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The Lead with Jake Tapper
DOJ Interviews Epstein Accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell in Prison; Trump Tours Federal Reserve Renovations with Fed Chair; Billionaire Wants of "Economic Heart Attack" in the U.S.; Malnutrition Deaths Rise as Gaza Aid Crisis Worsens; White House Slams New "South Park" Episode Mocking Trump. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
LANDSMAN: -- more and that's why, like, I am pushing all of my colleagues, Democratic colleagues, to get out and into these spaces. One, you're going to have fun. You're going to meet really interesting people. But, two, they're going to turn around and be like, oh, OK, I know a little bit more about Democrats, and I may be more likely to vote for them. So go out in these spaces. I think the UFC fight makes sense like I would do that.
WILLIAMS: I've been to a pro-wrestling match, I can attest, it's a lot of fun. You should all do it.
LANDSMAN: So much.
WILLIAMS: Everybody should do it.
HUNT: All right. Thank you guys very much for being here today.
Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD."
Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, how are you? Good to see you, Kasie. Thanks so much.
HUNT: Have a great show. See you soon.
TAPPER: Have a great show to you as well.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
The breaking news as President Trump's Epstein problem keeps growing, today he dispatched his deputy attorney general Todd Blanche to Tallahassee, Florida. There, Mr. Blanche met with Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend, who groomed minor girls for Epstein and allegedly Epstein's associates. Maxwell is the only living person facing any sort of accountability for the sex trafficking crimes surrounding Epstein. She is currently serving a 20-year sentence. Her attorney arrived for the meeting this morning. That meeting is now
over. The Justice Department's stated purpose is to see if Ghislaine Maxwell can give any new information that could lead to the prosecution of others. Of course, there are plenty of reasons to doubt Maxwell's credibility, including past perjury charges, to say nothing of her loathsome crimes. So what actually comes of this meeting remains to be seen.
The move came as a result of immense and intense public pressure, much of it from Trump's own base after the Trump administration failed to live up to its promise of releasing the proverbial Epstein files. They still have not done so. Sources told us yesterday that Attorney General Pam Bondi briefed President Trump back in May that his name was, among others, in the Epstein files, hearsay, said the "Wall Street Journal," when they broke the story. Here saying among hundreds of other names. The sources said the files appeared to include several, several unsubstantiated claims that the Justice Department found not credible, including those relating to Trump.
Now, the deputy attorney general Todd Blanche, who was is meeting with Maxwell, was part of that briefing and do not forget that Mr. Blanche is the artist formerly known as Trump's defense attorney, representing him during the criminal hush money coverup trial in Manhattan last year involving Stormy Daniels, et cetera. One of the Trump administration's other moves to try and quell the Epstein clamor was shot down yesterday. A judge in Florida declined the Justice Department's request to release grand jury interviews from the criminal probe into Epstein and Maxwell.
This was not an unexpected outcome. Grand jury testimony is almost always kept entirely secret to protect witnesses and victims. So while President Trump and other officials set up meetings and try to compel courts to release some confidential transcripts, they would probably like you to forget that they're the ones who possess some of the most pertinent information, that they don't need a judge to sign off on releasing the Epstein case files, which sit in the Department of Justice and in the FBI files and the Treasury Department. They sit in the offices of the U.S. attorneys in New York and Miami, both appointed by Trump.
So why not just release all those documents? Democrats and some Republicans in Congress are asking that very question. The House Oversight Committee says that they're going to issue a subpoena demanding that the Justice Department hand over Epstein material, that the president and Attorney General Bondi had initially promised. The panel is also dishing out subpoenas to Ghislaine Maxwell and to former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who had interactions with Epstein.
Here is House Oversight Committee chairman James Comer of Kentucky detailing those subpoenas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): We're going to move quickly on that. All the names that were mentioned are names that have been mentioned in the past with respect to the Epstein saga. So I'm surprised that the Democrats went along with subpoenaing Bill and Hillary Clinton and others that have been involved in that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: "Punchbowl News" writes this morning, quote, "President Donald Trump has lost control of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Congress slips from Trump's grip."
Let's bring in CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez.
And Evan, the interview with Maxwell, with Ghislaine Maxwell, this woman who groomed minor girls for Epstein and maybe for others, it's now over. Are we going to get a transcript? Are we going to get a readout? Are we going to get audio of the interview? What are we going to get?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: None of those things are pending anytime soon, Jake. I mean, one of the things that we still don't know also is what was Todd Blanche offering because Ghislaine Maxwell really has very little incentive to speak to the Justice Department unless she is getting something in return.
[17:05:06]
And that is, of course, that she wants to get out of prison. She is -- she has maintained her innocence. She's still appealing her sentence and her conviction. And so therefore, you know, what was the -- what was the tone of this meeting? What were the terms under which this meeting took place? Those questions were not answered at the end of this hours long meeting that they had.
We did get some detail from David Marcus, who is Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer. I think we have some sound from him when he stepped out of the of the courthouse there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID OSCAR MARKUS, GHISLAINE MAXWELL'S ATTORNEY: We want to thank the deputy attorney general for being so professional with all of us and for meeting with us. And he took a full day and asked a lot of questions. And Miss Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped. She never invoked a privilege. She never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly, and to the best of her ability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PEREZ: And look, David Markus is a very, very good lawyer, and he would not let his client talk unless there is some kind of protection for her, which tells us a lot, right? It tells us that it's most likely she was brought in to serve certain terms where she would not. Anything she said would not be held against her. She can spill everything that she knows. And then the Justice Department can see whether there's anything there that is of use to them.
Now, the big question, Jake, remains, you know, the documents that you said that you've that pointed out the attorney general has access.
TAPPER: Thousands of them.
PEREZ: Right.
TAPPER: Just sitting there.
PEREZ: Right. And they've already been redacted.
TAPPER: Right.
PEREZ: The Justice Department and the FBI spent weeks going through them, making sure victims' names, witness names are redacted. So those documents are ready the minute James Comer's subpoenas land at the Justice Department. If the attorney general were so inclined, she could at least start satisfying some of those.
What Ghislaine Maxwell has and what is in those transcripts from the -- from the courts in New York and elsewhere, that's small potatoes, right? At this moment, there are still documents that they could release if they wanted.
TAPPER: So the big question I have for Todd Blanche, not that he's taking my questions, but --
PEREZ: Neither is he mine.
TAPPER: Yes, but if he's -- is he down there as the deputy attorney general to seek justice and accountability for other bad guys who need to go to prison? Or is he down there as he was in his previous job as Donald Trump's defense attorney to make sure that there's nothing that she's going to say that's bad about him?
PEREZ: Right. Those are good questions. I mean, one of the things he did say was his goal was to see whether there was any indication of additional people who could be charged with crimes. Mind you, they put out a statement on July 8th that said they had done an exhaustive review and determined that there were no -- there was no evidence to point to that.
TAPPER: Well, how exhausted could it have been if they didn't even talk to Ghislaine Maxwell before they did that review.
All right, Evan Perez, thanks so much. I guess the question answers itself.
While Trump's defense attorney general -- deputy attorney general, sorry, Freudian slip. While Trump's deputy attorney general takes a trip to Florida on this Epstein related business, President Trump himself is taking a separate trip on his own to the U.S. Federal Reserve. Obviously, some might say this is let's talk about anything but Epstein related business.
Trump just joined a tour of the Fed's renovations. He stood in a hard hat alongside the Fed chair that he loves to deride, Jerome Powell, Jerome Powell. Trump continually blasting Jerome Powell for not lowering interest rates. Not -- he doesn't have the power single handedly to do so. The Fed has said that they're reluctant to lower the interest rates because of the chaos and unpredictability caused by Trump's tariffs.
CNN's Brian Todd is outside the Federal Reserve right now.
And Brian, you've been tracking the building's renovations. Trump talked about that, had some comments to make. How did this all go down today amid the feud between Trump and Powell?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, it was an extraordinary moment. Not only is it rare for a president to visit the Federal Reserve, this was an almost unheard of moment where when the president came out at the start of his tour, Jerome Powell was right next to him, and they proceeded to engage in a public argument in front of the cameras over the cost of the renovation, with Trump presenting a figure of $3.1 billion and Powell openly disputing that.
Take a listen to the exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It looks like it's about $3.1 billion. It went up a little bit or a lot. So the $2.7 is now $3.1 and --
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIR: I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
POWELL: Yes, I -- I haven't heard that from anybody. The Fed --
TRUMP: It just came out.
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): I noticed that about $3.1 as well.
TRUMP: 3.1.
SCOTT: 3.1, 3.2.
POWELL: This just came from us?
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.
POWELL: You're including the Martin Renovation. You just added --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the entire (INAUDIBLE).
POWELL: You just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.
[17:10:00]
TRUMP: Well, yes, but it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.
TRUMP: It's part of the overall work. So --
POWELL: It's not new.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: So just an extraordinary exchange between the two men. Trump saying that the figure had gone up to $3.1 billion, Powell correcting him and saying that's really not the figure. That's for -- that includes a building that has already been completed in the process. The actual figure for the cost of this renovation behind me is now $2.5 billion, possibly a little bit more.
And we'll take a look at what it actually looks like. Our photojournalist, Jake Shear, is going to zoom past me here, and I can show you firsthand. You see the scaffolding over on the right. You see the cranes. You see the blue skin waterproof coverings on the windows.
We also got, Jake, some interesting footage that we were able to get with access to the -- to the interior of the building during the renovation. We were given a tour. The media was given a tour of that earlier today. We saw people in hazmat suits navigating the interiors. We saw stone being applied to the framework of some places in the exterior and the interior. We also got a look at the original skylight of the building above the main entrance hall, which is also being renovated.
This comes as we also get new information on some of the things that are driving up costs. Fed officials telling us today that installing some security features like blast proof windows as part of the overall upgrade of security is driving up the cost of this project, as is something called progressive collapse measures to prevent the building from collapsing all at once if some kind of an explosion did occur.
So all of this adding to the cost overruns, Jake, and adding to the president's frustration with the cost of this project. And we all know that it is really about Powell not lowering interest rates fast enough for Trump's liking.
TAPPER: Yes. Brian Todd at the Fed. Thanks so much.
Joining us now to discuss, the former deputy director of the FBI Andrew McCabe.
Let's go back to the Epstein issue, Andy. What does it tell you that President Trump's deputy attorney general, his former defense attorney, was the individual who went down to Tallahassee to meet with Epstein's child trafficking groomer, Ghislaine Maxwell, who would love a pardon? Like, why not send somebody lower level or some sort of bipartisan group? What do you think?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Jake, that is a great question. I can tell you in my entire 21-year history in the FBI, having worked with many deputy attorneys general, I have never, ever in my life seen a deputy attorney general sit down in an interview with a convicted prisoner who is seeking some sort of sentencing relief, which is undoubtedly what's motivating Maxwell here.
This does not happen. Deputy attorneys general don't leave the DOJ main building to go in and conduct interviews with anyone in any case, and I've seen some of the most significant detained terrorists, detained murderers, mass shooters interviewed. And it just doesn't happen. So it raises all sorts of questions like the one you asked, like what was his true role in this interview? Was he truly representing the best interests of the case and seeking a way forward for this matter? Or was he in there listening, to try to get an early, you know, direct line on what Maxwell might have to say about his boss?
I think it also speaks to the phenomenal level of or the lack of trust that the administration has in the Southern District. In any other case, it is the chief prosecutors, the prosecutors who are involved in Maxwell's trial would be the ones to travel to the prison to interview the convict, to make this very careful determination as to whether or not they're going to accept cooperation from the convict.
Clearly, they don't trust anyone outside of DOJ main, certainly not the Southern District, to have this sensitive conversation without someone of the deputy attorney general's weight present.
TAPPER: Yes. Who served in his prior job as President Trump's defense attorney. House Oversight Committee chairman James Comer, Republican of Kentucky, said today that he plans to subpoena the Justice Department for all the Epstein files they have, along with depositions of others, including Bill and Hillary Clinton.
Do you think that Congress is actually going to make headway on getting these Epstein files released?
MCCABE: You know, any other -- any other situation in any other time absolutely not. This is exactly the sort of thing that DOJ would fight on very principled grounds. There's all kinds of good reasons to maintain distance between the work of the executive branch, the investigative work of the FBI, the legal decisions of the Department of Justice that are inside that file to keep them from Congress.
Typically, you know, DOJ would go up and brief Congress on their decisions or maybe provide some sort of a write-up. But looking inside the investigative files is something -- not something that happens. But here, if DOJ wants to take that traditional protective approach, they are going to have to fight the subpoena.
[17:15:03]
They're going to have to file a suit to try to have the subpoena quashed. And that puts the administration and the White House in a very awkward position of having to actually fight against transparency. So it will be really interesting to see whether DOJ completely abandons their independence and tradition and hands over the files, or if they actually go into court and fight against them.
TAPPER: All right. Andrew McCabe, thanks so much. Good to see you.
My next guest also worked in the Justice Department and has unique insight into how the agency may want to portray the Epstein scandal to the American public. Plus, president's visit to the Federal Reserve. I'm going to ask a billionaire businessman what he makes of President Trump continuously attacking Fed chair Jerome Powell.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're back with our "Law and Justice Lead," in the meeting today in Tallahassee between Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and Jeffrey Epstein's former associate and procurer, Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell currently serving a 20-year prison sentence for her role in the years long scheme with Epstein to groom and sexually abuse a network of underage girls.
Let's bring in my panel.
Xochitl, you worked for the Justice Department during the Biden era.
[17:20:04]
Well, first of all, there is this question out there that Republicans are asking, like Democrats had control of the House, Senate and the Justice Department for years, and they didn't do anything. Well, they did bring Ghislaine Maxwell to justice, I suppose.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Correct. Yes.
TAPPER: But they didn't do anything to release the Epstein files. Why not? Is that a fair question?
HINOJOSA: I mean, and I think you're hearing it from both sides on this at the moment, as you always do with the last Justice Department, but yes.
TAPPER: Well, but Pam Bondi didn't do it either when she was attorney general in Florida. Right.
HINOJOSA: Pam Bondi didn't do it either. Yes. That's absolutely right. I think because it's not the Justice Department's responsibility to investigate conspiracy theories. It's their responsibility to investigate crime.
TAPPER: But this is a real conspiracy. There were -- there was a conspiracy to traffic these young underage girls and only two people, Epstein and Maxwell, ever saw justice. And there are a bunch of bad guys that got away with it.
HINOJOSA: And there -- and there was obviously, Epstein was held accountable, and there was evidence that the justice-ish and there was evidence that as part of that, they were able to gather and try to figure out if there's anyone else that they could hold accountable. But that is the responsibility of prosecutors, line prosecutors who are looking at these.
TAPPER: U.S. attorneys.
HINOJOSA: U.S. attorneys and line prosecutors. And the interesting part of this is James Comey's daughter was actually involved in this case and was fired just recently. Unclear why. Unclear whether it was this or because of the Diddy trial. But the reality is, is that this is normally left to the U.S. attorney's office, and it's not something for the attorney general to handle.
The attorney general doesn't go to the FBI and say, give me the -- all the Epstein files. I would like to look through them to see whose name was in there and what else I can do. He's not the prosecutor, and nor should he be. He should be worried about all sorts of other things, in national security matters. But the reality is, is that Pam Bondi has taken this on, and now she has seen what sort of a mess this is, just to -- just to, I mean, appease the base.
TAPPER: Yes. So, Bryan, you said, if you don't mind me outing you like I can't believe we're still talking about this.
BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: Right.
TAPPER: One of the -- and I said one of the reasons we're still talking about is because everything that the president does, I mean, like Todd Blanche going down and talking to Ghislaine Maxwell today keeps this in the news.
What do you think the administration needs to do to move on from this? Because obviously it's not just the likes of me that are talking about this. His Republicans on Capitol Hill are talking about this.
LANZA: Look, I think it's clear that a lot of people have a lot of questions, right.
TAPPER: Good ones, good questions. True?
LANZA: Valid questions.
TAPPER: OK.
LANZA: And one of the technical things I want to correct. It's not a client list. You know Epstein was --
TAPPER: There is no client list.
LANZA: He wasn't a pimp. You know. These were predator's list that we're talking about.
TAPPER: Right.
LANZA: And there's a victims list. But at the end of the day, I think what you saw today was Trump looking for a release valve. So Todd Blanche, you know, he works at the authority of the president, discretion of the president. This is clearly a valid issue that he's risen to the level of, hey, I need somebody serious to go down there and have these discussions, but where is the release valve?
I mean, I still don't see it. Maybe I've said in the past, maybe you present yourself or Bondi or somebody writes the memo of how they were going to present the criminal conviction related to Epstein and drop whatever names they can through that process. But people at this point want names. And I think Trump and his administration are in a position of protecting the elite. And that's never a good place.
Now, I'll say this. The base is less interested this week than last week. I mean, last week it was -- everybody was calling. I was getting people who hadn't heard from since 2016. This week they sort of moved the issue. So it's becoming more and more of a media play.
TAPPER: So you think --
LANZA: That's because it works.
TAPPER: These incremental developments are actually helping with the base at least?
LANZA: Yes. But it's certainly calmed it down.
TAPPER: Although, although MAGA congressmen are seem to be getting more uppity still like I mean, James Comer out there subpoenaing the Justice Department for records and also the deposition of Ghislaine Maxwell.
Xochitl, Senator Markwayne Mullin, Republican of Oklahoma, one of President Trump's strongest defenders on Capitol Hill, he blocked a resolution from Senator Ruben Gallego, Democrat of Arizona, to release the Epstein files. And here is part of his explanation. He's tying it in with all the other previous attempts to go after Donald Trump. The impeachments, the prosecutions and the like. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): I'm sure that this investigation be handled much like other investigations into this administration that the Democrats have done over the last, I don't know, eight years? What we're simply wanting to do here is give them cover.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now I wasn't really sure if he said give them cover, meaning the Democrats, or give him cover, meaning Donald Trump. But what did you make of that?
HINOJOSA: Well, I think it's funny how the tables have turned here. And the whole reason why we're talking about this is because MAGA Republicans have wanted these Epstein files out for quite some time. The only reason Democrats are talking about it is the same reason that we've seen over the last few months is that this Justice Department continues to protect Donald Trump. And I think that there are real questions by Democrats about whether the Justice Department is independent. It has not been independent. And now you saw the "Wall Street Journal"
reporting from yesterday, where they talked about how Donald Trump was potentially mentioned and he was briefed about this. And so it's very clear to me that this Justice Department will go to great lengths to protect the president. They're not -- they don't care about the rule of law.
[17:25:01]
They care more about protecting the president, and I think that's why Democrats have questions.
TAPPER: So I think that the story is out there right now, in addition to MAGA wanting -- the MAGA base wanting this stuff released that they've been wanting for years to be released for two reasons. One of them is Pam Bondi And others in the administration, Kash Patel and others, saying this stuff is going to be released, saying it while in the administration this year, not previous years.
And two, Elon Musk, June 6th tweet during their breakup, Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Donald Trump is in the Epstein's files that's why they haven't been released. To me, those are the two reasons. And both of those are self-inflicted MAGA wounds.
LANZA: The -- I mean, Elon supercharged it because it was at the height of the fight. There was nothing else being covered except that Trump-Musk fight and that supercharged it. But no doubt about it that those two components play a huge role in it. But at the end of the day, there is a release valve here. You know, they've gone to the grand jury. The grand jury said no. Now, if you're part of the MAGA base, you can now sort of divert your energy to the grand jury and say, why is the grand jury protecting these folks?
TAPPER: Or the judge. Yes. Yes.
LANZA: Or the judge. You're correct. You also have, you know, the "Wall Street Journal" with their outrageous story that almost is too much --
TAPPER: About the birthday book.
LANZA: About the -- it's too much that allows Trump to sort of, you know, not divert attention, but say highlight these things. There are now more and more components to the chessboard that are popping up that are releasing the pressure, which is why you don't see it today, at least in MAGA world, as you saw this week before. But you certainly see the Dems picking it up. They smell blood in the water.
They're trying to figure out how to how to create a divide within the MAGA base. But that in itself is unifying the Republicans. They're saying we can't become tools of what the media and the Dems are trying to do, and split up this base. Trump is right. This is sort of, you know, unprecedented, we need to stop. So all these things in the end, you know, it probably ends up a wash.
TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. Coming up, the health of the U.S. economy as President Trump keeps up
his criticism of the Fed chair. The interest rates really need to come down as President Trump insists. I'm going to get a billionaire's perspective next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:31:01]
TAPPER: In our "Money Lead," President Trump's visit to the Federal Reserve headquarters today was borne from his continuing anger at Fed chair Jerome Powell's unwillingness so far to lower interest rates. Those closely watching the friction are warning that the value of the dollar could be at risk.
Joining us now is one of those voices, Ray Dalio, who's a global macro investor who anticipated many of the financial crises the world has faced. He's the founder of the hedge fund Bridgewater Associates and the author of the brand new book, "How Countries Go Broke: The Big Cycle," which is out now.
And Ray, in this book, you have an analogy for the relationship among a country's government, its bank and its debt. You write, "To me, money and credit are the lifeblood of the economy. The central government is like the brain that directs how the system works. The central bank is like the heart that produces and pumps money and through the system."
What is your take on President Trump pushing the Fed chair to lower interest rates in terms of the good of the health of the economy as you -- as you speak of it?
RAY DALIO, FOUNDER, BRIDGEWATER ASSOCIATES: It's mostly about the store hold of wealth aspects of money. You know, there's a balance. If you lower interest rates too much, then the creditor will get a bad return and if you have interest rates too high, then it's bad for the debtor. And there's a balance. And always governments want -- the political system wants the stimulation. Provide credit and with the providing of the credit everybody is happy because things go up, but they go up as you accumulate a lot of debt.
And now we're in a situation where the government has such a large amount of debt and has a problem facing that debt, paying that debt, and so naturally, there's a pressure to lower those interest rates. And we're now in a different political environment in which the separation is being called into question because of the desire to lower those interest rates, to lower debt service, which is a problem as a store hold of wealth, as it doesn't provide a high enough return.
So that balance is being called into question when you also have the independence being called into question.
TAPPER: So President Trump recently passed, with the help of the Republican Congress, the so-called One Big Beautiful Bill Act, his domestic economic agenda. The Congressional Budget Office projects it could add $3.3 trillion to the federal deficit over the next decade because of the continuation of these tax cuts. And actually, I think the 10-year projection of debt is still something like $20 trillion more in debt, even more.
Based on the conversations you've had, with leaders in Washington, Republicans and Democrats, what are your thoughts now that that bill is a law in addition to the $9 billion in additional spending cuts with -- against USAID and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting?
DALIO: The economics of a country are the same as the economics of an individual or the economics of a country -- of a company, except the government can print money and take money by taxes. So let's look at that. What we have is we're spending $7 trillion a year. This year we'll spend $7 trillion. We'll take in five. So we're spending 40 percent more money than we're taking in.
And we've accumulated a debt that's six times the amount of the money that we're taking in. As a result of that interest payments and debt service payments are adding up. And the way it works is like the circulatory system works. Credit as it goes through the system brings nutrients and buying power to different parts of the system. And if those -- that money is used to produce income, it's a healthy system because it pays, it pays the debt. But when it accelerates, it crowds out spending.
[17:35:01]
And so you're seeing that debt service interest crowding out spending. And that's the same as that circulatory system essentially having plaque in the circulatory system.
TAPPER: Yes, cholesterol. Right.
DALIO: You could see it happening. And as a result of that there's a supply-demand problem. As you mentioned, what happens is that $2 trillion a year is going to grow. And that's going to be nearly $25 trillion of new money that has to be sold. But in addition, we have to roll over the debt. And so we have that kind of a debt service problem.
There are things that can be done, but it's politics that's standing in the way. If right now the budget deficit is about 7 percent of GDP, it can be cut to about 4 percent of GDP, 3 percent or 4 percent. So there's an ability to do that. But in order to do that, it has to come from a little bit of everything. It has to come from a little bit of taxes, a little bit -- about 4 percent increase in taxes, essentially, 4 percent decrease in spending.
And if that's done, then there will be the equivalent of an interest rate cut, and that will be balanced. If we don't do that, we are going to have a supply-demand problem. And one can see that like a doctor looking at that plaque in the system, you can see that.
TAPPER: President Trump makes the argument that the tariffs that he's imposing, that the Fed says is the reason that they're not lowering interest rates because of all the instability and unsureness caused by the tariffs, that he says that those will help make up the revenue that the U.S. needs to fix the debt.
DALIO: Well, it's correct that the tariffs, if done correctly, will bring in significant amount of tax revenue. I would estimate about $300 billion a year and over 10 years that's $3 trillion. And that's significant. And part of that is also paid for by the foreigners who are exporting. There's some merit to that. But we have a problem nonetheless in terms of this supply-demand situation. It's not going to be enough to deal with that situation.
And if we don't deal with it soon, then that increase in the amount of debt that will be experienced will end up causing that problem. It's a political problem. I was in Washington speaking to members of Congress on both sides and Senate and the House and pretty much everybody agrees on the supply-demand and the issue. But it's a political problem. What I was told is essentially now politics are such that you have to make a pledge, at least one of two pledges, and that pledge is, I pledge not to raise your taxes.
TAPPER: Right.
DALIO: And-or, I pledge not to cut your benefits. And with those pledges, those political pledges, and both sides exerting a lot of pressure to do that, there's not going to be a resolution of that unless there's some bipartisan commission or something that might happen later, but unlikely, I don't think.
TAPPER: I agree. There was one called the Bowles-Simpson Commission that everybody abandoned after it was done.
Ray, it would be great to have you come back, not just when you're -- when you're talking about a book, I hope -- I hope you'll come back and talk more about this incredibly important issue.
DALIO: Thank you. Of course.
TAPPER: The book one more time, it's called "How Countries Go Broke: The Big Cycle" by Ray Dalio. It's available now. Thanks so much for joining.
Coming up, the White House response as the creators of "South Park" strike $1 billion deal with Paramount and then drop a season premiere that mocks President Trump and the very company that is writing their paycheck, Paramount. But first, an urgent humanitarian crisis unfolding halfway around the world. Exactly why can more food not get into Gaza? The desperation unfolding as malnutrition sets in across the region.
Stay with us.
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[17:43:28]
TAPPER: We're back with our "World Lead." Quote, "People in Gaza are neither dead nor alive. They are walking corpses," unquote. That from a United Nations worker today about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians unable to get food. The humanitarian toll is now so dire that the leaders of the U.K., France and Germany plan to hold an emergency call tomorrow.
More now from CNN's Jeremy Diamond, and a warning you may find images in this report disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are no bullet holes or shrapnel wounds marking this man's body. His bears the signs of a far more silent killer, starvation. At 41 years old, Mohammed al Hassanat (PH) is one of at least 45 Palestinians who have died of malnutrition in just the last week, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry, an entirely manmade humanitarian crisis in Gaza now reaching unprecedented levels.
The question now is not whether starvation will claim more lives, but who will be its next victim. Most food stocks have run dry. Malnutrition cases are skyrocketing, and there is only so much. Gaza's under-resourced hospitals can do.
At one of the few soup kitchens still serving meals, the growing desperation of Gaza's population of more than two million is clear as day. 28 Western nations, more than 100 humanitarian aid organizations, and top U.N. officials have all said Israeli policies are to blame for the starvation crisis now unfolding.
[17:45:03]
That's because Israel imposed a total siege of Gaza between March and May, and since then, Israeli restrictions on the entry and distribution of aid have snowballed into an utterly avoidable disaster.
DR. TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, WHO DIRECTOR-GENERAL: I don't know what you would call it other than mass starvation, and it's manmade. And that's very clear. And this is because of blockade.
DIAMOND: Israel denies it is using starvation as a weapon, pointing to hundreds of aid trucks inside Gaza awaiting U.N. pickup. The U.N. says Israeli authorities have repeatedly failed to authorize safe routes to pick up those stockpiles.
But the reality of starvation is impossible to deny, including for Israeli news channels, which rarely broadcast such images.
Fadia Abu Namuz (PH) has been in line since 6:00 a.m., hoping to fill a pot of lentil soup to feed the nine members of her family.
"We've had enough of starvation and oppression, enough of staying in the streets like dogs where no one looks at us, where we can't find anything for our children to eat or drink."
Signs of hunger are everywhere in Gaza. This man collapsed while sifting through the wreckage of the latest Israeli offensive. He says he hasn't eaten anything lately but scraps of bread. Moments later, his body gives out on him again. He is simply too weak to go on.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: Our thanks to Jeremy Diamond for that report.
We'll be right back.
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[17:50:53]
TAPPER: A "Pop Culture Lead" now.
A shocking moment of subversiveness on corporate television. Right after inking a $1.5 billion deal with Paramount Plus to stream their cartoon "South Park," the show's creators debuted a new season and took aim at the very man Paramount has been trying to curry favor with because of its pending lucrative merger. And that man, President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, a lot of your supporters are starting to turn against you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell them to take a rest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, can you please talk to them? They're really riled up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Give me that. Hey, relax, guy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, hi. What do you think you're doing? Our children are being told that they have to sit with Jesus at lunchtime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, buddy, you just need to relax. All this protesting makes me look bad. Just take a rest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, we're not going to give it a rest. All the people here in South Park want some goddam answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, then I'm going to sue your whole town. You got that? $5 billion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Since its 1997 cable debut, "South Park" has been going after every sacred cow imaginable. Last night's episode took swipes at President Trump and at the network's parent company, Paramount Global.
Let's bring in Asawin Suebsaeng, senior political reporter at "Rolling Stone."
Asawin, good to see you. So the White House gave CNN the same statement they sent to you on this episode. It reads in part, quote, "The left's hypocrisy truly has no end. For years, they have come after 'south Park' for what they labeled as offensive content, but suddenly they are praising the show." The White House goes on to say, "The show hasn't been relevant for over 20 years, and is hanging on by a thread," and they add, quote, "President Trump has delivered on more promises in just six months than any other president in our country's history, and no fourth rate show can derail President Trump's hot streak," unquote.
Now, the episode aired fairly late last night, 10:00 Eastern. Yet it was all the buzz at the White House this morning, you say.
ASAWIN SUEBSAENG, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, ROLLING STONE: Yes. Isn't it great, Jake, that this is the way in which our tax dollars are being put to work, the way that the West Wing and the Trump White House have actually made, even for a number of hours, the morning, it's a priority for them to wage something of a small war on a Comedy Central animated sitcom.
Look, the Trump White House is doing this and putting their names to these types of communications against "South Park" because Donald Trump is their boss and President Trump sees it as a priority for not just him, but sectors of the federal government to help him wage his wars against popular culture elements in the United States that he doesn't like and that are critical or hyper critical of him.
He's had these sort of intense pop culture fixations for decades preceding his presidency. But six months into his second administration, they have not abated. It may be -- please.
TAPPER: No, keep going.
SUEBSAENG: Well, I mean, it may seem a little bit tempting to try to sort of shrug these things off, as we sometimes do, because this is the White House and the president of the United States being catty about some of his critics on television. It's something that Trump has been doing for decades. However, we've been trying to report out these stories at "Rolling Stone" in the context of this is legitimately as weird and as silly as it may sometimes sound to say out loud.
It's legitimately a part of him and his administration's broader campaign. An increasingly authoritarian crackdown heavy campaign against his enemies in all kinds of parts of American life.
TAPPER: Yes.
SUEBSAENG: This is parcel for the same president who will threaten literal criminal investigations against rock star Bruce Springsteen for speaking out against him all the while we may think that that or his crusade against Rosie O'Donnell is some big joke, but it's happening in the same context where he ordered, via executive order, his Department of Justice to open up what looked like completely bogus criminal investigation against enemies of his like Chris Krebs, who committed no crime except to say --
TAPPER: Right. SUEBSAENG: -- the election in 2020 was not stolen from Donald Trump.
TAPPER: So we should -- we should --
SUEBSAENG: So these things are not happening --
TAPPER: We should note that the -- what we just showed, that little clip, was the tamest thing in that "South Park" episode having to do with President Trump.
[17:55:03]
There was a lot rougher stuff, but the context here of Paramount settling this, you know, very derided, much derided lawsuit against "60 Minutes" and then CBS canceling "The Colbert Show," et cetera. I mean, that is a broader context. I think it's pretty gutsy that Trey Parker and Matt Stone did this.
SUEBSAENG: Yes, and it's happening when Trump and his government are openly saying they will mess up your business or mess up your billion- dollar merger if you don't do what we say, or if you tick off the president of the United States too much. And now there's talent at a company that is controlled by Paramount Global, or has a deal with Paramount Global, that is willing to stick their thumb in the eye of the president and the White House, who is saying we could destroy your parent company's lives if we feel like it.
These are not things that we were raised in our high schools in recent decades to believe that a president of the United States, the leader of the free world, is allowed to do.
TAPPER: Yes. Asawin Suebsaeng, good to see you as always, sir. Thanks so much.
Coming up next, a super awkward moment last hour as President Trump confronted Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell about the price of renovations at the Federal Reserve's headquarters.
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