Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Maxwell Attorneys Ask Judge To See Secret Grand Jury Transcripts; Democrats Plot Counterpunch To Texas GOP Redistricting Effort; Trump Attacks Federal Judge Presiding Over Harvard Case; Trump's Brazilian Coffee Tariff Threat Rattles Coffee Shops; Ozzy Osbourne, Godfather Of Heavy Metal, Dead At 76. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, will she talk? The Justice Department says that they want to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, the once girlfriend and associate of pedophile sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. And moments ago, her legal team confirmed they have been in contact with Justice Department officials today. So, what do they have to say? Is she going to really cooperate with the government?

Plus, he tried to come to the U.S. legally to open a beauty salon, but Andry Jose Hernandez Romero was detained during the Biden administration and he was deported to El Salvador's notorious mega prison during the Trump administration. What we're learning about his case today.

Also, Americans drink more coffee than any other beverage, yum, yum. So, how is President Trump's threat for massive tariffs on Brazilian coffee impacting restaurants and cafes here in the United States? We'll find out in our small business series.

And Ozzy Osbourne, the godfather of heavy metal, has died at the age of 76, just weeks after performing with Black Sabbath in a farewell show. We're going to take a look back at his legendary music career.

The Lead tonight, new twists in the Justice Department's efforts to unseal some grand jury transcripts related to the Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell case, including those in the trial of his former associate and girlfriend, Maxwell.

[18:00:05]

This afternoon, Maxwell's attorneys told the New York judge overseeing the case they want to review the grand jury transcripts themselves. They say they haven't even seen all of them themselves, and apparently even spoke with the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, about it today, adding in their letter, quote, he has no objection to our application.

Now, earlier today, Blanche said he wants to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, and today, Trump appeared to downplay such an idea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be sounds appropriate to do.

I didn't know that they were going to do it. I don't really follow that too much. It's sort of a witch hunt, just a continuation of the witch hunt. The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Anyway, CNN's Paula Reid joins us now. And, Paula, tell us more about this.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Jake, another day, another effort by the Trump Justice Department to appease those who are accusing them of not doing enough related to Epstein. Now, here, the deputy attorney general the United States, this is the number two official at the Justice Department, has reached out to Maxwell's lawyers to ask, quote, what do you know?

Now, I would guess that some of President Trump's sort of the lack of enthusiasm you heard there is partially informed by the fact that he knows, everybody knows that this is a woman that if she had some bombshell, the time to bring that up with the Justice Department would have been before she was charged and faces 20 years in prison. It's before your case goes to court. That's when you want to share what you know and strike a deal.

This is someone who has long denied wrongdoing and has had credibility issues. So, while President Trump does have some things to offer, he has pardon power, he could commute her sentence. This is also a landmine for the president because this is likely a woman that has some information, may not be criminally related, but some information about Trump's relationship with Epstein. And what's interesting is she is the one who compiled that book that reportedly included a letter from President Trump, that Wall Street Journal report last week.

So, I heard your guests say in the last hour that they thought it was, you know, really weird the deputy attorney general was handling this, doing this outreach. I agree, it is certainly not the normal way you would handle outreach like this. But, remember, Todd Blanche is also Trump's personal attorney. I've covered Trump's legal issues for about a decade now, Jake, and I can say of all the lawyers Trump has ever had, I think Todd Blanche has done the best job of sort of navigating thorny issues where his former client faces potential risks. So, it does not surprise me that he's handling this.

TAPPER: Paula, what are the judges saying about the request to unseal the pertinent grand jury material?

REID: So, this is moving along pretty quickly here. Last week, of course, the Justice Department asked to unseal this. We expected that the judge would ask for any relevant parties, anyone who has a stake in this, to weigh in. Here, they've asked the Justice Department to give them the material by next Tuesday. Then they gave Maxwell's lawyers until August 5th to weigh in. If they support this, we expect that Maxwell's lawyers will actually oppose. They're also giving the opportunity to victims to state their positions.

So, nothing immediate, but this is moving quickly. And, look, no matter what happens, we have this request for Maxwell, this request for grand jury information, we know that none of this is likely going to silence the questions that continue to be asked of this Justice Department about why they are not releasing more of the material in their own possession that has not been public yet.

TAPPER: All right. Paula Reid, thanks so much.

Joining us now, former Trump White House Lawyer Jim Schultz. Jim, good to see you.

So, if you were a lawyer for Ghislaine Maxwell, would you advise her to cooperate with the Trump administration, with the Justice Department?

JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: That's going to require, you know, me having known facts and other things that I don't know. But here's what we do know. We know that the courts are now involved. As we said on the last show, Jake, that's the most important thing here. They are the protector of this information, not the Justice Department.

If it is grand jury information that they are seeking to release or seeking to use, or seeking to make public, the court needs to weigh that, victims first, victims are the first consideration. And also the grand jury secrecy part. There's a reason why grand juries are done in secret. It's to have witnesses come forward so that they believe there's not going to be retribution. They feel like they could speak truthfully. They feel that it's done in secret, if that -- if courts are going to be very reticent to blow through the grand jury secrecy piece of this without a real compelling reason to do so.

So, I really believe that the department coming forward and asking for this, they're doing all -- the court is doing all the right things. They're asking Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyers, they're asking witnesses to come forward, because all of those things and the grand jury secrecy piece are all going to be weighed in making that determination.

[18:05:01]

TAPPER: And we know the grand jury testimony, if it is unsealed, let's assume, with the victim's names redacted, it's still only a very small portion of evidence. The deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, said he's just requesting to meet with Maxwell. And if that meeting happens, there's going to be no guarantee that that meeting will be made public or even if she'll cooperate.

Do you think these Justice Department efforts are as vigorous as they should be if one is actually trying to get as much information released as possible?

SCHULTZ: Well, if you have the deputy attorney general, certainly the number two person in the Justice Department asking for this, and, you know, we heard from numerous people saying this is somewhat unorthodox, the deputy attorney general is doing this, it also brings the power of the deputy attorney general, which signifies the importance of this issue to the Justice Department. So, as far as resources go, he's going to have everything he needs to go after those documents and petition the court and make the arguments he needs to make.

But it's not going to be for -- you know, the courts are just going to say, hey, yes, let's release this for purposes of, you know, releasing information to public because the press or someone's curious. There's going to have to be a legal reason to do it in order to kind of waive those grand jury secrecy rules in order to allow this information to become public. And Congress, they can subpoena folks all they want, but those documents don't leave the Justice Department unless the court says they do.

TAPPER: So, the real issue here is that there is information out there about other people who were part of this conspiracy, whether it is employees of Epstein and Maxwell who weren't charged with anything. And just to remind everybody, only two people have ever been charged, Maxwell and Epstein, or the men who allegedly took advantage of these sexual trafficking victims that Epstein trafficked.

Now, there are lots of names out there, like in these private files, in the Epstein files, of men who have not been charged with anything. Now, maybe they were charged because there was not a prosecutable case. Maybe they were charged because prosecutors thought it's prostitutes testifying against them. I'm not going to be able to get a conviction if we have these high-priced, fancy attorneys defending these rich men. Or maybe they didn't do anything. How do you think this should be handled with these names of other people, unindicted people?

SCHULTZ: If there is information -- and the reason why I'm just saying Maxwell's lawyers want this information was because the charging that took place with respect to Jeffrey Epstein, she did -- her lawyers didn't have access to that information. They had information relative to her case when she was charged, but not his case when he was charged. So, she wants that. They want that information for that benefit as well.

If the Justice Department wants this -- wants to have this information to be able to use it, they should be using it for the purposes of prosecuting folks who committed crimes. That's what the Justice Department does. It prosecutes people who commit crimes. If people committed crimes and they feel like they have a case to bring and they can put that may maybe, you know, start new grand jury proceedings, begin further -- go through further investigations, remember, this case dated back long before there was any charging in this, were there any federal charging in this case?

They took some of the stale, what was stale information and built that case against Jeffrey Epstein over time and, you know, that had -- you know, so that he would be charged federally. I think that's what they need to look at is, are there crimes that were committed that weren't charged or weren't prosecuted back when Epstein was charged and not prosecuted because he died in jail, in prison. TAPPER: Jim Schultz, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Our panel's with me now. Thanks guys for being here. Mike, do you think this push to --

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just knew he was going to --

TAPPER: Well, I'm going to come to you first it's a Republican president and Mike is a Republican and worked for Trump. The push to talk to Maxwell --

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes.

TAPPER: -- isn't that an admission that the Justice Department didn't actually do everything they could in terms of due diligence before they put out that memo two and a half weeks ago saying nothing to see here, folks?

DUBKE: No, I don't think so because, you know, the Biden Justice Department could have done the exact same thing previously. I don't think this is an admission that they didn't do enough. I think that this is more of an admission that this issue is not going to go away. We need to find a direction in which we can go to uncover some information that is releasable. And if it's coming from Maxwell as opposed to these binders that who knows what information was in these binders, that is a -- you know, politically, that's a smart move by this White House. They're finally starting to make moves to release some information to satisfy not only their base but the curiosity of it seems like 90 percent of America.

[18:10:03]

TAPPER: Yes. Karen, House Speaker Mike Johnson railed on Democrats today for not being intellectually consistent when it comes to the Epstein case. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Go back and look at their social media accounts, we have, and their public comments. They had exactly zero post on the subject for the last four years, the Biden administration. Interesting, isn't it?

We all understand that the America first agenda and the American people are best served by putting an end to the Democrat sideshows. And that's what we're doing by not allowing the Rules Committee to continue with that nonsense this week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What do you make of that?

FINNEY: That's absurd. The only reason that we are even talking about this is because Donald Trump has been trafficking and conspiracy theories. Epstein died in jail, however you believe that happened. Ghislaine Maxwell was in jail as of 2022. There she would be -- she would remain. The only reason any of this is happening is because Trump has been trafficking in these conspiracy theories, promised to release the information and then they botched the release of the information.

And now what you're seeing -- I mean, Trump must really be terrified. Let's throw all the best, you know, golden oldies out, right? It's Obama's fault. It's Hillary's fault. Let's release the files about MLK Jr. Like who -- I mean, who else is left to blame? And let's not forget though, the grand jury testimony is not the files. It's a great misdirect, but it is not the files. And there are individuals who know exactly who the men were, and they're terrified. And those are the women who were trafficked, who were raped.

DUBKE: I will give you every -- I will give you the point that you made that this has been a topic that has been brought up during the campaign by Trump, by several members of the MAGA base. I'll also hopefully that you'll also recognize that Epstein was charged while Trump was president. But the Democrats here are making a very political move. To Speaker Johnson's point, they are picking up the politics of that.

FINNEY: Hold up, though.

DUBKE: You have to at least acknowledge that this is a political game that has been happening over the last couple of weeks.

FINNEY: But let's acknowledge that Epstein, it was a ridiculous deal that he got in the first place.

TAPPER: Back in 2008.

FINNEY: Back in 2000 -- I mean, it was ridiculous.

TAPPER: Yes.

FINNEY: Back in 2008, these women had been trying to come forward for years and no one believed them. Again, finally, some modicum of justice, he is tried. He dies in prison. They get Ghislaine Maxwell. You're right, Jake, there are others who probably should have met justice.

You know, guess what? There's politics in politics, and if you are going to stoke the base with crazy sauce, don't be surprised when you get some of that sauce on you.

DUBKE: No, I'm not surprised. I'm just saying let's acknowledge the fact that this -- we're now outside of -- with all the empathy for the victims in this case, we are now in this political gotcha game that the Democrats are playing as well as the Republicans did prior to the campaign, the Democrats are now playing this post. And they're using -- you know, again, they don't have a message to run on, but they've got the message of Donald Trump not coming clean the way that he said he was going to, and they're running that as far and as hard as they can. FINNEY: Well, we've been making the case that he is not keeping his word to the American people on a number of issues, like what's happening with inflation and the economy, like what's happening with tariffs, like what's happening with immigration. And guess what? There are other pocket -- we've seen it in the polling. There are other pockets of Americans who agree with that.

This is the first thing I will grant you, that the MAGA base and your influencers and right wing media has -- they're even saying they don't buy it.

DUBKE: You granting me that is all I ever really asked for. That's so sweet.

TAPPER: Can I just say one thing? I just want to mention one thing, which is Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz from Florida, has been pushing this bill that would require that all victims of these kinds of crimes be alerted if there is a plea deal. That did not happen in 2008. That was kind of like a -- it wasn't just a sweetheart deal, but it was done in secret, basically. And these victims were -- and so I will -- I just want to say there's one Democrat, I can say, who actually was talking about one aspect of it.

But I totally take your point. House Democrats have not been talking about this, Senate Democrats have not been talking about this.

FINNEY: But why would we have when she's in jail -- I mean, it sort of was like, case closed. He's dead, she's in jail. So, why --

TAPPER: Because all the slimy (ph) men that were part of taking advantage of these poor trafficked girls and women.

DUBKE: Which could or could not have included Bill Clinton.

FINNEY: Okay, great. Let's see --

TAPPER: That could or could not have included any number of high- profile Democrats, Republicans and --

FINNEY: And you know what? They should all. May they all rotten hell if they assaulted women.

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: You know what? I think we all agree on that. Let's just end on that. Karen -- and girls.

FINNEY: Yes.

TAPPER: Even more so, perhaps.

FINNEY: Yes, they were girls at the time.

DUBKE: It's another level of help.

TAPPER: Yes, absolutely, down even one more level. Mike Dubke, Karen Finney, we all come together in our anger and hatred towards these traffickers.

Republicans in Texas are moving forward with President Trump's plans for his party to try to stay in power in the midterms by picking up some more House Republican seats in Texas. How will Democrats respond? Is there anything they can do? I'll ask a Democrat on the Oversight Committee. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, House Democrats are applauding a counterpunch to President Trump's redistricting power push in Texas, where Texas State Legislatures are currently looking at redrawing their Congressional maps to try to increase the number of House Republicans in the House of Representatives.

Joining us now to discuss how Democrats are preparing against Republicans in next year's midterm battle, Congressman Robert Garcia, Democrat of California.

[18:20:03]

Congressman, good to see you.

Sources tell CNN. The Democrats are already exploring plans to redistrict in California, your home state, Washington State, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York. So, are you on board with the strategy of Democrats throwing out any sort of nonpartisan redistricting commissions and Democrats are now in on the plan for no holds barred partisan redistricting, like a lot of Republican states are doing, from now on?

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): I absolutely support the governor in this effort, and I think that this is the right approach and here's why. We have to ensure that we are playing on the same field as Republicans when it comes to redistricting.

In the past, I've been a supporter of our independent commission in California. It has produced, I think, generally fair districts, certainly not perfect. But if Republicans are going to actually do this whole gerrymandering process, so they're going to go in, they're going to pull apart maps, they're going to actually force additional districts and they're going to gerrymander, I think Democrats have to also be smart about doing the exact same thing. So, they now want to take and strengthen their control of the House and go to state by state, not just in Texas, as we know, it's Ohio, which other places, they already did it in North Carolina, and Democrats are supposed to just sit back and watch it all happen, it's not acceptable.

And so I think this effort by Governor Newsom to explore, if we can do the same thing in a way that's legal and supported by the public in California, I think, is the right approach. And we've got to be smart about it. Californians and our Congressional delegation is actively talking about it. And so we're working with the governor and we'll see how it develops. But I imagine over the course of the next couple of weeks we'll have a lot more certainty of actually how we move forward.

TAPPER: But as a general notion, if you could snap your fingers and all 50 states have non-partisan redistricting commissions, you would prefer that?

GARCIA: I would. And, look, if we were all playing on the same exact field and we actually were going by the same rules, I would support that. Our two largest states, New York and California on the Democratic side, have commissions. The two largest states on the Republican side, Texas and Florida, do not.

Clearly, we have tried to do the right thing. Democrats have tried to play by the rules, allow these nonpartisan commissions to do their work, while Republicans now instead are choosing to gerrymander and do whatever they can to hold onto power in a way that is, I believe, unfair, broadly.

And so what I would support is if we go in this direction, we should have some type of trigger where California should say if and when Texas and/or Florida choose to also put in a nonpartisan commission, we'll snap back to ours and go back to an independent commission. But until then, we cannot have this fight with our hands tied behind or back. We've got to explore this work ahead.

TAPPER: Let's change the subject because you've been following an important deportation case. The gentleman's name is Andry Jose Hernandez Romero. He is a Venezuelan makeup artist. He tried to come to the United States legally in hopes of opening a beauty salon here, but he was detained at a port of entry last August by the Biden administration. He was applying for asylum. His family says he faced harassment in Venezuela for being openly gay and that made him a target.

He was detained though during the Biden administration. He was linked to the Tren de Aragua criminal gang because of his tattoos, whether or not that's true or not. He was ultimately deported by the Trump administration, however, to El Salvador's mega prison in March. Then Friday, his lawyers say he's back in Venezuela.

Now, you've been in touch with Hernandez Romero's legal team. What are they telling you about his situation and what are they telling you about his wellbeing?

GARCIA: Yes. I mean, first he is he's healthy. He's alive, which is the most important thing. Remember, we had not seen actually proof of life since he was actually taken. When I was in El Salvador and I talked to the ambassador about Andry's case, you know, they -- he was also unaware of his case.

And so it's one that we've tried to uplift because people need to understand that this is someone who we invited to have an asylum appointment here at the border. He comes to his appointment that we gave him, and then, of course, is detained and eventually deported to El Salvador into an infamous prison and a country he knows nothing about.

And so we've been pushing to ensure that we got some type of check that he was actually alive. We now know that he's alive. He's been reunited with his family. His legal team has been in touch with his family. I know myself and others I'm hoping to connect hopefully with him directly in the days ahead. He has been through some horrific conditions, as we are aware.

And I think what's important right now, the legal team is working with him to ensure that we do what he wants moving forward. We're not sure if that's trying to reapply through the asylum process, whether it's him wanting to be and stay in Venezuela, whether he wants to be in another, a third country, and apply for asylum there. But the important thing is that we follow his lead. He's been through an incredibly traumatic few months and that right now is top of mind for us, making sure that he's okay.

[18:25:01]

TAPPER: I mean, I'm just thinking about the worst possible things that happen in a notorious prison, especially to an openly gay makeup artist. Is he physically all right?

GARCIA: I don't -- you know, he has already said publicly in Venezuela that he did suffer abuse. The extent of that abuse, we are not fully aware of yet. I think we all can imagine the horrors that he has been through.

I'll tell you, his family has described him to us as someone very gentle and very sweet. And it's just -- it's sick what he had to go through. And so right now I think his family's really focused and his legal team on his health. He is alive. He is speaking. He is presenting healthy but of course the trauma and everything else is all being, you know, dealt with and discussed right now.

And so we want to make sure he's healthy first and we will be there to provide any additional support or protection considering we were the ones in the United States that actually invited him to this actual appointment.

TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California, thank you so much for your time and I really appreciate it.

GARCIA: Thank you.

TAPPER: From cancer research to stroke studies, one analysis finds that Trump's fight with Harvard could put tens of millions of dollars of medical research on the chopping block in the name of combating anti-Semitism. We're digging into these potential impacts next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, President Trump is railing against the judge overseeing Harvard University's case against the Trump administration. Harvard wants to restore more than $2 billion in already allocated federal funding after the administration says Harvard let anti-Semitism fester and run amok after the October 7th attacks in Israel by Hamas.

The administration froze more than $2 billion in grants at Harvard, including $198 million for cancer research, $158 million for neurological disorders and strokes research, and $715 million for allergy and infectious disease research, according to The New York Times.

Dr. Loren Walensky runs the Harvard/MIT M.D.-PhD program, which relies on federal aid. Dr. Walensky, thanks for joining us.

Can you talk about how this funding freeze has affected your program?

DR. LOREN WALENSKY, DIRECTOR, HARVARD/MIT MD-PHD PROGRAM: Well, first, I have to say that when you think about what's happening right now, this is really something that affects the entire nation. Because when you cut off funding to scientists and doctors, and scientists and doctors in training who are working every day 24/7 to try to cure the diseases of the American public, you're talking about a major slowdown.

And so it affects everything that's happening both here and in other universities that are trying to make a difference for Americans. And that's what this is really all about, stopping and freezing funding and putting, you know, some of America's top scientists and physicians coming to work essentially with their hands behind their back because they don't have the funding that they rely on to deliver the goods for the American people, which is the cures for their currently incurable diseases.

TAPPER: So, the Harvard/MIT M.D.-PhD program, it's world renowned. You're training the next generation of physicians and scientists. What impact might this freeze have on science and research?

WALENSKY: Well, you know, first of all, you have to think about what these students are here to do. They're here to learn how to take care of patients. Then they go into see those patients, identify the problems that are not solvable. Then they go back to the laboratory in their graduate research homes. In those laboratories, they are working day and night to come up with cures.

Now, those laboratories rely on federal funding to not only hire them, pay for them, enable them to order reagents to do their experiments. When you shut that down, you have an immediate freeze and contraction of this work. And the goal of those students is to then learn from all this and bring it back to the hospital, bring it back to the clinic and the doctor's offices so that they can make Americans healthier and live longer.

And so when you shut this money off, you're not only getting rid of the research and slowing it down, if not halting it, but you're also demoralizing the next generation of brilliant scientists and doctors who are committed to doing this job for their entire lives and careers to help people live longer and healthier lives. TAPPER: Well, let's talk about the next generation of scientists and doctors. How have they been affected by the cuts? Have they lost scholarships?

WALENSKY: Absolutely. So, our M.D.-PhD program lost in one day $9.4 million for training. That's 210 students who rely on those funds to attend and train, and they come from all over the United States, from every single country in America, and they're coming here to learn how to be doctors and scientists.

And so we lost two of our major grants for scholarship and 32 individual scholarship grants that are, and I should say, not gifts. These grants are incredibly hard earned. These students have to apply and compete with every other student in America at the NIH through very rigorous peer review. And then when they get, when they win these grants, you're talking about the top 5 percent of folks that apply for these grants actually win and earn them. And then their job is a contract with America to go and do those proposals. Those are hard earned proposals that they worked so hard to win. It's like taking a gold medal away from someone who's trained their whole life to be an Olympian.

TAPPER: Dr. Walensky, let me say, just as an observer I was pretty shocked by some of the anti-Semitic acts that I saw covered on the Harvard campus after October 7th. And it does seem as though some of that was not taken very seriously by the former administration. You're Jewish. I assume that you shared my view of anti-Semitism on campus, in general. Do you think that what the Trump administration is doing is an effective way to combat it and to get Harvard to take it more seriously cutting these grants?

WALENSKY: Well, first of all, I think Harvard has taken it very seriously.

[18:35:00]

I think institutions and universities all over the country have taken this very seriously, because their job is to protect their student body. And so Harvard has addressed this. They've addressed it publicly.

But I think this has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing today, which is trying to find cures for Americans who are desperately in need of them, people that are suffering from strokes and heart attacks, and cancer and Alzheimer's disease, every disease under the sun that we're working on here to try to cure you. Ask those patients waiting for the cures from us what this has to do with anti- Semitism, it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

We're here working day and night to try to help people live longer, healthier and happier lives. And we really don't see the connection. And I think these things are being conflated and we have to really kind of have a reality check, wake up and realize that what really matters here and what's really suffering is that the American people are not going to be getting the cures that they're relying on so that they can be living happy, healthy, and long lives. Dr. Loren Walensky, thank you so much. I appreciate your time, sir.

WALENSKY: Thank you.

TAPPER: We have some breaking news in our Law and Justice League today. Federal judges decided time's up for former Trump campaign spokesperson Alina Habba, who had been serving as the interim U.S. attorney in New Jersey. This afternoon, Attorney General Pam Bondi slammed the, quote, politically-minded judges that in the same breath, she fired the new interim U.S. attorney only a few hours on the job.

CNN Senior Legal Analyst and New Jersey resident Elie Honig is here. Elie how rare is a move like this by the judge panel?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's extremely rare, Jake, I can't think of another example in recent DOJ history. So, U.S. attorneys are typically nominated by the president, confirmed by the Senate. One of the ways to fill a vacancy if you don't have a fully nominated and confirmed U.S. attorney is federal law says the attorney General can appoint an interim U.S. attorney, but that person can only hold that seat for 120 days.

So, that's what happened here. Pam Bondi appointed Alina Habba under that law. Today was the 120th day. And what happens then is it goes to a vote of the federal district court judges, the trial level judges in that district. There are 17 of them in the district of New Jersey, 17 active judges. And in every instance I can think of off the top of my head, the judges have simply adopted the person who the A.G. put in that spot. In fact, if you look back at the first Trump term, the person who was put in this spot by the Attorney General, the Trump administration's pick, came up to his 120th days, and the judges approved that person. So, this is extremely unusual.

I should say, though, Alina Habba can still be nominated by Donald Trump and confirmed by the Senate, but for the time being, she is out as the head of that office.

TAPPER: All right. Elie Honig, thanks so much.

Coming up, amid the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza aid groups and global news agencies are considering leaving the besieged strip. Our next guest knows exactly how this lack of aid is affecting the most vulnerable children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

TAPPER: Our World Lead takes us to Gaza, where at least 15 people, including 4 children, have starved to death since yesterday. According to the Palestinian Run Health Ministry, which is controlled by Hamas, which the U.S. considers a terrorist group. As Israeli tanks rolled into the central Gazan city of Deri al Balah for the first time since the war began, according to Israeli military media reports, the central location for aid groups, such as the World Health Organization. Joining us now, Arwa Damon, the President and founder of INARA, which provides medical and mental health assistance to children in war zones. She's also a former CNN Senior International Correspondent Arwa, it's so good to see you again.

So, the World Health Organization in Gaza says, male staffers in Deri al Balah were, quote, handcuffed, stripped, and interrogated by Israel's military on Monday after strikes damaged the main World Health Organization warehouse. Israel's military tells CNN, they were looking for terrorists and treated people in accordance with international law. What are you hearing from aid workers on the ground in Central Gaza about how difficult this job is?

ARWA DAMON, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, INARA: Oh, Jake, it's impossible. I mean, to get anything done in Gaza right now is like trying to jump through mental hoops and all sorts of obstacles that one cannot even really begin to describe or comprehend. When it comes to what happened at the WHO site, they basically had a number of their staff and their families who were sheltering at that site because of the evacuation order for huge parts of Deir al Balah. And that is when the location, which was de-conflicted, by the way, was first initially hit in an airstrike and then the IDF forces entered.

As far as we know right now, one of their staff is still being detained by the IDF and they put out a press release saying that the men were stripped down, that they were searched and that the women and children were let away at gunpoint. Look, we've had staff that, you know, had to evacuate their homes because of the evacuation orders that came down in Deir al Balah as well, and a number of other or aid organizations have had to relocate. So, it just further cripples our capacity to be able to operate, which has already been significantly crippled.

TAPPER: You posted a video showing a family struggling to feed and care for their children and talked about how your children's trying to help them. The infants have horrible rashes. They don't have enough formula. Another kid had lice. Let's show part of your video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAMON: One of the boys tells Yusra (ph), our program coordinator, that it's his birthday the next day, and his mother says, he asked her for bread on his birthday. Not a cake, just bread. And then do you know what happens? Yusra returns on her own time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Yusra returned and gave him some bread. Why did you feel it important to spotlight this story in particular?

DAMON: You know, Jake, because in so many cases, a lot of what we see is the pain and the agony that, you know, Palestinians in Gaza are going through, and rightfully so. But what we don't see often enough of are these small moments of humanity that exist every single day. And I saw numerous times on the four trips that I made into Gaza since October 7th, before Israel decided to deny me entry. [18:45:04]

And you really do get this great sense that no matter what, no matter how hard things are for people there, they still do continue to look out for each other, to try to create small moments of joy for each other whenever they can, and however they can.

TAPPER: Agence France Presse, AFP, one of the world's largest news agencies, says that they're trying to evacuate the remaining freelance staff from Gaza because the situation, they say, has become untenable. It's already incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to report from the ground in Gaza, for most news organizations, because obviously it's a war zone. It's so dangerous.

But now, they're talking about the struggle to get food as one of the reasons. What did you make of that when you heard that?

DAMON: You know, this is one of the many reasons why a lot of, you know, individuals and other journalists are saying, this is why you need to let the rest of the media into Gaza, because the pressure on Palestinian journalists has been enormous. And look, they're struggling just like the rest of the population. They are hungry, even they and those who are making a salary, my staff, who are making a salary, can always find enough food to actually be able to feed themselves and their families.

I get messages from, you know, friends who are doctors from our own staff as well, who are just messaging, saying, I'm hungry, and you don't really know how to respond to that because there is no logical response to that.

TAPPER: Arwa Damon, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:26]

TAPPER: It's time for our "Business Leaders" series, where we hear from small business owners coast to coast about Trump's tariffs. Coffee shops are preparing for a potential 50, 5-0, percent tariff on Brazilian coffee. That's a threat President Trump made earlier this month. Nearly a third of the U.S. supply of coffee comes from Brazil.

Superior Coffee Roasting Company's founder and owner, Ron Kurnik, joins me now.

Ron, how are you preparing for -- how are you preparing your supply right now for this potential 50 percent tariff? And I should note full disclosure, I'm a huge coffee drinker, and I do happen to love coffee from outside the contiguous United States, whether Brazil or Jamaica or Hawaii.

RON KURNIK, FOUNDER & OWNER, SUPERIOR COFFEE ROASTING COMPANY: Well, and that's an indisputable fact that almost all coffee comes from outside the United States. And like you mentioned earlier, Brazil is the biggest player and provides about a third of the coffee to the United States.

And with the United States being the largest consumer of coffee, there's kind of an inseparable relationship there. So, this tariff is a big deal and will affect us, certainly because we buy a lot of coffee from Brazil and use it in blends and such.

So, if this holds, then we have to start looking at alternatives. And when you're trying to find an alternative to the biggest producer, it's not easy.

TAPPER: So, what do you do? I mean, do you raise your prices? Have you had to raise your prices at all since the tariffs began in April?

KURNIK: We have. We didn't want to be jumping out of the gates to do so. We kind of stayed in a bit of a holding pattern to see what things, how things would develop. Back at the beginning of June, we did raise our prices about 16 percent. Coffee prices in general have gone up here since spring. And so really that's covering basically just those costs. Tariffs aside.

So we're just waiting to see kind of what develops and what sort of ink dries on deals before we make our next move.

TAPPER: You're also, we should note in the town of Sault Ste. Marie, right near the Canadian border. Have the tariff wars with Canada impacted your business?

KURNIK: So, yeah, we were in a bit of a unique situation where we have to consider the tariffs that are coming up from our imports, but then we also export to stores and businesses, and that both in the U.S. and in Canada. So, we do cross trade and that rate almost from the beginning has been a 25 percent tariff on our imports of coffee into Canada.

So, it really makes it difficult to find a margin that will, you know, continue making that a solvent proposition.

TAPPER: What do you want President Trump and lawmakers to know and understand about how small businesses such as yours are being impacted right now?

KURNIK: Well, small businesses are the backbone of America. And with all of this up and down and tariff on, tariff off rigamarole that's going on it, it's really creating an unstable environment. And I think that a large part of the reason why business does so well, and people want to come to the United States to do start up business is because of the stability and the predictability of the business environment.

And right now, we do not have that. And so, if there could be some stability, I understand that maybe there'll be some baseline tariffs and things like that. Some of it makes sense and some does not. But there's a lot of instability. And that's just putting us in a holding pattern that does not allow us to grow, does not allow us let us, you know, move on like we need to. TAPPER: The coffee shop is called Superior Coffee Roasting company.

It's in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. You can also buy their coffee on their website. Superior Coffee Company.

Ron Kurnik, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it, sir.

KURNIK: It's my pleasure. Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: The world lost an incredibly talented man today. The godfather of heavy metal, Ozzy Osbourne, dead at the age of 76.

[18:55:02]

We're going to take a look at his legacy next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our pop culture lead now, rock and roll icon Ozzy Osbourne has died at the age of 76. His family tells CNN, quote, "Our beloved Ozzy Osbourne has passed away this morning. He was with his family and surrounded by love."

Best known to music fans as the godfather of metal and the prince of darkness, as the frontman for Black Sabbath, Osbourne had an encore as a reality TV superstar, along with his wife Sharon and two children, and the popular and Emmy award winning show "The Osbournes".

Now, in addition to his open struggle with alcohol and substance abuse, Osbourne also had Parkinson's disease. That did not keep him from performing. Earlier this month, he reunited with Black Sabbath, which the band called his final bow.

In 2022, Osbourne reflected on his many accomplishments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OZZY OSBOURNE, MUSICIAN: I've met some amazing people. Oh, that's some great experiences both good and bad. I wouldn't change a thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I wouldn't change anything.

Ozzy Osborne, may his memory be a blessing.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.