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The Lead with Jake Tapper

DOJ In Talks With Ghislaine Maxwell About Potential Meeting; U.S. House Speaker Shuts Down Chamber To Block Epstein Vote; Top Economist Tells Powell To Resign To Protect Federal Reserve; China Bars U.S. Gov't Worker, Bank Employee From Leaving Country. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: And he said, you don't stop being an addict just because you stop using drugs. So I think his legacy is going to be that he embraced rock and roll to the fullest and he also embraced his family. So not just a wonderful musician, but also a beloved family man. I think that's going to be his legacy.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: A family man indeed. And we got a chance to see that. Lisa France, thanks very much. I really appreciate it.

FRANCE: Thank you.

HUNT: All right. Jake Tapper is standing by for The Lead. Hi, Jake.

Sorry. All right. I appreciate the tip. Have a great show.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Starts right now. The Justice Department today says it wants to speak with Ghislaine Maxwell, the once girlfriend and associate of pedophile and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. She is sitting in prison. Will she comply? Why would she tell the truth about the other men possibly connected to this scandal?

Plus, did the president, did President Trump just say too much what he revealed about a side deal as he bragged about the millions he's getting from his settlement with CBS and Paramount company parent and CBS and parent company Paramount and Ozzy Osbourne, as you just heard, known as the godfather of heavy metal royalty and reality TV is dead at age 76. We're going to take a look back at the legendary rocker ahead.

Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper and we're going to start in the Law and Justice Lead.

Under pressure from conservatives for initial attempts to peep who releasing all of the Jeffrey Epstein files the Justice Department today said is now reaching out to Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's former girlfriend and associate. She's serving a 20-year prison sentence for her role in trafficking minor girls for Epstein.

The president was asked about this announcement by the Justice Department earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be sounds appropriate to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What might Maxwell tell the feds about other men possibly involved in their decades old sleazy illegal operation? And what will be President Trump's role in finally bringing some semblance of justice to Epstein's hundreds of victims? That's the big question.

You may recall that also under pressure from his MAGA base, President Trump asked the Justice Department last week to seek a judge's permission to release pertinent grand jury transcripts involving Epstein and Maxwell.

They Epstein and Maxwell have been the only two people to face any legal consequences for these vile and disgusting crimes. From the very beginning of this sordid affair, the fix has been in to protect the powerful at the expense of Epstein's victims.

For example, the investigation started in 2005, when a woman reported that her high school age stepdaughter received 300 bucks in exchange for sexual activity at Epstein's Palm Beach mansion. Another teen in that investigation described recruiting other young girls for sexual activity with Epstein.

Now, when police raided Epstein's Palm Beach Mansion in 2005, somebody had already tipped Epstein off, as the Florida detective who executed the search warrant told Miami Herald reporter Julie K. Brown for her book "Perversion of Justice" quote, six computer hard drives in the house had been hastily removed, leaving dangling wires attached to monitors in several areas of the house.

Now, despite dozens of Epstein's victims being willing to testify about the heinous crimes Epstein committed, including multiple counts of statutory rape with girls as young as 14, Epstein facing a possible sentence of 10 years in prison to life.

Regardless of that, in 2008, he entered into a sweetheart deal with the federal government. He pleaded guilty to just two charges, procuring a person under 18 for prostitution and solicitation of prostitution. State charges, not federal charges.

And that deal came under U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida, Alex Acosta, who would later serve as Trump's very first secretary of labor. Epstein spent only 13 months in jail for that conviction, spending at times 12 hours a day on work release, returning to his life of luxury when it was over. As for the victims, when going to police didn't work, many sought to sue him with civil lawsuits.

Now, one of those victims included a woman whose name you've heard, Virginia Giuffre. Virginia Giuffre accused Epstein and Maxwell of raping her as a teen, grooming her to have sex with several powerful men. In 2015, in a sworn affidavit, Giuffre said, quote, Epstein made me have sex with Prince Andrew several times, unquote. Now, Prince Andrew would go on to settle a lawsuit with Giuffre in 2022. He denies allegations against him.

[17:05:05]

Giuffre said that Epstein once told her that he had, quote, pretty 12 year old girls flown in for his birthday from France. A surprise birthday gift from one of his friends. Absolutely vile.

In 2018, Brown, Julie Brown in the Miami Herald published a series of stories. And finally came an attempt at justice. A new on July 6, 2019, under the Trump administration, Jeffrey Epstein was arrested and charged with sex trafficking in Florida and New York, led by U.S. attorney of the Southern District of New York, Geoffrey Berman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEOFFREY BERMAN, U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YOR: There are dozens of victims as allegedly indictment in New York and dozens in Florida, and it maintained itself over several years. So this is very significant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, two weeks after Epstein's arrest, Alex Acosta, then the Secretary of Labor for President Trump and the guy who got the sweetheart deal for Epstein, Acosta resigned, facing mounting questions about why Epstein did not face more significant charges 13 years earlier, and not even a month after Epstein's arrest, the pedophile and sex trafficker would be found dead in his New York jail cell. The medical examiner ruled it a suicide.

There's still so much we do not know about this scandal, including who were the other men who were part of this vile enterprise and why have only two people ever been charged? Is President Trump going to finally help bring justice to Epstein's victims, or will he be part of this continued effort to protect child predators? Let's bring in CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez.

Evan, on the Justice Department's plan to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, Donald Trump's former personal attorney, now the deputy attorney general, saying he's going to do a Todd Blanche. She is serving a 20- year prison sentence, Ghislaine Maxwell, for conspiring with Epstein to sexually abuse minors. She was also charged with perjury, though not convicted of it. How credible is she?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the credibility and whether she has an incentive to testify or provide certain information to help the president in exchange, perhaps for a pardon or a commutation. That's all now part of this conversation. Right. And you see people even like Laura Loomer raising the question of why wasn't this done earlier, before you made --

TAPPER: Talking to Maxwell, you mean?

PEREZ: Right, talking to Maxwell. If you really wanted to know and you believe she had information that was important here, why didn't you do that before you decided, now, two and a half weeks ago to say, declare this to be a shut case and no more information is coming out. So those are the important questions that are now being raised about this.

And of course, one of the other things you need to consider is that the deputy attorney general's tweet this morning announcing this effort to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell comes really after pressure from House Republicans. They were subpoenaing her. They want to talk to her. And so the Justice Department needs to find a way to stay in control of whatever Ghislaine Maxwell is going to tell Republicans she want. They want to make sure they know what it is she has to say.

TAPPER: And of course, they could unseal everything if they wanted to, right, including all those civil cases --

PEREZ: On what bigger body of evidence.

TAPPER: And you keep going to these small little places that I don't think there's going to be much there. I mean, if Ghislaine Maxwell had stuff to say, surely she would have said it to prevent herself from going to jail for 20 years.

PEREZ: Right. You got it.

TAPPER: Also today, a federal judge responded to the Justice Department's request to unseal the pertinent grand jury testimony related to both Epstein and Maxwell's cases. What is the judge asking?

PEREZ: Well, the judge has set a couple of deadlines, is asking for more information, exactly what it is you want to disclose. Just a little while ago, Kara Scannell trained (ph) from Maxwell's attorney, he wrote a letter to the judge saying that he, similarly, they want to review any grand jury transcripts that are of issue. They say they haven't had a chance to see it has not been produced to the defense in this case and they want to know what position to take in court.

For now, they're opposing releasing any transcripts. And again, you know, she has, you know, something here that is of value. We'll see whether the Trump White House views it as valuable as well.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thanks so much as always. For reaction from the White House, let's go to CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes. Kristen, how is President Trump reacting to all these developments?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, nothing has really changed in terms of President Trump's reaction between today and yesterday other than the fact that he can't get away from the story fast enough.

President Trump has tried to avoid having any conversations talking about the Epstein files at length in any way. And earlier today, he was sitting next to the Filipino president, was asked specifically about the Department of Justice meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be sounds appropriate to do.

[17:10:00]

I didn't know that they were going to do it. I don't really follow that too much. It's sort of a witch hunt. Just a continuation of the witch hunt. The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold. They tried to rig the election, and they got caught. And there should be very severe consequences for that. After what they did to me, and whether it's right or wrong, it's time to go after people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Now, there's a couple of things to say here. One is, you can see how quickly he pivoted away from Epstein. I am told that in public and in private, he doesn't understand why he has to keep talking about this. Now, on the other side of that, just to clearly note here, he's referring to documents that Tulsi Gabbard, the head of his National Intelligence Agency, released that essentially say, or she says, the findings are that they manufactured the notion that Obama and his and people who work for his administration manufactured the notion that Russia had interfered with the 2016 election.

We have talked to a number of sources. They have all said that this is a conflation of the intelligence at the time and a misreading of the intelligence at the time. So just to make that clear.

But what I want to point to is the fact that President Trump can't seem to get away from this story. And one of the things that make this story so unique is it puts President Trump in the White House in a position that they don't often find themselves in, which is on the defensive. They are constantly trying to react in this sense. President Trump does best when he's on the offensive. And that's not where they've been at this story at all.

And one of the things we saw at the end of last week with that Wall Street Journal story about the alleged birthday book and the Wall Street Journal and President Trump suing the Wall Street Journal, which is sort of to see some of these MAGA loyalists who have been speaking out against the president start to come around him, to circle around him, to give him support, you know, a common enemy. Right. They love hitting the media.

But the real point of that is that those same people are now backing away again because they want more information and they want more transparency. And we heard from Laura Loomer, who at one point said today to our colleague Alayna Treene, why didn't they have a meeting with Maxwell before they put out the memo? And that's a question we're hearing from a lot of Republicans.

TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes at The White House, thanks so much. Let's discuss all this with CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. Elie, how realistic is it that Ghislaine Maxwell will take the stand and testify, giving more information about who got away with it?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIRO LEGAL ANALYST: I'm decidedly skeptical here, Jake. I think the odds of her becoming a full and proper, fully vetted, fully credible DOJ cooperating witness are extremely remote because two things have to happen in order for that to come to be.

First of all, Ghislaine Maxwell has to have a complete turnaround from everything she's ever done in her whole life. She spent the majority of her adult life committing heinous crimes. She went through a whole prosecution for four years, never said a peep to any authority about anything.

In fact, when she was asked under oath, she lied. She said, oh, I don't know anything about Jeffrey Epstein and child sex trafficking.

In addition to that, DOJ prosecutors have to get to a point where they are satisfied Ghislaine Maxwell is telling them everything she knows about everything wrong that everybody has ever done, that she's pulling no punches. DOJ has to get to a point where they are willing to give her a substantial break from her 20-year sentence to embrace her, to align themselves with her and then to indict and then to call her to the stand in a trial.

Look, I'm not, you know, soft hearted when it comes to cooperators. I cooperated some really bad people, but the notion of banking a case on Ghislaine Maxwell would keep me up at nights.

TAPPER: John, some conservative Republicans, along with some Democrats are calling for the release of all the Epstein files. As someone who once worked at the FBI, how might that process play out?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALST: Well, first of all, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what is an FBI file. You know, in a case like the Epstein case, there isn't, you know, five bankers boxes full of folders. Files in the FBI are maintained in a system called Sentinel. It is an electronic case management system, a vast computer network where whoever is authorized to look into that case, because they are the case agent or part of that squad, can get into that case and read through it.

That's every 302, meaning every recounting of every interview conducted in the course of the case, which in a case like this could be hundreds. It means every search warrant, every return on a search warrant, every subpoena, everything, all that is in there, it could be thousands of pages.

So, when the Attorney General said, you know, the file's on my desk, and we're going to release it, I think they meant the highlights. And when the bloggers went nuts, saying there's nothing new here that satisfies any of our conspiracy theories, she demanded that the entire file be sent over by Friday morning, meaning the next day.

Now, what really happened was they put together a huge team of Justice Department and FBI people to go through those files and to follow Justice Department policy.

[17:15:00]

Redactions of victim names, redactions of underage people's names, redactions of sex crimes victims' names, redactions of witnesses' names, redactions of uncharged parties who were not suspects in the case, whose names surfaced and when they were done with that process and finally the Justice Department had an idea of what was really in the FBI records of the Epstein case.

They released a joint statement saying he wasn't murdered in prison, there was no conspiracy, there is no clients list, and we're never going to say anything about this again. That, of course, just spurred more conspiracy theories.

TAPPER: Yes.

MILLER: So you have to ask yourself what is in there that is so concerning that they don't want to let it out?

TAPPER: Yes.

MILLER: Is it they over promised and the answer is nothing? Or is there some smoking gun in there that scares them?

TAPPER: Well, I think one of the questions is the uncharged individuals. Whether they were uncharged because there wasn't enough to get them on, or uncharged for some other reason. Elie, let me ask you. Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General, says that the outreach he's making to Ghislaine Maxwell is at the direction of the Attorney General, Pam Bondi.

In a statement today, he said, quote, until now, no administration on behalf of the department had inquired about her willingness to meet with the government. That changes now. Now, let me just observe about Pam Bondi. She was the Attorney General of Florida from 2011 until 2019.

Now, that's after the sweetheart plea deal, but it is also still a period when she could have taken any number of actions to try to bring justice for Epstein's victims or go after any of the other individuals involved, including Ghislaine Maxwell. He lived in Palm Beach. Most of this horrible stuff that happened in either Palm Beach, Manhattan or the Virgin Islands. Did then-Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi do anything on the Epstein case to bring justice to the victims?

HONIG: Zero, Jake. And the history is really important here. Jeffrey Epstein got that inexcusable sweetheart deal from Alexandra Acosta in 2007, 2008. The victims in that case, dozens, were horribly mistreated. Not only were they not listened to, they were actually lied to.

At one point, the Fed sent a letter to the victims saying the case is still pending when they had already reached a deal with Jeffrey Epstein. Now, fast forward to 2011. Pam Bondi becomes state AG for the next eight years. While she's state AG, there is nothing at all preventing her from meeting with those victims, from talking to them, from investigating based on what they had to say. And all records are she did absolutely nothing.

And I'd add, by the way, even in her five, six months now as United States Attorney General, up until two weeks ago, three weeks ago, as John Miller just said, her position was nothing to see here. Case closed. Now that has suddenly turned 180 given the shifting political winds. But up until a few days ago, she had no interest in any of this.

TAPPER: All right, Elie Honig, John --

MILLER: Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, go ahead, John.

MILLER: One thing you got to point out.

TAPPER: Yes.

MILLER: And I ask this to Elie Honig. In the entire history of the United States and its Department of Justice, as a former prosecutor, have you ever heard of the Deputy Attorney General of the United States going to a prison to personally interview the subject of a closed case?

HONIG: Yes, it's preposterous to think about that. It is a bizarre allocation of resources. It's actually dangerous, not physically, but dangerous politically for Todd Blanche to do that. I mean Todd Blanche and I were both SDNY prosecutors. Together we both sat through countless proffers, meetings with potential cooperators. But were 32- year-old line assistants.

The notion of the number two person in the entire Justice Department flying into a prison and meeting with an explosive potential cooperator like Maxwell is completely unprecedented.

TAPPER: Let me just also observe that Todd Blanche, before he had his current job, was President Trump's personal attorney.

MILLER: Nothing to see here.

TAPPER: Yes. John Miller, Elie Honig, thanks to both you. Appreciate it. Coming up, the demands on Capitol Hill to see more Epstein evidence. House Speaker Mike Johnson is defending his decision to delay a vote to release all the files, despite bipartisan calls to get more information released.

Plus, why the Chinese government has banned a Wells Fargo banker from leaving China. And she's not the first person with U.S. ties who now has restricted travel. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:23:14]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead today, House Speaker Mike Johnson defended his decision to delay a vote calling for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files until after Congress's August recess. That delay comes despite bipartisan efforts to have everything released. Here is Speaker Johnson earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: The President has said clearly and he has now ordered his DOJ to do what it is we've all needed DOJ to do for years now and that is to get everything released. So they're in the process of that. There's no purpose for Congress to push an administration to do something that they're already doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now to be clear, the Justice Department is only seeking the release of Epstein and Maxwell grand jury testimony, pertinent sections which the judge has agreed to do. A judge has to agree to do.

Despite what Speaker Johnson claimed though, the Justice Department is not in the process of getting, quote, everything released. Even if that grand jury testimony does come to light, that information is really unlikely to include everything the FBI and the Justice Department know about Epstein, his autopsy, his financial transactions, his many friends who maybe took advantage of these girls. Leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

Joining us now to discuss is Republican Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas. Congressman, it's really doubtful that this issue is going to go away in a month. Do you think it's a mistake not to have a full vote calling for the full Epstein files to be released obviously with redactions of the victims' names and such?

REP. PETE SESSIONS (R-TX): Jake, thank you. I believe it's fair to say that virtually every member of Congress believes that there should be disclosure. Exactly what that disclosure is, how deep it goes. I think that the Department of Justice needs to be prepared to do it.

[17:25:00]

I think from all accounts I've seen the attorney general has that authority and responsibility and I believe that they are winding their way to making that decision. If you want to get to whether it's today or tomorrow or September, I think it's not going to go away. I think that they're going to have to come up with a process whereby they will not only comply with normal people's viewpoint about what disclosure means, but release that and get it out. And it's better to do it quickly because none of us are for child exploitation and that's exactly what this was.

TAPPER: So as you know, the most important thing is justice for these victims of child exploitation and also just and young women who were of age but also coerced into sex trafficking. There's also obviously accountability for any of the predators. But then there's the political ramifications. And your colleague, Congressman Tom Massie of Kentucky, he warns that this could potentially hurt your party. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM MASSIE (R-KY): Well, you don't lose your base over one single thing. But he's eroding his base. More importantly, if we don't take the right side of this issue, it's going to cost us votes in the midterms.

Why would they go vote if they gave us the House, the Senate and the White House and the transparency and justice they were promised doesn't happen?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you agree, sir?

SESSIONS: Well, what I would say in fairness to Mr. Massie is that almost all of my colleagues, Republican and Democrat, are for the release of this information. I think the next question is how will that takes take place? Will there be hearings? Will there be a public release?

There's going to have to be some real thinking about getting the right thing done. But no, I don't believe it's just a matter of Republicans are trying to block anything. I think it's a matter of how do you go about releasing this and what is really the responsibility that we have to understand and to get this information. I think cooler heads can prevail and will.

TAPPER: Let's go to Texas, your home state. The Texas state legislature is having their special session. One of the top items on the agenda is to address flooding preparedness following that horrible deadly July 4th flood incident in central Texas, the floods that killed at least 135 people, dozens of them children.

What steps would you like to see taken by Texas government, the Texas government, to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again?

SESSIONS: Yes, well, first of all, I think the important thing is that Governor Abbott and the legislature is doing this and that is that they're going to go on site out to Kerrville. They're going to walk through and do the things that some of us have done, but they're going to talk specifically to the decision makers about the errors that took place or the omissions, what was not known, what needed to be known. And the state of Texas and Kerr County have the authority and the responsibility to do this.

First of all, the governor has money that he could decide he will help in this endeavor. But it needs to be a hearing that's fully vetted, that's open to the public, where people know what the decision is. I think they're doing that right now.

TAPPER: The Texas state legislature is also considering redrawing your congressional maps to boot out as many as five House Democrats and give House Republicans five more seats. Sources tell CNN Democrats are plotting retaliatory redistricting efforts in California, Washington State, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York. Do you worry at all that this is just going to become a free for all

where there are no independent commissions that make congressional seats? I mean, where does this end?

SESSIONS: Well, in fact, there is a discussion there about these independent commissions. It's about 90 percent to 10 in California right now that the independent commission decided on. Texas has seen where there and no one's disputed, a huge rise in the amount of people who see economic freedom and development through the crystal of who vote, who they elect and the Texas economy. The Texas people of Texas want and need jobs and more jobs.

And so we believe that it is matching up with what people would want, and that is people who would come to Washington and vote for the stability of the economy and less spending.

TAPPER: So you're in favor of these redistricting efforts that allow whichever party controls the state to basically the politicians pick their voters instead of the other way around?

SESSIONS: Well, what I have said and what I believe in that is the federal law, Supreme Court has indicated that a state decides those options. But when a state does choose those options, they cannot make decisions that would hinder or put someone in a diminished position.

[17:30:05]

But I think that this last vote, as it went across the entire country and many Democrat areas, it went wildly in favor of Republicans or President Trump. So I believe that we can sustain what we're doing for the right reasons, and it is about control of the House of Representatives, but it is about Texas having the choice -- the choice of what direction they'd like to go, and that is more jobs, less spending, and a brighter future.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas, thank you so much, sir.

Today, President Trump again complained about Jerome Powell, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, saying that Powell's doing a bad job. He stopped short again of calling for his resignation. One prominent -- prominent economist has an opinion why he says it's time for Powell to leave. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:35:03]

TAPPER: Our Money Lead now, President Trump stoking the fires of his fury at Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell once again this afternoon for not lowering interest rates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He still laid all the time, he should lowered interest rates many times. Europe lowered their rate 10 times. We lowered ours none.

People aren't able to buy a house because this guy is a numbskull. He keeps the rates too high and probably doing it for political reasons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: President Trump did acknowledge that Powell has eight months left in his term, but prominently economist Mohamed El-Erian is now calling for Powell to consider exiting sooner. He spoke with CNN's Richard Quest just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED EL-ERIAN, FORMER PIMCO CEO: I worry that if Fed Chair Powell stays in position, we will see the attacks not on him personally, but expand to include more and more of the Fed's operations and ultimately that will undermine central bank independence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining us now to discuss Princeton University economics professor Alan Blinder, former vice chair of the Federal Reserve and member of President Bill Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers. Professor, thanks for joining us. So as we know, Jerome Powell is still in fact, as of right now, the Fed chair, despite a fake letter of resignation that Republican Senator Mike Lee and some MAGA influencers were circulating. Lee then deleted it from his social media today. Do you think that Fed chair Powell should step down in order to preserve the independence of the Federal Reserve, as we just heard suggested?

ALAN S. BLINDER, FORMER VICE CHAIR, FEDERAL RESERVE: Definitely not. That gets it exactly backwards. The worst thing he could do from the point of view of preserving the independence of the Fed would be to step down for this reason. You know, it's one thing if he has a health problem or something like that, but he doesn't. He's very fit and perfectly capable to keep on going. And if he quits now under this kind of pressure, there goes the independence of the Fed.

TAPPER: As you know, the decision to cut interest rates is not on Jerome Powell or any Fed chair alone. It belongs to the Federal Open Market Committee. Do you think the President has reason to believe that the committee would be more open to lowering interest rates without Powell in the picture?

BLINDER: No, I actually think the opposite. I think if he actually would manage to fire Powell, which is probably illegal and he can't do it, but suppose that it happened, there would be such a reaction on the Federal Open Market Committee that it would be harder and harder to get them to cut interest rates.

TAPPER: And as you know, he has said that he probably -- they probably would have voted to lower interest rates if it weren't for the instability created by President Trump's tariffs. The committee's meeting next week, Powell said after the last meeting, the door was still open for a rate cut later this year, depending on economic conditions surrounding global trade. Do you think we could see interest rates fall next week or do you think it's more likely to be in September?

BLINDER: I think next week would be a very big surprise. And given this flare up right now, a really, really big surprise. I think it comes later if indeed it comes this year. It's a reasonable bet that it'll come sometime this year, but not next week.

TAPPER: Do you think President Trump's push for interest rates to be lower and his continued attacks on the Fed chair actually works against what he wants? In other words, is there anything in being on the Federal Reserve where a President is jawboning and insulting you and in order to show that you are independent, you actually don't do what he's saying?

BLINDER: I think that's right. A little bit. I mean, mainly Powell and his committee members are going to do what they think is right for the economy. But at the margin, rather than look like they're getting bullied by the White House when they shouldn't be, they -- they may stiffen their backs.

TAPPER: Yes, we're all human after all. Trump's push to lower interest rates comes --

BLINDER: Yes.

TAPPER: Yes, it comes weeks after he signed that domestic economic bill into law, the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. On July 4th, the Congressional Budget Office finds that this final legislation could add more than $3 trillion to the deficit over the next decade by continuing the tax cuts and such. Will lowering interest rates help ease some of the economic strain that might hit the government budget over the next decade? Or does the U.S. need to be doing much more?

BLINDER: I think it's the opposite. I think what's happened in this beautiful -- beautiful, I laugh, bill is mainly raising the annual deficits, and that tends to push interest rates up. I don't want to exaggerate it. It's not going to push them up into the stratosphere. But at the margin, it's pushing interest rates up, not down.

TAPPER: All right, Professor Alan Blinder, thank you so much. Appreciate it, sir.

BLINDER: You're welcome.

[17:39:54]

TAPPER: Did President Trump just reveal a side deal in his $16 million settlement with "CBS" and "Paramount"? What else Trump says he's getting in that exchange? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, a follow now to a story we've been covering for months. The many ways "CBS" and "Paramount" and "Skydance" are trying to win over President Trump so they can get their lucrative merger approved by his administration. President Trump announcing on social media that today "Paramount," which owns "CBS," paid the $16 million settlement that they reached with the president earlier this month for his lawsuit against "CBS News," in what many thought was a frivolous lawsuit.

But according to Trump, that was only one part of the settlement. He went on to claim that, quote, we also anticipate receiving $20 million more from the new owners in advertising, PSAs, or similar programming, for a total of over $36 million, unquote. Key words in that post, new owners, because "Paramount" has previously denied media reports claiming that there was more to the deal than publicly announced, going as far to say on the record that, quote, "Paramount" has no knowledge of any promises or commitments made to President Trump other than those set forth in the settlement proposed by the mediator and accepted by the parties, unquote.

[17:45:19]

This does suggest that Trump's team is having side conversations, not with the company or the people he was suing, "60 Minutes," "CBS News," "CBS Paramount," but with people at "Skydance," the company that could soon own them. When Trump's announcement comes, as Stephen Colbert hosted the first episode of his late night show since "CBS" announced it was canceling his program, a decision President Trump also celebrated Colbert didn't hold back during his monologue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, THE LATE SHOW STEPHEN COLBERT: Over the weekend, somebody at "CBS" followed up their gracious press release with a gracious anonymous leak saying they pulled the plug on our show because of losses pegged between $40 million and $50 million a year. $40 million is a big number. I could see us losing $24 million, but where would "Paramount" have possibly spent the other $16 million? Oh, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Colbert is far from the only pissed off comedian. His friends and late night rivals joined the crowd in his show last night for a sketch. There you see some of them in the audience. There's Adam Sandler and others. Jon Stewart said this on his own program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, HOST, THE DAILY SHOW: The fact that "CBS" didn't try save their number one rated network late night franchise that's been on the air for over three decades is part of what's making everybody wonder, was this purely financial or maybe the path of least resistance for your $8 billion merger? And if you believe as corporations or as networks, you can make yourselves so innocuous that you can serve a gruel so flavorless that you will never again be on the boy king's radar? A, why will anyone watch you and you are -- wrong?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN has reached out to "Skydance" for comment on Trump's latest post. The company has not yet responded.

Why the Chinese government is blocking a Wells Fargo banker from leaving the country.

Plus, this just in, a response from attorneys for Ghislaine Maxwell, their response to the request from the Justice Department to get more information publicly released in the Epstein saga. We'll bring that to you in minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:38]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, a second American has been barred from leaving China. Chinese authorities say an Atlanta-based banker working for Wells Fargo is involved in a criminal case, and that's why exit restrictions have been imposed.

It's not clear whom the target of the criminal case is, nor how the Wells Fargo employee is believed to be linked to it. This afternoon, an American working for the Commerce Department was also denied exit after failing to disclose in his visa application that he worked for the U.S. government. CNN's Mark Stewart is in a very foggy or smoggy Beijing, just trying to explain that background there.

Mark, you've spent -- you've spent a lot of time in China covering business. What is the feeling you're getting on the ground in Beijing to all of this?

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jake, it's just about 6 o'clock in the morning here in Beijing, and I think it is safe to say there's a feeling of anxiety. There's anxiety whenever something like this happens.

I heard from an American businessman here in Beijing on the ground who expressed concern about all of this for foreign workers who are here doing work on a long-term basis, but also in the short-term. But the fact of the matter is this. China is the world's second largest economy.

There are more than a billion people here. American companies, foreign firms, they want to do business here. The Chinese government wants those foreign dollars, and that's why we have seen CEOs such as Tim Cook from Apple make trips here. We have seen Jensen Huang, the CEO of NVIDIA. He was here just last week.

This is a very important market for American companies, but also global companies. But as this business person told me, if people are afraid to come to China, investment, this -- this forward thinking of foreign dollars, that's all going to fail, Jake.

TAPPER: Mark, let's talk about the timing of this. Why is this happening right in the middle of these discussions, these tariff negotiations?

STEWART: Right. That's a good question. I think that perhaps this could be seen as leverage, but it may not be so calculated. The point is that even though there are discussions taking place, even though there is hope of a Xi-Trump summit, it goes to show that in China, no matter what's happening at the top level, it doesn't always filter down to the bottom. That may be some of the disconnect that we're seeing here.

TAPPER: All right. Mark Stewart in Beijing, thanks so much.

[17:54:05]

A response just in from attorneys for Ghislaine Maxwell, the once girlfriend and associate of pedophile and sex trafficker, Jeffrey Epstein. Her attorneys are weighing in on the Trump Justice Department's efforts to get some grand jury transcripts publicly released. The CNN Justice team will have that story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, will she talk? The Justice Department says that they want to meet Ghislaine Maxwell, the once girlfriend and associate of pedophile sex trafficker, Jeffrey Epstein. And moments ago, her legal team confirmed they have been in contact with Justice Department officials today. So what do they have to say? Is she going to really cooperate with the government?

Plus, he tried to come to the U.S. legally to open a beauty salon. But Andry Jose Hernandez Romero was detained during the Biden administration and he was deported to El Salvador's notorious mega prison during the Trump administration. What we're learning about his case today.

Also, Americans drink more coffee than any other beverage, yum, yum. So how is President Trump's threat for massive tariffs on Brazilian coffee impacting restaurants and cafes here in the United States? We'll find out in our Small Business series.

And Ozzy Osbourne, the godfather of heavy metal, has died at the age of 76, just weeks after performing with Black Sabbath in a farewell show. We're going to take a look back at his legendary music career.

[17:59:52]

Late tonight, new twists in the Justice Department's efforts to unseal some grand jury transcripts related to the Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell case, including those in the trial of his former associate and Epstein -- and girlfriend, Maxwell.