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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Shifts Tone on China, Fed Chair After CEO Warnings; Pope Francis Lies in State at St. Peter's Basilica; Small Business Owners Grapple With Trump Tariffs. Man Seeks Clemency From Hochul After Reinstated Conviction; Sources: FEMA To Lose About 20 Percent Of Staff Ahead Of Hurricane Season. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, some of America's biggest CEOs warning President Trump directly that store shelves could go bare and prices could go up amid his unprecedented tariffs, not to mention his attacks on the Federal Reserve chair. Now, the White House is backtracking on both issues, but is the damage already done?

[18:00:00]

What President Trump just said about these issues in the Oval Office.

Plus, we're heading to West Virginia for our series on how Trump's tariffs are affecting small business owners across the country. Are farmers seeing any benefits from the new policies or are rising prices threatening their bottom lines?

Also, a man who a court already decided could walk free because he didn't get sufficient counsel in his first case faces 17 more years in prison tomorrow if the Governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, does not act. His lawyer will join us live in minutes.

As crowds gather to say goodbye to Pope Francis, controversy is brewing around the conclave, the process to choose his successor. Will a cardinal convicted of crimes by the Vatican be allowed to vote on the church's next leader?

Our Lead Tonight, the Trump administration signaling a possible U-turn on its tariffs against China as warnings of financial turmoil over President Trump's unpredictable economic policies continue to inundate the White House.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House for us. Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, there are unmistakable signs, several of them, in fact, that the U.S. is gingerly working toward trying to reach a deal with China. This trade war, of course, has been escalating week by week, but China has not blinked at all. The U.S. suddenly is saying that it wants to extend a hand.

This is what the president said just a few moments ago about President Xi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I get along very well with President Xi. I hope we can make a deal. Otherwise, we'll set a price and hopefully they'll come here and they'll contribute. And if they don't, that's okay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So, very friendly, soft language there. Of course, the tariffs are at 145 percent. Several administration officials that say the U.S. is interested and willing to lower them, but only if China meets them halfway. That, of course, as the US sending a signal it is ready to negotiate. So far, no word from China at all. It does not like the bluster from this administration, so we shall see how this goes forward.

But the president also, just a few moments ago, once again, a softer tone against his chairman of the Federal Reserve. He's saying he has no plans to fire Jerome Powell. Instead, he's saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I believe he's making a mistake by not lowering interest rates, and I think as well as we're doing would do much better. He's keeping rates too high.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So, of course, it's an independent agency, the Federal Reserve. The president said he might reach out and make a phone call to him. Of course, that has not happened.

But, Jake, when you take all of these things together, as well as a speech earlier this morning from the treasury secretary, this administration keeping a very close eye on the markets and trying to change things up a bit, as well as the meeting we learned about Monday in the Oval Office.

TAPPER: And, Jeff, we're also learning new details about the fallout from that meeting Trump had with the top retail CEOs who were warning the president that the tariffs are going to do more harm than good. What specifically did they tell him? And do you think it resonated with Trump? Is that why we are seeing this softer side?

ZELENY: Talking to administration officials, there is no doubt that it resonated with him. They bluntly said, look, you're going to see empty store shelves by summer. The prices are going up. There's a supply chain issue here if this tariff deal does not get worked out.

So, the CEOs of Walmart, of course, the biggest retailer, Lowe's, Home Depot, Target as well, meeting privately with the White House. But, Jake, I'm told this meeting was organized by the White House. So, it was described to me as something of an education session, if you will, for the president to hear the firsthand effects of what is actually happening to American consumers.

So, that meeting happened on Monday and we've seen a softer tone ever since. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thanks so much.

Let's bring in Economist Diane Swonk right now. Diane, stocks are rebounding as the White House seemingly backtracks on tariffs and the potential for the firing of the Fed chair, Jerome Powell. But do you fear at all that permanent damage has been done just in the sense of the unpredictability, the instability, the capriciousness of the president's economic policies?

DIANE SWONK, CHIEF ECONOMIST, KPMG: That is a concern. What we're seeing is stocks sort of react to any beacon of light amidst the storm of trade wars and the flurry of 178 executive orders or proclamations trying to change even the independence of independent agencies, including the Federal Reserve. And those are still out there. We've also seen a lot of movement on tariffs for everything, from unfair trade practices, dumping to national security matters, to other issues that are more permanent than those that are just signed by executive order, the emergency use of the tariffs that we're seeing out there.

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And that is something important too, because it means that this administration for the talk of wanting to bring back tariffs a bit and deescalate with China, that's going to require a lot of negotiation, which the treasury secretary himself has already described as going to be quite a slog.

TAPPER: Yes. Speaking of the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, he spoke at an economic event earlier today and he signaled a willingness to work with other countries, including China, as you know. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: China's current economic model is built on exporting its way out of its economic troubles. It's an unsustainable model that is not only harming China but the entire world.

We want to help it change because we need rebalancing too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Bessent later told reporters that it could take two to three years to fully rebalance trade with China. Can the Trump administration really force China or at least work with China to get a successful change of its economic model and are tariffs the way to do that? SWONK: Well, those are two very different questions. Sure, they could work with China, and I think we should be working with China to get a better balance between the two countries, and there needs to be issues addressed. There were issues that could have been addressed by other trade packs, like that was negotiated many years ago and rejected by this administration as well, and that's important.

I think from the perspective of tariffs, we all understand, they sound good in theory, but in reality, the economic evidence on them is pretty unequivocal, and I think that's what the president had to hear from the CEOs that bare shelves is exactly what we're hearing as well. Some are not ordering anything at all, which means shortages and their supply chains with China that you just can't replace. There's no substitute.

And I think that's something that gets lost in translation, that when you're cutting off trade with a country that you don't have any substitutes for, that's not only going to be costly, it's going to be -- there's going to be actual shortages of things that are very important.

TAPPER: Diane Swonk, thanks so much. I appreciate your time.

Let's bring in Republican Strategist T.W. Arrighi and former communications director for Vice President Harris, pardon me, Ashley Etienne.

T.W., let me start with you. Does it concern you at all that there's this ongoing internal campaign at the White House to try to make President Trump understand the real world impact of these tariffs? Does that -- do you think that at all is part of the concern some people have about the president and economic credibility?

T.W. ARRIGIHI, VICE PRESIDENT, PUSH DIGITAL GROUP: Sort of. I'd be surprised if it didn't happen. Look, I was under -- I don't think President Trump was under any illusion that this would be a rocky road implementing these policies. And, obviously, with Peter Navarro and Scott Bessent, you have a diversity of opinion.

I think what's really shaken the White House has been the bond market, currency going the wrong way, and things that were supposed to happen when we implemented tariffs, a stronger currency, for example, they haven't born fruit. So, now with back to school shopping around the corner, obviously Christmas, there's going to be dissent of, well, how do we play this moving forward?

TAPPER: And I have to say, Ashley, maybe you disagree with me, but when I think about what the Democratic Party on Capitol Hill, not brilliant consultants like you, but the Democratic Party on Capitol Hill, what they've been talking about for the last two weeks, it seems like a lot of them have been talking about the undocumented immigrant, you know, who beat his wife and he is now in El Salvador as opposed to all this economic turmoil, that I would theoretically think would be something the Democrats would want to talk about a lot more.

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS: Well, Jake, I was just on the phone with the Democratic Party, the DNC, they had a call for folks like me, to your point, the smart consultants, to educate them on where the party is and what the party's working on. And over the last week, during the at the most recent recess, and they're continuing to do this, they're having these town halls that are hyper-focused on the economy and Trump's mishandling of the economy.

What they're seeing right now is the plurality of these polls where American people are starting to feel the impact of not just these tariffs but that life is more expensive under Donald Trump. The plurality of the polls are saying that the American people disagree with Trump's positioning and approach to the economy as well as to the tariffs. So, they're trying their best to take full advantage of it.

But outside of the beltway in these, not just blue districts, but in the red districts, in the red state, you said you guys are going to West Virginia. There are headlines in West Virginia that are saying Trump's tariffs are going to cost the state $3 billion. The Democratic Party's trying to exploit that. And I think it's really starting to have an impact.

TAPPER: So, you're right about the polls with a lot of people expressing concern about President Trump's economic approach, and, T.W., one of the things they're expressing concern about is however brilliant people think he is, Elon Musk is not a particularly popular person nationwide.

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In the Oval Office, just a few moments ago, President Trump was asked about Elon Musk, who is scheduled to, you know, take a break from DOGE and his work in the administration. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He loves the country. He didn't need to do this. He did it. And I told him, I said, you know, whenever you're ready, I'd like to keep him for a long time, but whenever you're ready. He's an exceptional guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What do you think is actually going on behind the scenes? Is it time for Elon Musk, do you think in the eyes of the president's team, to go back to Tesla?

ARRIGHI: Well, his position was always a temporary appointment.

TAPPER: Sure, yes.

ARRIGHI: And I do believe he will have some role to play in the rest of the term.

But, look, Elon had an edict, right? It was go in, cut, slash, break stuff if necessary. I think he's accomplished that mission. I think he's been a heat shield for Trump and a lot of the criticisms of DOGE. And now I think obviously he knew his businesses would take a hit. They obviously have. Now it's time for him to tend to matters of home. And I see it as completely congruent with what the game plan was going into it.

TAPPER: To that point, do you think that Democrats have let Elon Musk serve as the lightning rod instead of President Trump too much?

ETIENNE: Absolutely not. I think it was intentional. I mean, the priority first is to get rid of Elon Musk. You don't want him in that position because of the damage he's doing. In fact, I think before he leaves, we need to have him answer questions, not just to you, Jake, but to Capitol Hill about what he did with the data that he accessed at the Treasury Department, that he accessed it at IRS. I mean, there's some reports that he sent it up to the cloud. Where is that data? What is he doing with that data? That is incredibly dangerous stuff. And we've somehow lost that narrative in the media, lost that narrative within the Democratic Party, and I think that is where we need to lean in on Elon Musk before he leaves office.

And here's the other thing. I'm not so sure that Elon Musk loves this country. I don't know that I believe Donald Trump when he actually says that, but I do believe the Democratic Party has done an incredible job of dividing and creating a wedge between those two, in between Donald Trump and Elon Musk, and really positioning Elon Musk as a shadow president.

ARRIGHI: I don't think he would surrender billions of dollars of wealth if he didn't love this country.

TAPPER: I think he loves this country. This country is very lovable.

ETIENNE: No, we actually are. But my there's point is there's a lot we don't know about his motivation. Explain to me why he needed to access that data. It had nothing to do with cutting costs. It had nothing to do with cutting costs.

TAPPER: I would love it if he would give us an interview.

ETIENNE: Absolutely.

TAPPER: He only talks to Fox.

ETIENNE: We need to pressure him and pressure the president to answer those questions.

TAPPER: Ashley, T.W., thanks so much.

Nearly 20,000 people waiting in line today to pay their respects and say farewell to Pope Francis. Next, we're going to head to St. Peter Square for an update on preparations for both the funeral and the conclave.

Plus. The growing scrutiny around Jennifer Hegseth, that's the wife of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who submitted paperwork for a security clearance despite having no job at the Pentagon,

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: Our Faith Lead, moments ago, we saw people rushing to make the line to enter St. Peter's Basilica to pay their respects to the pope before the lines to St. Peter's Basilica closed at midnight in Rome, ending the first of three days when the publican paid their final respects and say goodbye to Pope Francis, who's lying in state ahead of his funeral Saturday.

CNN's Anderson Cooper's live for us in St. Peter's Square. Anderson, there were long lines all day where you are right now. What are you seeing and hearing from the crowds?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: There are still a number of people here, probably several hundred at the very least. It seems like they have now closed down the square to new people coming in. But the lines -- there were two lines all day long kind of snaking a around for people to get into the basilica. Those lines are still here. They are getting shorter. So, as soon as this group finally finishes, there won't be anybody else coming in, I think, until tomorrow morning, Jake.

TAPPER: Dozens of cardinals from around the world are coming for the funeral. They also will stay because they're going to have a hand in electing the next pope. And while the papal conclave is expected to begin in the coming weeks, there's already a bit of controversy. Why?

COOPER: I lost --

TAPPER: Anderson -- we lost Anderson. Sorry about that. In any case, the reason for the -- okay. Well, Anderson Cooper has much more tonight on AC360. That's tonight at 8:00 Eastern only here on CNN.

Coming up, did Russia-Ukraine ceasefire talks hit a major roadblock today? The new comments from President Trump, as allies meet overseas to try and negotiate peace, that's next.

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TAPPER: And we're back. Let's pick up our Faith Lead. We lost audio with CNN's Anderson Cooper in St. Peter's Square, but he's back now.

So, Anderson, as I mentioned, I'm fascinated by conclaves and dozens of cardinals from around the world are coming for the funeral, they're also going to have a hand in electing the next pope. And while the conclave is expected to begin in coming weeks to pick the next pope, there is already some controversy. Tell us what it's.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, it's like out of the movie conclave. Actually, I want to bring in Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb with me.

This is fascinating. There's a cardinal from Sardinia who had been convicted of a financial crime by a Vatican court. What is the kerfuffle for? CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Cardinal Becciu, who was once one of the most powerful figures in the Vatican, lost his rights and responsibilities or privileges as a cardinal after he was embroiled in this Vatican financial scandal involved a disastrous property investment, lost the Vatican a lot, by tens of millions of dollars. And he was forced to resign those rights and responsibilities. And most people assume that that meant he can't go to the conclave.

COOPER: You would think if he --

LAMB: You would think.

COOPER: -- he's lost all rights and responsibilities as a cardinal, you would think he couldn't vote. But he says he can vote.

LAMB: Yes. But he has told reporters in Sardinia, local reporters there, that he can go to the conclave, that although he lost those rights and responsibilities and privileges, it was never stated that he can't go to the conclave.

COOPER: So, is he still a cardinal?

LAMB: He's still a cardinal. He's considered a retired cardinal, but the Vatican lists him as a non-elector. So, he can attend the meetings leading up to the conclave, but he can't, according to the Vatican, at least, go inside the Sistine Chapel.

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But he says he can.

COOPER: So, how does -- I mean, do they bar him at the door?

LAMB: Well, I think there's going to have to be some stern and frank words, I imagine. It's basically up --

COOPER: All in hushed tones.

LAMB: Well, yes. I imagine it will be in hush tones. But, basically, it's up to those who are running the conclave. The dean, of course, those from -- those who watched Conclave, the movie, will know about the dean, and other senior figures to work out what they're going to do about this situation.

COOPER: And in total, how many will cardinals will be voting? There's 135 cardinals.

LAMB: 135 electors. Of course, there is a limit of 120 electors, but Pope Francis went over that limit. 135 electors from across the world, the majority of them appointed by Pope Francis.

COOPER: Which adds a whole fascinating element, and also the majority of them from the global south, no longer the majority from Europe and the United States. LAMB: Exactly. Pope Francis' appointments reflecting the shift in the axis of Catholicism, which is now seeing growth in Asia and Africa. And the pope appointing cardinals from places like, Tonga, Haiti, the Central African Republic, Mongolia, so really internationalizing it, really.

COOPER: And the dynamic a lot of people think of, is it going to be a conservative pope? Is it going to be a more liberal, a progressive pope? That may not just -- that's not the only dynamic there is. There's global south, global north, what issues cardinals from countries, like Democratic Republic of Congo are concerned about, about corruption, things like that.

LAMB: Absolutely. It's not going to be simply the kind of conservative, progressive framing that we might imagine.

I think there's basically three choices in front of the cardinals, one, you continue on the line of Pope Francis. Two, you try and go a different direction, or the third one, perhaps something in the middle, continuing Francis' reforms, but perhaps with a more conservative or cautious approach, less of the shock and awe and surprises that Francis has had.

COOPER: It's fascinating. Christopher Lamb, thank you so much.

Jake, the pope will be lying in state for two more days. We expect tens of thousands more people to come tomorrow and the day after that.

TAPPER: Anderson, I expect you to get one of those cardinal outfits and infiltrate the conclave and be giving us live reports throughout the whole thing, secret ones. Thank you so much, Anderson, Christopher Lamb, I appreciate it.

Turning into our World Lead, in what might be his strongest comments since October 7th, 2023, the Palestinian authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the terrorist group, Hamas, specifically condemning the leaders as, quote, sons of dogs, blasting the group that the U.S. and Israel both and the E.U. considered to be terrorists, for giving Israel, quote, justifications to attack Gaza and calling for Hamas to return the remaining hostages immediately.

Abbas' speech was delivered from the occupied West Bank earlier today where he accused Hamas terrorists of inflicting severe damage to the cause of the Palestinian people since the Palestinians took control of the Gaza Strip in 2005. This comes less than a month after Palestinians and Gaza took to the streets and openly protested Hamas, some as CNN previously reported, were killed first speaking out against Hamas.

Also in our world lead moments ago, President Trump weighing in on the war in Ukraine after Trump slammed President Zelenskyy for prolonging the war. That's what he said. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think we have a deal with Russia. We have to get a deal with Zelenskyy and I hope that Zelenskyy -- I thought it might be easier to deal with Zelenskyy. So, far it's been harder, but that's okay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This after Vice President Vance earlier today kicked the ball to European leaders to be the ones to continue leading the negotiations, adding that he thinks the next phase would be to freeze the current territorial lines where they are now.

Now, back in Ukraine, the war has resumed in full force after that brief Easter respite. Today, a Russian drone struck a bus carrying people to work, killing 9, injuring 30, according to the Ukrainian government.

Despite all this British officials say, Ukraine talks held in London were, quote, productive and successful, even after us Secretary of State Marco Rubio backed out of attending the talks last minute.

Joining us now to talk about all of this, Democratic Congressman from Massachusetts Jake Auchincloss, who also served as a U.S. Marine in Afghanistan. Congressman, thanks for joining us. So, take a listen to President Trump moments ago talking more about why he wants this war to end as soon as possible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And we have it down to $65 a barrel. It went up to almost $100 a barrel, and at that number, Putin and Russia made a lot of money. So, I think one of the reasons -- look, I think he has a certain respect for me, but one of the reasons, one of the big reasons is oil prices are down. I think this is a good time to get the war settled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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TAPPER: What's your reaction, Congressman?

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS (D-MA): Putin does not have respect for Donald Trump because Donald Trump negotiates with Russia out of a posture of appeasement, and Putin only respects strength. The way to conduct these negotiations is for the United States to state clearly here is how we are going to ensure Ukraine's security. We are going to let it use the 300 billion Euros in Russian frozen assets to field and equip a million man army. We are going to guarantee it freedom of navigation in the Black Sea. And it is going to enter the European Union so that it can have an E.U. rapid response force for security guarantees.

That is how you negotiate with Russia, from strength, by declaring Ukraine's security and then seeing what Russia is willing to offer. You do not start the negotiations by giving them everything they asked for.

TAPPER: As a veteran, your opinion on what's going on at the Pentagon is of interest to our viewers. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is obviously on the ropes. Sources tell CNN that his wife, his third wife, Jennifer Hegseth, who does not have an official Pentagon role or security clearance, is part of his shrinking inner circle as he, according to insiders, grows more paranoid. But we do know that he included her on a Signal chat where he shared the same information about the pending attack on the Houthis in Yemen.

As somebody who has fought in Afghanistan, how do you feel about this information about a pending attack being shared on a Signal chat with people like his wife, like his brother, like his lawyer, and on that other Signal chat accidentally with a journalist, Jeffrey Goldberg?

AUCHINCLOSS: Every young officer is taught leadership by example. Hypocrisy, double standards, these are toxic to esprit decor, to morale, to good order and discipline within the ranks. What Hegseth is trying to get away with is conduct that should a captain or a corporal have committed it, it would be career-ending for them. And I assure you that every single uniformed individual knows that and it is corroding their respect for him and, frankly, for the chain of command. The man needs to be fired.

TAPPER: He was an officer in the Minnesota army National Guard. He served abroad. He surely knows that. I mean, we've heard him say similar things that you just said, except he was talking about Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. How do your fellow veterans who are Republicans -- do they talk to you about this?

AUCHINCLOSS: I think they understand that when an individual comes into that office, talks about returning the Pentagon to the warfighters and then spends three months installing a makeup studio in the Pentagon so he can do Fox News hits is not an individual who's serious about actually improving morale or readiness within the Department of Defense, nor is it an individual who is going to be taken seriously by the likes of Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping or the ayatollah.

Our enemies are looking across the negotiating table at him, at Tulsi Gabbard, and they think we're setting the junior varsity squad. It's making Americans less safe.

TAPPER: Hegseth's former spokesman, John Ullyot, said in a statement, quote, it's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon from leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings. If you were still out on the battlefield while all this was happening, how would you feel, Congressman? The same way I feel now, which is that I blame Senator John Thune. For this John Thune and other Senate Republicans know that he is manifestly unfit and unqualified for this job. They confirmed him and abdicated their Article 1 responsibility because they didn't want to upset the dear leader. And by doing so, they have made this nation's military less ready and less fit in fighting to take on our adversaries, particularly China and the Indo-Pacific.

TAPPER: But isn't recruitment way up?

AUCHINCLOSS: Recruitment is one element of the military's readiness. The other element is esprit decor and morale. The other element is our ability to procure equipment competently. The other element is how the Department of Defense negotiates against foreign parties, and all of these are being degraded by his lack of professionalism and his lack of managerial competence.

TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Jake Auchincloss, thank you so much. I appreciate your time today, sir. President Trump today seemingly softening his stance on the trade war with China, but is it too late to avoid the major impacts on small businesses? We're going to travel to West Virginia next to talk to some people directly affected.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our Money Lead now, we are continuing with our series hearing directly from small business owners from coast to coast about how Trump's tariffs have affected them directly. Some have been happy with the tariffs, many are not.

My guests today are Ed and Becky Morgan, who own and operate Quicken Farms in West Virginia. Ed and Becky, thanks so much for joining us and thank you for introducing us to your cattle over there.

Your farm is the only livestock producer, processor in West Virginia. What products do you sell that are most impacted right now?

ED MORGAN, CO-OWNER, QUICKEN FARM: Just about any meat product, any protein product. And it's impacted because of the -- excuse me, because of the packaging. We have to basically plastic bags or some of the equipment, it's definitely raised the prices. For example, we just placed a bag order. We buy the bags once a year. Typically, our bag orders are between $1,500 to about $1,750 a year. Just here, what, like four days ago, it was almost $2,600.

[18:40:00]

And, you know, we are going to do the very best that we can to not pass that added expense on to the consumer. But I'll tell you, it's going to be tough. You know, we don't work on these huge margins, so it's going to be rather difficult.

TAPPER: Well, what is your margin, if you don't mind asking? Because most of the business owners we've talked to, their margin is somewhere between 5 and 8 percent.

BECKY MORGAN, CO-OWNER, QUICKEN FARM: Yes, that's generous. I think you'll find most people are going to be like us and we don't get a paycheck. There is no paycheck to us. We just kind of have to figure ourselves into part of the budget to keep the lights on. It's not a separate business. It's our way of life. So, yes, our margins right now before the markup is probably 5, maybe 6 percent.

TAPPER: Yes. President Trump is hinting at a deal right now that would come soon with China. Would lower tariffs make a significant difference for you or has already so much already happened that it's going to be tough for you to recover from this year?

E. MORGAN: I think it -- I appreciate any forward movement. Myself, I definitely appreciate it. I think, unfortunately, it's not just the tariffs that are causing the problem. It's just overall uncertainty. You know, we don't know what's going to happen in the next two hours. You know, something absolutely could change 180 degrees, just like what we're seeing right now. You know, he is talking about all but removing the tariff from China.

TAPPER: The Trump administration -- go ahead, keep going.

B, MORGAN: Oh, no. Just like it's just so hard because everything is up in the air, like we're having calves right now. We don't know whether to hold them back or sell them. We don't know what to plan on. And for us, everything has to be planned so far out in advance. The uncertainty hurts more honestly than what the individual prices do. We stand a chance of overcoming prices. We can't overcome uncertainty.

TAPPER: Yes. And meanwhile, obviously the Trump administration cutting a lot of programs, they slashed the budget for the Department of Agriculture's Farm to School program recently, which I understand you were part of. What parts of your operation have been hit because of the funding cut for Farm to School?

E. MORGAN: About 45 percent. We were fortunate enough to be able to supply several local school systems, districts in our area. Unfortunately, some of them aren't able to continue because they don't have that additional funding. It makes it very much -- very difficult.

B. MORGAN: It stops any expansion too. We had hopes of building ourselves up with the school systems because that's a good, steady paycheck. You know, it's fulfilling a contracted order that we can rely on. And now --

E. MORGAN: It's manageable.

B. MORGAN: Yes. Any chance of expansion now, though, is gone without the funding.

TAPPER: Becky Morgan from West Virginia. Thank you so much. Keep in touch with us. God bless.

E. MORGAN: I appreciate it. Thank you.

TAPPER: New York Governor Kathy Hochul has just hours to decide whether to grant clemency to a man who one court already decided did not get a fair trial but he still might go back to prison. His lawyer joins us next.

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[18:47:37]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our law and justice lead, a man who a court in New York already decided could walk free because he did not get inadequate, did not get adequate counsel, still faces 17 more years in prison tomorrow. Andre Brown served 23 years of a 40-year sentence for attempted murder. His sentence was vacated in 2022 because of inadequate counsel.

His prior legal team hadn't even introduced the physical impossibility, Andre says, of him committing the crime. Witnesses at the scene of a shooting in 1999 saw the perpetrator running. At the time, Andre was recovering from having been shot in the leg, resulting in multiple surgeries and a chronic limp. The lawyer did not introduce that in evidence.

But an appeals court, even after his sentence was vacated and he was released, an appeals court disagreed with the lower court vacating his conviction, and Andre now faces 17 more years in prison, unless, of course, New York Governor Kathy Hochul grants Andre clemency by tomorrow.

Andre's lawyer, Oscar Michelen, joins us now.

So, Oscar, the governor of New York, has until tomorrow to respond to give him clemency so that the 23 years he served are enough. The appeals court does raise some questions we want you to shed light on while Governor Hochul makes this decision. Okay?

The appeals court goes into a few reasons why they reversed the court of the lower court that vacated his sentence. They say off the bat that the inadequate counsel defense does not hold up.

The appeals court decision reads: It's unclear from the record as to whether Lee, that's Brown's original lawyer, was informed of the existence of such a defense and that he ignored it without investigation, unquote. Can you respond to that?

OSCAR MICHELEN, ATTORNEY FOR ANDRE BROWN: Sure. Well, thank you for covering the story, Jake. We very much appreciate it. It's important that people understand exactly what happened in Andre's case.

So, Andre's lawyer, before Lee, raised it in court, told the judge he couldn't do it because he was unable to run due to a physical injury. So, there's no way that Lee was unaware of that because, first of all, Andre told him and the court that reversed his conviction found Andre credible with that respect and said it was -- there was evidence that Lee was aware of the medical impossibility, but just completely neglected it.

[18:50:03]

And so, there was certainly more than ample opportunity for Lee to find out, that the medical impossibility defense existed and that there was evidence to support it.

TAPPER: So, the appeals court also found conflict in Andre's testimony about his injury and his doctor, Dr. Ronald Simon's testimony. Simon had testified that he had no independent memory of the defendant or his medical condition, and he couldn't say with certainty that someone with Andre's condition would not have been able to run at that point in his recovery. We should inform our viewers that all of this took place in 1999.

So how do you respond to that, that the appeals court said, well, we don't know that even if he did have this injury, that that meant he couldn't have done this crime. MICHELEN: Well, first of all, as Dr. Simon testified at the hearing,

no medical expert could ever testify to 100 percent certainty. You could only testify as to what medical science would say is a -- is a reasonable probability. And what Dr. Simon testified who was one of Andre's actual surgeons, was that someone with this level of injury and these three surgeries, including a full leg skin graft, could not run within 11 months of his last surgery.

The discrepancy was that Andre had made a better recovery years later, and Dr. Simon did testify that he would not have expected someone to have recovered that well years later. But he was unequivocal and not really contested at all. That within that 11-month period, from the date of Andre's last surgery to the date of this purported crime, and his testimony was no way, no how could a person run?

TAPPER: So, we're out of time.

MICHELEN: We're pretty clear.

TAPPER: We're out of time, Oscar. But I do want to give you an opportunity to speak directly to Governor Hochul. Why should she offer Andre clemency?

MICHELEN: Normally, when you grant clemency, you don't know how someone is going to perform in society because they're in custody. Andre has been out for two years. He's a loving father, a supportive parent, and more importantly, is working within the court system.

And so, he poses no risk to society and no risk to the safety of people in the Bronx. So clemency should be granted and not tear apart a thriving, successful family.

TAPPER: Oscar Michelen, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.

When billions of dollars in emergency funds were stalled, the Trump administration rushed funding to some states. But which states? Who got left out? That's next.

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TAPPER: This just in to our national lead, sources tell CNN that FEMA, the federal agency that delivers assistance to communities devastated by natural disasters, is set to lose roughly 20 percent of FEMA's permanent staff, including longtime leaders.

CNN's Gabe Cohen just broke the story.

Gabe, what are you learning about these cuts to FEMA?

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Jake, we're talking about -- about a thousand workers in this. But what is most alarming here, and most noteworthy is that we're talking about a ton of FEMA's senior leadership. People with the most institutional knowledge who play critical roles during disasters, who are taking these voluntary DOGE buyouts and choosing to head to the door rather than stay at the agency.

And having talked to about a half dozen sources at FEMA about this, the primary reason seems to be that people are just fed up working there, given the attacks that they have faced in recent months. It's not a secret. President Trump and his allies have been attacking FEMA. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem has vowed to eliminate the agency altogether. And so, these people we know, lie detector tests have been used on a lot of these FEMA officials.

So, one FEMA official staffer told me, quote, people don't want to work here anymore, and they are worried about what the agency will look like in a year. Another senior FEMA official said, all of these people have seen their work destroyed and denigrated. They started seeing that FEMA might actually be killed.

So, there is a lot of concern about what this is going to mean come hurricane season, just a few weeks away. Given that this is just one aspect of the staffing reductions FEMA is facing.

TAPPER: And we're also learning that the Trump administration prioritized emergency funding, specifically up to a couple Republican- led states. What are you learning about that?

COHEN: Yeah, so we know that last month, Jake, there was a massive backlog, more than $100 billion in grants and disaster relief that were really just sitting at FEMA because the staff there was waiting on guidance from the Trump administration on how they could send all of that money to cities and states around the country without violating the presidents executive orders around immigration funding.

At that time, when almost no money was getting out the door at FEMA, we learned that top state officials in Missouri, who are Republican, lobbied the Department of Homeland Security, asked them to free up some of their money so that they could pay their state emergency management teams. That request was forwarded along to FEMA. FEMA's acting administrator, who is a Trump appointee, directed staff to start prioritizing payments to Missouri and get those out the door.

And then another directive last week came to those same FEMA staff members saying, this time, prioritize payments to Virginia. To be clear, DHS, the White House deny any preferential treatment to red states. But certainly, officials raising concerns.

TAPPER: All right. Gabe Cohen, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

I have two books coming out. In May, we have "Original Sin" about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and the cover up of his decline. And in October, "Race Against Terror", about the hunt to prosecute an Al Qaeda terrorist who killed Americans and was out to kill more. You can check both of them out at jaketapper.com and preorder there.

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