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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Jamaica's Prime Minister Says, Hurricane Melissa Will Bring Catastrophic Damage; Oversight Democrats Call Biden Autopen Report a Sham; Lawmakers Stare Down SNAP Benefit Deadline As Shutdown Drags On; Biden's White House Press Secretary Says Party Betrayed Biden; Pentagon Says New Netflix Nuclear Missile Thriller Is Deceptive. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 28, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, it's being called the storm of the century, Hurricane Melissa making landfall this afternoon as a Category 5 storm inundating towns in Jamaica, flooding, roads and bridges, bringing down power lines, cutting off most forms of communication. We're going to check in with our reporters and others across the island.

Plus, in his final days in the White House, President Biden pardoned people he thought Trump may target, including Dr. Anthony Fauci, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. But now Republicans are claiming that those pardons are void. We heard the GOP explanation for their report last hour. In minutes, we're going to have a Democrat respond.

And it is the top film on Netflix today. It's a thriller that explores the crisis that would unfold if a nuclear missile were launched at the United States. House of Dynamite is a great film. It's a work of fiction. So, why is the Pentagon even talking about it? We're going to talk to the film screenwriter, the immensely talented former journalist, Noah Oppenheim,

The Lead, tonight we are beginning to get glimpses of the devastation in Jamaica as Hurricane Melissa, currently a powerful Category 5 storm, makes its way across the island after making landfall as a Category 5 this afternoon. A Jamaican official telling CNN that schools, homes, and hospitals are all affected, another officials saying some of Jamaica's main food producing regions are being battered, and we are getting reports of widespread internet outages, flooded roads and bridges.

As Melissa's center is moving off land, its winds and rain and storm surge are still slamming Jamaica, including slamming popular tourist areas on the northern coast. Next, the hurricane will take direct aim at Cuba, making landfall there sometime overnight.

CNN's Derek Van Dam joins us on the phone from Kingston, Jamaica. Derek, how quickly are conditions worsening there?

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Look, Jake, we're in for the long haul here in Kingston. We've just been battered by very powerful winds, not equivalent to what they've experienced on the western side of the country, but enough to really make things very challenging across the nation's capital.

We've seen limited amounts of damage but, you know, traffic lights are generally out. You know, there's power that is flickering throughout this city. And, you know, we saw a couple of billboards that were turned over with power lines, you know, leaning on their side and some minor street flooding.

But I think what's really important to convey to our viewers right now is the infrastructure and the demands that will be put on this already vulnerable in infrastructure. Let's just put it this way. Gasoline will become, you know, a very important commodity for this island nation. Gas stations in Kingston are completely closed, you know? So, people are going to have to navigate that added dimension of the storm recovery going forward.

Tonight is going to be a challenging night for you know, the 3 million residents that call this place home. And we know that the western parishes, St. Elizabeth Parish, you know, taking the brunt of the most catastrophic winds, but the infrastructure and the roads that will be impassable will just make this recovery effort so challenging, getting aids and need, the personnel to the locations. This is going to be a humanitarian disaster and it is still unfolding and will continue to unfold in the days to come. Jake?

TAPPER: Derek Van Dam in Kingston, Jamaica, thank you. Stay safe.

Let's check in with Journalist and Documentarian Jonathan Petramala. He's in Mandeville, Jamaica. It's about 45 miles east of where Melissa made landfall.

And, Jonathan, when we spoke yesterday, you cover natural disasters like this. You've covered hurricanes, but you said you've never covered one as for forecast to be quite as bad as Melissa.

[18:05:00]

What does it look like from your vantage point so far?

JONATHAN PETRAMALA, JOURNALIST AND DOCUMENTARIAN: I think the one thing we have to get out there right now is that no one really has seen the absolute worst of what this storm has done here on the island of Jamaica. The wind field was compact enough that it was like a buzz saw coming on shore, but it's so difficult with the terrain, the road system here combined with the mountains and the trees, and just the amount of wind speed we are looking at with this storm, again, one of the most powerful hurricanes ever to make landfall in recorded history.

And so we can't get that far west to see exactly what this storm has done. But we know with wind speeds that that storm is bringing, the angle of approach with the storm surge it brought to that southern coast and the vulnerability that exists there, there is absolutely some human tragedy that is occurring and it's going to take a massive effort to clear the roads, to get aid to the people as quickly as possible. Time is of the essence.

TAPPER: How serious do you think the situation is compared to other disasters you've covered?

PETRAMALA: I mean, you can imagine being isolated from everything. You are not having any sort of communication, and oftentimes in disasters like these, Jake, the not knowing is some of the worst part, because family members are not able to communicate with other family members and they see, and they hear what the worst case scenarios are. And so that makes the imagination run wild.

And so it becomes very, very stressful as people wait and see, and even if people prepare, the storm was like an EF-5 tornado. The winds were that powerful. And so when you think about an EF-5 tornado, what's the only way to survive one of those? A concrete bunker underground.

So, there's going to be a lot of infrastructure that we're going to see some homes and buildings that are just going to be shredded by the powerful winds that Hurricane Melissa brought on shore. And so even if people had prepared with water and food, it's not even certain 100 percent that their shelter was able to survive the impact of that storm.

So, we're going to be eventually, hopefully tomorrow or within the day or next day or so when we are able to reach that part of the island, the western part of Jamaica. It's going to be a scene that is going to open a lot of eyes because here in the eastern parts of Jamaica, it's a whole different story where people are able to get outside, they're able to kind of take a breath, that the storm has missed them and they haven't seen the worst of the impacts. It's a completely different story on the western side of Jamaica.

TAPPER: Have you talked to anybody in the western side? Have you talked to anybody riding out the storm there, going through the worst of it?

PETRAMALA: As close as we were able to reach was around the middle part of the island. And there, folks were in the middle of flash flooding. It was all hands on deck, panic mode in terms of the flash flooding combined with hurricane force winds. So, you had trees falling over, power lines being knocked down, power poles as well, signs being ripped away. We shot roofs being ripped off of houses as well. And, again, that was a few dozen miles away from the strongest winds of Hurricane Melissa.

So, it's really difficult when you're in the middle of a storm like this to be able to communicate with people out on the street like I normally am able to do because, you know, it's survival mode at that point. And you're trying to -- you have your head on the swivel trying to make sure you're not putting yourself in any danger.

People were trying to get out there to clear the roadways as much as possible because there is a limited roadway system in the western part, in the central part of Jamaica. And so guys with machetes are out there chopping the trees, trying to move them off the road so people can get around.

And people were. People were driving around they were either changing where their shelter was, they're looking for family members, they're trying to check on friends and loved ones. So, it's a very difficult situation when you're in a storm like this and it's also very easy to panic as well, and you do see that often.

TAPPER: Jonathan Petramala in Mandeville, Jamaica, thank you, stay safe.

Much more on our breaking news this hour, Hurricane Melissa lashing Jamaica with torrential winds and rains, we are already seeing reports of extensive damage on parts of the island. The storm is set to bear down in Cuba, next.

Plus, last hour, you heard the House Oversight Committee chairman, James Comer, explaining why he thinks some former President Biden's pardons are now void. A Democrat from the House Oversight Committee is going to respond in just moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:10:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, the House Oversight Committee Democrats are calling the Republicans' investigation into President Biden's autopen usage a sham after the Republican-led committee alleged in its report that there was a cover-up of Biden's cognitive decline and sent a letter to the Justice Department saying that legal consequences are warranted. Ranking Democrat on the committee, Robert Garcia, says, aides testified that Biden fully executed his duties and authorized every executive order pardon and use of the autopen.

Let's bring in Democratic Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, who sits on the committee. Congresswoman, the conclusion of this 93 page report hinges on the lack of written approval traceable to the president's own consent when it comes to these pardons and highlight staffers confusion about the paper flow. Democrats drew their own conclusions. What evidence are you pointing to that refutes this report?

REP. MELANIE STANSBURY (D-NM): Well, Jake, thank you so much for having me on. I have to say that I am deeply disturbed that this is a lead story on national network television tonight, as we are four days away from 42 million Americans losing food assistance as literally the White House is building a $300 million ballroom, and they are choosing to cut off food assistance and SNAP to 42 million Americans. They are going to let seniors, children, veterans, and millions of Americans starve, and this is what we're covering?

So, let me just say this. The bizarre obsession that House Republicans have with Biden is exactly that.

[18:15:01]

He is not even president right now. Donald Trump is president. He is literally overseas. He is not trying to reopen the government. He is not trying to feed the American people. He is not trying to deal with the healthcare crisis, and he literally was being led around a ballroom by the Japanese prime minister last night in the apparent confusion that he himself is unable to perform the duties as the duly elected president.

So, I have to say, I'm disturbed to hear that this is even a story as most of our country is literally in crisis right now.

TAPPER: So, I actually do have questions for you about the cuts to the SNAP program and the fact that 42 million Americans will not have food stamp coverage as of Saturday, and we covered it yesterday and I covered it earlier today, and we're going to cover it tomorrow as well, but this is a report from the House Oversight Committee, the majority, and I talked to the chairman of the committee who suggested that more legislation would be needed to outline exactly who a president should be able to grant a pardon to. Is that something that you think both parties could agree upon?

STANSBURY: Well, I think first of all, the house needs to come back in session. Mike Johnson has now canceled the House of Representatives for 39 straight days. We are in day 28 of a House shutdown. They are literally not here. The president is overseas, as I just said, and they're about to cut off food assistance to millions of Americans. And so I think it's bizarre that Chairman Comer is going on T.V. talking about an investigation into a former president who's not even a sitting president over a non-issue while literally Americans are about to starve.

TAPPER: So, the reason that SNAP is running out of funding, I understand there's a disagreement about the contingency plan, and whether that --

STANSBURY: It's not a disagreement. Literally, Congress approved money for this scenario. The White House is choosing to let Americans go without --

TAPPER: Well, the Agriculture Department argues that the contingency funds $6 billion is there for natural disaster. I know that that's disputed. But if you are so concerned about SNAP funds running out, why not ask Democrats in the Senate to vote to open up the government and then the SNAP funding would go? I mean, that's -- I understand the dispute about the contingency fund, and that's a real dispute and that's $6 billion that could fund the SNAP program for two to three more weeks. But if we're actually talking about long-term, why not have Senate Democrats to vote to open up the government?

STANSBURY: Well, so, first of all, I filed legislation in the House of Representatives today, even though Mike Johnson has shut down the House, there are pro forma sessions happening on the House floor, and today I filed the SNAP-backed legislation that would force the administration to release those funds to not cut off EBT cards to millions of Americans, and that would reimburse states and tribes. So, I'm doing my part here in the House. But I cannot vote for a bill until it comes to the House and Mike Johnson has shut down the House and the president is nowhere to be found. Now I'm a former OMB official, and I can tell you that OMB is breaking the law right now. Congress has appropriated the dollars and state attorney generals have filed suit today in federal court to compel the administration to release those funds because they are breaking the law. And we know that they know that they're breaking the law because just a couple of weeks ago, they move funds into WIC to save WIC, but they think that they can use the hunger of children to try to leverage Democrats rather than feeding 42 million Americans. And we're not going to stand for it. We're going to sue them. We're going to use the courts, we're going to use Congress, and we're going to do everything we can at the community level to make sure that Americans can put food on the table this weekend, and we're not going to stand for this.

TAPPER: Should the Democratic senators from New Mexico, your home state, vote to open the government so that these SNAP funds are not at risk?

STANSBURY: Let me be clear, the administration is choosing to starve American children with money that they already have appropriated.

TAPPER: I'm not applauding their tactics.

STANSBURY: This is the choice by the White House. This is a choice by the White House. They are choosing to cut out food assistance.

TAPPER: Congresswoman, this is also a choice by Senate Democrats to not it vote to open the government. Yes, it is. I understand why they're doing it. They're doing it because they want Medicaid funds restored. They're doing it because they want Obamacare premiums to be extended past the end of the year. I understand the reasoning.

STANSBURY: Sir, let me just be clear, the money for contingency plans is sitting there. That is why the states are suing. The White House is withholding funds from children --

TAPPER: Yes, it's two to three weeks worth of SNAP funds, yes.

STANSBURY: Yes. Well, it may not be a big deal to you, but --

TAPPER: It is a big deal to me.

STANSBURY: -- but (INAUDIBLE) for the grandparents that literally are feeding their children.

TAPPER: My point is that it's a short-term solution. It's a short-term --

STANSBURY: It doesn't matter. At the end of the day, people need to be able to feed their families, and Saturday is when those funds run out.

[18:20:02]

TAPPER: If you feel so strongly, Congresswoman, why not ask funding the Senate Democrats from New Mexico to vote to open the government so that the SNAP funds -- STANSBURY: Sir, I am here in the House of Representatives. It is shut down. I am fighting to get the government reopened. I am fighting to get funding, put back into SNAP that is already existent and I am fighting for the American people. I am here. But show me a single Republican that is here. Not a single one is here to make sure that Americans are fed on Saturday. That is why I am here.

TAPPER: Democratic Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury from New Mexico, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Our next guest went to Jamaica for vacation and ended up stranded there as one of the most powerful hurricanes in history made landfall. We're going to head back to Jamaica to see how she's holding up as the monster storm unleashes on the island.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Back with our breaking news, Hurricane Melissa is a powerful Category 5 storm.

[18:25:00]

It's now slamming Jamaica's northern coast where many popular tourist resorts are located.

Let's check in with Debra Shields. Deborah's a tourist who's currently at a seaside resort that's 15 minutes outside of Montego Bay. She tried to make it home, but her flight was canceled, so she's stuck riding out the storm.

Deborah, what are conditions like right now where you are? Do you feel safe?

DEBRA SHIELDS, TOURIST STRANDED IN JAMAICA: Yes, I feel safe personally. It's still really windy where we are and it's raining, so, yes, it's still not over. We didn't quite finish it yet, but it's definitely quieted down since earlier.

TAPPER: I've been to Montego Bay and that whole part of Jamaica's so gorgeous. You're traveling with a group of 16 people. How's everyone handling this so far? Do you think you're going to have enough food and drinkable water to ride out whatever situation is going to present itself once the storm passes?

SHIELDS: I definitely believe we'll have enough water. Probably not enough food, but I think they're going to start opening up one of the banquet halls and letting people get food pretty soon shortly this evening. So, we're so grateful for that. We're so hungry. We've been eating chips and crackers all day, so we're really hungry, so we're grateful.

TAPPER: So, you're from Houston, that's a city that has hurricanes hit on occasion. Have you ever experienced anything like this one though?

SHIELDS: Nothing like this. The worst hurricane that I've ever been a part of was Hurricane Harvey in 2017. And this, by far, does not even compare. I think being right on the coast definitely amped that up and it being a Category 5, because Harvey was a 4.

The wind that I've experienced, I've never heard or felt anything like that in my life, the wind was so strong. We now have a crack in the door in the room. Trees are uprooted. Everything's off the roof. The resort is a little messed up. Hopefully, they can get it fixed, you know, in time to start welcoming future guests in, but, yes, it did a little bit of damage over here.

TAPPER: Is your window there or is it boarded up?

SHIELDS: No, they didn't board up any of the guest room windows, some of the main dining rooms. So, no, it's right here.

TAPPER: All right.

SHIELDS: It's right here.

TAPPER: Well, Debra Shields, we're thinking about you. We're praying for you. Thank you so much and stay safe.

SHIELDS: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: More staffing problems are expected at airports across the U.S. tonight as air traffic controllers miss their first full paycheck. We're live at Washington's Reagan airport. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, more staffing shortages are expected at airports this evening as air traffic controllers miss their first paycheck because of this federal government shutdown. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy says some controllers have called in sick in protest while others are calling out so they can work other jobs to make money.

CNN's Pete Muntean has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To end of shutdown for traffic controllers.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice over): From LAX in Los Angeles to New York's LaGuardia, air traffic controllers are taking to airport curbside calling for the government shutdown to end.

PETE LEFEVRE, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: It's frustration. It's disappointment.

MUNTEAN: Pete LaFerve is one of 10,000 controllers who just received their first $0 paycheck of this shutdown. He's still showing up to the tower at Dulles International Airport in Virginia, while his wife, also a federal worker, isn't getting paid either.

LEFEVRE: You just don't know how long this is going to go. So, right now, when you don't know when your next check is going to come, you have to make tough choices.

MUNTEAN: Controllers are handing out these leaflets at airports nationwide, their latest effort to remind travelers they're still working without pay.

Since the shutdown began, FAA air traffic facilities have seen more than 275 staffing shortages, more than four times the number from a year ago.

NICK DANIELS, PRESIDENT, NATIONA AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION: The anger is at level ten.

MUNTEAN: Nick Daniels heads the union of controllers.

DANIELS: I'm going to work right now and I'm thinking about how do I pay my rent. Rent's due in a few days. How do I put food on the table? How do I put, you know, gas in my car just to show up to work? And those are levels of safety that are being reduced in the system and the flying public doesn't deserve.

MUNTEAN: The frustration is being felt by passengers too now caught in the middle of delays.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People need to be able to work and they need to be able to get paid for their work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I do feel for them and for everybody who's not getting paid and still having to work, because they need to get money to bring food to their families.

MUNTEAN: At a news conference Tuesday, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said nearly half of Sunday's 8,000 delays were caused by air traffic control staffing shortages with L.A. and Atlanta emerging as new hotspots for controllers calling out sick.

SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: Almost every controller can't make it two paychecks. They can't make it without two paychecks.

MUNTEAN: In his 16 years as a controller, this is not Pete LeFerve's first government shutdown, but he says hopefully it's his last.

LEFEVRE: My air traffic control, just by the nature of the job, is very stressful. Adding on the financial uncertainty of not knowing when I'm going to be paid again adds, you know, an extra layer of stress onto an already stressful job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MUNTEAN (on camera): Thankfully, delays today have remained low, even though the Federal Aviation Administration has warned of staffing shortages today in Dallas, in Denver, in Atlanta, and Newark. The FAA administrator, Brian Bedford, just sent out a memo to all 46,000 workers of the Federal Aviation Administration to warn as this shutdown drags into a fourth week, there could be even more air traffic control related delays. By the way, Jake, the rhetoric from the Trump administration has not really changed on this and Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said one more time today that he puts the blame for this shutdown on Democrats, like Chuck Schumer, even though it is Republicans who control the House, the Senate, and the White House. Jake?

TAPPER: Pete Muntean at the Washington's Reagan National Airport, thanks so much.

Also in our Politics Lead, a fervent call for an end to the government shutdown, which is now in its 28th day, the president of the American Federation of Government Employees, which is the country's largest union for federal workers, 800,000 members, wrote in a new op-ed, quote, it's time for our leaders to start focusing on how to solve problems for the American people rather than on who is going to get the blame for a shutdown.

[18:35:12]

And that union president, Everett Kelley, joins me now. Everett, thanks as much for joining us once again. Good to see you.

So, earlier today, the Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, rejected your plea to pass a short-term funding bill. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I told him we can do both and we need to do both, both have federal workers get paid in every way and negotiate a way to resolve the American's pain in the healthcare crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now that last part, the resolve American's pain in the healthcare crisis of ref is a reference to what Democrats say they are fighting for here in refusing to reopen the government. They want Republicans to extend Obamacare credits so people can afford health insurance, that those credits expire at the end of the year. Do you accept his response?

EVERETT KELLEY, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES: Well, this is the thing. You know, I think that it's vitally important to have healthcare for everyone. I think that is absolutely American. However, I don't think that this should be built on the backs of federal employees who are hardworking employees providing service for the American people.

TAPPER: So, your labor union has strong connections with Democrats. Can you describe what conversations you've had with Democrats, like Senator Schumer or others, about ending the shutdown?

KELLEY: Well, from the very beginning, they've always known my position. I've never supported a government shutdown. They've known that from the very beginning, and those are the sentiments that I've shared with all of the leadership. TAPPER: Prior to the shutdown, you called on Republicans to negotiate with Democrats to avoid the shutdown. Today, you're calling for Democrats to vote for the clean C.R., the continuing resolution, the government funding bill, which would not include what Schumer wants to include and the other Senate Democrats, the Obamacare premiums.

Democrats might say, or somebody watching might say, you're effectively siding with Republicans on this issue. What would you say to that?

KELLEY: I would say that I'm not siding with anyone on this issue because it has nothing -- my position has nothing to do with politics. My position has to do with the 800,000 federal employees that I represent. And to see them standing in food lines hungry, you know, says that something need to be done and it need to be done quickly. And the only way to resolve that is to end the shutdown.

TAPPER: To open the government.

KELLEY: Absolutely.

TAPPER: Speaking of hunger, 42 million Americans are at risk of losing out on the food stamp or SNAP program, Special Nutritional Assistance Program. Here is Manu Raju asking Republican Senator from Missouri Josh Hawley if the president should step in when it comes to the lack of funding for food stamps or SNAP. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): This is Congress' fault, not his fault. This is Congress' fault. So, when it comes to SNAP, the only solution here is we need to appropriate the money. I mean, that even if he could put a band aid on it, it would not -- he couldn't pay all of it. And so we need to appropriate the money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, one of the reasons that Manu was asking about that is because there's this SNAP contingency fund that the Department of Agriculture has. And there was a memo as recently as September 30th saying the contingency fund could be used to pay for SNAP even the event of a government shutdown. But the Department of Agriculture has since taken that memo away and said, that's no longer their position. Those funds are only for natural disasters. What do you think about all that?

KELLEY: Well, I think that, you know, this whole fiasco need to be resolved. It need to be ended. And people need to do their job, right? And if people are doing their job, guess what? America wouldn't be hungry. Guess what? Federal employees wouldn't be standing in lines to get food. People just need to do their job.

TAPPER: So, is your message right now to Democrats in the Senate open to reopen the government and then get back to work? Is that what you're saying? KELLEY: Absolutely. I'm saying that the American workforce should be at work. Providing the services for the American people, and in the process, they should get paid because they're just like the rest of America. 65 percent of America live from paycheck to paycheck. And when these employees are providing the services for the American people, they should get paid so that they can make sure that a single mom that I've talked to over the course of their last few weeks, that need to make sure that they have child childcare taken care of, or they need medication. You know, mortgages are due, you know, they need gas to put in their car to go to work. So, sure, I'm saying that it needs to be resolved and it needs to be resolved now.

TAPPER: You know what, government employees get paid during shutdowns?

KELLEY: They don't get paid anything.

TAPPER: No, but some do, members of the House and Senate.

KELLEY: Yes, the ones that are AWOL (ph).

TAPPER: The members of the House and Senate get paid.

Everett Kelley, thanks so much.

Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene once again lasting the GOP over its shutdown strategy. How she's talking to Speaker Johnson and taking him to task today, that's next.

[18:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our Politics Lead now, 28 days and counting of this government shutdown, Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's relentless chastising of her fellow Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson is on full display once again today. This afternoon on a House GOP conference call, Greene claims she ripped into Speaker Johnson and her party on Twitter or X. She wrote, quote, I demanded to know from Speaker Johnson what the Republican plan for healthcare is to build the off-ramp off Obamacare and the Obamacare or ACA tax credits to make health insurance affordable for Americans, unquote.

My panel joins me now. Katie Miller, what do you make of Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene breaking ranks with her party throughout this shutdown?

KATIE MILLER, HOST, THE KATIE MILLER PODCAST: It's always nice to see somebody change their mind, especially a politician. I would encourage other Senate Democrats to do the same. In the wake of their continuous no votes to keep the government shut down and closed and to prevent millions of Americans from receiving their SNAP benefits next week. So, if some other Democrat would have the courage to do the same thing Marjorie Taylor Greene would have, then we'd have an open government.

TAPPER: Karen? KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Look, I think what you're seeing is Marjorie Taylor Greene being kind of wedged between the Republican politics and her own voters, who probably are very soon, if they haven't already received letters from their health insurance companies.

[18:45:07]

A lot of -- the window has opened for the Affordable Care Act in a lot of states, so people can go into the exchanges and see how much their costs are going to go up. And I suspect she's probably hearing from constituents who are saying, wait a second, what are you doing about this? What is the plan for this?

And so, she's probably wedged between those politics, as a lot of members of Congress are, but they don't admit it publicly.

TAPPER: After the shutdown is over. This is an issue where Republicans are going to have to deal with.

MILLER: Why are Obamacare premiums higher? It's because there are illegal aliens and legal immigrants who are receiving health care at the cost of me and you, Jake. Who do you think is paying and picking up the tab for when a green card holder goes in to deliver their baby?

I know I pay lots of money. I just looked at what I paid for my daughter's surgery, $3,000. But if illegal immigrant went in the same way I did, they're paying zero dollars.

FINNEY: Well, if you have a green card, you are probably here legally. And I should think that if a woman was in labor, we would want to help her no matter what her status was.

But let's also remember that -- I mean, think about the fact that Republicans in congress were willing to find the money to extend the 2017 tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires, but were saying we can't find the money to extend subsidies for health care while we try to decide how do we fix the system so we don't need those subsidies. I mean, I think that's part of what is galling the American people is we can't find the money to help average Americans, but we can find the money to help millionaires and billionaires?

MILLER: You can find the money to help illegal aliens, 40 percent of illegal alien head of households are on are on health care that is being paid for by you and me right now.

FINNEY: No, they're not actually.

MILLER: They are.

FINNEY: They can't buy into the exchange actually.

MILLER: They are actually because what happens.

FINNEY: But again, I think if anybody comes into an E.R. with, you know, they're bleeding, I should hope no matter who they are we would want to help them.

TAPPER: I don't -- I don't know what this -- I don't know why insurance premiums are going up. I'm sure that some of it is uninsured people who are on the system. But I also wonder if there are enough controls when it comes to these premiums going up. I mean, that -- one of the reasons I think the White House has been against, at least purportedly, one of the reasons the White House has been against this extending the Obamacare subsidies is because they think it's a big giveaway to insurance companies, right?

I mean, that's what James Blair said, I think, the White House aide.

MILLER: Obamacare is a broken system from the first day it was passed. Why is premiums consistently going up? It's because it's filled with government regulations at the cost of, again, people like you and me. Private insurance is still going up again in our country. Yet at the same time, I'm not getting better health care.

TAPPER: Right.

FINNEY: Well, I'll tell you, if people are not able to afford their premiums and make the decision to just not have health care and then start going back to using emergency rooms as their health care, all of our costs are going to go up anyway.

TAPPER: Let's turn to another subject in a new book, former Biden White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre announces that she's leaving the Democratic Party. Her reasoning? It's unusual.

She says, quote, "I watched Democratic leadership abandon and in the end, betray a man who led our country through a pandemic at a time of historical, political turmoil," unquote.

"The Washington Post" had a really scathing review. I don't know if you read it. I do recommend it for everybody. In which they said, look, the only thing -- the reviewer, this is the reviewer, I'm paraphrasing, said something like, the only thing that the Democratic Party has done right in the last couple of years was forced Joe Biden off the ticket. And that's the reason why Karine Jean-Pierre is leaving the Democratic Party.

What's your overall suggestion or view of this?

FINNEY: You know, the thing that bothers me about her, this position that she's taken is, well, what is your plan to help the party? So you're saying -- because two things can be true. It can be true that you thought that Joe Biden did a good job getting us out of COVID. You thought that how he was treated was horrible.

But you also, I mean, as I believed he should not have been our nominee, and I wish others had been more honest about that earlier on. Like someone like a Karine Jean-Pierre who was supposedly very close to him.

But -- so, but to me, the real issue is if you're going to attack, then what is your -- what are your ideas? What are your ideas to make it better? Because it's easy to just say, I'm out. And that's what bothers me about this attitude.

TAPPER: What's your reaction to the book? I don't know if you've read it or read the reviews, but it must be just like popcorn for Republicans.

MILLER: I saw her interview this morning in "The New Yorker", if it came out today or yesterday. But what I think you're seeing and what Karine is attesting to, is that she is quite incompetent to do the job, right?

This is what Republicans have been saying for years now, is that she is just another evidence that DEI doesn't work, whether that's in the White House, in your press secretary role, or whether that's a, you know, an air traffic controller, an air pilot, whether that's your doctor, you know, you want to hire the best for the role, not just based on skin color.

Jake, why did she get the job over John Kirby?

FINNEY: Why are we assuming that she is a Black LGBT, you know, gay woman is DEI, but a white woman who is behind the podium right now? Which DEI initially started as affirmative action, which was about affirmative hiring women and minorities. Why is one DEI and the other is not?

MILLER: Why did she get the job over John Kkirby? Because as everyone has said this week, she is woefully incompetent.

FINNEY: She had the job long before John Kirby.

[18:50:01]

TAPPER: I will -- I will just say, she used to be a commentator on CNN. Then she was one on MSNBC and she was good at that. Like, I mean, without getting into the job, I thought she did as press secretary, I thought -- it didn't seem crazy to me because she was eloquent as a as a commentator.

MILLER: Why is she trained every four sentences to say she is a Black, queer, LGBTQ woman? Because that's how she's been promoted her entire career.

TAPPER: Anyway, Katie Miller and Karen Finney, thank you so much.

Why is the Pentagon taking issue with the top movie on Netflix right now? I'm going to ask the screenwriter behind the film, "A House of Dynamite". That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our pop culture lead, a new film streaming on Netflix called "A House of Dynamite" is sending up flares at the Pentagon. It's a nuclear disaster thriller.

It's exciting. I've seen it. It's really good.

[18:50:01]

It explores a nearly real time response to an imminent nuclear missile strike on the U.S., including not one but two failed attempts to stop said missile. Here's just a taste for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Approximately three minutes ago, we detected an ICBM over the Pacific. Current flight trajectory is consistent with impact somewhere in the continental United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we get this wrong, none of us are going to be alive tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no plan B.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did everything right, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's really good. It's really terrifying. And joining us now is Emmy Award winning writer and producer Noah Oppenheim.

Noah, you say you and Director Kathryn Bigelow, who did "The Hurt Locker", did an extraordinary amount of research for the movie. I want to read what the Pentagon put out in a recent memo obtained by CNN and have you respond.

NOAH OPPENHEIM, SCREENWRITER, "A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE": Yeah.

TAPPER: Quote, "The fictional interceptors in the movie, miss their target. And we understand this is intended to be part of a to be a compelling part of the drama intended for the entertainment -- emphasis is the Pentagon's -- intended for the entertainment of the audience. However, the following facts and results from real world testing tell a vastly different story about the actual GMD system currently on alert," unquote.

First of all, did you expect the Pentagon to give you any pushback?

OPPENHEIM: Well, I'd say we -- first and foremost, we welcome it. I mean, Kathryn and I made the movie to invite a conversation about an issue which we think is tremendously important and doesn't get enough attention, which is the fact that we have all these nuclear weapons that exist in the world and that pose a great threat to all mankind.

With all due respect to the Pentagon, they assert in that memo that our current missile defense system is 100 percent effective. This is not a debate between the Pentagon and us as filmmakers. Its become a debate between the pentagon and subject matter experts in missile defense. You know, Senator Ed Markey, retired General Doug Lute, folks like Tom Nichols who've covered this issue for "Slate", for "The Atlantic Magazine" for decades, Fred Kaplan, who covers it for "Slate", they've all come out since the Pentagon's memo was released --

TAPPER: Yeah.

OPPENHEIM: -- and said, this is preposterous. Our missile defense system is nowhere close to 100 percent.

TAPPER: A hundred percent. Always, always question anybody claiming you that any claim claiming anything is 100 percent.

You spoke of Democratic Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts. Let me quote from him. He wrote this opinion piece on "A House of Dynamite" saying, quote, "U.S. missile defenses against intercontinental weapons have succeeded only about 55 percent of the time under ideal conditions with known targets, no decoys, and perfectly timed launches." Adding, quote, "The system is brittle. A silver bullet defense is a fantasy".

And the subtitle of part two is "hitting a bullet with a bullet" in your show.

OPPENHEIM: Yeah.

TAPPER: Is that what you found in your research, that this stuff is actually not reliable?

OPPENHEIM: That is how missile defense experts refer to the challenge of intercepting an intercontinental ballistic missile. Senator Markey, in his essay, cites that 55 percent statistic. You know, it comes from an analysis by the APS, which is a nonpartisan group of physicists who are assessing -- who have assessed the challenge of intercepting these kinds of weapons.

This is an important conversation because it begs the question, how do we make ourselves safer? You know, President Trump has suggested we need to build a bigger, better missile defense system in the form of Iron Dome. You know, that is one way to approach it, if that's in fact, achievable.

The other way to approach it would be to reduce the number of these weapons that exist in the world, you know, New START the only remaining treaty we have with Russia to reduce our nuclear arsenal is set to expire after the first of the year. You know, negotiating a new arms reduction treaty is another step that President Trump could take.

But this is what we should be talking about. How do we make the country safer?

TAPPER: But of course, this movie is a thriller. It's exciting. It's not a lot of wonky talk. Like you and I are doing right now.

So, let me -- let me turn it back to the subject, because I already told you my favorite scene, but I'm going to tell everyone else. So there's this scene where all the important players from the White House and the military, they're on an emergency video conference call the national security advisor is getting like a colonoscopy or something, or and so the deputy national security advisor, is called to do this. He's walking to the office on the call, falling in, falling out. And

then, like, having to talk about the end of the world while trying to go through White House security and put his phone on the conveyor belt.

How did you come up with that? Did you go to the White House one day? Because I know you're a former journalist. See something like that happening and it inspired you?

OPPENHEIM: I never saw that specifically. But what I saw at the White House and the other government buildings I've been to is ordinary people trying to do their jobs under extreme pressure and extraordinary circumstances, and we wanted to depict that reality. These are just regular people.

TAPPER: Well, it's a great film. Congratulations. Noah Oppenheim, thank you so much for joining us.

This is a big day for CNN. We're now streaming in the U.S. this gives you another place to watch this show, THE LEAD. Or you can catch up later in the CNN app. There's a lot more to stream, see live raw feeds, exclusive reporting, award winning original series films, CNN.com/watch, CNN.com/watch.

I will see you tomorrow.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.