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The Lead with Jake Tapper

W.H.: Trump Allowed To Express Displeasure About Fed Chair; U.S. Stocks Close Higher Amid Volatility Over Trump's Tariffs; Hegseth Remains Defiant, Insists Fired Officials Leaked Information And Could Face Prosecution; The Cardinals Seen As Possible Successors To Pope Francis; "60 Minutes" Executive Producer Resigns, Cites Loss Of Independence In Wake Of Trump Lawsuit; Trump Admin Announces Plans To Phase Out Some Artificial Dyes From Foods And Drinks. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Three of whom are authors of the study, had a laser beam flashed into one of their pupils to stimulate cells in the retina. And a blue green color like this is what they reportedly saw. But researchers say that the true hue of olo can only be seen using their experimental laser setup. I guess I'll believe it when I see it, Jake Tapper.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Well, I've been -- I've been saying that for a long time. That's my -- that's my life motto, olo.

HUNT: Hey, you know.

TAPPER: Only live once. Kasie, appreciate it.

HUNT: Oh, you do indeed. Have a great show. "The Lead" starts now.

TAPPER: We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow. Yes.

[17:00:35]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Stock market's on track to have its worst April since the Great Depression. The Lead starts right now.

Behind closed doors, the president's treasury secretary says the United States-China trade war is, quote, unsustainable. What sources told CNN about Bessent's comments behind closed doors as we hear a new dire warning about the U.S. economy. Plus, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth on defense insisting the military plans he shared in a group chat with his wife, brother and attorney were not actually top secret or a big deal. He's also accusing a former top advisor of trying to smear his good name with the Pentagon leadership. In such chaos, are Hegseth's days numbered?

And Catholic cardinals now arriving in Rome for Pope Francis' funeral. Those details, plus a closer look at some of the names of the man who might be the next pope.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start in our money lead. Mixed Signals from the markets and financial institutions creating a state of confusion for the U.S. economy. Less than an hour ago, the market's closing up today, rebounding from yesterday's terrible day.

The Dow gained more than 1,000 points. Good news. The S&P 500, the Nasdaq both closing up more than 2 percent. But today's uptick comes after U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said behind closed doors that he sees the U.S.-China trade war -- trade war as unsustainable and that he expects the battle to deescalate. That announcement coming just hours after a major announcement from the International Monetary Fund, or IMF, that the U.S. will be hardest hit by Trump's tariffs and resulting trade war.

The IMF, which projected U.S. economy -- the U.S. economy to grow only 1.8 percent this year. That's down for their from their 2.7 percent estimate back in January. The IMF blaming Trump's April 2, so called Liberation Day as the reason that they jettisoned their prior projections. We should note the market is also in general rendering harsh judgments since April 2nd, Liberation Day. The Dow has tumbled more than 9 percent over the first three weeks of April, putting it on track to mark its worst April since the Great Depression.

The Dow falling 1,000 points or more. That's only happened 19 times in a day in modern history. And three of those times, three of those massive drops have happened since Liberation Day.

We should note that the Dow has also risen more than 1,000 points in a single day, 13 times in modern history. And those include April 9, which was the largest point gain of all time. And today, when The Dow rose 1,016 points. Today, the CEO of Goldman Sachs criticized Trump's trade policy for these wild swings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID SOLOMON, GOLDMAN SACHS CEO: I think I've been clear. We need a higher level -- we need a higher level of policy uncertainty. This level of uncertainty is not good. It's not healthy, and it's affecting investment, spending and planning. And that will have an effect on growth in the economy. And we will see that, you know, in my opinion, relatively quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's start today with CNN's Richard Quest.

And Richard, the market was up today more than a thousand points. Great news. But you know, we've also seen independently some pretty ominous signs about the state of the U.S. economy writ large.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: And today was a perfect day, Jake, to show the absolute battle that is going on within the economy and within economics. So you have the market rallying a thousand points, but the market will rally on any thin read of good news. This case, it was Scott Bessent saying that there would have to be a de-escalation of China-U.S. trade tensions, as you just said, because it was unsustainable.

The market took that as being a good sign, in a sense, help might be on the way. And then the IMF, the dose of reality because the tariffs are already in the economy. So the IMF says about the U.S. economy, it is to -- it's -- it is undergoing a major negative shock.

I don't know how many more people have to say that the economy is in trouble when you've got the CEOs of all the major banks, you've got the World Trade Organization, the IMF, just about Uncle Tom Cobley (ph), everybody is saying that the U.S. economy is in trouble, but the administration continues to say it's just a bit of transient or few transient problems. It's more than that and the evidence is there.

[17:05:02]

TAPPER: All right, Richard Quest, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

I now want to turn to CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House.

And Kaitlan, as I mentioned earlier, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said at an event today behind closed doors that he thinks the U.S. trade war with China is unsustainable. That's the word he used. What do we know?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, if it gives you any sense of how much investors are looking for any kind of good news. That comment from Scott Benson was not even on camera when the Treasury secretary said that. There was no media in the room. It was instead reporting that CNN has confirmed that he made those comments because they are, as Richard said there. And investors are looking for any kind of good news they can get out of this White House in terms of where this is going, whether or not there is any progress on a deal with China and what that looks like.

And when the White House was asked directly about those reported comments made by the Treasury secretary today, the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, did not address them directly what came from the Treasury secretary. And instead she pointed to comments that she said the president had made to her in the Oval Office and asked to share with reporters at the briefing about we're doing very well, quote, "in respect to a potential trade deal with China." But the key word there is potential because we, there has not been any direct conversation between President Trump and President Xi Jinping that we know of at this point. And obviously that's what people are looking to see if they are getting anywhere closer.

They've talked about other countries coming to the table. They've talked about a lot of meetings that the Treasury secretary and the Commerce secretary have been having. But in terms of major trade deals being announced on a pretty tight timeline, when you look at the grand scheme of things, that's still a big open question here at the White House.

TAPPER: And the White House was also defending todays Trump's threats to the chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, calling him a loser, and on and on. What -- what is the White House saying?

COLLINS: Yes, he called him a major loser. He said that he doesn't believe he knows what he's talking about when it comes to interest rates. Obviously, the president has been frustrated that the Federal Reserve chair has declined to get involved for now, in part citing the chaotic nature of the tariffs being implemented, being removed. And the press secretary was asked today about an assertion from one of the president's top economic advisers, Kevin Hassett, who has before previously stressed the importance of the independence of the Federal Reserve.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think the president has made his position on the Fed and on Powell quite clear. The president believes that they have been making moves and taking action in the name of politics, rather in the name of what's right for the American economy. The president has the right to express his displeasure with the Fed and he has the right to say he believes interest rates should be lower.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, there have been real questions, of course, Jake, about whether or not that means the president wants to fire or remove Jay Powell from his term before it ends. He still has over another year left on the job after he initially first appointed him to be the Federal Reserve chair. We do know people here at the White House and outside allies of Trump's have warned him not to fire him, not even necessarily because of the questions of the legality of it, which the Fed chair people have said privately that he would fight it if they tried to remove him, but just the simple effect it would have on the stock markets and what it would do to -- to confidence that, as you noted, is already down right now.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. Appreciate it. And Kaitlan, of course, will be back on CNN with more in her show, "The Source with Kaitlan Collins." That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern only here on CNN.

Let's talk about this all. With us, CNN Political Commentator and Democratic Strategist Karen Finney, Republican Strategist Erin Maguire and former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, whom President Trump fired, Rohit Chopra.

Rohit, let me start with you. What we just heard from CNN's Kaitlan Collins about the White House trying to defend Trump's remarks attacking Jerome Powell. I guess the major loser stuff doesn't matter as much as his criticism of him, of Powell not lowering interest rates. Do you see -- how do you see this? Do you think this is dangerous if he were to fire him?

What do you think?

ROHIT CHOPRA, FORMER CFPB DIRECTOR: Well, lots of people are wondering, can he fire him? Is it legal? I think we should be asking why does he want to fire him. Why is he saying all this? Maybe he wants him to just be a scapegoat for this tariff gambit that might be exploding in their faces.

You know, we have all sorts of people, economists, global IMF, saying the economy is shrinking. I'm just more worried about what's happening here at home. More people are struggling on their credit cards. More people are seeing their credit scores go down. The prices for mortgages may tick up for people, and that's just going to bite people very, very hard.

TAPPER: Erin, what do you think? I've heard this argument before that the targeting of Powell is an attempt to blame Powell for what the tariffs are doing, not for Powell refusing to lower interest rates. What's your take?

ERIN MAGUIRE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think we need to reframe this a bit. Pressure on a Fed chair is not uncommon by presidents. You can go back in history and look at multiple presidents who put extreme pressure on Fed chairs to try and lower interest rates. Just particularly, LBJ brought his Fed chair out to his ranch in Texas and stripped him down to try to get interest rates lower. H.W. Bush blamed his Fed chair for interest rates not coming down and ultimately the loss of his election. So this is not something that is catastrophic or unseen in this country.

[17:10:09]

But what this is saying right now, and when you've seen these markets move just based off a closed door word by Scott Bessent, I think Kaitlan's right. Investors are looking for clarity here. And if we are seeing the crown jewel of what Trump wants to be the tariff plan and the trade policy, China coming together, even appearing to do that that's when this could go from being what appears to be a problem to really being a politically powerful thing for the president as these markets start to move in his favor. People want that certainty. And if they're getting the glimmer of it as investors, that's going to help move the economy back where Trump wants it.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think the problem is that they're not getting the certainty from the President. The best thing for the market today was that Trump didn't say anything about the market today. We did hear this closed door. But we're also seeing polls show that people are losing confidence, not just the market and not just, you know, the corporations, people are starting to lose confidence in Trump's ability to run the economy, to bring inflation down, to make their lives better.

And look, I don't care who you are, if by the end of the summer we are still Democrat or Republican, if by the end of the summer, as you point out, costs are still high, inflation is still high, the president will pay a price and people will continue to have doubts about his ability to run the economy. And that was the number one issue of the election.

MAGUIRE: And I think that's the point we're looking at right now is the difference between this being a problem and this being a powerful stance for him. If the markets move this easily based off of Scott Bessent behind closed doors, that China deal comes together, that becomes the position of power. You bring those economic voters home.

FINNEY: But even if that deal --

MAGUIRE: Because that's what's spoking them right now.

FINNEY: But Erin, even if that deal comes together, we're not going to make back how much we've already lost this year.

MAGUIRE: You don't know that.

FINNEY: Oh, I sure do.

CHOPRA: The damages done you in many ways --

MAGUIRE: You can make -- in fact this is a strong market --

CHOPRA: We have -- we have people, major investors, global capital allocators are saying, what on earth is happening in America? And I think that we should always be thinking about how that is affecting people here. And that is not going to do anything to lower prices. That is not going to create a growing economy. And I hear the next bill that is being signed into law is a hike of overdraft fees. So there is a big disconnect between what the talk is and what the (inaudible) is.

TAPPER: Let me ask you about the bond markets because obviously that -- that's concerning. Even in the past when there's been instability in the economy, the idea that you could still invest in U.S. Treasury bills was always pretty strong. Wall Street seems to be sending a message that it is not the case anymore.

CHOPRA: That's right. There has been a shift away from dollar assets. In other words, usually people would buy up lots of treasury bonds. Now it seems many are dumping them. And the effect for people here, for families here, your mortgage, many other loans are tied to those bond rates. Small businesses borrow. It's all tied to that. And this is essentially a big hike for anyone who wants to borrow to start something.

TAPPER: If things don't go the way that you're hoping that they will, that we're all hoping they will --

MAGUIRE: Yes.

TAPPER: -- how concerned are you about prices going up? Because obviously tariffs do tend to create higher prices for people. They're a tax hike. They're a hidden tax hike.

MAGUIRE: So I think this is the difference between where Republicans see this and where Democrats see this. In the previous administration under Joe Biden, when costs were going up, the White House was lying to the American people about what's going on. Inflation is transitory. Things are fine. Don't believe your lion eyes.

At least Trump is telling you this is going to be painful on the front end. That's where Republicans are on this. It's a short term pain for the long term game. That's their strategy. It's a risky one and it's a bold one.

But if this economic shift happens the way the Trump team wants it, that's going to be a boon going into midterms, which historically would not be good for the Republicans Party.

FINNEY: Which I think Democrats can actually exploit that because I don't think it's going to turn around fast enough. And I think they can go on office --

MAGUIRE: But Democrats are chasing --

FINNEY: -- with their own Democratic message.

MAGUIRE: -- Trump everywhere. They're not going --

CHOPRA: Well, the thing that will make it a game over is if we hit a deep recession or a financial crisis. I'm not projecting it. But that will fundamentally change everything if unemployment starts rising, inflation --

TAPPER: Erin's point though, on Democrats chasing every Trump squirrel is a salient one.

FINNEY: That's what I'm trying to tell me.

TAPPER: I know you -- I know you agree with it. I like to end it with agreement. Thanks one and all.

Coming up next, why a source says that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth this morning engaged in selective truth sharing after sending military information in a group chat with his wife, brother and lawyer and trying to dismiss concerns. And the brand new plan just announced to phase out artificial dyes from the U.S. food supply.

[17:14:40]

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: The Defense secretary on defense. We're back with our politics lead. And Pete Hegseth today, the secretary of Defense, continuing to mislead the nation about clear evidence that he shared sensitive, possibly classified pending military strike plans on Signal group chats, which in one case included a journalist accidentally and in another second case included his wife and his brother and his personal attorney on purpose.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: What was shared over Signal then and now, however you characterize it, was informal, unclassified coordinations for media coordination and other things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, this is interesting. This was -- that was from this morning on Fox, informed sources tell CNN that calling that chat informal, unclassified coordination for meeting -- media coordination and other things, that's mostly an accurate description of that second Signal chat until Pete Hegseth then shared that sensitive information about the pending attack on the Houthis, which was similar, if not identical to what he sent in the other Signal chat that included accidentally journalist Jeffrey Goldberg.

[17:20:06]

Now, Hegseth, these sources tell CNN, is thus engaging in selective truth sharing to hide the seriousness of what he did. A source with direct knowledge of this second Signal chat with his wife, brother and lawyer tells CNN that he thought Hegseth's comment this morning -- comments this morning were, quote, "an eyebrow raising attempt to mislead," unquote, and, quote, "shocking obfuscation," unquote. This source said that the chat had indeed previously been largely about Hegseth's pending appearances on "Fox and Friends" or comments he might make at a public event, quote, "Until he started sharing information that is almost definitely classified and certainly doesn't belong out of a skiff." A skiff is a place for sensitive information.

Let's bring in CNN's Natasha Bertrand, who, along with myself, was part of the reporting team on the second Signal chat.

Natasha, now, Hegseth says that this leak investigation that supposedly is the reason behind these three people, these three senior aides being fired, is ongoing and that all of this, all of these stories are about people trying to get at President Trump and his agenda. The White House continues to publicly say the president stands with Hegseth. What are your sources telling you?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There is a ton of confusion inside the Pentagon right now, to say the least, because these are Hegseth guys. I mean, Dan Caldwell and Darin Selnick, these are two people that have been extremely close to him for over a decade. They worked with him at a veteran's organization. They were brought in by Secretary Hegseth.

And so the idea now that he has essentially thrown them under the bus after a leak investigation that apparently is not even concluded yet, according to what Secretary Hegseth said this morning, has really prompted some alarm among DoD officials, especially because there was already a lot of tension and suspicion between the civilian officials at the Pentagon and the military officials, particularly those that are in Hegseth's kind of inner circle, because if even the people who have been so loyal and so close to Pete Hegseth for so long are not safe here, then what kind of adoration and what kind of, you know, loyalty do you have to show --

TAPPER: Yes.

BERTRAND: -- to the Secretary of Defense to avoid being treated this way?

TAPPER: One of those officials who was fired, who worked with Hegseth for a long time, Dan Caldwell, went on Tucker Carlson's -- Tucker Carlson's show on Monday and insisted he did not leak any classified information. He was not asked to take a polygraph test. He's not even been told what he's being investigated for. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, "THE TUCKER CARLSON SHOW" HOST: Do you Know what you've been accused of?

DAN CALDWELL, FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL: No, I don't. Sitting here right now, myself and Darin Selnick and Colin Carroll, the other two individuals that were escorted out of the Pentagon initially placed on leave and then fired on Friday, we have not been told as of this recording, one, is there -- what we were being investigated for? Two, is there still an investigation? And three, was there even a real investigation? Because there's a lot of evidence that there -- there is not a real investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I know a lot of serious people who do not think there's a real investigation into these three. How are -- how are the -- how is this claim from Hegseth and others and these attacks on these guys from Hegseth allies, how's that playing, among others at the Pentagon?

BERTRAND: Well, look, I think that based on our reporting, what we're able to say is that Pete Hegseth has been extremely paranoid about leaks dating back probably to the middle of March when several stories began leaking in NBC, in the "New York Times" and elsewhere about military planning, particularly when it came to the Panama Canal, the Middle East, and of course, the infamous meeting that Elon Musk had at the Pentagon. And so he has been on a rampage, according to our sources, trying to kind of find who might be disclosing this information. And what we are told is that because of that, he did order this leak probe, but he essentially has become so suspicious of everyone around him that his inner circle has dramatically shrunk over the last several weeks to the point where it's now about three people, including his wife and his lawyer. And so, while there is a sense here that he may be at this point trying to find a scapegoat, and also, of course, that he is now under investigation by the IG, the inspector general of the Defense Department, for his use of Signal, and therefore might be trying to get people out who might be able to testify to that, there is also a recognition here that he is feeling very much pushed against a wall at this point, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Natasha Bertrand, our Pentagon correspondent, thanks so much.

A live look at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City. CNN's Anderson Cooper is there. And we're going to go to him next to learn what he's learning about Saturday's funeral for the late Pope Francis.

[17:24:51]

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our faith lead today, the Vatican announced that the funeral for Pope Francis will be held Saturday morning outside right there in St. Peter's Square. We're also learning about just some of the world leaders planning to be in attendance, including President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump, the U.K.'s Prince William, who will attend on behalf of his father King Charles, along with British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, French President Emmanuel Macron and Ukrainian President of Volodymyr Zelenskyy. CNN's Anderson Cooper is live for us in Rome.

And Anderson, the funeral set to take place in St. Peter's Square. What more can you tell us about the plans?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yes, it's going to take place at 10:00 a.m. local time here in Rome in Vatican City as well, which is about 4am Eastern time in the United States. It is, as you said, going to be here in St. Peter's Square. The majority of the funeral mass will take place here. The Pope will then be brought into St. Peter's Basilica. Unlike many other popes over the last hundred years, he will not be buried though, in Vatican City. He's actually going to be buried in Rome itself at another basilica, the Basilica Saint Maria Maggiore, which is closer to the Colosseum. I apologize for my bad Italian.

[17:30:14]

It's closer to the Colosseum than it is to the -- to the Vatican. The Pope had actually himself kind of amended the funeral service that's going to take place here on Saturday. He did that in the last year or so to try to kind of lessen the -- the pomp and circumstance.

He wanted the service itself to change to be more the service for a pastor or a father as opposed to the service for a -- a great man or an important person. And the way he's buried, he was very specific about as well. He wanted to be buried in the earth.

He doesn't want any adornments or fancy adornments on -- on his -- on any kind of marker that there may be. He wants a simple one-word inscription, Franciscus, the name Franciscus, and that's it.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And Anderson, tell us what you're learning about some of the very last messages from Pope Francis.

COOPER: Yes, yes, we got word today, and I love this, some of the -- the last words that Francis wrote about death it -- itself. And we can't know what was in his mind toward the -- the final days or hours of his life, but I just want to read you something he wrote in February that's going to be published in a book, in the prologue to a book by another cardinal just this week. These are the words that he wrote.

He said, death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something. He called it a -- a new beginning. He said, because it's a new beginning because we'll experience something that we have never fully experienced, eternity.

I don't know about you, Jake, but if I can face the end of my life with that sense of embarking on a new beginning, I will feel very lucky indeed. TAPPER: Well, he had faith, right, Anderson? I'm not sure if you and I have the same amount of faith. Anderson Cooper --

COOPER: Well, I can -- I can only hope to have the faith that he had.

TAPPER: Yes, no, it'd be -- it'd be nice. It's a gift. It's a gift. Anderson Cooper, thanks so much. Anderson, of course, is coming up with much more --

COOPER: Yes, it is.

TAPPER: -- from Rome on AC 360 tonight at 8 o'clock Eastern, only here on CNN.

Attention is going to quickly turn to the cardinals who will gather behind closed doors to select the next pope. Cardinals will eventually meet in the Sistine Chapel and begin the incredibly secretive process known as a conclave, which will only end when white smoke billows from the Vatican chimney, alerting the world that the decision has been made and we have a new pope.

CNN's Ben Wedeman has this look at some of the possible candidates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the top candidates to succeed Francis is the man who served as his second in command, the current Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Pietro Parolin.

From visiting war-torn Ukraine to brokering a deal that saw the Holy Sea meant ties with China. The 70-year-old Italian is seen as a skilled diplomat and a conciliatory figure who could appeal to both conservatives and progressives.

His election, however, could lead to clashes with the Trump administration as he has rebuked the U.S. President's Gaza plan.

Another top contender is Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu of the Democratic Republic of Congo. A strong defender of democracy and human rights, Ambongo has been cardinal since 2019.

CARDINAL FRIDOLIN AMBONGO BESUNGU (through translator): I am happy. I'm aware of the responsibility this appointment brings.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): That responsibility has seen him stand up to warlords and corrupt leaders becoming a respected moral voice. The 65- year-old is also the leader of a massive local church of more than 7 million people and represents the growing church in Africa.

A surprise candidate may be Cardinal Robert Prevost from the United States. America's global influence has made electors shy away from choosing a U.S. pope in the past but the 69-year-old from Chicago spent many years working in Peru before leading the powerful Vatican office for bishop appointments and he shouldn't be ruled out. The top contender though may hail from one of the corners of the globe where the church has been growing and few Cardinals are as charismatic as Luis Antonio Tagle from the Philippines, often dubbed the Asian Francis.

CARDINAL LUIS ANTONIO TAGLE: We believe that Jesus is alive and he was born in the minister, he died and rose from the dead in Asia.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): The 67-year old led the church's charitable arm as well as the Vatican Department of Evangelization. And he may be well-positioned as the church pivots toward parts of the world where it's expanding.

[17:35:07]

Still, it's impossible to say which, if any of these candidates will be chosen. If there's anything we can glean from past conclaves, it's that, usually, the favorites don't get picked.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, in fact, back in 2013, when the conclave was held after the resignation of Benedict XVI. Jorge Bergoglio, later to become Pope Francis, was not one of those top contenders. He was not considered papabile, popable. But then again, he went on to serve for 12 years as the pontiff. Jake?

TAPPER: It's just all so fascinating. Ben Wedeman in Rome, thank you so much for that report.

A stunning resignation at "CBS News" today, the executive producer is six -- of "60 Minutes" is stepping down, maybe even being forced out, what sources tell me about corporate influence being behind this move and why you should care.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:29]

TAPPER: Breaking news in our Money Lead. New comments from President Trump in the Oval Office this afternoon after his aggressive pressure campaign on Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no intention of firing him. I would like to see him be a little more active in terms of his idea to lower interest rates. This is a perfect time to lower interest rates. If he doesn't, is it the end? No, it's not. But it would be good timing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Top news there, of course. Trump says he has no plans to fire Powell. In our Politics Lead, the executive -- the executive producer of "CBS News 60 Minutes," Bill Owens, resigned today. Now, normally, that would probably not be news that we would bring you, except the circumstances rise to the level of, well, alarm. Owens said in a letter to his staff that, quote, over the past months, it has become clear that I would not be allowed to run the show as I have always run it, to make independent decisions based on what was right for "60 Minutes," right for the audience, unquote.

And the context here is key, because President Trump has been suing CBS News and its parent company, Paramount Global, for $20 billion for what the President calls, quote, unlawful and illegal behavior, unquote, though. His accusations, according to legal experts, do not withstand scrutiny. This is what happened.

Last fall, "60 Minutes" interviewed Vice President Harris. President Trump declined the show's offer to sit down with them for an interview. During the Harris interview, "60 Minutes" correspondent, Bill Whitaker, asked the then-sitting vice president why Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was not apparently listening to the Biden administration.

Now, a preview of her answer ran in a preview clip on CBS's "Face the Nation" on Sunday morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The work that we have done has resulted in a number of movements in that region by Israel that were very much prompted by or a result of many things, including our advocacy for what needs to happen in the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The next day, however, "60 Minutes" ran this answer when it ran the actual edited interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: We're not going to stop pursuing what is necessary for the United States to be clear about where we stand on the need for this war to end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, "CBS News" explained the discrepancy, saying that they merely ran two different parts from the same longer answer. And under pressure, they revealed their transcript. And that is indeed what they did. As frankly happens all the time, including with President Trump's taped interviews. For instance, just for instance, in June of 2024, this ran on "Fox."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you declassify the Epstein files?

TRUMP: Yes, yes. I would.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Definitive, firm, yes, I would. But as semaphore noted at the time, the full unedited version featured Trump sounding far less definitive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you declassify the Epstein files?

TRUMP: Yes, yes. I would.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.

TRUMP: I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know -- you don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The President alleges that editing the "60 Minutes" interview and running two different questions helped Vice President Harris and amounted to electoral fraud. In reality, this is just editorial discretion. Editors do it all the time with recorded interviews, including all the time with taped interviews and Donald Trump by "Fox," all the time.

And legal experts left, right, and center say that this lawsuit in a court would certainly fail spectacularly. But -- but Paramount Global, which owns "CBS News," is currently trying to merge with Sky Dance Media. And in order to do so, they need the approval of the Trump administration, specifically the FCC.

And under the FCC's brand new Trump supporting commissioner, Brendan Carr, it has been suggested that Trump's news distortion allegations against "60 Minutes" will be considered by the FCC before any merger is approved. Now, Shari Redstone is the majority owner of Paramount, and she stands to make a fortune if this multibillion dollar deal, this merger goes through.

[17:45:12]

And it seems as if Shari Redstone is likely to bend the knee to Trump and settle this allegedly frivolous lawsuit. Now, Bill Owens, until today, the head of "60 Minutes," rightly believes that "60 Minutes" has nothing to apologize for. And that's what's going on. That's the context.

One "60 Minutes" source tells me, quote, the lawsuit was baseless. He wouldn't apologize, meaning Bill. Bill Owens wouldn't bend. He fought for the broadcast and for independent journalism. And that cost him his job. It's shameful, unquote.

A second "60 Minutes" source tells me, quote, Bill had widespread -- has widespread support at "60." He's dedicated his life to CBS and the broadcast. And this was his last act of dedication to it. It's like a guy who has been battling for months against an attack, unable to defend the broadcast from inappropriate corporate influence. He pulls the pin from his last grenade. He sacrificed himself, hoping it might make our corporate overlords wake up and realize they risk destroying what makes "60 Minutes" great.

It seems clear now in a quest to sell the company, Shari Redstone and others will bow to presidential pressure. "60 Minutes" is one of the crown jewels of American broadcast journalism, and they have no problem crushing it in their race to make a deal and make themselves richer, unquote.

Shari Redstone had no comment when we reached out. President Trump, of course, has been trying to kneecap anyone providing oversight of over -- over his administration. He literally started his administration by firing a whole bunch of inspectors general.

He is currently ignoring judges and courts. He and his mega forces intimidate the legislative branch from uttering even a peep of criticism. They're going after law firms. They're going after universities. And this war against the fourth estate journalists is of this piece. Owens is not without his critics, of course, but this is not about one man or even about one show.

It's about an attempt to be rid of criticism. The Pentagon has taken the offices of CNN and "NBC" and "The New York Times" and "Politico" and reassigned them to outlets that provide more flattering coverage like "Breitbart." The White House is doing the same with wire services. It's war against the Associated Press and bringing in folks like this one from last Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And photos have emerged of Senator Van Hollen sipping what appears to be margaritas with Abrego Garcia down in El Salvador. Do you encourage other Democrats to fly down to El Salvador to meet with this illegal alien who's an accused wife beater?

TRUMP: I like this guy. See, now this is -- this is the kind of reporter we like. There aren't enough of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That person, of course, that was asking that question was asking about a lie. Senator Chris Van Hollen says that those margaritas were never touched. They were set up on the table by somebody working for the president of El Salvador to make a joke of this senator's meeting. Those margarita glasses were propaganda.

And that's what that person asked about. And of course, that's the kind of reporter that the President likes, because that question was not the question of a reporter. And that is the context of Shari Red -- Redstone's likely bending of the knee. Hope the money's worth it, Shari.

[17:48:35]

Coming up next, the fears associated with artificial dyes in your food and drinks, and the new plan just announced to do something about it.

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TAPPER: Moments ago in our Health Lead, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who leads the Department of Health and Human Services, announced a plan to phase out artificial food dyes from the U.S. food supply. Let's bring in CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, at issue here, as I understand it, are petroleum-based dyes. What is the concern?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, petroleum- based dyes are exactly what they sound like. These are these dyes that are made from petrochemicals, in part because, Jake, these chemicals are really stable. So when you're thinking about some of the colors, which are typically colors that are not found in nature, that you're finding in these foods, it's because it has this petrochemical sort of background to it.

Look, I -- I can point out several of these to you. You see these foods, but like these cherries, for example, that is not normal. That's red dye number three, which, by the way, was banned, you know, back in January, last administration. This is yellow dye here.

These Cheetos, yellow dye number six, blue dye number one. You get the idea. This is mint mouthwash. That also is dyes, green dye number three. These are several of the dyes that they are planning on either slowly or more rapidly starting to remove.

The concern is -- is really going back 30 years ago. Initially, when these dyes started to come out, there was some concern. Look, could this potentially be causing cancer in animals? And they started looking at that.

There wasn't enough data at that point to say, hey, look, we're certain of this. There was concerns about certain carcinogens and then neurobehavioral problems in children as well. These are hard studies to do, Jake, because there's a lot of things that are happening at the same time.

I mean, phones, smartphones started coming out 20 years ago. The environment changed in other ways as well. We don't know. This is more correlation versus causation, but that's what's really driving their thinking, Jake.

[17:55:06]

TAPPER: What advice do you have for people who want to eliminate such dyes from their diet?

GUPTA: Well, first of all, keep in mind, there's many countries around the world that have done that and they're still able to eat a lot of these foods. What I would tell you just as -- as quickly as I can, I think, is that many of the dyes that we're talking about are primarily found in ultra-processed foods. If colors -- you're seeing colors in your food that you don't see in nature. You're probably eating those dyes. If you want to avoid that, don't eat those foods. And that's primarily ultra-processed foods.

Check the labels, but the labels aren't going to tell you anything other than whether the dye is present or not. You don't know how much you're really getting, the cumulative effects. So best to try and avoid those foods in the first place, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

Coming up, the explanation deemed acceptable and not acceptable today from Defense Secretary Hegseth, who shared military strike plans in a group chat with his wife and his brother and his personal attorney.

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