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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Makes Unsubstantiated Claims Of South Africa "Genocide"; Trump Meets With GOP Holdouts Amid Tax Bill Impasse; White House: Meeting With Johnson & Tax Bill Holdouts "Productive"; Rep. Brandon Gill, (R-TX), Is Interviewed About Tax Bill Holdouts; Rep. Mike Quigley, (D-IL), Is Interviewed About Tax Bill, "Original Sin"; Forensic Psychologist Testifies About Domestic Violence; Answering Your Questions About Prostate Health. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired May 21, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That pouch $100 bill that tested positive for cocaine and ketamine. He did also show the jury a handgun that was found in a suitcase soon after you entered Combs' property. That handgun he cut out of the evidence bag. He walked it in front of the jury, walked down to the whole stretch of the jury and back to show them this handgun that was seized, as well as about 50 rounds of ammunition. Pamela.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Kara Scannell, thank you so much.
And my colleague and friend, Jake Tapper is standing by --
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, buddy.
BROWN: -- for "The Lead." Hey, Jake. I know you have a lot coming up today.
TAPPER: We got a lot coming up. You just did a great job. You should -- you're good at this T.V. thing.
BROWN: You think so?
TAPPER: You should do more.
BROWN: Should I keep it up?
TAPPER: All right.
BROWN: All right.
TAPPER: Pamela, thanks so much.
BROWN: Thanks, Jake.
TAPPER: We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.
BROWN: Yes.
[17:00:44]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We begin with breaking news as two intense meetings unfolding at the White House make for one big bustling news fold day. First, President Donald Trump's one big beautiful bill could be in trouble ahead of a planned House vote today. So Trump just moments ago wrapped up a meeting with House Speaker Mike Johnson, plus members of his own party who do not want to vote for the legislation as it stands.
Cameras captured them all arriving at the White House after Johnson, Speaker Johnson, again pushed for taking a vote on the bill today. Remember, this bill extends and expands Trump's tax cuts from his first term. That's something that most Republicans are for. But the loss of that revenue means that the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says this bill would add $3.8 trillion to the U.S. deficit between 2026 and 2034. And it is that deficit increase that this group of Republican hardliners is taking issue with.
Then, of course, there is today's other big White House gathering, a bilateral Oval Office meeting with a world leader that got kind of heated. President Trump appeared to catch the president of South Africa off guard. He dramatically dimmed the lights and he played a video Trump says backs up claims of white genocide in South Africa. Right after that, a back and forth ensued as President Trump accused the South African president of doing nothing to stop white farmers from being killed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICA: Our government policy is completely, completely against what he was saying, even in the parliament.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But you do allow them to take land.
RAMAPHOSA: No, no, no.
TRUMP: You do allow them to take land.
RAMAPHOSA: Nobody can take (inaudible).
TRUMP: And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.
RAMAPHOSA: No, no. There is --
TRUMP: Nothing happens.
RAMAPHOSA: There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed, unfortunately, through criminal activity are not only white people, majority of them are black people.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Let's go straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins, who's at the White House for us, of course.
And Kaitlan, with the papers and the video, President Trump came to make this case.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. And if you're someone who's been talking to President Trump about what this visit was going to be like, this was not surprising because this is something the president has been talking about privately. He has shown these videos that they were shown inside the Oval Office today to people around him who have come and met with him and national security aides as well. So not exactly a surprise to them, but maybe certainly a surprise to the South African delegation who came into the Oval Office, Jake, for a meeting that started pleasantly enough, but very quickly descended into Zelenskyy territory, where essentially he was a bit ambushed inside the Oval Office with the president dimming the lights, as you noted, showing him these videos and confronting him over this.
They'd started out talking about golf, foreign policy and tariffs, the issues they were going to get into today. And then it was a reporter in the room who asked a question about the president's view of whether or not there was a genocide happening in South Africa that led to moments like this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAMAPHOSA: The government, and your government also has the right to expropriate land for public use.
TRUMP: And you're doing that.
RAMAPHOSA: And -- well, we've never really gotten underway with that, and we are going to be doing that.
TRUMP: No. You're taking -- you're taking people's land away --
RAMAPHOSA: We have -- we have not.
TRUMP: -- from them.
RAMAPHOSA: We have --
TRUMP: And those people, in many cases are being executed. They're being executed and they happen to be white and most of them happen to be farmers. And that's a tough situation. I don't know how you explain that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The president there, of course, was kind of largely dismissing what he was hearing from the South African leader as he was trying to push back or turning to different members of the delegation, including the Minister of Agriculture in South Africa, to speak to what they had been seeing playing out across the country, the president there having that opinion. But when he was later asked by a reporter, Jake, about whether or not he believed this was genocide, he seemed to say he had not made a conclusion on that. He had not come to a decision essentially on what that looked like.
I should note, you saw the two world leaders sitting side by side, as always with these Oval Office meetings. They are often packed with a lot of the president's cabinet and members of his West Wing team. Elon Musk was also there, standing just over the couch. And obviously he himself has been arguing on social media for over a year now, Jake, that he -- that white genocide is happening in South Africa. He was standing there.
[17:05:08]
He didn't weigh in a ton except to kind of murmur a few comments every now and then. The president said he was here to talk about Mars and sending rockets to there, but then was brought into this meeting with the South African leader.
I should note, Jake, as he was leaving though, he told reporters, including our colleague here at CNN, that he believed the meeting went well. It's not clear exactly what happened behind closed doors, though.
TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much. Tonight, Kaitlan is talking with Republican Congressmen Scott Perry and Dan Crenshaw about today's other big White House drama that's on Trump's tax and spending bill. Look for that on "The Source with Kaitlan Collins" tonight at 9:00 Eastern.
Let's bring in CNN's Larry Madowo who is in Nairobi, Kenya for us. What is the reaction to this meeting that took place in the Oval Office? What's the reaction in South Africa?
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, there's been bewilderment, astonishment in South Africa, but also some pride that President Ramaphosa kept his calm. He was diplomatic. And this is a skilled negotiator. President Ramaphosa was the chief negotiator for the ANC party of Nelson Mandela in the talks that ended apartheid. But nothing could have prepared him for this multimedia ambush, this four and a half video montage that showed these videos that in some cases taken out of context, this printout of debunks conspiracy theories but they did have an impact.
One of the people you saw in that video was Julius Malema. He is the leader of the far left party, the Economic Freedom Fighters. And he's the one that was singing in that video, kill the boar, kill the farmer. And he said a short while ago, "A group of older men met in Washington to gossip about me. No significant amount of intelligence evidence has been produced about white genocide. But we will not agree to compromise on our political principles on land expropriation without compensation for political expediency."
We have looked into those claims and we'll get to that in a second. But this moment has gotten a lot of traction in South Africa when the billionaire Johann Rupert said this to President Trump and to the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHANN RUPERT, SOUTH AFRICAN BUSINESSMAN: We have too many deaths. But it's across the board. It's not only white farmers, it's across the board. We need technological help. We need Starlink at every little police station.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: A bone there to Elon Musk, who was in that meeting. And that South Africans think was a patriotic way to deal with this, that a white South Africa and a successful one can say there's no evidence of white genocide because as the statistics show, out of 37 farm martyrs between April and December last year, there were only seven farmers who were affected. So we've looked into these claims, others have looked into them, they have found no evidence of it.
But Jake, one thing AfriForum, that is the white African lobby group, has told CNN this evening they're very happy with how this meeting turned out. That is a sign that the issues in South Africa cannot be swept under the table. But when we spoke to them on Tuesday before this Oval Office meeting, even they could not explicitly say that there's a white genocide in South Africa, Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Larry Madowo in Nairobi, Kenya, thanks so much.
Let's bring in CNN Special Correspondent Jamie Gangel and Clement Manyathela, a South African journalist who was in the Oval Office when that exchange played out. Thanks to both of you for being here.
So Clement, let me -- let me start with you. You say that your DC sources were right, that the Trump administration had a plan to, quote, "embarrass the president of South Africa." What did -- what did you make of today's meeting?
CLEMENT MANYATHELA, SOUTH AFRICAN JOURNALIST AND BROADCAST: So what happened today, Jake, was actually what I was told is exactly going to happen. I had a few meetings with some Republicans, even some Democrats this week as soon as I arrived in D.C. earlier this week. And they said we don't think President Cyril Ramaphosa actually knows what he's going to be walking into. He's going to be utterly embarrassed.
And as soon as I started hearing that, I spoke to the presidency's team and I was asking them how ready are you for any possibility of an embarrassment, of a dressing down, of a repeat of a Zelenskyy like moment. And they said, we're over prepared if we are going to confront a situation where we see a dressing down. We have a president who knows how to stay calm, a president who is a skilled negotiator and he's going to be able to handle that situation.
TAPPER: And -- so Clement alluded to the Zelenskyy meeting, obviously.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.
TAPPER: I wonder, it used to be the greatest thing a world leader could achieve or not the greatest thing, but one of a very desired --
GANGEL: Right.
TAPPER: -- thing would be an Oval Office meeting with the president of the United States. Cameras there, people wanted that.
GANGEL: Right.
TAPPER: And I wonder if Zelenskyy and then what happened today might make that less desired or at least more fraught.
GANGEL: At least now you have to be prepared, right? And I think he was. Look, this was an ambush. It was orchestrated. This is Donald Trump once again lecturing a foreign leader.
You just watch the body language. He was sort of tense, dismissive, cutting him off. But I will say the South African president, to your point, Clement, he did seem prepared. He was calm. He was almost friendly in tone.
[17:10:05]
He smiled. He was very measured. He kept his cool. I am guessing he saw what happened with Zelenskyy and he was prepared for it.
TAPPER: So police data from South Africa shows that between October and December last year, there were 12 people killed in farm attacks. One was a farmer, five were farm dwellers, four were employees. We don't know their race because South Africa doesn't release statistics based on race. What I heard from the South African leaders today was there is too much violence, there is too much murder. But it's not just whites, it's also blacks.
In fact, it's mostly blacks who are the victims of this. And one of the clips that Donald Trump -- that President Trump played was some very radical anti-white leaders, African -- no, Africans, not so -- I'm so used to saying African-American.
MANYATHELA: Yes.
TAPPER: African, black leaders saying horribly anti-white things. And the Minister of Agriculture, who is white and from an opposition party from the president said the whole reason we have this unity government is to keep, I'm paraphrasing, crazy people like that out of the government.
MANYATHELA: Yes. And -- because the suggestion or impression President Trump was trying to create is that this is what happens in South Africa. This is the kind of language that people use to address even white people. And President Cyril Ramaphosa tried to explain that that is a member of an opposition party. And in fact, I have come out to even condemn some of the language that has been used by other opposition leaders.
But it's always been like that. There are songs that are provocative, but that has never been endorsed by government, not once. In fact, President Cyril Ramaphosa and some of the members of his administration have come out to say these -- some of these songs, some of this kind of language is not welcomed in this post democratic South Africa.
TAPPER: Interesting.
MANYATHELA: Yes. So, and to your point about the statistics, in fact, the South African police sometimes do give us stats on race. And when you look at the statistics, most people who die from the farms are black people. But the impression that's been created by the right wing groups in South Africa is that there is, in fact, a crisis in as far as white farmers are concerned.
TAPPER: Yes.
MANYATHELA: But as you heard from that white minister who's the Minister of Agriculture, that's not really a genocide, it's a crime that affects black and white in South Africa.
TAPPER: Yes. I mean, one kill -- one murdered white farmer is one too many. But to put everything in context is important. Jamie, listen to one more clip from Trump in the Oval Office today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Elon happens to be from South Africa. This is what Elon wanted. He actually came here on a different subject, sending rockets to Mars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So Elon Musk, born in South Africa during apartheid, a very critical of the current South African government. How much do you think he's played a role in this?
GANGEL: I think Donald Trump said it, this is what he wanted.
TAPPER: Yes.
GANGEL: Meaning he -- you know, Donald Trump confronting the South African president. I also thought it was a little ironic that yesterday Elon Musk was saying he was sort of done with politics, was going back to his business. He was back in there today. We talk a lot about Trump loyalists playing to an audience of one. This clearly plays to Trump's base, but it also played to an audience of one today, and that was Elon Musk.
TAPPER: Elon Musk.
GANGEL: Yes.
TAPPER: And just to note what you referred to, Clement, the agriculture minister, white, said it affects all farmers in South Africa, particularly stock theft is disproportionate effect on smaller black farmers. And Johann Rupert, we have too many deaths, but it's across the board. It's not only white farmers. It's across the board.
Clement, so glad to have you here. Thank you so much.
MANYATHELA: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: Really appreciate it. Jamie Gangel, always a pleasure.
Coming up next, the other big White House meeting. Trump's meeting with Republican holdouts who called his tax and spending bill a no go. One House Republican one side of this debate is going to join me next.
[17:13:58]
The breaking news in the money lead helps their argument. Sharp drops into Dow, S&P and NASDAQ today over concerns about America's massive debt and how that big beautiful bill could theoretically exacerbate that debt. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're back with breaking news in our politics lead at the White House. President Trump just finished meeting with House Speaker Mike Johnson and some members of the House Freedom Caucus who have opposed parts of the president's so called big beautiful bill, tax cut and spending cut legislation that could be up for a full House vote this evening potentially. CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill for us.
And Lauren, the White House today said that failure to pass this bill would be, quote, "The ultimate betrayal," unquote. Do we know whether the president has been able to twist any arms of the holdouts?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, actually we just heard from House Speaker Mike Johnson as he arrived back on Capitol Hill. He said no final decision yet about vote timing but that they are still trying to decide if they're going to move forward tonight or tomorrow morning. But obviously the speaker indicating that he still wants to meet that ambitious deadline of passing the bill out of the House of Representatives before Memorial Day.
Now I'm standing outside of one of the conservative's office trying to understand whether or not their minds were changed in this White House meeting because obviously they are critical to whether or not this bill can get across the finish line in the next 24 hours. They have been very concerned about the fact that this bill does not have enough spending cuts. Meanwhile, if you start to change this bill in a major way to win conservative votes, there are questions about whether or not you start to lose some of those swing district Republicans that are also critical not just to getting this bill finished, but also for maintaining the Republican majority. And that is something that Johnson has been trying to underscore to his members over and over again.
Meanwhile, people who are ready to vote on this bill say at this point Johnson should just bring it to the floor. Here they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DAN MEUSER (R-PA): I think the speaker knows how to play the cards and he will do it, bring it to the floor at the time that he feels confident that it will pass, that the president feels confident that will pass and that will occur within the next 24 hours. I believe that. I hope that's the case.
[17:20:05]
REP. AUGUST PFLUGER (R-TX): I'm still optimistic. I think Mike Johnson has done a nice job to bring the different factions together. We've never claimed that this is a perfect bill, but it's a dadgum good bill and we need to move forward with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOX: And obviously things could go very late. If they decide to move forward on the floor tonight, you can expect that Democrats may try to put in some procedural hurdles over the next couple of hours. That means that they could be voting in the dead of night if they decide to move forward. It's also possible, of course, that they hold off until tomorrow. You vote when you have the votes.
Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Lauren Fox, thanks so much.
Let's bring in Republican Congressman Brandon Gill of Texas. Good to see you and congratulations. You just had a baby boy. Great news.
REP. BRANDON GILL (R-TX): Thank you.
TAPPER: Wonderful news. The most important thing that I will say today, congratulations to your baby boy.
So you --
GILL: Thank you.
TAPPER: -- you appear to be for this bill. You say slashing taxes on tips and overtime is a massive tax cut for working families, which is in the bill. What are you saying to some of your Republican colleagues who are against the bill right now? Do you think there's any way that they can come to any sort of agreement so that the bill will get passed today or this week?
GILL: Well, thanks for having me on. Every single Republican, regardless of which faction you're in knows that we absolutely have to get this bill done and the sooner the better. This is a massive piece of legislation. We're doing all kinds of things related to the border, military funding, energy, all kinds of things, as well as taxes, of course. So there are all kinds of details here that need to get ironed out.
This is all just part of the process. The meeting at the White House just ended. We'll see where that goes. But we're going to get this done and I think we'll get it done quickly.
TAPPER: A big hang up for the Republican hardliners right now is obviously concerns over raising the U.S. debt or the annual deficit or the overall debt. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says that the bill as it stands now will increase the budget deficit by $3.8 trillion between 2026 and 2034, $3.8 trillion. And today your colleague, Congressman Thomas Massie, responded to the White House insistence that the bill will not raise the deficit. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're saying it's deficit neutral.
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): No, that's a joke. That's a joke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That's Thomas Massie. I don't know if you could hear, he said, that's a joke. The idea that this is deficit neutral. Do you think this bill will add to the deficit?
GILL: No, I don't. And let me tell you about the CBO numbers that they put out. Those numbers are based on a 1.8 percent GDP growth rate that the -- that the CBO came up with. We think that that is far too low. It does not adequately take into account the dynamic feedback the economic growth that tax cuts create.
On the Budget Committee, we assumed a 2.6 percent GDP growth rate, which we believe is conservative, particularly given the deregulatory regime that the president has pushed through over the past few months. We believe that that number is historically rooted and under a 2.6 percent assumption. This bill actually reduces net deficits by over $170 billion over the next 10 years.
TAPPER: The tax cuts for households make up the bulk of the bill. But because rich households have higher taxable incomes, lowering rates by about the same size across the income brackets just definitionally means larger savings for the wealthy. A senior fellow at the center right think tank, the Manhattan Institute told the Washington Post that roughly 30 percent of the benefits of this bill would go to companies and people who earning more than $400,000 per year. Does that give you any pause at all?
GILL: No. And let me tell you what this bill also does is it provides funding for the border to secure our border, to fund deportations which helps our working class. The CBO even last year estimated that mass -- the mass importation of illegal aliens that we saw under the Biden administration reduces wages for working class workers. That's a problem. We're fixing that in this budget deal.
One other thing we're doing is we've seen estimates, outside estimates saying that this bill will increase take home income for your average family by $13,000. That's a huge win for the American people, regardless of which income bracket you're in. This is a good bill for our working class. It's a good bill for all Americans.
TAPPER: Congressman, before you go, what's the name of your little boy? GILL: Winston.
TAPPER: Winston.
GILL: Winston Joseph Gill.
TAPPER: Great name. Love it. Republican Congressman Brandon Gill of Texas, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
GILL: Thanks, Jake.
[17:24:37]
TAPPER: I'm going to get a Democrat side of this debate next. Plus, a key character in my new book, "Original Sin" with Alex Thompson about Joe Biden's cognitive decline and those who helped in its cover up. The congressman will be here to talk about it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Sticking with our politics lead, let's get a Democrats reaction to the tax cut and spending cut bill that House Republicans are desperately trying to cobble together on -- come together on and pass. Illinois Democratic Congressman Mike Quigley is here with us. He's on the House Appropriations Committee.
Is there anything that Democrats can do to stop this? Can you get enough Republican holdouts to prevent this bill from passing?
REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Yes. I tell my constituents I have my voice and my vote. And right now all I can do is make it as difficult as possible by drawing the conclusions that this bill has for my constituents and theirs. Medicaid. The fact that this absolutely will increase our national debt.
To think that the growth will be there is to forget basic economics and the Bush tax cuts and the first Trump tax cuts only raise the national debt and so will this. So, you know, pushing them to understand the basics of it, what it means to them. All I have is my voice.
TAPPER: Let's turn to the book because you are mentioned quite a bit in the new book I wrote with Alex Thompson, "Original Sin," about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and hide his diminished cognitive state. We did more than 200 interviews, mostly with Democratic insiders. Almost all of them were after the 2024 election.
[17:30:10]
You're mentioned in the book. You've traveled to Ireland with President Biden. And behind the scenes, you see a real diminished President Biden. You see him in front of the crowds and he's great and cheering and lively and energetic.
REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Parades beyond belief. TAPPER: Yes. And then behind the scenes, it's like the air going out of a balloon. And it reminded you of your -- of your dear departed father who passed from Parkinson's. Tell us -- tells us about that moment.
QUIGLEY: Yes, I mean, we -- we just had this moment where he met the President of Ireland and the whole tour was going extremely well. And the President was in great, great spirits. And it -- it reminded me this, this was my father who was suffering from Parkinson's later in life. You know, we'd have a family reunion and he'd be all charged up and, you know, he had that energy.
And you could -- you could hear his voice. And then when it was over, air came out of the balloon. Right after all of these events, when you saw the President of the United States, it was, unfortunately, the air going out of the balloon.
It was a whole different person. You could hardly hear him speak. He was -- he was, you know, breathy and movement of his eyes and very frail. So, you know, at that moment, you know, I'm with my friend, Brian Higgins from Buffalo.
TAPPER: Congressman from New York, yes.
QUIGLEY: Yes. And his -- his -- his father passed from a neurodegenerative disease. We actually felt the same thing in watching what the President was going through. And the -- the striking part of it is just how much it -- it -- no one lives in a vacuum. It's all very personal.
TAPPER: Yes.
QUIGLEY: This was no -- this was a tragedy that we saw, not just with our family, but with the President that we liked and respected. It's hard to watch.
TAPPER: And you felt like you couldn't say anything because it would just hurt President Biden. It wouldn't have any impact. And Democrats, when you ultimately, after the debate, when you started going public, they were -- they called you a traitor. They were pretty nasty.
QUIGLEY: Just appreciate that the fact at the time, part was due to COVID. We didn't have much interaction with the President. And then I'm firmly of the belief that he was cloistered by those closest to him.
So I would go a year without actually being close to the President of the United States. And it was a year to the State of the Union where he had a great performance. And then immediately afterwards, you saw the same reaction and -- and you felt how -- how frail he was.
So it was this point in time. And of course the debate performance, well, he can no longer hide it. This is affecting his performance. And clearly he couldn't do both. He couldn't be President of the United States and go through a vigorous campaign. And in talking to pollsters, we saw what it was going to do to the rest of the ticket, which was just this -- this massive red wave. You had to stand up and say something.
TAPPER: So I know the book as well as the release of the audio of the her -- the her interview with -- with the President last Friday has prompted a conversation among Democrats about what to do, what they need to acknowledge, if anything. We've heard Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer say, we're just looking forward.
But you during town halls earlier this year, experienced some real voter anger. And you think a lot of it is rooted in the gaslighting about -- about Biden.
QUIGLEY: I think we lost some of the trust of the public based on two things. I thought that the big mistake of the Biden administration was not to own up to what inflation was doing to most Americans. They just kept saying how great the economy was. Well, the economy was almost too good for its own self, right? It was supercharged, therefore driving inflation.
And they just wouldn't acknowledge that pain. And I think they lost some trust there. Then you couple it with basically what we were telling the American people was, don't believe your eyes. The President is fine, even after the debate.
And I think we lost a lot of that trust. So look, I was never doing this to disrespect the President. The greatest respect for President Biden, he did some great things. This was to face the reality of the situation. And to talk about it now is -- is not to re-up all that, it's just to acknowledge the mistake so we don't do it again.
TAPPER: Yes, I mean, the book and the story is a tragedy.
QUIGLEY: It is.
TAPPER: It's a tragedy. Congressman Quigley, always great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here and thank you for your candor. We really appreciate it.
QUIGLEY: Appreciate it.
[17:34:25]
TAPPER: Coming up next, the new powerful testimony today in the Sean "Diddy" Combs trial and the disturbing question in this case that's relatable to too many survivors of domestic violence. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Our Law and Justice Lead now. Today, the jury heard from three witnesses in the Sean "Diddy" Combs sex trafficking and racketeering trial, including former Combs executive assistant George Kaplan. He's now the 12th witness to take the stand. We should note that Combs has pleaded not guilty to all charges.
Following it all from inside court today is CNN chief -- CNN anchor and chief legal analyst, Laura Coates. Laura, during the jury's lunch break, there was a big question if Kaplan was actually going to end up testifying. What happened? Why is he important to the case?
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: The reason why was because he had a subpoena to testify. He's not there voluntarily or raising his hand saying, oh, pick me, pick me, as somebody to be a witness. And he believes he has a Fifth Amendment right against self- incrimination. Certainly everyone does.
So it suggested that perhaps if he were to testify without having some protection, some immunity, then he would be vulnerable to himself perhaps getting a criminal charge. He did not want that to happen. He came into the courtroom outside the presence of the jury, asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, and the judge allowed him to have an immunity order, which essentially says he is free to testify without the threat of having a criminal prosecution.
Now, of course, there are parameters for any immunity deal and having to testify truthfully. But so far, watching him in that courtroom, he seems particularly forthcoming, albeit very constrained in terms of his emotion. He does not want to be there voluntarily.
[17:40:03]
TAPPER: Laura, stick around because the -- the jury today also heard from a clinical and forensic psychologist not connected to anyone in this case who testified generally about domestic violence and trauma responses.
So I want to bring in someone else not connected, Dr. Andrea Bonior, a psychologist and professor of psychology at Georgetown University. Viewers might remember her helping to get us through COVID. During that troubling period, she would come on and talk about basically telling parents how to deal with their kids during that horrible, horrible time.
So Dr. Bonior, thanks for being here. So today, the prosecution's expert witness told the jury that one reason that victims remain in this abusive -- in abusive relationships is because of a, quote, trauma bond. Why would that make someone unwilling to -- to leave a harmful relationship? What's a trauma bond?
DR. ANDREA BONIOR, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Yes, I mean, a trauma bond has a couple of different components. And one of the big ones is that the status quo is this person having control over you. And so they're responsible for your safety. And a lot of times the fear of escalation leads to the idea that I'm safer even if I stay, even when I know that I'm not being treated well or that I'm being abused.
And often there's love there too. And I think that's hard for us to talk about, but this is someone that maybe is your world. Even when they're abusing you, they might be responsible for all of your self- worth.
COATES: Yes, and showing them.
TAPPER: So Monday, prosecutors showed the jury disturbing photos of bruises --
COATES: OK.
TAPPER: -- that Cassie Ventura claims were from alleged physical abuse by Combs. We've also seen the horrific hotel video, obviously, of Combs abusing Ventura, which Elizabeth Wagmeister broke last year.
Today's expert witness testified that, quote, as the abuse gets more severe, so do the coping mechanisms. A lot of people might have a difficult time understanding this. Help us -- help us understand.
BONIOR: Yes, well, you kind of have to justify staying, right? Let's say that you're terrified to leave because your family's been threatened. Maybe financially you have nowhere to go. Maybe you've been threatened really overtly that if you leave, you'll be killed.
We know from the data that women are often at their highest risk when they choose to leave an abusive relationship. So let's say you're terrified to go. In the meantime, you might be trying to make the most of it.
You might be trying to pacify the person. You might be trying to improve the way that they treat you. You might be trying to show them affection.
The other thing we don't talk about often is that sometimes people have such compassion. They think that they're a bad person. If they know, perhaps, that the person themselves that's abusing them has had a tough background or has been abused themselves, they say, well, I need to be more understanding. I need to be more empathetic.
And because I know this person's real story, I should have more sympathy for them and shouldn't hurt them further by leaving.
TAPPER: Does -- does the inability of some folks to understand this, you might hear somebody say, well, I would have left. If somebody laid a hand to me, I would have left. I wouldn't have tolerated. Or, well, obviously, they were getting a lot of money out of the deal, or they were getting something out of the deal.
Obviously, just to be clear, that's not what I think. Does that affect court cases like this?
BONIOR: It does, because it's part of the problem. When there is really a public opinion that these people are weak, or they're materialistic, or they're abusing the system, that leads to the further shame, and people are going to be scared to speak out.
People are very isolated, typically, when they're in the throes of an abusive relationship. And so knowing that if they try to tell a friend or family member, and that person might have that same reaction, knowing that, it's going to keep them silent and even further isolated and further in danger.
TAPPER: Laura, let me bring you back. As a former federal prosecutor, why would you want the jury to hear from someone like the shrink who testified, who is not directly involved with anyone in the case?
COATES: Because the word bias comes to mind anytime the defense wants you to believe that the person who's telling you a story, or a person who's relaying testimony, has some ax to grind. That they are here for a particular reason, not just to convey the truth. One of the things that they tried to get outright from the prosecution was that she was being paid by the hour, she said $600, by the day, $6,000.
The defense, however, wanted to suggest that she made the majority of her income by being a expert witness. And therefore, even though she wasn't paid, whether they got a guilty or a not guilty verdict, that she was always tailoring her responses to please the person that is paying her. Now, of course, the jury has to assess the credibility of any witness.
But you want, as a prosecutor, someone who doesn't know the facts, doesn't know the parties, doesn't have an ax to grind, no personal thing at stake, and instead, it's just giving you their general knowledge.
TAPPER: So, Laura, yesterday, the jury saw several photos of items found inside Sean "Diddy" Combs main bedroom closet during the raid, including weapons. What -- what argument are prosecutors trying to make here about those weapons?
COATES: Well, there were parts of AR-15, serial numbers taken off. There was a bag of bullets near a guard shack of some sort. There were 45 millimeter handguns as well. I think their premise of this is that, as a part of their overall RICO and enterprise, that violence was the status quo, that violence was par for the course, and therefore, these were instruments of that violence to suggest that people who were in the presence of or were aware of this person's power and their statue -- stature and their dynamic, that violence was not only expected, but could, in fact, be accomplished through these really lethal means.
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TAPPER: All right, Laura Coates, thank you so much. Dr. Andrea Bonior, glad to have you here. Good to see you again. Thanks for everything. Laura has been all over this case, of course. Look for more on her show, Laura Coates Live. It's tonight at 11:00 p.m. Eastern. She also has a great podcast. It's called Trial by Jury, and you can find that wherever you get your podcasts, Trial by Jury.
In our National Lead, two people have been arrested. They are accused of helping some of those inmates who escaped from that New Orleans jail. Cortnie Harris and Corvanntay Baptiste were booked on suspicion of being accessories after the fact. Police accused Baptiste of helping get food for an inmate while he was hiding. They accused Harris of being in contact with one of the escaped inmates before the jailbreak and transporting two of them to multiple locations in New Orleans. A manhunt is still underway for five of the 10 inmates who escaped from that New Orleans jail Friday.
Some of the many questions prompted by President Biden's recent prostate cancer diagnosis. We're paging Dr. Sanjay Gupta with answers to your questions. That's next.
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[17:50:43]
TAPPER: In our Health Lead, President Biden's prostate cancer diagnosis prompting not just prayers and well wishes for the former president, but questions about prostate cancer and how to test for it.
We are paging CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta to answer some of your questions. Many of you such as Sherry in New York wanted to know, why is the PSA test not recommended for men over 70?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, it's interesting, Jake, that the PSA test is actually quite contentious. Even major medical organizations don't always have the same point of view on this as to when to start or more importantly, perhaps stop the testing.
So the reason the -- the Preventative Services Task Force says stop at age 70 is because typically these prostate cancers tend to be slow growing. And the idea is that it may not grow fast enough to be a problem in your lifetime if you're already in your 70s. The other thing to keep in mind, Jake, is that the PSA test is not a perfect test.
Someone has an elevated PSA test and they get a biopsy, only 25 percent of the time, quarter of the time, will that be cancer. So, you know, getting the PSA testing may lead to a lot of unnecessary procedures and frankly, a lot of anxiety as well. So that's what's driving the thinking there.
TAPPER: Noel wrote in and asked, quote, my father had prostate cancer. Does this increase my risk of getting the disease?
GUPTA: Yes, yes. The short answer is -- is yes. There is a genetic component to prostate cancer. Not all cancers have a genetic component. Many brain tumors, for example, my area, there is not a genetic component.
But if your father had it, higher risk. If your brother had it, even a higher risk. Black men have a higher risk. And that also changes some of the recommendations on when to start getting your screenings.
TAPPER: Robert in Seattle asked, who should screen for prostate cancer and when?
GUPTA: So putting it all together, you know, all the various guidance, it -- it seems like the best time to start screening is age 50 and continue those screenings as long as you still feel like you have at least 10 years of life expectancy, which can be hard to know, admittedly. And that's why you talk to your doctor about it.
But again, as I just mentioned, if you have risk factors, such as genetics or -- or race, you want to start those screenings even earlier. TAPPER: And Jeff from Niceville, Florida sent us this question. Are there any dietary foods that can help reduce the risk of prostate cancer?
GUPTA: Yes, so this is really interesting. Let me -- let me preface by saying that there -- these studies about food and whether they may increase the risk of cancer or lower the risk of cancer are actually really hard to do, Jake. People may not remember what they had for lunch yesterday. So just -- just getting that -- that sort of data is hard.
Despite that though, when it comes to prostate cancer in particular, one of the things they focus on is folate. If you're getting plenty of folate in your diet, that should decrease your risk of cancer, talking about things like black beans or spinach or -- or a broccoli, for example. Those types of foods can help.
One thing I want to sort of emphasize though, and it's interesting with folate in particular, people often use the supplement folic acid as a substitute for that. That doesn't seem to work in terms of reducing your risk of prostate cancer.
So if you want to get prostate cancer reduction out of your food, you have to eat real food and preferably foods that are high in folate, Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always great to have you here. Thanks so much.
GUPTA: You got it.
TAPPER: In our National Lead, some stunning new details and images of exactly what caused a fire on board a FedEx cargo plane back in March. You might remember these images. Take a look. The NTSB said today that birds have been sucked into both of the plane's engines. The FedEx plane made a fiery landing at Newark Liberty International Airport. The pilots declared an emergency. They shut off one engine. They landed that plane, thankfully, without anyone getting hurt.
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Speaker Johnson started this day thinking he might get a full house vote sometime tonight on Trump's so-called big, beautiful bill, the tax cut and spending cut bill. A lot has happened since then, including a meeting at the White House with the Republican holdouts. CNN's Manu Raju just caught up with Speaker Johnson. He's back with a temperature check for us next.
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TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, is President Trump's massive policy bill in peril, the Republican holdout summoned to the White House this afternoon as party leaders push for a vote. What we're learning about the closed door meetings and whether any minds were changed. Plus, the other dramatic White House meeting today, a tense confrontation between President Trump and the president of South Africa. One of the journalists who was in the room joins us live in studio ahead.
Also, our small business series takes us to Maryland today where a veteran who started his company in his living room is now selling products in hundreds of other stores. Hear why he says the decision to make his products overseas is not about a lack of patriotism, it's about math.
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And push on, the reactions after the NFL voted against the whiny babies and the Green Bay Packers who wanted to ban the tush push and the other decisions made ahead of the upcoming season.
