegetable oil, avocado oil, olive oil, the choices seem endless. Are any better for your health than others? Paging Dr. Sanjay Gupta, that's next.
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TAPPER: In our Health Lead, the best way to prepare your food once again is up for debate, especially after Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. visited a steak and shake. In our healthy, the best way to prepare your food once again is up for debate, especially after Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. visited a Steak n Shake last week alongside a "Fox News" host to tout the restaurant's new fries cooked in beef tallow.
[17:50:16]
Now, your grocery store shelves are likely stocked with other options for food -- food preparation, such as margarine or butter, seed oils such as sunflower or soybean. What's the healthiest one for you? Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now. Sanjay, now we're -- we're essentially talking about animal fats versus plant- based oils.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.
TAPPER: What's the science say about this?
GUPTA: So, you know, when it comes to these seed oils specifically, so there's plant-based oils, seed oils fall under that category, but you also have avocado oil and olive oil and things like that. All that's a plant-based oils. But these seed oils, there -- there's no question. There's a lot of processing that goes on. They can be pro- inflammatory. And sometimes when cooked at high temperatures, they may give off other compounds as well. So that's been the concern.
But Jake, I -- I think the history is important here. You know, middle of last century, there arose a large concern about saturated fats, animal fats. They were linked to higher cholesterol, strong associations with heart disease. And that's what sort of prompted the move away from that. If you look over the last several decades and say, OK, let's look at people who are using predominantly animal fats versus plant fats and see what's the mortality like in those people who use animal fats.
You find that it's about 15 percent higher, for example, mortality risk and 16 percent lower if you're using plant-based oils. So yes, there's concerns about the processing of these plant-based oils, but they came about for a reason. And the reason was the -- the strong association with heart disease. And that hasn't changed, Jake.
TAPPER: Is there any validity to the claims that seed oils are -- are harming our health? Or is there -- can you distinguish are some seed oils worse or better than others? GUPTA: Yes. I -- I think there are some that are -- that are better than others. There's the hateful eight. I don't know if you've -- you've heard this term, Jake, but the hateful eight seed oils. They're there on the screen. Some of these are going to be better than others. Canola, for example, has some of the lowest unsaturated fats.
So it's going to be better in terms of what we were just talking about. The concern really is -- is a couple of things. When you look at these -- these what are called fatty acids, you have omega-3 fatty acids, you have omega-6 fatty acids. You need both. But more importantly, you need a good ratio of them. When it comes to omega-6, for example, we've seen a significant increase in the amount of omega- 6 fatty acids in our diet.
And a lot of that comes from these oils. There's this imbalance. That's one of the concerns. The processing that I was just talking about, that multi-step production process, that could be of concern. And then, you know, what's called a smoke point or -- or the sort of the -- the cooking temperature of these oils. Some of them can withstand those temperatures better than others. When they start to burn, they may degrade and decompose into things that could potentially be harmful, Jake.
TAPPER: Switching gears. Yesterday, we saw that incredible splashdown landing of astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams after they spent almost 10 months in space. Can you tell us how they're going to go about rehabilitating their bodies after all that time in zero gravity?
GUPTA: That -- that was incredible, by the way, just -- just to watch that and -- and the dolphins.
TAPPER: The dolphins were unbelievable.
GUPTA: Welcome back, right? There -- there -- there's a few things. I mean, gravity is really important to how the body continuously reorients itself, what it does to your muscles and to the bones. And I was watching all your programming, a lot of the astronauts talking about that. But to give a little bit of context to build on that, there's a reduction in bone density and muscle mass that can occur pretty quickly.
Within a couple of weeks, Jake, of being in a microgravity environment, you can lose about a third of your muscle fiber size, just two weeks. Now, it's not, you know, linear after that. You don't continue to lose that much. But it happens very quickly. And your bones become more brittle as well. So creating loads on the body, even while they're on the International Space Station, they would weigh themselves down with these bungee belts and things like that when they're on the treadmill to sort of create a load on the body.
They're going to need to obviously do things like that back on Earth. There's also these -- these body fluid shifts that I heard folks talking about yesterday in your program. It's kind of like being in an extended handstand. Think about just being in an extended handstand for a long period of time. All the -- the fluids sort of shift. Doing things like wearing compression garments, taking salt tablets, those can make a big difference.
And the vestibular system, and I know you've dealt with this, vestibular neuritis, it can be maddening for people. That's -- that's something that they -- they do vestibular training as well to try and get people accustomed to Earth again. It can take some time. Scott Kelly said it took six months. You know, he'd been up there for a year.
TAPPER: Yes, I still haven't fully recovered from my vestibular neuritis. The -- the day I lost all sense of equilibrium, that was, I don't wish that upon anybody. Well, I guess maybe there are a couple of people I wish it upon.
[17:55:06]
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Good to see you.
TAPPER: Me too.
This just coming into CNN, the massive purge at the Pentagon. Here's some of the content that's being pulled down from the Defense Department websites. And what this may signal about the direction of the Trump administration.
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TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the White House continuing to lash out against federal judges who have ruled against President Trump, accusing them of being, quote, partisan activists who are trying to, quote, derail Trump's agenda. This as the judge who blocked the President's deportation flights or trying to is demanding more information by tomorrow at noon.
[18:00:08]
Plus, a significant --
