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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Hurricane Melissa Kills At Least 30 In The Caribbean As It Crosses The Bahamas; Trump Admin Actions Reject Accountability And Guardrails; Federal Appeals Court Blocks Order Requiring Border Patrol Chief To Report To Court Daily; Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO), Is Interviewed About CIA Cyberattacks On Maduro Regime Didn't Satisfy Trump During His First Term; Soon: Trump To Meet With Xi For High-Stakes Trade Talks; 2 Russians Sentenced To 25 Years For Plot To Kill Iranian Journalist. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 29, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:08]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. Thanks to my panel for being here. Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well. If you missed any of today's show, you can always stream The Arena Live. Catch up later in the CNN app. That's a little new. We also, of course, still have our podcast. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at The Arena CNN.

Jake Tapper is standing by for The Lead, both live and also on streaming.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I'm streaming right now. Right now.

HUNT: Look us both streaming together.

TAPPER: Can you tell. Can you tell? Thanks, Kasie. We'll see you back in The Arena tomorrow.

HUNT: Have a great show.

TAPPER: It's not just Jamaica hard hit by Hurricane Melissa. The Lead starts right now. Dozens killed and the devastation significant after Hurricane Melissa pummeled multiple Caribbean islands. CNN reporters are standing by throughout the region. We're going to show you the damage.

Plus, covert CIA efforts targeting Venezuela's Maduro regime. What CNN is learning about attack authorized by President Trump. And in just a few hours, Trump Xi and the meeting that the U.S. hopes can deter recent aggression by the Chinese military, the largest in the world.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We start with our world lead, Jamaica battered by Hurricane Melissa as seen in this stunning drone video posted by the country's prime minister. After one of the strongest Atlantic storms on record.

At least four bodies have been recovered in St. Elizabeth Parish, according to officials. The storm is now a Category 1 storm. But the danger is not over. Right now, powerful wind bands are spreading as Melissa bears down on the Bahamas.

In Haiti, at least 25 people are dead after the storm burst riverbanks. Some are still trapped in collapsed houses southwest of Port-au-Prince, according to a local official who says he's overwhelmed. Overwhelmed as the nation also grapples with rampant gang violence.

In Cuba. Nearly 150,000 people are isolated, cut off by rising rivers. The Cuban president says the country suffered significant damage. Meanwhile, Jamaicans are currently assessing the destruction. Today's heat index in some areas topped 100 degrees. 77 percent of the island is completely without power, complicating recovery efforts.

Take a listen to the mayor of the southern coastal town of Black River.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RICHARD SOLOMON, BLACK RIVER, JAMAICA: The conditions here are devastating. Catastrophic is a mild term based on what we are observing. We are unable to do any rescue and we are unable to respond.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam rode out the storm in Jamaica and tagged along with recovery crews today to see impassable roads and very slow progress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST (voice-over): After Hurricane Melissa, one of the strongest Atlantic hurricanes on record whipped through Jamaica Tuesday. Leaving behind a path of destruction. Most of the island without power.

On the ground, a muddy mess as people come out to survey the damage for the first time. Crumbling infrastructure, flooded roads, downed trees, causing major disruption and making getting aid to those most in need a very difficult task.

VAN DAM: We are literally on the front lines of the Jamaica Defense force. Ambulances, local NGOs, police, volunteers trying to clear the roadway leading into Black River. Some of the what we believe is the hardest hit areas from hurricane Melissa. It's a monumental effort to try and get aid to through to this area, including medical provisions.

We've seen ambulances and people coming together to push those ambulances through debris and thick mud. This effort trying to get aid and people and help that is desperately needed into portions of western Jamaica. VAN DAM (voice-over): People banded together. Some did whatever they

could against the force of nature. Like Gregory, who climbed on top of his roof to nail it down during the Category 5 hurricane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was looking through the window and it's so terrifying me. I have to go on my roof in the storm in a raincoat with Bahama and nail on my roof to save it.

VAN DAM (voice-over): And Damien, who watched his house fly away and dodge debris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I watch it flying away. Yes. And it was scared after went outside my vehicle, the tree and I follow my vehicle and so I have to like run outside, move them and, you know, and just move on.

VAN DAM (voice-over): Melissa also hit Cuba, flooding streets of Santiago and cutting off road access.

[17:05:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There was a lot of wind, a lot of rain. This area was flooded. Where you see now the water reached almost knee high.

VAN DAM (voice-over): In Haiti, Melissa's outer bands brought deadly flooding. Back in Jamaica the road to recovery is long, but some are staying strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Jamaica is a disaster right now. So we just have to pray up for the best and the good help each one when we can't help. And that's it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN DAM: Jake, we are still on the front lines of this medical aid convoy that is moving and aiming itself towards the Black River, some of the hardest hit areas of western Jamaica. We've had pleas from the Jamaican Defense Force pleading for more hands, more people means more debris can be removed from this area.

Here's one of the many ambulances that have set up in this convoy. But as you can see, we're stuck in a position because of the debris that is littered across the road, making getting the necessary aid, the medical help, the food, the provisions, anything, communications as well next to impossible to Black River, which is still a good 10 miles down the road. It is going to be a daunting task. It already has been.

But what we've noticed is this humanitarian effort. Everybody coming together in Jamaica, in these communities, Jake, giving and lending their hands, even pushing ambulances through mud, debris and mudslides that we've seen here across the roads of western Jamaica. It is a catastrophic situation.

TAPPER: All right, CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam in Jamaica. Thank you so much. Joining us now, the Jamaican Minister of Information, Dana Morris Dixon. Minister, what is the most urgent need for Jamaicans right now?

DANA MORRIS DIXON, JAMAICAN MINISTER OF INFORMATION: Thank you, Jake. There is a lot of need. We have to get access to those communities that are cut off. And there are many communities in western Jamaica. St Elizabeth, in Montego Bay, I know a lot of American tourists come and see beautiful Montego Bay that has taken a big hit.

And so we need to get to those marooned communities. And so having heavy equipment, having crew that can come in and assist us in getting to those areas is really very important. We also need to get food to these areas because a lot of these people are cut off and do need food, supplies flown into them.

And so there's a lot of need on the western side of the island.

TAPPER: Four bodies were recovered in St. Elizabeth. You heard the mayor of Black River say that rescue teams cannot start working because they can't even get the equipment up and running due to the flooding.

DIXON: Yes.

TAPPER: How much worse is the death toll anticipated to get?

DIXON: Well, we are still praying that it will not get too high, but we don't know because we've not been able to get to some of the hardest hit areas. And so we have reports from other parts of Jamaica of potential deaths, but we are not able to verify it with the police because we've not been able to get many of our emergency teams into those communities.

This was a Category 5 hurricane. We kept saying before it came that it was going to be catastrophic. And we're now seeing those pictures, and we're completely devastated in Jamaica. But we're doing everything that we can in order to get assistance to those communities that need it.

TAPPER: Your message to the more than 25,000 tourists who still are in Jamaica is, quote, there's no need to worry about. When do you think it will be safe enough for them to fly out, for them to leave?

DIXON: Well, the good thing is that Kingston did not get hit in the way Montego Bay or St Elizabeth was. So the eastern part of the island was spared the worst of it. We still had lots of heavy wind, and we also had a lot of rain. But we are able to now open Norman Manley International Airport, which is our major airport in Kingston.

And so that opens this afternoon. And so we're very happy about that because that means that we can now land humanitarian planes that are coming in with relief products for all of those in the damaged areas. We're also working really hard to get our airport in Montego Bay back up and running.

And so we believe that very soon those tourists who do want to leave, the 25,000 of them that were on island in the hurricane, that they will soon be able to leave if they need to.

TAPPER: All right. Our prayers are with you. Minister Dana Morris Dixon, thank you so much.

DIXON: Thank you very much. We appreciate all your support, all of the support from everyone internationally.

TAPPER: Here in the United States today, Wall Street's reaction to the major interest rate cut impacting your money.

[17:10:03]

Plus, visible anger on Capitol Hill from the Senate Majority leader, Republican John Thune. What led to him raising his voice on the Senate floor. But first, when skirting the law becomes the norm, we're watching this act repeated by the Trump administration over and over and over.

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TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, right now we're going to take a big picture look at President Trump's rejection of accountability and guardrails because yesterday a federal judge disqualified Trump's appointee for U.S. attorney in Los Angeles, Bill Essayli. That's because interim appointments expire after 120 days.

But Trump extended his term in late July. He did that without the approval of the U.S. Senate or the approval of federal judges in the affected district, which the law requires. And frankly, by now, 282 days into President Trump's second term, this is par for the course for his administration.

This latest push at the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles followings other firings in U.S. attorney's offices, purging the administration of expertise and non MAGA loyalists.

[17:15:08]

The most glaring example, the former acting U.S. attorney of the Eastern District of Virginia, Eric Siebert, who was forced out in September after mounting pressure from President Trump to bring charges against former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James.

Siebert was replaced by White House adviser Lindsey Halligan, who at the very least we can say lacks prosecutorial experience. But she is a loyalist. He also attempted this in New Jersey with loyalist Alina Haba, whom he also tried to install as unconfirmed by the Senate beyond that 120-day window, pushing to skirt the rules and the regulations to install loyalists as U.S. attorneys.

At the same time, the president is ridding the administration not only of non-loyalists but of guardrails. Earlier this month, again not complying with the law, the president

fired the Inspector General of the Export Import Bank. Republican Senator Chuck Grassley of the Senate Judiciary Committee took issue with this. He tweeted, President Trump takes an oath to uphold the Constitution and the laws, but he hasn't told Congress he was firing the Export Import Inspector General. The law says the president has to specifically inform Congress about inspector general firings, and unless the courts say otherwise, that's still the law. Unquote.

Other than that tweet, however, we have heard nary a peep from Republicans in Congress. That inspector general being fired follows, of course, the January firing by Trump of 17 Inspectors General whose purpose it is to seek out fraud and mismanagement in their respective federal agencies throughout the Trump administration.

In February, President Trump replaced the Senate confirmed Biden appointed director of the Office of Government Ethics. That's the office responsible for keeping the executive branch in line with ethics laws, ethics regulations free from financial conflicts of interest.

The office did not respond to CNN's requests this summer to explain how President Trump is avoiding conflicts of interest when he, for example, privately dined with wealthy investors of his personal meme coin fund or, for example, accepting this $400 million luxury airplane from Qatar to the Pentagon.

In addition to nixing oversight, President Trump has gotten rid of pretty much anyone who might provide information that he doesn't like or who might otherwise stand in his way. The head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, fired after the agency's nonpartisan jobs report numbers did not reflect perfectly on Trump's economy.

The general in charge of the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, the DIA, fired after the agency's initial intelligence assessment of damage to Iranian nuclear sites from U.S. strikes made Trump angry. Six members of the Commission of Fine Arts fired this week ahead of their expected review of President Trump's construction plans to move ahead with his White House ballroom. RIP East Wing.

President Trump is even trying to fire people who don't work for him. On Monday, he asked the U.S. Supreme Court to allow him to fire Shira Perlmutter, a a top official at the Library of Congress, despite a lower court ruling that found that the official is part of the legislative branch, not the executive branch.

Perlmutter's lawsuit says this is all because Trump disagreed with her report suggesting that AI models would likely have to license some copyrighted material that they use.

It has to be said, this is not a golf tournament where pro golfers can be encouraged to just let Trump win while attendees clap and pretend that he's actually beating golf pros and he gets the club trophy. This is the presidency of the United States of America. He's destroying guardrails and flouting laws and purging oversight at the same time that the president is pushing the limits on executive powers, sending troops into cities against the wishes of the mayors and governors, engaging in military strikes against alleged drug traffickers, strikes of questionable legality, pushing the Department of Justice to go after his political opponents. Our system of checks and balances built in by our forefathers is what

rules the United States of America. And if the system that checks mistakes and balances overreach is malfunctioning, or if it's gone, if the legislative branch goes on vacation and conducts no checks, if the watchdogs cannot provide any balance because they've been fired and replaced with loyalists, if there are no checks and balances, why would anyone expect the American experiment to work?

[17:20:05]

Coming up next, a big update just in on the Trump administration official ordered to appear before a federal judge every single day because of the actions of border patrol officials in Chicago. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: Breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead, a federal appeals court just temporarily blocked a court order requiring the top Border Patrol official in Chicago to check in daily with a judge. Let's bring in CNN's Priscilla Alvarez. Priscilla so this story is wild.

A lower court judge initially ordered daily check ins after aggressive crowd control tactics were being used despite being told to cut it out.

[17:25:06]

What is the appeals court saying here?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So the appeals court is saying that for now. So essentially today for sure, Gregory Bovino, who has been the top Border Patrol official in charge of the crackdown in Chicago, does not need to appear for his daily check in.

Now, the federal appeals court allowed for more briefings on this, so we'll see if this will hold again tomorrow. But the expectation was that within the next few days, few hours, were going to see Bovino take the stand again to provide a rundown of the day.

Now, the reason that this happened is because only hours ago, the Justice Department asked the federal appeals court to weigh in, essentially saying that this was an extraordinary move by the federal judge to have Bavino check in, particularly as the official that is in charge of these operations.

Now, what came through, Jake, in the hearing yesterday, and particularly with this order from the judge initially, is that they have a microscope on Bovino and the Border Patrol officials because ultimately these confrontations are getting very aggressive with protesters on both sides. Protesters have also been throwing objects at federal agents. And she has a TRO in place that says you cannot use tear gas or other tactics.

TAPPER: Standing order. ALVAREZ: Correct. Unless there's an imminent threat. And so that has

been at the crux of this. And while she said she doesn't want to micromanage a situation, she did ask for this daily check in. We'll see what happens tomorrow and onward. And she didn't make clear that she is keeping tabs on them and what is happening on the streets, because ultimately the point of this was for Bovino to give a rundown of what is happening every day.

TAPPER: So Bovino has emerged as something of a lightning rod among progressives and Democrats. What does the Department of Homeland Security think of him?

ALVAREZ: So first of all, Bovino has been around for a very long time in the Border Patrol. He is very well liked at the leadership and the Department of Homeland Security and the White House, according to my sources, this. They like what they're seeing from him. And what they're seeing from him is these heavy handed tactics in aggressively arresting immigrants and also these roving patrols going to the Home Depot, arresting people, they're going to the car wash.

Now, I've talked to Bovino and he says, look, we're doing the job. We're going after the public safety threats. But it does go a step beyond what we have seen with, for example, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. And therein lies the tension. So much tension that now, there is a shakeup planned at ICE, where they're also considering installing Border Patrol officials in leadership roles there.

Now, these are two completely separate agencies, even if they're both in the immigration space. So this has been a big point of consternation among all of my sources because now we're seeing these other officials with another agency that typically is on the border calling the shots on interior enforcement, which is an entirely different animal.

But the reality is that the White House likes Bovino. They like what they're seeing from him. And that is why cases like the one in Chicago are ones that have national implications, because it's not just Los Angeles and Chicago. There is more to come from him, and it could expand even further.

TAPPER: So one of the things you're saying is the images that are falling are filling out the Instagram feeds of Democrats and alarming them are ones that the Trump administration likes. A lot of them.

ALVAREZ: It's true. And by the way, it's usually U.S. Border Patrol that is at the forefront of that, not ICE.

TAPPER: Interesting. Priscilla Alvarez, great reporting as always. Thanks so much. Next, brand new reporting from CNN's national security team about a covert CIA operation authorized by Trump targeting the Maduro regime in Venezuela.

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[17:37:54] TAPPER: In our World Lead, as President Trump warns the U.S. is considering direct strikes on the Venezuelan mainland, CNN is learning about covert actions against Venezuela's leader, Nicolas Maduro, during Trump's first term.

Sources tell CNN's national security reporters that the CIA carried out a clandestine cyberattack against Venezuela's government back then, disabling the computer networks used by Maduro's intelligence services. The attack was a success, but it was considered a throwaway, done only to appease Trump and avoid riskier, more direct conflict.

This time around, however, a former senior administration official described President Trump's thinking this way, "I told these guys I wanted the military option in 2018 and 2019, they didn't give me one. I want a real one now."

Democratic Congressman Jason Crow sits on the House Select Committees of Armed Services and Intelligence. He's also a veteran. Congressman, the Trump administration is clearly taking a more aggressive approach in the second term. They've already -- the military has struck 14 boats and killed at least 57 people. They claim these are narco- terrorists.

The Trump administration says they've given seven briefings on these boat -- boat strikes to Congress. I think you attended at least one of them. Have you been satisfied with what -- with what you've heard? Do you have any concerns?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, I have a lot of concerns, Jake. I mean, first of all, what about the last 25 years would lead Donald Trump and the folks in his administration to think that the United States should be in regime change and nation-building business? I mean, come on. We spent $3 trillion, 20-plus years, 7,000 lives.

Generations of Americans have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. And Donald Trump wants to get involved in regime change in Venezuelan -- in Venezuela? That is the height of insanity. And then you add on top of it, Donald Trump doesn't see a problem that -- that he doesn't think he can bomb his way out of.

We're spending hundreds of millions of dollars. We now have close to a tenth of our worldwide naval assets in the Caribbean going after wooden boats without bored motors on them. You know, this is a waste of taxpayer dollars. This can be done a lot more effectively and efficiently, and Congress needs to be substantially more involved.

[17:35:15]

We have a lot of questions on both sides of the aisle about the efficacy, the expense, and the legality of these operations.

TAPPER: Republicans are signaling that these attacks are just beginning. Take a listen to Lindsey Graham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): We're going to blow them up and kill the people that want to poison America. And we're now going to expand operations, I think, to the land. The game has changed. The game has changed when it comes to narco-trafficking drug organizations. We're going to take you out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you buy the Trump administration argument, the executive order that refers to drug traffickers, until earlier this year considered criminals, now being labeled terrorists?

CROW: Well, they've made that change, right? We've gone from this being a law enforcement operation where people are designated criminals, and they just waved a magic wand and said, these are narco- terrorists that pose a threat to U.S. national security, and we're now going to use the full weight of our military and intelligence assets, again, at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Now, listen, I have no issue with getting more serious on fentanyl and drug trafficking. You know, it is wreaking havoc on our kids and our communities, killing tens of thousands of people, and it is way past time to get serious about it, but I actually want to do it right. And if we think bombing a bunch of wooden boats in the Caribbean is going to solve this massive problem for America, then you are kidding yourselves.

The -- the lack of sophistication of Lindsey Graham and Republicans that just like to, you know, bang their war drums and talk about killing people and blowing people up, you know, that's the last 25 years. You know, we did that for the last 25 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, and look where it got us.

TAPPER: Let's change the subject if we can, because earlier today Obamacare or ACA enrollees got their first looks at the 2026 premiums, premiums that are set to go up on average 26 percent. Now, this is separate from the Obamacare premium subsidies expiring, which is why Democrats say they've shutdown the government to get those reauthorized. But just on the issue of premiums, why are prices skyrocketing?

CROW: Well, first of all, Jake, Democrats didn't shutdown the government. Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress control every branch of our government. They didn't even come to us. Donald Trump literally went on "Fox and Friends" and said, don't talk to the Democrats, cut them out of the negotiations, which is exactly what Mike Johnson did, right?

And then they actually shutdown Congress. We're 28 days into a shutdown because Mike Johnson says we did our job. How in God's name can you say we've done our job and close the doors when the government's shutdown? They need to reopen, the government. They need to reopen the House. They need to reopen negotiations, and we are standing by to get this done.

But yes, we aren't going to sit here while premiums for Americans go up 200 percent, 300 percent in many cases, and it sends shockwaves through our -- through our medical system, and it's literally life and death for Americans. They -- we're just not going to allow that to happen, so they have to come to us in good faith.

TAPPER: Congressman Jason Crow, thanks so much. Appreciate it, sir.

[17:38:31]

President Trump is just hours away from his big meeting. With Chinese leader Xi Jinping, you've heard a lot about trade and tariffs on the agenda. There's another big underlying topic, China's military aggression, and we're going to get into that part of the discussion next.

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TAPPER: We're back with our Money Lead. The cost to borrow money or pay credit card and car loans got a little lower today. The Federal Reserve lowered interest rates by another quarter percent to a range between 3.75 percent and 4 percent. This is the lowest in three years.

However, after the big announcement, Fed Chair Jerome Powell told reporters another rate cut in December, "is not a foregone conclusion." That warning seemed to spook Wall Street and the Dow and S&P 500 closed down while the Nasdaq ended slightly higher. Money matters.

Specifically, trade and tariffs also top our World Lead. In our few -- in a few hours, President Trump's going to sit down with Chinese President Xi Jinping in South Korea. This is a high-stakes meeting. The two leaders are set to discuss a potential trade deal that would have a seismic global economic impact.

And with me now to talk about this and other matters of international intrigue, David Sanger, the New York Times White House correspondent and CNN national security analyst, and Julia Ioffe, a Washington correspondent for Puck. She is also the author of the brand new book, "Motherland: A Feminist History of Modern Russia from Revolution to Autocracy." It's out when? This week?

JULIA IOFFE, FOUNDING PARTNER AND WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK: Last week.

TAPPER: Last week.

IOFFE: Tuesday.

TAPPER: And it's already nominated for?

IOFFE: A National Book Award.

TAPPER: A National Book Award.

IOFFE: Yes.

TAPPER: That's just super impressive. IOFFE: Thank you.

TAPPER: Congratulations.

IOFFE: Thank you so much.

TAPPER: We're going to get to the book in one second, but there's a lot of stuff going on right now. So we do not know the details of this potential deal between the U.S. and China. What do you think would make it a win for Trump, if anything?

IOFFE: Well, I think if there is a deal to be had, right?

TAPPER: Any deal.

IOFFE: Right. Any deal. He wants something to tout. He wants points on the board. And I think if the two sides can climb down from these tariffs and these hostile acts, trade acts that they've -- and these trees they've climbed into, I think that would be a big win for both of them.

TAPPER: David, the meeting is expected to result in a framework for the two countries' economic ties. But does this moment not showcase that Beijing is now something of an equal to the U.S. on the global stage, making the trade war in the end something of a win for Xi?

[17:45:10]

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Oh, I think it definitely is, because Xi Jinping was the only one who managed to stand up directly to President Trump on the tariffs, cut off the rare earths, said, you want to play this game, we can as well. So I think the best you could hope for, Jake, would be that tomorrow they basically reset the clock to January, get rid of the tariffs. China starts buying soybeans again. They suspend the rare earth halt and so forth. The big question, though, is, you know, the relationship is so much bigger.

TAPPER: Right. It's not just trade and tariffs. It's all this Chinese military aggression.

SANGER: Oh, it's military aggression. It's Taiwan.

TAPPER: Cyberattack.

SANGER: It's cyberattacks, salt typhoon and fault typhoon, both aimed at the United States. It's the growth of the largest nuclear program -- the nuclear weapons program that we have seen. It's taking land from and islands from the Philippines. And so far, the President has really focused only on the trade aspect.

TAPPER: Julia, let's turn to -- to Europe. And another major move today, the Trump administration is removing U.S. troops from Romania. That's a lead -- that's a move that's drawing strong criticism from Republicans. The Republican chairs of the House and Senate Armed Services Committees released a joint statement that read in part, "we strongly oppose the decision not to maintain the rotational U.S. brigade in Romania. On March 19th, we stated that we will not accept significant changes to our warfighting structure that are made without a rigorous interagency process, coordination with combatant commanders and the joint staff, and collaboration with Congress. Unfortunately, this appears to be exactly what is being attempted."

This is really interesting that Republicans in Congress very seldom stand up to Trump on anything. And do you think this is going to invite, in any way, aggression from Putin?

IOFFE: Well, we're already seeing aggression from Putin. But it's like more --

TAPPER: More, I mean.

IOFFE: More, yes. And I think it's probably going to continue being these kind of pokes and pricks and testing the limits of what it would take to trigger maybe an Article 5 declaration by the NATO powers.

But in terms of, you know, land army invading, I don't know that, I mean, they still can't take Ukraine. So I think what you're going to be seeing is more of this kind of prodding and these drone attacks like you've seen in Poland and Denmark. But this is not a great move.

And I think it is a little bit kind of Trump, again, being all over the map. First, he sanctions Russia more, but he's withdrawing U.S. troops from Romania. So what is Moscow to make from this?

TAPPER: Yes, it's a good question. I mean, he does seem to be all over the map. Some days, he really seems to be clear-eyed about Putin. Say cost -- you know, says he basically lies to him all the time. And then he turns around and does something that will be very pleasing to Putin.

SANGER: Right. So you have seen him, obviously, face off against Zelenskyy earlier in the year. Then tells --

TAPPER: A couple times.

SANGER: A couple times.

TAPPER: Yes.

SANGER: Then tells Zelenskyy he could win back all the territory by himself. Then tells Zelenskyy he really couldn't. Then do the sanctions and so forth. Meanwhile, Putin has been very steady. His -- his demands haven't changed any. And then in the past two days, past three or four days, he has conducted two tests of exotic nuclear --

TAPPER: Oh, right, that nuclear-fueled missile. Yeah.

SANGER: Well, the nuclear-fueled missile. And then yesterday, what's called the Poseidon, which is an undersea torpedo that is designed to be dropped off from the eastern side of Russia, make it under the Pacific and hit California. And that's pretty remarkable. TAPPER: Julia, let's talk about your book, "Motherland: A Feminist History of Modern Russia from Revolution to Autocracy," in which you talk about stuff that I really, honestly, to be honest, didn't know. How Russia transformed from a country that once championed women's equality to one that now is very right-wing in -- in views even just like gays and lesbians as --

IOFFE: Extremists.

TAPPER: Yes. Anyway, tell me about it. How did that happen?

IOFFE: Well, what happened is that the men implementing these policies, and they were mostly men, the women were very quickly shut out of the process and out of upper -- the upper echelons of Soviet leadership, they had never bought in to truly emancipating women.

They were OK with emancipating them in some senses, like letting them get divorced and allowing them into the workplace, which conveniently the Soviet Union needed, all hands on deck, to industrialize at this breakneck -- breakneck rate that they did in the 20s and 30s.

But they didn't want women competing with them for power. They didn't want women equal to them in status. And they didn't like some of the ideas that early Bolshevik feminists like Aleksandra Kollontai championed around free love and unchaining love and sex for marriage.

[17:50:03]

They were quite conventional, bourgeois, patriarchal men. And then, coupled with that, they -- all these promises of emancipating women, letting them work, they never supported women the way they promised to. They didn't build the required number of nurseries to support them. There weren't the laundromats and the cafeterias.

TAPPER: Yes.

IOFFE: There wasn't food or clothes to go around. So by the end of the Soviet experiment, women were so exhausted by having to do everything, by working a full day's work, and then coming home and doing seven hours of domestic labor every day, and raising the kids, that they were like, we don't want this anymore. We just want to be stay-at-home wives. We want a rich man to take care of us.

TAPPER: Yes.

IOFFE: And that paved the way for somebody like Putin.

TAPPER: Fascinating stuff. Julia Ioffe and David Sanger. And again, Julia's new book, "Motherland," is out now. Go check it out.

Iranian-American journalist Masih Alinejad will be here next on The Lead after coming face-to-face today with two men convicted of trying to kill her.

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[17:55:12]

MASIH ALINEJAD, IRANIAN JOURNALIST & DISSIDENT: So I'm going with the FBI to the court right now facing my would-be assassins. As you see, I'm wearing red because they were hoping to cover all over my body with blood. I'm wearing red to celebrate my life.

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TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, that's Iranian-American journalist Masih Alinejad today. Before, facing two Russian mobsters who were convicted in trying to assassinate her, today a judge sentenced both men to 25 years in prison for this murder-for-hire plot allegedly arranged by Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps in retaliation for Masih's criticism of the Iranian regime and her advocacy for women's rights.

And here now, it's always our pleasure, Masih Alinejad. Masih, what was it like to face your would-be assassins in court, and what was your reaction to the sentence?

ALINEJAD: Excited. I screamed. I started to sing, dance. I took a bike on New York City to enjoy my life. Jake, I've been through a lot. For three years, my life turned absolutely upside down. I was nervous to see them face-to-face, but seeing a female judge, this is the dream that we are fighting in Iran.

And seeing justice, it was beautiful. It was phenomenal. I told them, you are two criminals. You even don't know me, Russian mobsters. You were hired by the Iranian regime to kill me, and now you are here in court complaining about the situation in prison? Are you kidding me?

My job was to echo the voice of political prisoners, and that's why you wanted to kill me. I am alive. Maybe I lost my Brooklyn home, my beautiful sunflower garden, but not my voice, Jake, as you can hear me. I'm loud.

TAPPER: Yes, that's why we book you. You read a victim impact statement in court. You said you were doing it also for the millions of Iranians still under threat by the Iranian regime. What -- what did you tell the court?

ALINEJAD: I said to the court that this is not about me. They didn't want just to kill me. They wanted to kill freedom of speech because my platform with more than 10 million followers just echoing the voice of millions of Iranians who say no to forced hijab and no to Islamic Republic, and that's why they wanted to kill me.

And, Jake, I have to say that I am not just talking for myself. In the court, I said the same thing, that these Russian mobsters, the Chinese government, the Islamic Republic, Maduro's government, they're all helping each other, working together and targeting dissidents like me.

You know, I created an organization alongside Garry Kasparov and Leopoldo Lopez, another opposition leader. We're bringing dissidents from 56 authoritarian regimes. Can you believe that when I talk to them, all of them saying the same story, that they're dictators targeting them on U.S. soil, targeting them on Western soil by helping each other?

You know my case. They wanted to take me to Venezuela. And that happened to one of my colleagues, Rahul Lazam (ph). He was tricked from France to, actually, Iran, and they executed him. And right now, talking to you, another journalist, another -- another Iranian, Jamshid Sharmahd, two years ago, was kidnapped by the regime, tricked to Iran.

They killed him, and his daughter announced yesterday that they're going to bring his body back in the United States of America. That could have happened to me. I could have been dead. And I love my life.

TAPPER: Yes.

ALINEJAD: I want to be alive and see this regime is going to be gone, but that's not going to happen until the U.S. government be tough when it comes to the terrorist regime in Iran. Negotiation or talking to this regime is not going to save the lives of Americans.

TAPPER: So this murder plot failed, thank God. It also failed to silence you, thank God. But it did change your life. What is your message to those who see you?

ALINEJAD: First of all, yes, it changed my life. I have been moved 21 times. You know, I was -- I grew up in a -- in a tiny village being brainwashed by the regime alongside young schoolgirls to chant death to America, to hate America. How ironic. The same country America saved my life, gave me a second life. But I don't have a normal life. I have to watch over my shoulder in New York City.

We have to stop transnational repression. And that's not going to happen until we Americans ask our policymakers to be united with all the democratic countries to stop the terrorists, to target dissidents beyond their own borders.

TAPPER: Masih Alinejad, God bless you. We're so happy to have you. Thanks so much and congratulations.

ALINEJAD: Thank you so much for having me back, Jake.

[18:59:57]

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour are lawmakers finally making progress on a compromise to end this government shutdown? Senate Majority Leader John Thune says that talks are ramping up between Republicans and moderate Democrats --