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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump: Seditious' Democrat Message Punishable By "Death"; DOJ Has 30 Days To Release The Epstein Files After Trump Signs Bill; ISIS Fills Void Created By Cutoff Of U.S. Aid; George W. Bush And Liz Cheney Give Eulogies For Former VP; Voters In Pa Swing District Grapple With Rising Prices. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired November 20, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[17:00:14]
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate y' all being here. Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well. Don't forget, you can now stream the arena live or catch up whenever you want in the CNN app. Just scan that QR code below.
You can also catch up by listening to our podcast, follow the show on X and Instagram at The Arena CNN. Jake Tapper is standing by for The Lead. Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. Good to see you. We'll see you back in The Arena tomorrow.
HUNT: See you tomorrow.
TAPPER: The president just called for the execution of some congressional Democrats. You heard me. The Lead starts right now.
A video apparently has President Trump ticked off in which Democratic lawmakers remind troops that they need not abide by illegal orders. The president called that sedition. It isn't said. That they're traitors. They aren't. And also said that they should be executed. They shouldn't.
Whatever happened to bringing down the temperature post Charlie Kirk's murder?
Plus, the Epstein files, how much will the public really get to see from the Justice Department? The former chief of staff to Attorney General Pam Bondi will be here on The Lead.
And aliens on Earth, what could that be true? A film director who wants you to hear him out.
Welcome to Thea Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. An explosive and unhinged presidential threat tops our politics lead today. Quote, seditious behavior punishable by death. That's President
Trump's message on Truth Social this morning in response to six Democratic lawmakers, all of them former military or intelligence officials, who appeared in a video reminding U.S. servicemembers that they are not obligated to carry out illegal orders. Listen to part of the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): You can refuse illegal orders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: We need you to stand up for our laws.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our constitution.
KELLY: And who we are as Americans. Don't give up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't give up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't give up.
SLOTKIN: Don't give up the ship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: President Trump wrote. Their words cannot be allowed to stand. Seditious behavior from traitors, Lock them up, unquote. He also reposted hang them. George Washington would. Again, just to remind you, this is the president of the United States at a time of dangerous political violence in this country, suggesting that six Democrats be killed for saying that troops shouldn't break any laws.
So what were these Democratic lawmakers concerned about? Well, as of today, they would be justifiably concerned about a commander in chief saying they should be executed for comments that do not even vaguely meet the definition of sedition.
But beyond that, the lawmakers were primarily concerned about U.S. troops being dispatched to American cities and the possibility of troops being told to use violence against American citizens peacefully protesting. They were concerned about the deployment of the military to polling stations.
Remember five years ago when Black Lives Matter protesters were outside the White House in 2020, the president asked privately his military advisors if U.S. troops could shoot those protesters. That's according to then Secretary of Defense Mark Esper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I was just dumbstruck by it. And he was speaking to General Mark Milley when he asked that question of, you know, can't you just shoot him? Just shoot him in the legs or something. And I was, you know, shocked by it to hear this from the President of the United States saying that we shoot our fellow Americans in the streets of the nation's capital.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now, that was back when President Trump had a cabinet that included people who were willing to tell him, no, such no longer seems to be the case. And if you were hoping for congressional guardrails of any sort, well, if wishes were horses, rides would be free.
Today, the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, defended Trump's posts calling for his congressional colleagues to be executed. He called the Democrats video wildly inappropriate. And here is what the White House press secretary had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just to be clear, does the president want to execute members of Congress?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARRY: No. Let's be clear about what the president is responding to, because many in this room want to talk about the president's response, but not what brought the president to responding in this way.
We have 1.3 active duty service members in this country, and if they hear this radical message from sitting members of Congress, that could inspire chaos and it could incite violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: There is a disciplinary track in the U.S. Military for service members who disobey orders, and they can ultimately be charged with insubordination.
[17:05:06]
There is a mechanism for this. If Karoline Leavitt is worried about messages that could incite chaos and inspire violence, well, that call is coming from inside the House, the White House. Now, this outburst comes after quite a week for President Trump, whose poll numbers are sinking lower while the world girds for the release of the Epstein files that he and his administration fought so hard to keep us all from seeing.
When one woman reporter asked the President about those files a few days ago, he said to her, quote, quiet, piggy. To another woman reporter, he insulted her as a bad person and a bad reporter. She happens to be a good person and a good reporter.
He also would not criticize neo-Nazi Nick Fuentes when asked. And he seemed to support the notion of conservative voices platforming Nick Fuentes without any pushback or criticism. He also got mad at the press for asking about the fact that U.S. intelligence agencies assessed that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, whom the President welcomed with open arms into the White House this week, that MBS ordered the murder of a Washington Post columnist.
And then the President criticized the murdered columnist, almost suggesting that he had it coming. All of this just in the last six days. And, folks, it's only Thursday.
Joining us now, House Armed Services Committee member and Democrat From New Hampshire's 2nd congressional district, Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander. Congresswoman, you're one of the six Democrats in that video.
I want your reaction to what the White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt, said in this briefing. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: Maggie Goodlander was a naval officer, and notably, she was also -- she is also the wife of Joe Biden's National Security Force former adviser Jake Sullivan. And so these members knew what they were doing. That is a very, very dangerous message, and it perhaps is punishable by law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What's your response, Congresswoman?
REP. MAGGIE GOODLANDER (D-NH): Well, Jake, thanks for having me. Look, I never thought that simply and clearly stating federal law would ever cause the President of the United States, the Commander-in-Chief, to threaten violence against me and members of Congress.
Look, our message is clear to our service members, and I think it's a really important one in this moment. Our laws are clear. We all take an oath to the same Constitution, and it is our responsibility as the ones who write the laws to be clear about what they say. The Uniform Code of Military justice is crystal clear on this point. It is the obligation of every service member to obey lawful orders and lawful orders only.
And that's our simple and clear message, and it's an important one because there are legitimate concerns that this president is going to issue and has issued unlawful orders to American troops who are operating on American soil. That's just not who we are as a country. And these kinds of threats of violence are not who we are as a country.
TAPPER: So can you give an example of an unlawful order that you think he has issued?
GOODLANDER: Well, Jake, I think you cited one at the very beginning of this show. We know if we take a look at the track record of the first Trump administration, what we saw, you know, and I served under three presidents of different parties, including under President Trump, under six separate Secretaries of Defense. Secretary of Defense Mark Esper was asked to carry out a set of orders that he thought did not comply with the law, was not prepared to support the invocation of the Insurrection Act. He was not prepared to carry out an order to send American troops on peaceful protesters.
And look, this is a basic set of judgments, and it's a core American and constitutional principle. Public trust is essential to public safety and to our national security. And the public and our service members who have been put in an impossible situation right now need to know that Congress has got their back. It's what I would want to hear if I were still serving in the Navy. And that's -- that is our simple and clear message.
TAPPER: So you served as an intelligence officer in the Navy Reserve for more than a decade. Did you ever get an order that you thought was illegal?
GOODLANDER: Jake, I did not. And look, we are in a -- we are a new terrain here. We see a President of the United States and a Secretary of Defense who are testing the boundaries of the basic and core principles of our Constitution. When Secretary Hagseth appeared before the House Armed Services Committee, I asked him a very simple question, a question that has only one right answer. I asked him if he would obey a decision of the United States Supreme Court. He refused to commit to doing so.
This is stunning. This is downright dangerous. And that is the brave new world that we're all living through. But our commitment to our service members and to our Constitution is clear, and that is we will not give up the ship.
[17:10:00]
TAPPER: At this point, I think we're all familiar with the term stochastic terrorism. But just in case people out there don't know, it's when somebody in power or with a megaphone starts criticizing somebody else and there is violence committed against that person. And it can't be directly tied to the calls for violence or criticism, but it is related.
Senate Democratic leader Schumer says that he has called Capitol Police to give extra protection to Democrats after Trump's remarks. Are you worried about your safety?
GOODLANDER: Jake, it's hard not to be when the President of the United States threatens you with violence. But the bottom line is this is not about me. This is not about any other member of Congress. This is about our commitment to the Constitution. And it's about a clear statement of federal law. This is a moment for moral clarity and for legal clarity. And that is what we're doing here.
Our service members need to know that we've got their back. We've got their back as they uphold their oath, their sacred obligation to our Constitution and as they uphold their basic obligation to comply with federal law. And the federal law is clear. Lawful orders are to be obeyed and only lawful orders are to be obeyed.
TAPPER: Freshman congresswoman and Naval Reservist Maggie Goodlander, thank you so much. Appreciate your time. Congratulations, Congresswoman.
Coming up next, the man who was Attorney General Pam Bondi's top advisor up until a few weeks ago, what he can tell us about the Epstein files and how much the Justice Department might reveal.
Plus, the talk across America about Trump's economic policies, what a hairdresser in a swing district in Pennsylvania is telling her clients to do to help them stretch a dollar.
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TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, today, President Trump signed into law that legislation that forces the release of the Epstein files. It happened last night. No cameras, no signing ceremony, just a truth social post afterwards where the President attempted to take credit for the overwhelming votes in Congress.
When of course, in reality, the President and his administration seemed to fight the release tooth and nail until it became clear that he was going to lose this big vote in Congress. So now what? Well, yesterday Attorney General Pam Bondi said the Justice Department would follow the law, and that law requires the files to be released within 30 days of Trump's signature.
There are, of course, questions of whether the Justice Department will use the recent Trump ordered criminal investigations into Democrats as a possible excuse to keep at least some of the files under wrap because of an ongoing investigation.
Let's discuss all of this with Chad Mizelle. He was the Justice Department chief under Attorney General Pam Bondi and chief of staff, and he left last month to return to his family in Tampa. Chad, thanks so much for coming here.
So what exactly, I know it's speculation, obviously, but what exactly do you think the Justice Department will release in the next 30 days? Beyond the survivors names, how much do you think will be redacted?
CHAD MIZELLE, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL BONDI: Jake, this is why I love the bill, right? It requires the release of all information. And then in addition to that, it says any redactions have to be justified and explained. Anything, any classified information needs to be summarized. And ultimately they want a list of every single political person, government official, foreign dignitary who appears in this list.
This is going to be the most comprehensive list. And I think that's important because as President Trump pointed out early in February, Pam Bondi released hundreds of pages of Epstein's files. Then in September, an additional 30,000 pages released. Just last week we had an additional 20,000 pages released. Now it's never enough. It seems like this is finally going to put an end to that.
TAPPER: Well, let's talk about that, because as you note, at the end of February, the Trump administration gave a bunch of files to a number of MAGA influencers. Experts say that all of those files had already been released. What was that about?
MIZELLE: So a number of files were released. That was just part of phase one. There were tens of thousands of documents over the course of DOJ without a single piece of legislation to being released. But one thing, Jake, that I think is important to reiterate. Donald Trump has been consistent from day one, whether it was a Cabinet meeting months ago to his latest true social post. He has said the Epstein files is a distraction.
And this is a man who knows distraction. Right. He lived through the Russia hoax. He lived through the Ukraine hoax. He lived through the good people on both sides hoax. Whereas the greatest hoax his predecessor had to deal with was that Joe Biden was competent.
He wants to return to the real issues that are facing America. Securing the border and enforcing our immigration laws, reducing inflation, reducing violent crime, securing unprecedented investment into the United States. That is what he wants to focus on. He's been very consistent with that. And that is what Republicans ought to start doing right now.
TAPPER: I don't want to dive down the rabbit hole of Russiagate and Ukraine and both sides, but there are a lot of people, including myself, would say those are not hoaxes and they're much more complicated than you just depicted. But let's focus on Epstein files, because the same month of February, Attorney General Bondi said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So can you clear that up? Because ultimately the Justice Department said there is no Epstein client list. But right there in that clip, she seemed to suggest it was sitting on her desk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIZELLE: First. Jake, she's addressed this. She addressed this at a Cabinet meeting with President Trump right there. If you continue to play the whole clip, she's talking about a number of files, not just a purported client list, which she was referring to the Epstein files were on her desk. The MLK files she continues to say were on her desk. The JFK files were on her desk. She released all the files that she'd been given from the FBI. And then you saw the letter that she issued, getting more information.
Again, we continue to go through that produced tens of thousands of pages to Congress, which Congress then released to the public. The Epstein Estate produced 20,000 additional pages. We've had a total of 50,000 pages released. Still, people are calling for more. By the way, Joe Biden released zero pages of Epstein.
[17:20:00]
So DOJ already has been more transparent than any DOJ in the past, even though this guy has been around for two decades. And now with this new legislation, they're going to be even more transparent.
TAPPER: Yes. Look, I'm not going to defend any president not releasing the lists. I think that because Ghislaine Maxwell was prosecuted and appealing, there was a legal argument that you couldn't release files because her appeal was still pending. But I'm glad as many files are out and I'm excited for the more. I don't even know how many files we're talking about.
How many files you said the Epstein files were on our desk. Obviously there are too many files to be one person's desk. How many files are we actually talking about here that are going to be released?
MIZELLE: Jake, I don't know the exact number. I know it is a lot of information. The exact number of files, the exact number of pages. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. It's a lot.
TAPPER: One other thing I want to ask about the Epstein files is that in July, as you know, the Justice Department said issued a memo saying there was basically nothing left to investigate in those files. But now, obviously, the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York is investigating what President Trump has ordered him to investigate. Bill Clinton and Larry Summers and any other Democrats possible ties to Epstein. So there is an investigation. Even after the Justice Department said there's no need for any more investigations.
Yesterday the attorney General was asked what changed. Here's what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: Information that has come for -- information. There's information that new information, additional information. And again, we will continue to follow the law to investigate any leads.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: There are a lot of people out there who think like the new information she's talking about is just the information that the President wants Democrats investigated. What is the new information?
MIZELLE: Jake, I'm not entirely clear what the new information is. I think any sort of information that may have been there came after my tenure. I do know that the Epstein estate again turned over 20,000 emails. There may be additional information associated with that. I'm not quite sure. But what I will say is that Jay Clayton, SDNY, he's a man I know personally of utmost integrity, he's going to get to the bottom of it.
TAPPER: All right, Chad Mizelle, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time.
MIZELLE: Thanks, Jake.
TAPPER: On the Epstein files, exactly what does the Justice Department have and is there a paper trail? If someone were to tamper with the data, would we know? A former deputy FBI director will join us next.
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[17:26:43]
TAPPER: And we're back with our Law and Justice Lead, 30 days. 30 days. That's the amount of time the Justice Department has before they have to release the documents related to Jeffrey Epstein. Let's dig deeper in what we can expect to see with the former FBI deputy director Andy McCabe.
So Andy, just so people can visualize this, where are these files even located and what do they look like? I mean, I think a lot of people out there probably like visualize the end scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark was a government warehouse and just box after box.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's what it looked like when I started --
TAPPER: Right.
MCCABE: -- back in the mid-90s. But all of that has changed. Obviously all the files are electronic now, and so they can be accessed from any FBI office. The FBI entity that's responsible for maintaining those records and more critically processing FOIA requests from the public and from journalists is actually out at a special facility in Western Virginia.
And so the folks that work there work incredibly hard. They do this every day, taking out files, reviewing what can be released, redacting things that shouldn't be released, and going through that process.
TAPPER: It's hard to imagine just how many federal investigators and prosecutors have already gone through these files. I mean, Epstein has been a bad actor for decades. He was first arrested, I think -- I think the first police raid on his house was like 2004.
Is it possible anything would be missing? And would we even know?
MCCABE: Highly unlikely in my view. Now, those early investigations done by, you know, West Palm police and the Sheriff's office and then ultimately handed over to the U.S. attorney's office. A lot of questions and issues with the way decisions were made around those cases.
But, you know, in 2017, the Southern District of New York took over this case. And they would have had access to everything the government had. They also had the opportunity to conduct their own investigations, serve subpoenas, talk to witnesses, identify victims, that sort of thing. They had the benefit of great journalists like Julie K. Brown, whose piece is ran in the Miami Herald.
They did that work and came away determining only two people could be charged. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. So the idea that thorough a review and all that work was done so recently and that all of a sudden now we're going to come up with new evidence seems far- fetched to me.
TAPPER: Is it not possible that the reason they concluded that is because the defendants hypothetically would be very, very wealthy, powerful men, and the key witnesses would be young women with troubled histories whom Maxwell and Epstein preyed upon.
And a lot of times, like, it's tough to prosecute a pimp because the witnesses are all hookers. I mean, that's like what people in like DA's office think. And so is it. Is it possible there's -- there's like this anachronistic kind of thinking of we can't go after Magnate X because it's just the word of these three girls who the defense attorneys will destroy on cross.
MCCABE: There's some credible allegations that sort of thinking may have infected the early investigation and been factored in by prosecutors in the Southern District of Florida when they ultimately determined to give what is thought by many people to have been a sweetheart deal to Jeffrey Epstein. The victims would have been much younger at that time. And if they were experiencing trouble in their lives, that would have undermined their credibility on the stand. That would have been a very ripe thing in that moment.
[17:30:09]
But the Southern District's work in 2017 comes at a very different time. I don't think that prosecutors in the Southern District would have been turned off by the idea of going after high profile, high net worth people with very good attorneys. And they would have had the advantage of working with victims who were much older and had likely passed through those troubled phases and were in a better position to testify.
TAPPER: All right, former FBI Deputy Director Andy McCabe, thanks so much.
Coming up, following the money, what happened in all those countries where the Trump administration suddenly yanked USAID funds? Well, in one South African nation, terrorism. See what a CNN reporter uncovered there.
But first, breaking news. Intense rains right now in Central Texas. This is in the same region where flooding killed some 120 people over the July 4th weekend, including all those children at Camp Mystic. We're going to be monitoring the situation. We'll be right back.
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[17:35:10]
TAPPER: In our World Lead, an update to a story that got lots of attention earlier this year, those DOGE-inspired cuts that gutted the U.S. Agency for International Development, or USAID. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh recently visited the Southeastern African nation of Mozambique, where the vacuum left by that aid being cut off is being filled by ISIS with bloody, horrifying results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: It looks like a place where nothing should go. But ISIS are seeing a resurgence across Africa, home to two-thirds of their global violence this year, rising fast here in northern Mozambique. We land in the flashpoint of Mocimboa da Praia, seven weeks after ISIS started their worst offensive since they occupied the town in 2021. The government's grip is so shaky, they've let Rwandan forces in to be the real muscle on streets where ISIS seem to rule the night.
WALSH: So USAID's contribution to Mozambique amounted to about 3 percent of its GDP. And that USAID money helped the economy here, developments, schools, really enabled the government to try and promote its hold on the place. And so now that money's suddenly vanished, well, they're reeling here, and ISIS are back.
WALSH (voice-over): The little video we have of ISIS's recent onslaught is terrifying, outgunning Mozambican forces, slaughtering captives. But in October, they tried something new, less savage and confident. They walked unopposed, armed, in stolen uniforms, straight into this mosque in Mocimboa's coastal fishing community to deliver a manifesto.
The crowd didn't flee, but instead filmed. When ISIS arrived, asked for the keys, and walked in wearing their boots, the imam had presumed they were soldiers.
WALSH: What did you think on that night when these guys came in?
SUMAIL ISSA, IMAM (through audio translation): They ordered the old man, asking for the microphone to broadcast their voices. When they displayed their banner like this, I was surprised that they are Al- Shabab.
WALSH: It is extraordinary, after all these years of ISIS's spread across the Middle East, to stand in -- startling to stand in a place where they had freedom of movement just a couple of days ago.
WALSH (voice-over): Ninety-three thousand people around this area fled in just six weeks after ISIS's attacks began on September 7th. Rafael takes us directly to the home of his brother-in-law, now abandoned. They were not rich, and also took USAID.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): He was tied up. They took a stick and beat him. They cut off his head and put it on his bottom. This place you see here is where we laid my son's spilled blood. You are going to make me cry because of my son. My son, I lost him. My feelings for my son. You're going to make me cry. I didn't want to come here. He was calling me, papa, papa. WALSH: Eight men killed by ISIS, seven of them beheaded, some in front of their families. And you just, for looking around, I mean, there's nobody here. It's startling. This used to be a vibrant area, Christian area.
WALSH (voice-over): The money USAID spent here urgently tried to curb the spread of ISIS. They gave $50,000 here to help motorcycle taxi drivers vulnerable to recruitment by ISIS improve their working conditions with paperwork, vests and helmets. Their anger about that help suddenly disappearing and then asking questions clear.
WALSH: Emotions incredibly high here. I mean, it's all about people's livelihoods, really, and a lot of anger.
WALSH (voice-over): The man who ran the project describes how it is the only way to stop ISIS.
KHAMISSA FABIAO, PROJECT COORDINATOR (through audio translation): If they have opportunity to earn money I don't think they will go into the jungle because nobody wants to die. When we started this project I personally recruited many young people to keep them integrated into society. President Trump should have a heart.
WALSH (voice-over): Fishermen, the main workforce here, but also a source of ISIS recruits. We visit a USAID project aimed, too, at giving them a better livelihood, now shut. Ten thousand new arrivals in this camp alone were met with a steep drop in food aid.
[17:39:57]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through audio translation): They come and immediately start shooting. There is war. Beheaded. You flee with nothing. They come and cut you throat. When you see someone else being killed you flee alone to a safe place. Since we arrive here we sleep on the floor.
WALSH (voice-over): But Mozambique could be rich. Around the town of Parma, shielded by these fortifications, it's clear that while the Trump administration is stripping away aid here, it's also investing fast and hard. A $4.7 billion loan in March in vast liquid natural gas facilities, a contradiction where wealth is held up by a wave of ISIS savagery, which surged after the USAID meant to calm it vanished.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Mocimboa da Praia, Mozambique.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: Asked for comment, the U.S. State Department told CNN that it still provided lifesaving food aid to Mozambique this year and reviewed global aid constantly to "ensure it meets the needs of the receiving country and the priorities of the United States." The State Department did not answer our questions about the resurgence of ISIS in Mozambique after USAID shut down. But they did say the U.S. was "the most generous nation in the world" and was enhancing the "efficiency and strategic impact of its aid, calling on other nations to do more." Former Vice President Dick Cheney once called President Trump a coward and said he did not want him at his funeral. Cheney got the last word. Our panel weighs in with some thoughts of their own.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[17:45:50]
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You did not know Dick Cheney unless you understood his greatest concerns and ambitions were for his country.
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Though he was inspired to service by President Kennedy, Dick Cheney became a Republican. For him, a choice between defense of the Constitution and defense of your political party was no choice at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Today, the nation paid respects to the 46th Vice President Dick Cheney, who died earlier this month at the age of 84. Former President George W. Bush and his daughter there, former Congresswoman Liz Cheney, gathered along with former President Joe Biden and all four living former vice presidents, Kamala Harris, Mike Pence, Al Gore, and Dan Quayle, to honor Cheney's life of public service.
Here now to discuss CNN's John King, former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger and CNN political commentator Karen Finney. And John, you were at the funeral this morning. Two very notable figures were not there, President Trump and Vice President Vance. Pretty striking.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It was striking. It was like I was saying it was like being in a time machine or having time travel to be in a place where mostly Republicans but also Democrats were kind of saying, oh, remember when Washington was like this, where we could disagree but do it agreeably? Think about Dick Cheney's life. Gerald Ford's chief of staff. Then a loyal Reagan revolution foot soldier in the Congress. George H.W. Bush's defense secretary, George W. Bush's vice president rode the wave of so many transitions in the Republican Party, successfully thrived in those changes.
Trump was a bridge too far. You're sitting there today thinking that this proud, principled conservative, his last vote for president, Jake, was for a Democrat.
TAPPER: Yes.
KING: She was sitting there.
TAPPER: So both Cheney and Liz Cheney endorsed Kamala Harris over Trump in the last election in a 2022 campaign ad for his daughter Liz's failed reelection bid in Wyoming. Vice President Cheney made it very clear what he thought of President Trump. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. He is a coward. A real man wouldn't lie to his supporters. He lost his election and he lost big. I know it. He knows it. And deep down, I think most Republicans know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Congressman Kinzinger, you were at the cathedral today as well for the service. President Trump has a lock on the Republican Party. Liz Cheney lost her reelection bid because she stood up to Trump. Vice President Vance made a disparaging comment about Vice President Cheney just the other day after he died. It's -- it's Trump's party.
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it is. It's not a surprise. I mean, just the classlessness you see come out of the White House is -- is constant. For me, it was amazing to be in there to see people on the left, on the right, in the center, people you'd never expect to see at -- at a Dick Cheney thing, right. All there together, celebrating the fact that this man was honorable.
And then I come out and read the story about, you know, calling for the execution of -- of Congress people. And to me, it was just such a different such a -- such a contrast. And so to know J.D. Vance said, no, Trump would say that they own the Republican Party. My hope is in five or 10 years we have a party that looks more like it used to. But I'm not holding my breath, to be honest with you.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, that was something I was thinking, watching it. That's actually what normal is supposed to look like, what we're every single day into the Trump presidency. I feel like we have to keep reminding ourselves, no, that's not normal. It's not normal for a president to say things like that or to, you know, post things like that on social media.
It should be that when someone passes, people can come together, honor their service to this country, whether you agreed with them or not. Obviously, there's a lot of things I did not agree with Dick Cheney about. I thought his grandchildren were just lovely and it was heartwarming, right. And you feel for a family when something like that happens.
And -- and yet I was actually surprised we didn't hear something horrible from Donald Trump about him today. And but yet there's still a few more hours left in the day, so.
TAPPER: So I mean, the other thing is -- the other thing is that, look, I mean, we shouldn't gloss over. I mean, they were bitter partisan fights during the Bush years --
FINNEY: Yes.
TAPPER: -- when he was vice president and the stakes were big. War and peace, you know, Social Security, tax cuts, a lot of things. But at the end of the day, there was this understanding, even if you really went after your -- I mean, like we shouldn't gloss over the fact that these were -- this was -- it was a bitter and divided time. It's just you still could see the humanity in the other person.
[17:50:20]
KING: Dick Cheney was very soft spoken, spoken a quiet voice, but it was always clear what he was trying to tell you. If he had a point to make, he would make it. And I think that, you know, give the Iraq war, the Iraq war divided this country, especially the execution of it. You know, should we have gone to war was one big debate, but then the execution of it was clearly troublesome. And that divide -- that made Barack Obama president. It completely changed our politics.
However, even the people who disagree with Cheney profoundly talk about the respect and they understood they disagreed with him, but his commitment to service, his commitment to country was just irrefutable. So that -- that respect is what's missing and lost.
TAPPER: Former Vice President Mike Pence, another notable Republican who's on at odds with Donald Trump. He was asked by CNN's Jeff Zeleny about this bitter divide right now. And if we can overcome it, here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, I'm confident it can. Look, our politics are more divided than any time in my lifetime. But I'm not convinced the American people are as divided as our politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What do you think?
KINZINGER: I agree that it can and -- and actually long, I'm very optimistic on kind of --
TAPPER: That we can overcome.
KINZINGER: Yes, long. In the short and medium term, it's really difficult. I mean, look, the incentive structure is to the extremes, right? If you're a Republican, you cannot win a primary without being crazier than the other person you're running against. But I do think through this kind of last Trump term over the next three years, my hope and expectation is that's going to start to get fatiguing to people. The question is what replaces it.
Does kind of old school Republicanism come back? I wish I could say I was optimistic. Or is it somebody else that tries to pick up the Trump mantle, even though Trump is uniquely capable of doing what he does?
TAPPER: What do you think, Karen?
FINNEY: Well, I think it's one of the things, again, why it's important to say this is not normal, because I do think about young politicians who are seeing and learning from Trump and thinking, oh, that's how it's done. And no, actually, that's not how it should be done. What we saw today is more like. And again, you're right. Bitter fights. Democrats call them Darth Vader. I don't want to gloss over that either.
But at the end of the day, I certainly still thought that the Bush Education Department thought it was important that kids learned how to read this. I don't know what Donald Trump believes, if that's important or not.
KINZINGER: So, and like the Bush administration, you know, basically solves, in essence, HIV in Africa.
FINNEY: That's right.
KINZINGER: I mean, that's a real -- this administration destroys that for no reason, while the guy that's going to be the first trillionaire in the country runs around with a chainsaw and giggles because he cuts USAID.
TAPPER: Karen Finney and Adam Kinzinger, thanks so much to both of you. John King, stay right here. John's going to come right back with his visit to one of the most competitive districts in the nation in my home commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Hear what voters there in the Lehigh Valley told him about affordability and President Trump, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:57:14]
TAPPER: And we're back in our Politics Lead, a new destination for John King's great series All Over the Map. He went to a critical swing district in Pennsylvania. Here's how affordability is impacting voters there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): Bethlehem is blue collar, full of people living paycheck to paycheck, full of people who come to Jenique Jones for help.
JENIQUE JONES, PA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: My business assists people in repairing their credit, managing their finances and basically being financially organized.
KING: So if you're busy, times are tough.
JONES: Absolutely. Completely.
KING: And you're busy right now?
JONES: Super busy.
KING: What kind of stories are you hearing?
JONES: My husband lost all of his overtime. My kid's daycare went up. Can't afford the cost of food. Using credit cards for everyday expenses. No money left after their bills are paid. Pretty much just a whole bunch of financial mess.
KING: We changed presidents at the beginning of the year.
JONES: We did.
KING: And the guy who moved into the White House said that he was going to fix it. Several times he said it would be easy.
JONES: Absolutely.
KING: Has he fixed it?
JONES: Absolutely not. I'm definitely waiting for him to fix it.
KING (voice-over): Jones is a three time Trump voter, but she says he has simply failed to keep his promise to lower the cost of living.
JONES: I'm -- I'm very let down by that. Very, very let down because it's I feel like it's only gotten worse.
KING (voice-over): This is Gentleman's Barbershop. Customers gripe a lot about rising costs. Ashley Ruiz tries to help.
ASHLEY RUIZ, PA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: I'll tell the client, hey, if you get it cut a little shorter, the haircut will have a longer lifeline because I want them to feel like they're getting a service that will last longer. So their money goes further.
KING (voice-over): She gets it because she does the tough math at home, rent, food, child care.
KING: All up.
RUIZ: They are a lot higher. So I try to make wiser decisions and hope that things will get better.
KING (voice-over): Owner Ronald Corales is another three time Trump voter. When clients or co-workers grumble about costs, Corales urges patience.
RONALD CORALES, PA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: Well, hopefully soon, you know, like --
KING: But it hasn't happened yet.
CORALES: Not really. We don't really see it at the moment. Like I said, I think we have to give him some time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: You hear there, give him some more time from a three-time Trump voter. We met many Trump voters who say let's try to be patient. But they all also say costs have not gone down as the President promised. And Jake, you know this area well. A freshman Republican won that district. As Trump carried Pennsylvania last time carried Northampton County where Bethlehem is, he pulled along the new freshman Republican Democrats think the same reason that happened, affordability will be their calling card next year when they try to take that seat back.
TAPPER: Yes. And he barely won like 4,000 votes or something like that. John King, thanks so much.
[18:00:05]
And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, how can the U.S. have a strong --
