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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Says Clock Is Ticking On Countries To Make Trade Deals; House GOP Hardliners Deal With Major Blow To Trump Agenda; DHS Requests Help From 20,000 National Guard Members; Axios Obtains Audio Recordings Of Special Counsel Robert Hur's Interview With Joe Biden. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired May 16, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.
This hour, a major blow for the Trump agenda, just as the president warns the clock is ticking for 150 countries to make a deal with him or face higher tariffs.
[18:00:04]
Coming up, what went wrong for the president today and what does it mean for your wallet?
Plus, our small business series takes us to Texas today where a mother and her young daughter work together to make family friendly products. How have the Trump tariffs impacted their company? Have they had to raise prices on customers? And what is their message amid what so many see as economic chaos?
Also a stunning headline from the Department of Homeland Security today confirming that they are in the beginning stages of the vetting process for some sort of reality show dealing with immigrants. The Wall Street Journal says immigrants would compete against each other for the chance to win potential U.S. citizenship. Our panel will weigh in on that ahead.
And a tragedy in Mexico, a young woman shot and killed while broadcasting live on TikTok. She's the latest victim of a disturbing trend that we'll tell you all about. But what is being done to stop it?
The Lead Tonight, President Trump redefining the art of the trade deal. Some countries will now get letters instead of meetings, telling them their expected tariff rate.
And CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in Abu Dhabi where President Trump just wrapped up his Middle East trip. Jeff?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the tariff rollercoaster rolls on and so much for the 90 deals in 90 days. That's what White House officials promised in the wake of the president lifting those tariffs just last month. But the president today acknowledging that this is more difficult than they thought, renegotiating all of these trade deals with all of these countries. He spoke out about it earlier today in Abu Dhabi after meeting with business leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We have at the same time 150 countries that want to make a deal, but you're not able to see that many countries. So, at a certain point over the next two to three weeks, I think Scott and Howard will be sending letters out essentially telling people -- it will be very fair, but we'll be telling people what they'll be paying to do business in the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENY: So, this clearly is the latest really iteration of the president, perhaps getting ahead of some of his officials. I'm told that some White House advisers were taken a bit aback by this. In fact, one of his top economic advisers, like Kevin Hassett, said new deals are expected to be announced next week.
But, Jake, in any case, this just underscores the lack of really specificity and lack of consistency for businesses. And this is coming even as Moody's today slightly downgraded the U.S. credit rating. All of this, of course highlights the economic concerns, potential inflation concerns as the president is flying back to Washington right now.
TAPPER: And, Jeff, do you have any inkling of which countries might be able to get in-person meetings done and trade deals secured before these letters start going out from the White House?
ZELENY: It's a great question. Obviously, a lot of attention has been given to China. They have their own sort of temporary reprieve. And, of course, all of those 150 countries, some of them, the U.S. does very little trading with at all. So, there are some obviously that have a higher priorities than others, but the U.K. as well has a tentative agreement, a tentative agreement or at least close to a discussion has been happening with Vietnam, South Korea as well.
But, Jake, it's unclear. Again, this is yet one more example of the president sort of speaking without his advisers backing it up. And I can say at the end of this foreign trip, Jake, you covered many of them as a White House correspondent, there was not one single White House briefing or one single time, a cabinet official who traveled with the president, including the treasury secretary, who negotiates these actually spoke and answered questions. So, it's a bit unclear as we head into this weekend where exactly the tariff rollercoaster stands.
TAPPER: I do remember those trips. They are utterly exhausting.
Jeff Zeleny in Abu Dhabi, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Here at home, new consumer sentiment data revealing Americans are feeling even worse than anticipated about the state of the U.S. economy.
CNN's Allison Morrow is here. And, Allison, this is a pretty significant development.
ALLISON MORROW, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR WRITER: Yes, that's right. Jake. Americans are feeling anxious at the moment, and that is potentially really bad news for the economy. Because when people are feeling anxious about the economy, that means they spend less money.
So, two major data sets out this week that help illustrate that. This morning, we saw consumer sentiment from the University of Michigan survey, just the closely watched industry survey, showing that Americans haven't felt this bad about the economy since 2022, which was the peak kind of inflation era around COVID. So, we were coming out of the lockdowns and everything was so expensive and people were clearly very frustrated.
[18:05:03]
And, you know, what was interesting then is that consumers didn't stop spending. They felt really, really bad about the economy when they were asked about it, but then they kept spending as if they were pretty confident the economy was doing okay.
What we're seeing now is a different story. The other big data set we got this week was yesterday we saw consumer spending from the U.S. government data showing people are just spending less. Like in April, the spending year over year was flat, and that was after a huge increase in March when people were trying to get ahead of these tariffs, get ahead of the price rises that they're expecting to come.
So, now that things are kind of flattening out, we're seeing that sentiment actually inform people's behavior. Now, why does any of that matter? It's, of course, the U.S. economy is driven by U.S. consumer spending. So, when people are feeling anxious, they don't spend as much, the economy doesn't grow as much, and we could potentially see that turn into a recession.
We're not there yet, and most economists would say the chances of a recession right now are a coin flip. But when that consumer sentiment starts to decline and people stop spending money as much, it really does alarm economists and people who are monitoring this to make policy decisions.
TAPPER: All right. Allison Morrow, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Let's go and have Capitol Hill. President Trump's big, beautiful bill ran into a huge, big, maybe not so beautiful roadblock today, trillions of dollars in tax cuts, making it absolutely essential to his agenda.
CNN's Lauren Fox is joining me now. Lauren, tell us what happened. This bill didn't even get out of committee?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right, Jake. Despite the fact that a group of conservatives had been warning that they had deep concerns and reservations about voting for this in the budget committee, the chairman of that committee, Jodey Arrington, went ahead, held the hearing, and then held the vote. That's when we saw four Republican hardliners vote against it.
There was an additional Republican, Representative Smucker, who also voted no, but that was because it was a procedural move. It just gives you a sense of the fact that this is going to be a really tough climb for Johnson to get this bill off the House floor by the end of next week. And that was his really ambitious goal throughout this entire month, was to move this process forward, get this out of the House, and then put it into the Senate's lap.
Right now, there's a huge question mark on if that can happen. The budget committee is going to work over the weekend with these members, try to find some consensus, then convene again at 10:00 P.M. on Sunday night with the hope that by the time next week starts, this will be behind the House Republican Conference.
But, again, a lot of changes up ahead in this bill, and any change you make to satisfy these conservatives could upset some of your swing district Republicans. So, this is a really tenuous discussion right now happening with the House speaker.
TAPPER: And, Lauren, if this bill does manage to get through the House next week, and that's a big if, but this kind of thing usually happens, there's like a standoff and it's really ugly, and then they figure it out a few days later, but if it gets through the House, is it even guaranteed that it will pass the Senate?
FOX: Well, it's certainly not going to pass the Senate in its current form. And you are already seeing a number of Republicans who are voicing concerns about some of the changes to Medicaid. Senator Josh Hawley has been clear he doesn't like the direction that that's going. You also have Republicans like Ron Johnson, a conservative who says that this bill is just too expensive. He wants to see steeper spending cuts. And you can see how there are some huge divisions there, that if you make Ron Johnson happy, you might upset Josh Hawley over those Medicaid cuts. So, that is the tension in the Senate.
And, again, they are going to have to make some changes because they aren't completely satisfied with the House product either. I mean, the Ways and Means chairman in the House is a very different member than the Senate Finance Committee chairman. So, they both have very different views of the way that this tax bill should be moving forward. Jake?
TAPPER: All right. Lauren Fox, thank you so much.
And joining me now, Republican Congressman Marlin Stutzman from Indiana. He's a member of the House Budget Committee. It's good to have you here. Welcome to The Lead. Thank you so much.
I want to play a little bit of what happened today. This is Republican Congressman Chip Roy, one of the members who voted no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): This bill falls profoundly short. It does not do what we say it does with respect to deficits. We are writing checks we cannot cash. And our children are going to pay the price. So, I am a no on this bill unless serious reforms are made today, tomorrow, Sunday. We're having conversations as we speak, but something needs to change or you're not going to get my support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, is anything going to change so that Congressman Roy will offer his support?
REP. MARLIN STUTZMAN (R-IN): Yes, there will be a couple of changes. And I, you know, hope does get his support. I know they were actually very close. They were meeting next door with Leader Steve Scalise trying to get there.
[18:10:01]
It's going to probably take a manager's amendment in the Rules Committee after we pass it out of the Budget Committee.
But you know, a lot of it is, you know, as budget hawks, we would like the bill as it is, but there could have been more. And so it's --
TAPPER: More in terms of what, cuts, spending cuts?
STUTZMAN: Yes, bringing the savings closer instead of waiting until 2029 to enact able-bodied requirements in Medicaid, let's do them sooner. And so it's pieces like that. We want to get to the savings sooner because the longer we wait, the more we're going to have interest rates or interest applying to the debt.
And that's what we're all concerned about is the $36 trillion of debt and Medicaid and Medicare are the fastest growing programs. We've got to do something with our healthcare costs. That's the big problem that we're going to have to address at some point. It's not going to be in this bill, but in the long run we've got to deal with healthcare costs.
TAPPER: Some members of the Republican Party are angry that the vote was even called today before the negotiations with hardliners like Chip Roy were settled. President Trump even responded on Truth Social, quote, we don't need grandstands in the Republican Party. Stop talking, get it done. The fate of the bill is still uncertain in the Senate even, not to mention the House.
STUTZMAN: Right.
TAPPER: Is it at risk, this bill? What do you think is going to happen Sunday?
STUTZMAN: I don't think it's at risk. It's just a matter of working through it. It's a family conversation. We're trying to get -- you know, you got the SALT Caucus, the state and local tax, folks from states like New York, New Jersey, California, that they're concerned about that issue. But then you have those of us on the other side. And I voted yes for it today because we do have to move it ahead. And there's a timeline. We need to make sure that we get as much as we can, but at the same time, this is a good bill, but could we do more? I think we can, and that's what Chip Roy and others are holding out for. And I think over the weekend, there'll be some good movement in a manager's amendment that hopefully everybody can agree to.
TAPPER: Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee, a Republican, once said that nobody who's been to -- I'm paraphrasing, but something like nobody who's been to the Pentagon doesn't think that you could take a couple billion dollars out of their budget.
STUTZMAN: Right.
TAPPER: But this budget raises the Pentagon budget, right? I mean, is there not any savings to be had in there? I'm not saying I want a weak national defense, but if you don't think that as -- I mean, to paraphrase Fred Thompson, there's savings to be had.
STUTZMAN: No, I think there is. In fact, if you go back and look at the 2018 budget, it was around $650 billion, and now we're crossing that trillion dollar threshold. So, I'm -- as a budget hawk, and I'm a strong pro-defense member of Congress, but I do think that there could be savings, and I hope this administration -- you know, DOGE team has been working on a lot of facets of government. I hope we take DOGE through the Defense Department as well, because I know there's savings that could be had there.
TAPPER: New data out today show's consumer sentiment right now is at a near record low. I'm sure you're hearing about that from your constituents. Economists point to mainly the uncertainty around the tariffs. And we talk to business leaders every day on the show from coast to coast, people who like Trump, people don't like Trump, just people trying to get by and that's what we hear so much about in terms of these business leaders, the uncertainty. Even if the tariff is down from Chinese goods up from 145 percent to 30 percent, they don't -- they have no idea what's going to happen in a week or a month.
STUTZMAN: Right. Well, I mean, we had a hearing yesterday and talking a little bit about the volatility in the stock market because of the tariffs. There's not a good time to do the tariffs. There had to be a reset. I come from the Midwest, so manufacturing, agriculture, transportation are the big sectors in my area and I've seen this slow decline in the Midwest over time where there just aren't the good paying jobs that keep people in small town America.
And so I'm a big supporter of what Trump is doing with the reset. Is there a good time to do it? No, but the best time is to do it now. That way we can start resetting the table with our trading partners. Some of them are allies, others, like China, continues to be something -- we're just going to have to deal with them. And I think Trump, you know, going over to the Middle East and seeing what happened in the Middle East and all the investment that's coming back to the United States is going to be a huge boom for our economy.
When we get this tax or this big beautiful build passed, we continue to address spending and more investment coming into the United States. I think the economy's going to be strong in the next six months.
TAPPER: All right, Congressman Marlin Stutzman from the great state of Indiana, thanks so much for joining us today. I appreciate it.
STUTZMAN: Thank you. Good to be with you.
TAPPER: What the Department of Homeland Security is saying today about reports of a T.V. show pitch where immigrants would compete for a chance at U.S. citizenship.
Plus, the U.S. Secret Service interviewing former FBI Director James Comey right now after President Trump says Comey called for his assassination in his social media post that said 86 47. Those developments next.
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TAPPER: In our National Lead, the U.S. Supreme Court today blocked the Trump administration from moving forward with deportations using the 1798 John Adams-signed Alien Enemies Act. The ruling applies to a group of immigrants in Northern Texas specifically. The justices sent the case back to an appeals court to decide other underlying questions.
This is obviously not the end of this. President Trump reacted with the social media post complaining in caps, all caps, the Supreme Court won't allow us to get criminals out of our country.
Also today, the Department of Homeland Security confirmed it is requesting 20,000 National Guard members to help with immigration enforcement across the U.S. We discussed some of this with Border Czar Tom Homan yesterday. Under this plan, states would deputize their National Guard members under the appropriate immigration authorities so they can help with enforcement and deportations.
This has some political ramifications, of course, which is why our veteran political experts are here on this Friday evening. Meghan Hays, let me start with you. You work for the Biden administration. So, I spoke with Tom Homan. He blamed the need for more agents on sanctuary cities. These are largely Democratic-run cities and Democratic-run states, generally. He says that the rulings of sanctuary cities, the rules don't permit a single agent to arrest someone inside a jail, and instead they release undocumented detainees into the community.
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I want you to listen to what Mr. Homan had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, BORDER POLICY ADVISER: We got to send agents to the neighborhood. We got to send a whole team for officer safety reasons. So, we're going to increase agents in these cities. We're also going to increase work site enforcement in these cities because we can't arrest them in a jail, then we got to go to community and the work site to find these people. So, that's what we're going to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What's your response?
MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER BIDEN SPECIAL ASSISTANT: Look, I think that this is an excuse for them not running out of people to deport and doing it legally and using due process. So, I think that Tom Homan is looking for other excuses of where they can't find illegal immigrants and to do this illegally and to do things, you know, they were saying that they're deporting criminals and clearly they are now just going after people who are at work sites and stuff. So, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I think that the administration, this is a win for the Republican Party and the Trump administration, so they are going to do everything they can over and over again to continue this win because Democrats do not have a good response to this. People want people deported that are criminals. It's when you start going after people who are paying taxes here, who are here and have families born here, that there's a real problem, that that is when the messaging starts to turn. So, I think that they are trying to hold on to the win that they have right now.
TAPPER: What do you think?
ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: You know, I'm pretty conservative on this issue. My background's Homeland Security and I do understand 100 percent where you're going in regards to the second there are children being deported, that's when this all goes sideways, right.
But there was a major issue with this country no matter what, and I know you worked for Joe Biden, so I'm not personally criticizing, but there was a major criticism with -- or there was a major issue with them crossing the borders and we have to get them out. But there is a way to do it without being extreme.
However, the more Democrats die on this sword, especially in regards to the Venezuelans or whoever, Republicans love that. We'd love having that conversation for the ones that have done something, horrible crimes.
TAPPER: Right. I mean, Abrego Garcia, for example, even if he -- who knows what his MS-13 status actually is. I'm still not exactly sure. I hear arguments on both sides, but the wife beating is pretty undisputed, even if he never was tried for it. I mean, his wife -- there's evidence of his wife and I know Republicans, every time Democrats bring up Abrego Garcia, they think, keep bringing him up.
DAVIS: Please do.
HAYS: Well, it's a winning issue for Republicans. It's just -- it's a winning issue that the -- hands down a winning issue. And it also keeps the Trump administration from having to talk about the economy and having to talk about raising costs for working families.
So, the Democrats really need to hone in on the economy and stop talking about immigration and stop letting them flail around and just let them flail around and you focus on the economy.
TAPPER: So, let me ask you, Meghan, because -- I mean, Ashley, a Homeland Security Department spokesperson confirmed that they're in the vetting process for a reality T.V. show. The Wall Street Journal describes it as a show where immigrants compete for the possibility of U.S citizenship. DHS says the concept's not gotten approval yet. It's not done, like any suggestion that this is absolutely happening is wrong.
But, I mean, during the campaign, you might remember that, you know, Trump talked and I couldn't -- you know, you can never tell if he's joking or not with some of these things about like, you know, immigrants fighting each other. This is not that. This would be competing in reality show for citizenship.
But you worked for the Homeland Security Department during the George W. Bush administration. What do you make of this?
DAVIS: Well, first of all, I think it would be probably a very well- watched show, so I would think people would do it. But, listen, I take Homeland Security and when I was there, it was much different. It was -- obviously, people were trying to kill us every day. Not that they -- and so I don't think it's probably a good look for the Department of Homeland Security to take the reality show.
TAPPER: Who was in charge of shirt off or --
DAVIS: Ridge, yes. And, you know, we were actually originally White House Office of Homeland Security, you know, a month after 9/11. So, I mean, like, we were worried about shoe bombers, these plots and those plots. So, I kind of feel like it cheapens the agency.
TAPPER: Yes, that was a terrifying time. What do you think?
HAYS: Yes, I mean, I agree with you. I think it cheapens also our citizenship here. I think to be an American and to be a citizen here, it's a real honor and a real privilege. And our blue passports are worth something. And I think that when you cheapen it this way, I think it's just disgusting and gross.
But, again, they're really good about making T.V. shows and really good about the attention economy. So, it doesn't surprise me that it would be a good watch show.
TAPPER: I'm sure it would, yes, get a lot of ratings. I can't let either of you go without talking about James Comey's social media post. It goes on Instagram seashells arranged in the number is 8647. That is obviously 86, meaning get rid of 47, the 47th president, Donald Trump, President Trump says it's a call to assassinate him. Comey says he did not know that some people associate 86 with violence and we know that Comey's being interviewed right now by U.S. Secret Service agents what do you think? DAVIS: I'm going to get blown up for this, I'm sure, from the right. I don't think that he meant it, that the president should get assassinated. Obviously, this president had two assassination attempts. So, it's something that's a little bit more personal to him. I think it was poor taste. I don't think he meant like let's go shoot the president.
[18:25:01]
I think it was more like let him not be in office, if he did mean it. I don't believe that. He didn't know what it was, as the former, you know, head of the FBI, and he is paying the consequences. I mean, like there's going to be an investigation, it's going to be a bigger investigation because of who he was.
TAPPER: Tell me if I'm wrong, but like the Secret Service has to interview him, right? I mean, this isn't like fake outrage kind of thing. Like that's their job. Somebody --
HAYS: It was a threat.
TAPPER: Yes.
HAYS: I mean, this is an active threat. I think it -- I mean, we are here in a Trump administration number two because of Comey in 2016. So, he's no friend of Democrats, that's for sure. And this is so dumb and just so stupid to do. It does not make a lot of sense. I don't understand why you would do this. It does not make sense.
TAPPER: All right, let's 86 this panel. Thanks to both of you.
After interviews with President Biden, Special Counsel Robert Hur worried that a jury might find the president during a trial, quote, a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory, unquote. Could we soon hear the recordings of the Biden interview that led Hur to that conclusion? That's next.
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TAPPER: Our Politics Lead, new revelations in my upcoming book with Alex Thompson. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. It's on Biden's decline. It's called Original Sin. The book and excerpts and reviews and such have resurfaced the conversation about age and President Biden's aging. And there's been a lot of talk about the unreleased as yet audio of Biden's 2023 interviews with Special Counsel Robert Hur.
Those interviews among other factors led Hur and his team of prosecutors to conclude that while they thought Biden mishandled classified information, they couldn't successfully prosecute him because a jury would not convict, quote, a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory, unquote. They didn't think they could get a conviction.
Today, President Trump was asked whether he will release the audio of the tapes, which prior attorney general under Joe Biden, Merrick Garland, had blocked from release.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: That's up to Pam and the group. I haven't really looked into it. Look, everybody understands the condition of him. I know people that are 89, 90, 92, 93 years old that are literally perfect, but Joe was not one of them, and they did a lot of hiding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Fact check, true.
Joining us now is Samuel Moyn. He's professor of law and history at Yale University. So, Professor, after Biden's disastrous debate revealed to the world that there was something going on there last year, you penned an op-ed in The New York Times.
It was titled American's gerontocracy problem goes far beyond the president, and you write in that essay, which is great, by the way, people should go online and read it, in a society in which elderly people are treated as irrelevant and are subject to neglect, those of them holding authority have no incentive to hand over the reins, unquote.
And we write about this in the book, which is coming out on Tuesday, and you know this, it's not just Biden is perhaps the worst example in the history of humanity for this to have happened, but it's not just Biden who had a death grip on the reins, even though he probably should have hanged it up, so did his closest aide were there. And they went to great lengths, Biden, Hunter, Jill and then his top aides to conceal the extent of his decline. Why do you think they did that?
SAMUEL MOYN, PROFESSOR OF LAW AND HISTORY, YALE UNIVERSITY: Power. They depend on the senior man to give them access and to allow them to set policies. Biden's a flagrant example, and we've had so many wakeup calls, including now your book. But, you know, politicians who are suffering cognitive or physical decline in general really are our mouthpieces very often for those behind the throne, and those are staffers, like Diane Feinstein staffers, and so many other examples back decades.
TAPPER: You wrote that in addition to the presidency, our other two branches of federal government are outposts of what you call elder rule. And, in fact, I was thinking about this during the Conclave because I had learned that cardinals over the age of 80 were not allowed to participate since like 1970, just deemed like, okay, time for you guys to shuffle off. The younger pope, 79 and younger, will decide.
Why is our political system like this? I don't think that like there could have been a situation like this in the U.K. because of question time, because of the parliamentary system and people having competition right behind them in the party. Why is this -- it seems like such an American problem, these really, really old people that stay in office clinging to power long after they should have retired? MOYN: I think there are a lot of American particularities, Jake. But the truth is that half of humanity is living under an over 70 leader. And so, you know, we could worry about cognitive and physical decline once it sets in. But it's fascinating how Donald Trump is playing this, including in the clip you played in an interview last week, he said, Joe Biden is the worst thing that happened to old people because they're getting scapegoated for Biden's mistakes. And I think we should focus on those.
But I think we should also look kind of deeper because we have a Senate which is literally named after old men. We have another, if you like, council of elders in the Supreme Court. And by design, our judges can age until they die or choose fully on their own to retire. The founders considered whether to impose an age limit on judges because New York and some other states have those age limits on judges and indeed half of states today have those limits, but the Constitution didn't include those age limits, certainly not for judges, let alone presidents, senators, and representatives.
And so there are a lot of, I think, very specific reasons, like our politicians don't have to face the public, but there are also deep structural reasons because we have a gerontocracy in part because of legacies of the past and design features of our Constitution.
TAPPER: To be continued. We'll have you back, Professor Samuel Moyn. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your insights.
We're going to head to the Lone Star State next as part of our small business series. One mother-daughter company says the tariffs have been devastating for their business. So, what comes next for their shop?
Stay with us.
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TAPPER: We're back with our business leaders, our series where we talk with entrepreneurs from coast to coast about Trump's tariffs. Some have seen benefits, many are overwhelmed.
Joining us now, Amy Leinbach, the founder of Big Bee Little Bee in Austin, Texas, they create eco-friendly family products.
And, Amy, you and your daughter invent your own products. Can you tell us about the manufacturing process and what the impact of tariffs have been?
AMY LEINBACH, FOUNDER, BIG BEE LITTLE BEE: Of course. First, thank you so much for allowing me to come here and share our story and for amplifying the voices of other small business owners and Main Street Alliance members. It means the world to us.
So, we manufacture silicone products. All of our inventions are made of silicone and silicone manufacturing isn't available to us in the United States because of our relatively small size. So, we manufacture our products in China where they can accommodate smaller minimums. And for reference, we ship containers of inventory regularly. So, the definition of small might be a little bit broader than some might expect.
But because we do business in China right now, we are being absolutely crushed by not only the tariffs, but the chaos surrounding the tariffs, because we can't plan even for tomorrow for our business. We certainly can't plan to do business through the end of the year.
TAPPER: Have you had to pass on the cost of these tariffs to your consumers in order to handle it?
LEINBACH: We actually can't do that because our major competitors are enormous companies. For example, our silicone food storage container, the competitors for food storage are companies like Rubbermaid or Target's private brands. They set the ceiling for the selling price for items like ours. So, we don't have the ability to raise our selling price. We have no choice but to absorb those costs. And even 30 percent is so astronomically high when you're working with razor thin margins like we are.
TAPPER: Yes. I was just going to ask because some of the -- a lot of business people, small business people that we've talked to, have margins somewhere between 6 and 10 percent. And these tariffs basically just completely destroy that unless they raise their prices. That's the same.
LEINBACH: It's the same for us.
TAPPER: Yes. The tariffs on China have also been especially volatile, 145 percent to 30 percent, who knows where it's going to go next. What does that do for your ability to plan long-term? And I don't know if you had any hopes to expand your business. I assume you did. What about hoping to expand it?
LEINBACH: Yes. So expanding is out the window now. And if we're looking at just this past week alone, let's just go Friday, this past Friday, we were not able to place any orders because 145 percent just made trade impossible. So, we placed no orders only to find out that Monday, okay, 30 percent tariff for 90 days. So, we have to very, very, very quickly place some orders.
And I placed my orders and found out yesterday that our factory for our food containers cannot accommodate to fill a 40-foot container because the lead time is going to be so long right now and they don't want to put me at risk that the inventory might get stuck in China because it won't be able to ship out should it go back to 145 percent after the 90 days, so we are only going to fill a 20-foot container. And with a 20-foot container, we have absolutely no chance of even meeting our projections for this year. We will not make our sales numbers. So, while we were growing so big in the past two years, that's all come to a screeching halt.
TAPPER: What do you most want lawmakers and the Trump administration to do to help small businesses like yours right now so you don't get forced to go out of business?
LEINBACH: I really, really appreciate you asking that. Right now, our only hope is the Small Business Liberation Act, calling for tariff exemptions for small businesses. And we've been -- I've been working very closely with Senators Markey and Senator Schumer and we need this bill to pass.
We need more senators to stand behind it. Because without an exemption, we will never, ever have the chance to earn the money to even have a shot at building the infrastructure in the United States so we can manufacture here and therefore create jobs here.
[18:45:10]
But right now, we need that bill to pass or we will fold because big businesses fold over the course of years. Small businesses fold within months. And that's what we're staring down right now.
TAPPER: The business is Big Bee Little Bee, and the business owner Amy Leinbach, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time.
We'll be right back with some breaking news. The audiotape of the Robert Hur interview with Joe Biden has just been released.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: And we have that breaking news for you now. "Axios", specifically Marc Caputo and Alex Thompson, the reporters at "Axios", have just obtained the audiotapes from October 2023 containing former President Joe Biden's interviews with special counsel Robert Hur in his investigation into Biden's -- President Biden's mishandling of classified information.
These are the very interviews that largely were responsible for her to release the 2024 report, saying that while he believed Biden mishandled classified documents, he did not think a jury would convict him because the president came across as, quote, a sympathetic, well- meaning elderly man with a poor memory, a quote that caused the White House to explode with fury.
[18:50:07]
Let's get right to CNN's Evan Perez.
Evan, we are currently ingesting the audiotape, which just only broke a few minutes ago.
What is the importance of these tapes? Merrick Garland blocked them from being released. And Pam Bondi, the new attorney general, has released them.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT : Yeah, we've been anticipating this, Jake, because, look, we've all wanted to hear what the president sounded like because we know what Robert Hur described. We've you know, I've reviewed hundreds of pages of the of the transcripts of those interviews that were done over two days. You know, during the time when the when Robert Hur was doing this,
this investigation and when you look at the pages, right, you look at the transcript, you really it comes away. You come away with the idea that, you know, the president was absolutely had a foggy memory. He didn't remember key things.
Obviously, there was the one thing that really annoyed him, which was this question of whether he remembered when his son Beau died, right? That has been one of the big points of contention. And so, we at CNN, one of the things we did was we sued to obtain this audio because we wanted to hear what the president sounded like so that we could then make a decision on our own from hearing, you know, to see whether Robert Hur described the president's state of mind, very, very, very, you know, accurately.
And so, it's very interesting. And we want to hear what the president sounded like. And we should note that the president himself asserted executive privilege, which is what led the attorney general to refuse to release the audio. And so, the -- obviously now, the president of United States has decided that it is okay. President Biden -- President Trump has decided that it is okay for this to be heard.
And that is why the Justice Department and attorney general, Pam Bondi, have now released this. So again, we haven't heard this ourselves. "Axios" has now released this this audio. But its important, jake, for us to know exactly what how the president sounded in those in those interviews and how and why Robert Hur made those conclusions.
TAPPER: Yeah. And one of the things that's very clear, if you read the transcripts is that President Biden really was having significant trouble with dates.
We're ingesting the audio from "Axios" as we speak. We just got a sound bite.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Trump gets elected in November of 2017 -- 16, 2016. All right, so, I'd have 2017.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's when you left office, in January of 2017.
BIDEN: Okay. That's when Trump is sworn in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct, yeah. Correct.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: There's another section that were going to ingest in a second as well. When he's asked about when he moved from the vice president's residence to this Virginia facility in 2017, and he says, this is 2017, 2018. And Robert Hur says, yes. And president Biden says, remember, in this time frame, my son has either been deployed or is dying.
He's the one that brings up Beau Biden.
PEREZ: Right.
TAPPER: Beau Biden actually deployed, I think, around 2007, 2008. Beau Biden died in 2015. He's the one that has a complete lack of grasp of dates.
PEREZ: Right. Exactly. And you can hear a whisper from one of his attorneys who's in the room when those interviews are being done. Again, we've seen the transcript. You and I have read the transcript. What we hadn't -- what we haven't heard is the sound of the president's voice.
And again, what -- what was key for the prosecutors to decide that if you put him on the stand to answer questions about this, if he -- if they decided to bring charges against him, how would jurors perceive this, especially, you know, in a couple of years, right, again, from the time of this interview.
And that's the reason why Robert Hur made those conclusions about the president, what they thought the presidents state of mind was, or how he would present if they were to put him before a jury.
Again, it's very important for us to hear the president's voice and to hear exactly the way he kind of loses himself in those interviews. Theres another key part of this, Jake, that I think is interesting is you can hear in those interviews, you know, the banter he's trying to exchange with prosecutors you know, in that sort of Joe Biden way, right?
And you can see where he loses himself as he's trying to tell these stories or trying to recollect of how those classified documents came to be in his garage and in his office, where the -- where they were found and why that investigation began.
TAPPER: So, one of the other things that's important here, this is October 2023, and President Biden's deterioration is really starting strong this year.
[18:55:09]
He had been deteriorating bit by bit, but in 2023, it got really bad.
According to a top aides and people close to the president that we spoke with for our book, the failure of the plea agreement for Hunter, his son, Hunter, in the summer of 2023 was part of that. It really stressed him out and upset him so much because Hunter was talking about what this would do to him and how this was -- they were trying -- the Republicans were trying to drive him to relapse and drive him to commit suicide.
And President Biden -- and I say this sympathetically -- who had already lost two children and a wife and a -- wife and a child in 1972 and a car accident, and then his son Beau in 2015. President Biden legitimately had fear that his son, Hunter, was going to take his own life or overdose, and he was worried about losing a third child.
This is when the deterioration really starts.
PEREZ: Right.
TAPPER: And this is when the administration starts really sequestering him off from other people in the administration.
PEREZ: The other thing --
TAPPER: I'm sorry, I want to come to you, but Biden spokesperson just put out the statement, quote, the transcripts were released by the Biden administration more than a year ago. The audio does nothing but confirm what is already public.
Okay. I mean, nice try. That's -- you guys kept this from being released publicly. If it really was not a big deal, then you would have --
PEREZ: They didn't want this. They did not want this to come out before the election. That -- let's be honest, that's really -- that's the reason why this happened.
And look, one of the other things that I think is key to understanding this during this interview, the context, right, is that you remember this. He sat down for these interviews in October of when right after the attack by Hamas in Israel. And so, he had spent that entire time, obviously, on the phone and working long hours.
And so, the big question, of course, became that, you know, a president of his age and given what the stresses of what he was going through, should he have sat down, should that have been the time for him to sit down for several hours of interviews? And they do go over two days of interviews with prosecutors, with everything that they had on the line.
Clearly, Joe Biden thought that it was fine to do that. But clearly, you know, you can see from some of his answers that he does not have a handle on some of this. And so you could say, was it because of fatigue, or is it because of the things that that you write about in your book, Jake. And so that's the big -- I think, the big takeaway or big question that people will take away from listening to this audio.
TAPPER: Yeah. And the other thing that's I think, very important about the release of this audio is the fact that because the White House or I'm told we have another soundbite, lets, lets play this this is also from the Hur audio tapes, October 2023.
PEREZ: Yeah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I don't know. This is what, 2017, '18 area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir. BIDEN: Remember in this time frame my son is, he's been deployed or is
dying. And -- and so, it was -- and, by the way, there were still a lot of people at the time when I got out of the Senate that were encouraging me to run in this period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So that's what the part that I was talking about. He's not clear of dates. He's not clear on when Beau died, when Donald Trump won the presidency when he lived in Virginia.
And this is what Robert Hur heard and why it was so significant is so few people were able to have access to president Biden like this for hours at a time when he was showing this less than optimally functioning Joe Biden, his he would lose himself in trains of thought, stories that would meander and go on for, for ten minutes, forgetting names.
There's twice in this one interview he can't come up with the word fax machine. Somebody tells him once, and then, like a few minutes later, he again is not able to come up with the word fax machine.
And Robert Hur gets this view that so few people are getting, and then he tells the world what he saw, in February 2024. And honestly, the world is never the same.
PEREZ: And do you remember the White House pushed the Justice Department to remove those parts from Robert Hurs report, and they refused because they -- they had heard some of this and they knew that it was accurate what the special counsel had found, Jake.
TAPPER: Yeah, that's -- and they went to war with Robert Hur, the special counsel who was had difficulty finding work for months because of the kibosh put out by the White House and against their own attorney general, their own attorney general, Merrick Garland. They leaked to "Politico" that Garland wouldn't be invited back for a second Biden administration basically firing him, end date to come later.
I wish we could keep on going, but I only have the show for six more seconds.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.
Evan, thanks so much for popping up.
I'll see you Sunday morning on "STATE OF THE UNION".
