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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Millions At Risk of Losing Federal Food Aid Due to Shutdown; Ceasefire Back in Effect After Israel Conducts Strikes in Gaza; Louvre Robbery Suspects Admit Involvement in Theft. Poll: 55 Percent Of Americans Disapprove Of How Trump Is Handling Construction Of White House Ballroom; Yosemite & Other U.S. Parks Left To The Wild With Lack Of Staff. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 29, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

[18:00:00]

This hour, are lawmakers finally making progress on a compromise to end this government shutdown? Senate Majority Leader John Thune says that talks are ramping up between Republicans and moderate Democrats. But with 42 million Americans at risk of losing food assistance this weekend, will Congress make a deal?

Plus, devastated communities are getting their first look now at just how extensive the damage is from Hurricane Melissa. More than 30 people were killed in Jamaica, Haiti, and Cuba. But officials in Jamaica say they cannot give a death assessment yet because crews can't even get to the hardest hit areas right now. Just how long could this recovery process take?

And what could be a break in the Louvre heist. Today, French prosecutors announced two suspects have admitted to being involved in the robbery. So, are investigators any closer to recovering the more than $100 million worth of necklaces, earrings, tiaras, and diamonds?

The Lead tonight, two days left until 42 Americans lose a critical lifeline to help put food on the table. SNAP food assistance benefits, what people commonly call food stamps, are set to expire this Saturday, setting up another battle along party lines on Capitol Hill as we hit day 29 of the federal government shutdown.

Pressure will keep building on lawmakers. Military paychecks remain in jeopardy. Obamacare enrollees are seeing premiums rise without the subsidies that Democrats want to renew. Elections are on Tuesday. And there remains the potential for the shutdown to set a new record for the longest ever or worse, outlast the original end date for the funding plan that Senate Democrats continue to vote down.

Let's go to CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill. And, Manu, it's getting heated up there.

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it absolutely is. Frustration is boiling over because there is simply no end game to this crisis that is getting worse for every day, that people are losing now critical benefits that they rely on for their food assistance. That could happen as soon as Saturday, as the Trump administration is indicating that it will not dip into what's known as contingency funds to keep that money flowing. They say that money needs to go elsewhere. They also say that they are legally prohibited from doing so, prompting significant pushback from Democrats who went to the floor of the United States Senate today to try to pass a bill to allow for those funds to continue to flow for at least a few more weeks.

That prompted an irate Senate Majority Leader John Thune to push back, saying if Democrats wanted to fund that program, known as SNAP, that they could actually pass the bill that they have bought 13 times to fund the full federal government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): SNAP recipients shouldn't go without food. People should be getting paid in this country, and we've tried to do that 13 times. And you voted no 13 times. This isn't a political game. These are real people's lives that we're talking about. And you all have just figured out 29 days in that, oh, there might be some consequences.

13 times people over here voted to fund Snap. 13 times they voted to fund WIC. My aching back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And this comes says John Thon may queue up a 14th vote as soon as tomorrow on this. But don't expect anything to be different because. So far, just three Senate Democrats have voted to -- for that Republican bill to reopen the government amid their demands that there must be a negotiation now to extend those expiring subsidies under the Affordable Care Act, arguing it must be dealt with now, or people will see their premiums rise.

Jake, today I caught up with Catherine Cortez Masto. She's one of the three Senate Democrats who have voted consistently with Republicans to reopen the government, and I asked her whether she believes her party is making a big mistake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO (D-NV): I don't think federal workers should be political pawns. I don't think we should swap the pain of some Americans for others. I think we should be lifting all of them up and helping them.

I think we can keep the government open and address this looming crisis of the healthcare cliff that we are seeing.

RAJU: Have your fears about the shutdown been born out?

MASTO: I can tell you what I know and I'm hearing in my state, people are suffering because they're not getting a paycheck. (END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And Jake, despite the back and forth, there are some signs that there are talks that are happening, not at the leadership level, not with the White House and top Democrats, but at least some rank and file members who were trying to figure out a way out of this crisis. One Senate Democrat, Tammy Baldwin, who I just caught up with moments ago, Jake, told me that there's a, quote, shadow negotiation happening, that when and if Republican and Democratic leaders come together and the president gets directly involved, that perhaps that can lead to a larger deal to end this stalemate. But, Jake, expect this to drag into next week, which could make this, which would make this the longest shutdown in American history.

TAPPER: All right. Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thank you.

I want to bring in my next guest. She's a single mother of two from Tennessee whose children rely on SNAP and WIC benefits.

[18:05:03]

Sariya Birdine is joining us now. Sariya, how are you feeling ahead of this approaching expiration of benefits with SNAP benefits set to expire on Saturday?

SARIYA BIRDINE, SNAP RECIPIENT: It's kind of a scary feeling. I was telling someone I was talking to earlier if I didn't really have faith like I did, I'd be panicking. And I know that a lot of -- you know, a lot of other mothers that are in the same position that I am in are most likely panicking. And it's just -- you know, it's a really scary feeling, but it kind of -- they make it feel like it's nothing we can do. So --

TAPPER: What are you going to do? I mean, is there a food kitchen? Is there a church that will help out? Like what are you going to do for your son and your daughter? They're young and obviously they need food.

BIRDINE: Right. So, there are food banks around I personally have been saving so I'll just be pretty much saving money. And there are a couple of food banks around where we live. And then my home church, I know that they help out with things like that.

TAPPER: So, I don't know how much of the government shutdown politics you're following. There are some lawmakers here in Washington, D.C., trying to work towards a solution to help keep these programs funded. But if that doesn't work, do you have any sort of long-term plan on how you would supplement the money from SNAP if it disappears for an extended period of time?

BIRINE: My plan would just be to keep working hard to save money, I mean, and you know, visit the food banks if needed. But since it started, I kind of already started to prepare. So, my plan is just to keep building what I have and, you know, keep working the best that I can to stay prepared for those times. TAPPER: When you hear about politicians arguing over this, do you have an opinion on who is to blame in terms of Democrats or Republicans, or do you just think about, you know, these people are paid to work this out and they need to fix it, and you don't really think about it in terms of partisan labels?

BIRDINE: Well, I just -- you know, I look at it like they do get paid to fix all of this, and I just feel like there's nothing being done if it's been going on for 29 days and, you know, tomorrow is the day that it could be shut off completely. So, I just feel like the people that are in charge of it need to get it together because, like you said, there are real -- this is real people's lives that we're dealing with, and there's children and, you know, elderly people and families that are going to go hungry if things like this happen.

TAPPER: How old are your kids?

BIRDINE: Five and six.

TAPPER: Do they have any idea about what's going on, or you keep that away from them?

BIRDINE: I'm doing my best to keep it away from them. And I was -- earlier, I was just saying that I know a lot of other parents are trying to do the same, but it can get hard because it's scary. Like some people really don't know what they're going to do next, and that's a scary place to be. But I'm doing my best to kind of keep it from them, so they have no idea what's going on.

TAPPER: All right. Sariya Birdine, thank you so much. I hope this comes to an end soon.

Let's bring in Congressman John Rose. He's a Republican from Sariya's state of Tennessee. So, Congressman, what's your reaction to what she said about the politics of the shutdown? Her basic take is not to assign partisan blame. It's just you and your colleagues are paid to solve these problems and make sure that they're not -- that people like her kids are not pawns in this fight.

REP. JOHN ROSE (R-TN): Absolutely, Jake, thanks for having me on. 29 days, for 29 days, Republicans in the Senate have kept the government shut down and it's really deplorable to see them using people like Mrs. Birdine as pawns, if you will, or leverage, as the Democrats refer to it, to try to get what they want. And, you know, we know that Republicans, with the help of one Democrat in the House, passed a bill to keep the government open 40 days ago, and, unfortunately, Chuck Schumer decided that a shutdown made sense for Democrats and he's played this game using the American people as fodder to accomplish what he wants to accomplish politically.

[18:10:12]

And it's really shameful.

TAPPER: Well, let me ask you. There is a $6 billion contingency fund at the Department of Agriculture that, until September 30th, the Trump Administration said they could use to help keep SNAP going, even during a government shutdown. But now the Trump administration has said, oh, no, we're not going to do that, those funds aren't for that. The top Senate appropriator, Republican Susan Collins, says her team's analysis is that the Department of Agricultural can use that fund. Shouldn't you support using that contingency fund to pay for SNAP so kids, like Sariya's that we just, we just heard from, don't go hungry.

ROSE: Well, that certainly seems tempting, but the fund, $5.6 billion, is not nearly enough to cover the cost in the short run. And, secondly, that fund is there for emergencies and we have a hurricane bearing down on us now. And so if we use those funds here, then they won't be able to be used elsewhere.

We see Democrats make these trade-offs all the time where they pick winners and losers with funds like this. And so I think we have to be careful if we take something that's there for an emergency and use it when the answer is simple. You know, the Senate is in Washington. You know, five or six senators could join all of the Republicans and get this done and reopen the government and spare people like Ms. Birdine and her family, her five-year-old and her six-year-old, from the suffering that the Democrats are using.

The Schumer shutdown should end. I think they miscalculated. They need to just take stock of that. We've seen this mistake over and over in the past, and it just doesn't work to use people as leverage in these situations.

TAPPER: I get that that $6 billion in contingency funding is a short- term solution, only two or three weeks worth of SNAP funds, but that means a lot to those kids. And if Senator Susan Collins says they can use it, she's the head appropriator on this matter, she says they can use it for this, why not just do it? We're talking about an emergency situation here of kids and seniors and disabled people and veterans being able to eat.

ROSE: Well, my understanding is Senator Collins may be right, but my understanding is that the administration made the assessment that those funds could not be used for this purpose, and more importantly, that they're there to make way or to provide for emergencies. And so I think, again, we need to just get back -- get the Senate to get us back in business and, you know, that's, that's the easy for five or six Democrats. And then we can negotiate on these bigger questions that they want to talk about. But as long as they keep the government shut down, they're holding all of America hostage for their political -- frankly, their progressive, radical left wing agenda.

And so, you know, this needs to end and they need to quit hurting everyday working Americans like Ms. Birdine. And there are 76,000 recipients of SNAP benefits in my district and over 700,000 in Tennessee, and, of course, millions across the country who are going to be negatively impacted on top of the Transportation Safety Administration workers, the Customs and Border Protection, our troops, et cetera, that are being impacted by this or shortly will be impacted in a negative way.

And the Senate keeps voting. They voted 13 times to impose this pain that Democrats have, and it's enough. They need to they need to come to the table and put and bring this to an end.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman John Rose from Tennessee, thanks so much, sir. I appreciate it.

The ceasefire is allegedly back in place after Israel launched a new wave of strikes against Hamas, accusing Hamas of breaching the truce. Does this mean the efforts to find the rest of the deceased hostages have also resumed? I'll ask the father of American Itay Chen, next.

Plus, Hurricane Melissa, still a threat impacting The Bahamas tonight after lashing Jamaica and Cuba, the latest on the rescue and recovery efforts in some of the hardest hit areas, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, Hamas and Israel keep firing at each other, but the Trump administration and the Netanyahu government insist the ceasefire is back in effect. This after a series of overnight strikes in the region killed at least 104 people, including dozens of children in Gaza, according to the Gaza Ministry of Health.

The Israeli government says it targeted, quote, more than 30 operatives in command positions, unquote. Israel accused Hamas of killing an IDF soldier and also staging the fake discovery of a real deceased hostage.

Among the deceased hostages is Itay Chen. Itay is a dual, or was a dual American Israeli citizen. He is someone that The Lead has spoken about many times over the past two years, someone whose family is still waiting for him to be returned.

And Itay's father, Ruby Chen, joins us now. Ruby, always good to see you. We haven't spoken since the ceasefire began. Do you feel any more hopeful now that you will be reunited with your son?

RUBY CHEN, ITAY CHEN'S FATHER: Yes. You know, it was signed. The agreement was on 48 hostages, not 40, 45, 48, meaning that Hamas needs to comply and provide all of the hostages, including my son. The last two weeks, I had the opportunity to meet the president of the United States, the vice president, Mr. Witkoff, Mr. Kushner, Secretary Rubio.

[18:20:04]

All of them gave their commitment, their personal commitment that this U.S. citizen, the youngest U.S. citizen taken, will come back and I hope that they will be able to finish the job, which is bringing back my son and allow us to be reunited with him.

TAPPER: You recently met privately with Rubio when he was in Israel, as you noted. Did he give you any new details, any information about the remaining deceased hostages?

CHEN: So, I'll just speak specifically about my son. It's known that Hamas knows what he is, like that's not a secret. The secretary knows it, the president knows it. Mr. Witkoff knows it. Now, it's the way, the final way that the United States puts the pressure on Hamas to release this young U.S. citizen from captivity. And I hope that's where everyone is looking at and, you know, you feel positive that the president can make it happen, but everybody's watching him. And only then, you know, we could say that the U.S. came on top with the victory of getting all of the 12 U.S. citizens that were taken on October 7th, that would be to come back home.

TAPPER: You and I have talked about Itay a lot over the last two years, and, obviously, I know this is a priority for secretary Rubio and others in the Trump administration. But as you have said, and I have said, Itay was an American. He was -- I mean, he was a dual citizen, but he was an American citizen. Are you surprised that the lack of outrage among the American public at large over the fact that Americans remains are still being held in Gaza by a terrorist group?

CHEN: Yes. I think, first, it begins with the fact that I think that most Americans are not aware of that fact. It's a bit painful to say, but, you know, there were also hostages from Washington. All of them came out, hostages from the U.K., hostages from France, hostages from other places that all of them got their citizens out. But the US, you know, have not been able to get all of those 12 out, including my son. And I hope now is the time to say, okay, this is the priority.

And the president has unique relationships with the mediators, if it is Qatar, if it is Egypt, and if it is Turkey. And I would expect that this administration would -- that has prioritized the release of U.S. hostages, and have done a fabulous job, by the way, getting these hostages out. Just two weeks ago, we saw a U.S. citizen in Afghanistan that was held by the Taliban was released by this administration, that they would put the same emphasis and prioritization on my son and not wait even one day more to get them out.

TAPPER: Yes. I hope they get them out soon.

Ruby Chen, thank you so much.

CHEN: Thank you for having me, Jake. God bless.

TAPPER: French prosecutors say the two suspects have admitted to their involvement in the shocking heist at the Louvre, but are authorities any closer to recovering the more than $100 million worth of jewelry?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our World Lead now, French prosecutors say two suspects have admitted to being involved in the heist at the Louvre, but are they giving investigators any clues as to where the $100 million in missing jewels might be?

CNN's Melissa Bell is in Paris tonight with all the new details.

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, the two men who were arrested here in France last Saturday in relation to the Louvre heist have now been placed under formal investigation. We've been hearing from the Paris prosecutor about the latest on that investigation. Those two individuals, we understand, two men in their 30s, one of them of Algerian nationality, both of them living on the outskirts of Paris, were tracked down thanks to DNA that was left at the scene of the crime.

They had been known to authorities before and had been involved in things like low level delinquency, petty crimes, nothing on the scale with the ambition of what we saw at the Louvre Museum that Sunday morning.

She also explained that their understanding now was that four people were present that day. The two who'd gone up to the Apollo Gallery wearing those high visibility jackets, the other two had stayed down at street level. Another two suspects, therefore, are still at large, as are the jewels themselves, she explained. For now, they French authorities have yet to get their hands on those more than a hundred million dollars worth of jewels that were taken. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Melissa Bell in Paris, thanks so much.

A Jamaican official tells CNN that catastrophic is a, quote, mild term to describe the damage that they're seeing now from Hurricane Melissa. How long could recovery efforts take? I'm going to ask the former head of FEMA. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: Back to our World Lead, utter devastation in Jamaica after Category 5 Hurricane Melissa thrashed the island. At this hour, we know at least four bodies have been recovered. Listen to one resident of Montego Bay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yesterday was horrible, horrific, terrifying, the worst day of my entire life.

It was terrifying for me and my child. The water level reached me to my waist. I was stuck in my house. They had to break into my home to save me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Right now, it's the Bahamas that are getting battered by now Category 1 Melissa. More than 20 people died, including 10 children in Haiti from flooding. And Cuba faces widespread devastation.

Joining us now, former FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell. Administrator Criswell, of course, FEMA doesn't have jurisdiction over these hard hit Caribbean islands, but what can you tell us about what you think might be ahead for their recovery, particularly in places, such as Haiti, that are also dealing with gang violence and other kinds of unrest on top of this natural disaster?

DEANNE CRISWELL, FORMER FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: Jake, the the destruction that we are seeing already from Hurricane Melissa in Jamaica, in Haiti and what's going to come in the Bahamas is really devastating. And when I think back to, you know, even Asheville, North Carolina, they lost 100 percent of their infrastructure for days and part of their infrastructure for weeks, right? But they had resources that were able to come in and we were able to bring them from across the country to be able to help them. When we look at these island nations, right, they have on the island and being able to get them the right resources to not just start the recovery but just to stabilize this incident is really going to be complicated for them.

And so it's going to take the work of nonprofits to be able to come together and really help these communities understand what their recovery's going to look like and start to mobilize resources from around the world to come in and help multiple island nations.

[18:35:04]

TAPPER: So in the last hour, the Minister of the Interior in Jamaica told me it's very hard right now to get a picture, a decent picture of the death toll because heavy equipment is still needed to clear debris to even get to the hardest hit areas on the western side of Jamaica. Do people just have to wait for emergency crews to do the work? Do they need people and equipment to come from the United States, from other countries? How does it work?

CRISWELL: There are a lot of search and rescue teams that are part of an international certified group of search and rescue teams. Two of FEMA's urban search and rescue teams are part of that group. And those teams have gone out to many of these different events. They've gone to the earthquakes in Haiti. They went to the earthquakes in Pakistan. They could definitely go to help support the search and rescue efforts from Hurricane Melissa.

And this is made up of search and rescue teams from around the world. Those teams are going to need to come in with that equipment, that specialized equipment, to be able to help these communities, identify and find anybody that's still unaccounted for. But you're also going to see neighbors just going in to start to look, right? And I think the biggest thing that I would caution is that they just need to make sure that they're taking precautions to not get themselves in harm's way so they're not adding to the death toll, right? And so it's going to take everybody coming together.

But these special teams that are trained to go international, they're the ones that are going to really make the difference in helping them find anybody who's been on accounted for.

TAPPER: I want to ask you, CNN's Gabe Cohen has an exclusive report detailing a new Trump administration probe into FEMA over Hurricane Helene and allegations that Republican citizens did not get the help they needed because of their political affiliation. This is after the Biden administration probe on the same issue found no widespread effort to deny aid based on politics, although you did have to fire FEMA Field Supervisor Marnie Washington, who did direct her small team to, quote, avoid homes advertising. Trump, unquote.

Homeland Security Secretary Noem says her probe found, quote, systemic bias. What's your reaction?

CRISWELL: Yes, Jake. What I can say is that I testified before Congress on what we had initially found, and I stand by that testimony that I gave to Congress. And we directed the Office of the Inspector General as well as the Office of Special Counsel and our own Office of Personnel Responsibility, right, to look and see if there were systemic issues. Even the administrator that came in after I left my position, Cameron Hamilton, he even got the reports and said that there was no widespread issue.

And so, you know, we'll have to see what the Privacy Act continues to find and, and where it goes from here. But I certainly stand by the actions that I took along with my team towards the end of my administration.

TAPPER: Former FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Two federal prosecutors have been suspended after describing the January 6 attackers as a mob of rioters in court documents about new charges of one of those rioters. Those new details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, the current president is 79, the previous one is 82, and one quarter of Congress is over the age of 70. Now, one of the reasons behind this gerontocracy of sorts is that Americans are living longer and healthier. But we cannot pretend that aging is always graceful or that leaders always know when it's time to leave the arena.

And that brings us to the sad tale of D.C.'s longtime delegate, 88- year-old Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER (voice over): In Washington, D.C., she is a legend.

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), D.C. DELEGATE: I will not yield, sir.

TAPPER: But now that legend seems to be coming to a sad end. D.C.'s delegate in Congress since 1991, Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton is 88 and facing new questions about her fitness for office.

The 18-term Democrat recently filed a police report saying she was the victim of scammers posing as HVAC workers at her Capitol Hill home, allegedly conning her out of more than $4,300. After local T.V. station NBC 4 here in Washington, D.C., reported that the internal police commanders stated Norton, quote, suffers early stages of dementia, unquote, her office issued a statement that, quote, the medical diagnosis included in the police report was based on an assumption the reporting officer was unqualified to make.

Norton's office telling CNN in his statement she won't be commenting on the incident, saying, quote, the Congresswoman is allowing law enforcement to investigate and apprehend the suspects without interference.

NORTON: I yield you no ground.

TAPPER: Moments like this from 18 years ago, defending the district's right to self-govern cementing her reputation. But these days, Norton is often seen reading from prepared remarks.

NORTON: President Trump declared a crime emergency.

TAPPER: Fueling concerns about her stamina and effectiveness even among those who once worked beside her.

ROBERT WHITE (D), D.C. CITY COUNCIL: Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, someone who's worked inspired me so much that I threw aside my own legal career to work under her.

TAPPER: Now that same former aide, D.C. Council Member Robert White, is challenging his one-time boss in next year's Democratic primary.

WHITE: For 35 years, Congresswoman Norton has served the district well earning the title warrior on the Hill. But that is not a title that she can hold now.

TAPPER: Another challenger, D.C. Council Member Brooke Pinto, joined the race this month.

BROOKE PINTO (D), D.C. DELEGATE CANDIDATE: We need someone to be dynamic, then protect our District of Columbia values that are so under attack.

TAPPER: Questions about Norton's fitness have arisen before, including in 2015 after she was caught on camera hitting a neighboring vehicle while attempting to park her car at the Capitol.

[18:45:05]

Her office confirmed to Mother Jones Magazine earlier this year that the 88-year-old no longer drives, despite growing questions about her age and capacity. Norton has twice stated publicly this year that she intends to seek reelection, but her staff has since walked back or clarified those announcements, leading to accusations they're shielding the congresswoman from reporters.

REPORTER: --in "The Washington Post". Did you read --

STAFFER: We're not talking about this right now. I'm so sorry.

TAPPER (voice-over): Her office denied our request for an interview. The police report also said that Norton's quote, "caretaker power of attorney was not at residence," unquote. Norton's office denied that she has a caretaker. Covering for an aging politician is sadly par for the course in D.C.

Last year, Republican Congresswoman Kay Granger lived in an assisted living facility for dementia patients while still serving in Congress and drawing a congressional paycheck.

Since November 2022, eight sitting members of Congress have died in office, all of them Democrats. Norton situation has drawn comparisons to President Biden, who faced similar scrutiny over age and reliance on staff during his tenure, all of which is sparking internal criticism that the Democratic Party has a gerontocracy problem.

ROBERT WHITE (D), D.C. DELEGATE CANDIDATE: Like everyone else who loves her, I also recognize that she doesn't have that fire and energy in a time where D.C. really needs someone fighting on Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Delegate Norton has until March to formally file to run in the Democratic primary.

Here now is our panel, ABC News chief Washington correspondent Jonathan Karl, who is author of the brand-new book "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America".

Also with us, Democratic strategist Mo Elleithee.

Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

They want me to hold up the book. There it is -- look at that "Retribution". So great. I mean, that's -- that photograph.

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: It's quite the photograph.

TAPPER: It's quite the photograph.

So, Democrats, we should note, are still reeling from Joe Biden abandoning his reelection bid because of his age and acuity and pressure. The generational battle is going to play out in a few primaries we have coming up in the Democratic Party.

Seventy-nine-year-old senator Ed Markey in Massachusetts facing 46- year-old Congressman Seth Moulton.

In Maine, Governor Janet Mills, age 77, is running against 41-year-old Graham Platner for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate.

Why does this seem to be a particular problem for Democrats right now? Do you think, Mo?

MO ELLEITHEE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah. It's interesting. I think I have a slightly different take on it.

TAPPER: You disagree? Okay.

ELLEITHEE: Well, it's that I think everyone is trying to frame this as an -- as a generational issue, when in reality I think it's something different. When you look at Democrats, people like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who are, you know, on the older side of the spectrum, are not getting the same kind of pushback. Why? Because they're seen as fighters who are taking on the establishment, who are taking on the status quo even while they're in office. They're vibrant.

You heard time and time again in that clip, words like warrior fighting. And that seems to be what people are looking for. And you said it earlier. People age differently.

TAPPER: Yeah.

ELLEITHEE: If you are aging well and you are seen as a fighter and someone who's taking on the status quo, this is going to be a good cycle for you. If you're not, then it's not.

TAPPER: Jon, let's turn to your book. It's all about how Donald Trump campaigned on seeking retribution. And boy, is he following through on that promise. Today, CNN's reporting two federal prosecutors were placed on leave because in pursuing charges against a former pardoned January 6th rioter, they described the January 6th attack as a, quote, "mob of rioters". This is in a sentencing memo.

And this files follows firings and other U.S. attorney's offices. Prosecution of several Trump critics.

Is retribution -- is the lens of retribution, do you think the best way to view so many of President Trump's activities here?

KARL: Oh, absolutely.

And, Jake, my book sketches. Out how he got back to power and how he faced that presidential election where he faced the really -- the real possibility of going to prison or becoming the most powerful president of our lifetimes, knowing that as he was going through that, that trial in New York, the indictments in Georgia and Florida and in D.C., that he was going to get back at the people that were trying to bring him down.

And he won. And that's exactly what he's doing. And it's not just the prosecutors, it's anybody he sees. That was trying to take him down, including Republicans who didn't defend him strongly enough.

TAPPER: Some of the people he's trying to bring down, though, its very tenuous whether or not they actually had anything to do with going after him. I mean, for example, I'm thinking of the prosecutor from the eastern district of Virginia, a guy named Michael Ben'Ary, the only ammo against him was somebody hypothesized, some MAGA person hypothesized, oh, he worked for Lisa Monaco, the deputy attorney general under Biden. I bet he also opposed the Comey indictment, which he didn't, and there was no evidence of it. He still got fired.

Couldn't this hurt Trump? Because that's an experienced prosecutor going after a terrorist? Couldn't all this retribution focus hurt Trump? KARL: Well, absolutely. Because they're going through and trying to

weed out anybody who could in any way be tied to any case remotely associated with January 6th or any of the Trump prosecutions.

[18:50:06]

And in doing so, they have gutted the FBI. They have gutted the ranks of the -- of the career officials at the Justice Department. They have gutted the ranks of the Eastern District of Virginia, which, don't forget, is perhaps the most important U.S. attorneys office in the country. And counterterrorism and espionage cases.

We still face a situation where there is a terrorist threat --

TAPPER: Yeah.

KARL: -- where there is no threat from hostile powers and hostile groups, and it's Trump's watch now. And a lot of people have been rooted out for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not they are competent on the job.

TAPPER: And, Mo, we covered this earlier in the show, but the lack of guardrails and not only, you know, not only is John Kelly not there providing guardrails, President Trump is getting rid of institutions that provide guardrails, and he's able to do basically anything he wants to do, like look at the tearing down of the East Wing and the ballroom he's building.

A new Yahoo/YouGov poll finds most Americans disapprove of how this is being handled. Twenty-eight percent approve, 55 percent disapprove, 17 percent say they're unsure.

I mean, again, this -- this Trump with no guardrails, focused on retribution could end up hurting him.

ELLEITHEE: That's right. It could end up hurting him. It could also end up hurting a lot of other Republicans.

I mean, you talk about the guardrails. They're constitutionally one big guardrail is supposed to be out there. And that's the Congress.

TAPPER: What is that? What is it? What is it called?

ELLEITHEE: Yeah. Have you heard of this thing?

KARL: Bannon called it the Duma. The American Duma. Yeah.

TAPPER: Yeah.

ELLEITHEE: And as this -- as all these sort of chickens come home to roost and people start to feel the impact of this lack of expertise in the firing of all these officials and the dismantling of all these institutions. There's a midterm coming up, and they're going to ask Republicans to answer for that, who are on the ballot next year. This is going to be a political problem for them as much as anything else. TAPPER: So just one last thing before you go, Jon. Steve Bannon

floated the idea of Trump for a third term. Trump today said, I guess I'm not allowed to run based on what I read. It's pretty clear I'm not allowed to run.

So, it -- is that kind of just over?

KARL: I wouldn't say it's over, but I don't think Trump has been serious about this. I think he's done this to troll his critics.

But look, it's out there and I don't see how Trump voluntarily passes the baton to other Republicans and says, okay, I'll be a lame duck for the rest of my presidency. So, I don't know when he makes it official that he's taken a bow.

TAPPER: Again, Jon Karl's new book, "Retribution", it's on sale now, getting great reviews. Thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:56:49]

TAPPER: There's a real ripple effect when it comes to the government shutdown.

Here's CNN's Bill Weir.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After Elon Musk took a DOGE saw to the National Park Service, America's best idea was already understaffed and under siege. About a quarter of the service staff and their combined experience was lost. Then came the shutdown with furloughs and threats of more layoffs.

And under Trump, parks like Yosemite stay open. With no one at the gates and a skeleton staff, one of the worst ideas for national park health, according to 43 former superintendents. They tried but failed to convince Interior Secretary Doug Burgum to protect the nation's most cherished landscapes from unmanaged crowds.

KEN YAGER, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, YOSEMITE CLIMBER ASSOCIATION: I'm concerned definitely. I've seen this kind of stuff before in the past. This one feels a little different. I have a feeling it's going to last a lot longer.

WEIR (voice-over): As founder of the Yosemite Climbers Association, Ken Yager has been a fixture on rocks like El Capitan for over 50 years.

YAGER: I worry about damage in a lot of ways to these parks when you've got so many people in a national park like this, it disrupts the wildlife, disrupts the plant life. Trash gets left everywhere. I clean up trash. That's what I've been doing for 22 years with a bunch of volunteers in Yosemite facelift, and we've cleaned up 1.2 million pounds of trash.

WEIR: Wow.

YAGER: So, it can show you how much and how quickly it'll build up.

WEIR (voice-over): A reservation system is supposed to control the numbers. Hiking up half dome, but social media shows moments of crowded chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never seen that before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right in the middle of the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) meadow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well --

WEIR (voice-over): Older base jumpers and drone pilots. Last year, there were 15 campground rangers in Yosemite Valley. This summer, just six who also had to pitch in on basic maintenance alongside goodhearted citizens.

WEIR: I know a lot of volunteers are sort of filling the gap in these shutdown days. Who are these folks?

AVA LEWIS, YOSEMITE VOLUNTEER: A lot of them are furloughed employees or folks that work with concessionaire or like people in the local community and people that just really care about this place and care about this park.

CORY GOEHRING, OUTDOOR PROGRAMS MANAGER AND NATURALIST, YOSEMITE CONSERVANCY: For the most part, I think we're seeing the best of people come out at this time.

WEIR (voice-over): Volunteers like Corey Goehring from the nonprofit Yosemite Conservancy are trying to provide as much basic info as they can. But he says days like these remind Americans that the park belongs to them, and its time to be a good steward.

GOEHRING: Number one, and I think the most important, plan ahead and prepare. Number two, travel and camp on durable surfaces. Number three, dispose of waste properly.

Number four, basically leave what you find. Take only pictures. Leave only footprints.

WEIR: That's the one my dad hammered into me.

GOEHRING: Yeah. And number five, you know, only used established fire rings. Number six, respect wildlife.

WEIR: Ooh, okay. I love that.

GOEHRING: So, keep wildlife is a difference.

WEIR: Yeah.

GOEHRING: And then number seven, yeah, respect each other while you're here. While you're visiting.

WEIR (voice-over): But good campers can't control invasive species or protect wildlife from poachers or identify archeological wonder. Like the pros can.

LEWIS: More traffic through the park. And, you know, people going off trail and litter and all those things really add up when you don't have full staffing in the park.

WEIR: Right.

LEWIS: So, you know, folks like me will go around and we fill in the gaps where we can. But it's -- it's not nearly enough.

WEIR: That's not sustainable long term.

LEWIS: No, it's not. And a lot of us, you know, were just passing through. We're visiting.

WEIR: Yeah.

LEWIS: People are coming for their weekend vacation or something. So, we need -- we need the people that are here. Boots on the ground.

WEIR (voice-over): Bill Weir, CNN, Yosemite Valley, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.