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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Now, Trump Admin Briefing Key Lawmakers On Venezuela; Trump Threatens Other Countries As Maduro Pleads Not Guilty; Maduro's V.P. Sworn In As Venezuela's Acting President; Trump Insists The U.S. Is "In Charge" Of Venezuela; Trump Says U.S. Oil Companies To "Rebuild" In Venezuela. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired January 05, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start with the breaking news on our World Lead right now on Capitol Hill. The top Republican and Democratic lawmakers on the Senate and House Foreign Relations, Intelligence, and Armed Services Committees, along with the leaders of the House and Senate and the Democratic and Republican parties, are getting a classified briefing from members of the Trump administration, including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, and others.

The briefing comes after President Trump ordered the U.S. military to conduct, unprecedented strikes on Venezuela and capture its leader, Nicolas Maduro, and his wife.

[18:00:07]

This afternoon, Maduro and his wife, a co-defendant, appeared in a New York City courthouse and entered not guilty pleas. The ousted leader faces drugs and weapons charges and is not seeking bail for now.

CNN's Manu Raju is right outside the classified briefing. Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this has been going on, Jake, for now about 30 minutes, top briefers from the administration walking in behind closed doors with a small subset of the larger members of Congress. This is just the leaders of both the House and the Senate, Republican and Democrat, people who sit on key committees, and also people who ordinarily would have been briefed ahead of time, members of the so-called Gang of Eight who are part of this briefing.

Typically, before a mission of this magnitude, the Gang of Eight would have at least been notified that this strike was happening. That did not happen this time. In fact, it happened after the fact. That has rankled a lot of the Democrat senators (ph), Democrats in particular, said that this was a violation of the law and the way that this was carried out. Republicans, on the other hand, have defended the administration's decision not to brief members of Congress, including Senator John Thune, the Senate majority leader, who told me earlier today that he had no issue about not getting briefed, saying he was perfectly content about the notification that he did receive, which was that when the admission was ongoing, he was fine with it. But he also had questions about the objectives and everything that was going on here. I asked him about Donald Trump saying that United States would run Venezuela, if he was okay with that. He said, we need to get answers to that. I said, do you know what the president meant for the about that? He said, I need to get more answers about that.

And that's a Senate Majority leader unclear about what the president means about such a significant action if the United States were in fact to run Venezuela. In fact, Jake, I've talked to so many Republican senators today, people who have also not been briefed about Trump saying they should run Venezuela. They are all offering different interpretations about what Donald Trump precisely meant, which underscores the reason why this briefing is happening, because people want answers to what happened in Venezuela and what is next.

Right before this briefing, Speaker Mike Johnson spoke to reporters. He seemed content about the level of information he has gotten so far, even though he also was not notified ahead of time before the strike occurred.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): This is an operation that only required notice to Congress and not prior authorization.

Marco Rubio called me at 4:00 A.M. They did their duty. They notified Congress, the top officials, and as many as they could. And as they have said, they've been on the phone constantly with members and they sent it in the House. They're doing exactly what they should do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: But the question is, how much information will these members get behind and closed doors? Because there are so many questions, Jake, will U.S. troops be needed? How much will this cost taxpayers? What exactly is the objective? How do they plan to deal with the oil that Donald Trump says that the United States plans to seize and extract? And what about the government that is now in place in Venezuela? How will the United States handle that? All hugely significant questions. Will they get the answers there? That's the big question, but we do expect to hear from at least some of the members and potentially some of the briefers who are coming to the mics behind me to talk about this briefing once it wraps up here in a matter of minutes. Jake?

TAPPER: Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thank you.

Let's go to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House. Kaitlan, President Trump seems pretty pleased with the success of the operation, so much so he's even suggesting threats to other countries.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, we haven't actually seen the president here at the White House today. He hasn't appeared before cameras. He's obviously been in inside the West Wing. But that remarkable gaggle last night that he held with reporters as he flew back to Washington from Palm Beach, of course, his Mar-a-Lago Club, where he oversaw this entire operation to go in and capture Maduro, take place.

The president was hinting to reporters very strongly, Jake, that there could be a lot more to come on this front, when it comes to Columbia, where the president was saying that asked essentially basically if we could see something similar to what happened in Venezuela playing out there, the president said that sounds good to him.

He suggested that there could be -- that Cuba could fall without intervention actually happening. He also said, Jake, in recent days, that something would have to be done about Mexico as well. And when asked about Greenland, you know, given the comments that you just heard from Stephen Miller to you there, Jake, the president, told reporters basically yesterday to ask him about that again in the next 20 days to 2 months, certainly suggesting that action could be taken there.

And so, Jake, really, you know, the president is hinting at what his view of the Donroe Doctrine, as he is now renamed the Monroe Doctrine in recent days, could potentially look like while he's in office. There are also still real, immediate questions that we don't have answers to about Venezuela, including who is running it right now, Jake, because, yes, the vice president -- the acting vice president was sworn in today and when the White House has been asked about her and whether or not they do believe she's cooperating with their vision of what should happen next in Venezuela.

It was the president himself last night, Jake, who defended his comments that she could pay a bigger price than Maduro should she not get in line with what this administration thinks.

[18:05:00]

And he was basically arguing last night to reporters, Jake, saying she will face a situation probably worse than Maduro, he said, because Maduro gave up immediately.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And don't miss Kaitlan on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. Her guest tonight, outgoing Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, and former Trump National Security Adviser John Bolton. That's tonight at 9:00 only on CNN.

Joining us now is Brian Nichols, who served as the assistant secretary of state for the Western Hemisphere under President Biden. Brian, thanks so much for being here.

So, you're an expert on U.S. policy when it comes to Venezuela. What do you think comes next for the Venezuelan people with the vice president now sworn in as the acting president and Trump saying that the U.S. is basically going to be in charge of the country? You heard Stephen Miller earlier saying that that basically means that the U.S. is -- the armada is outside Venezuela, you know, and they can't do anything without the U.S. signing off on it.

BRIAN NICHOLS, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WESTERN HEMISPHERE, BIDEN ADMINISTRATION: Well, today, they published a decree declaring a state of emergency further restricting the rights of the Venezuelan people, mobilizing the military, calling upon people to turn in anyone who cooperated with the United States operation to detain Maduro. So, if we are, in fact, telling Delcy Rodriguez, the new acting president, what to do, we should tell her to respect the fundamental freedoms of the Venezuelan people and we should tell that government to make way for the people who were elected in 2024 to serve as a democratically governing leadership Edmundo Gonzalez and Maria Corina Machado.

TAPPER: So, yes, you heard me ask about Machado and why President Trump so quickly dismissed her, saying that she's weak, and I said her cut -- you know, her cutout Gonzalez won 70 percent of the vote, why do you think she's weak, and he said, every Venezuela expert agrees. Do you agree?

NICHOLS: No. And I think almost every Venezuelan expert would disagree with the way that he phrased that, right? She enjoys enormous support within Venezuela. She's a national hero. She's put her own life at risk for years fighting the Maduro regime, and before that, Chavez, and her worldview is pro-free markets, pro-democracy.

TAPPER: What do you think -- I was trying to get Stephen Miller to say when they could count on -- when they would bring in elections, and he basically said, you know, all in due time, which is not dissimilar from what Secretary Rubio said, like it just happened. How important do you think it is for the U.S. to push for elections? Because that wasn't -- he didn't talk about bringing democracy to Venezuela, they talked about bringing security to Venezuela.

NICHOLS: Our security and our international standing depends on handing this off to a democratic government in Venezuela.

TAPPER: Small D democrat out there, people, just small D democratic. Yes.

NICHOLS: A government that respects fundamental freedoms and the rule of law. Edmundo Gonzalez, who was elected in 2024, which we recognize and the international community recognize, he's a perfect person to serve as a transitional figure while you prepare for elections.

Again, if we are telling Delcy Rodriguez what to do, tell her to let them come back to Venezuela, tell the military of Venezuela, which has proved it is no match for the United States, that they need to respect the freedoms of ordinary citizens, they need to release political prisoners, and they need to move toward a transitional process.

We had a U.N. Security Council meeting today where the United States was roundly criticized for our actions. We've set a horrible precedent for the rest of the world and you're going to see other great powers, and this has already been discussed by many people, so I won't repeat that, those arguments, but if we want to get out from under that problem, we need to put this on a democratic path.

TAPPER: So, Maduro obviously was a horrible guy, or is a horrible guy, repressive ruler. He was a disaster for the people of Venezuela. Did the Biden administration, did Secretary of State Blinken, did you ever talk about removing him with military force?

NICHOLS: You know, it, he was subject to an indictment.

TAPPER: Right.

NICHOLS: And if he had been within our power, we would have taken some action to exercise that indictment. But at least I was never part of a discussion to carry out a covert operation in the manner that carried out over this weekend,

TAPPER: You see a lot of Venezuelan exiles cheering really happy. They hate they hate Maduro. Do you think ultimately it's a good thing that he's not there or we have to see what comes next?

NICHOLS: Well, it's a good thing that he's not there and his crimes against humanity, human rights violations, drug trafficking, money laundering, those are all well-documented.

[18:10:07]

But why would you remove this one guy who was just the face of a regime and then leave the brains and the muscle of that regime all in their jobs? That part seems very inexplicable to me.

TAPPER: Well, you heard me say -- I mean, there's six people were in that indictment and the U.S. grabbed two. Those other four are still there, including the head of Tren de Aragua.

NICHOLS: Yes. Well, I mean, Diosdado Cabella being there, the head of their security forces, senior military guy, crucial to drug trafficking through Venezuela, why would you leave them there?

TAPPER: Well, that was another question I asked, if the U.S. controls is running Venezuela now, are those four coming back -- you know, are they going to be -- are they going to be captured too? I didn't really get an answer on that.

Brian Nichols, thank you so much. It's great to have you and your expertise here.

We're continuing to follow the breaking news out of Capitol Hill. Our teams are positioned right outside of the room of tonight's Venezuela briefing. We're going to bring you live updates as they happen.

Plus, we've got a minute by minute look at exactly how the U.S. operation inside Venezuela unfolded from the moment President Trump gave the order until Maduro was brought aboard a U.S. warship.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: And we're back with the World Lead awaiting updates from the briefing on Capitol Hill on Venezuela. This is a briefing between Trump administration officials and top Democrats and Republicans from the House and Senate. [18:15:04]

They were not notified ahead of time about the plans to capture President Maduro and his wife.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh breaks down now how this operation unfolded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With Nicolas Maduro unbowed, President Trump gave the order at 10:46 P.M. Eastern Time. Later, U.S. forces flew into Venezuela from the sea, 150 aircraft, drones, jets, the helicopters visible over Caracas, where blackouts from U.S. electronic warfare and blasts eased their path.

GEN. DAN CAINE, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: As the night began, the helicopters took off with the extraction force, which included law enforcement officers and began their flight into Venezuela at a hundred feet above the water. As they approached Venezuelan shores, the United States began layering different effects provided by Space Com, Cyber Com and other members of the interagency to create a pathway.

WALSH: Multiple locations were hit in and around the Capitol, including what appeared to be an air defense missile system east of Caracas in Higeurote, and La Carlota Air Base in the capital, and the Port of La Gauira.

Fire was otherwise concentrated on the Fuerte Tiuna military stronghold. And at 1:01 A.M., U.S. forces landed at Maduro's location.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It was a force against a heavily fortified military fortress in the heart of Caracas.

WALSH: Images from outside Fortress Tiuna show troops and people fleeing in the dead of night. It lasted 30 minutes, said General Dan Caine, and tore apart Venezuela's defenses and the regional order, leaving a gap of two hours and many clashes, he said, until they were over the sea.

CAINE: And the force was over the water at 3:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time.

WALSH: The multimillion dollar alleged narco-terrorist on the USS Iwo Jima in $120 jogging suit.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (on camera): Jake, so some holes there potentially in that timeline of what was otherwise a remarkably efficient and it seems well-planned operation. Civilian casualty numbers still being questioned at the moment as well, and indeed to the Trump administration's plan for the day after exactly how they will continue to influence the decisions of Maduro's successes in Venezuela. A well- planned military operation, but still it seems them struggling to assert their strategic goals after Saturday night.

TAPPER: All right, our thanks to Nick Paton Walsh for that report. Venezuela's uncertain future is already impacting other parts of Latin America, including neighboring Colombia.

CNN Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward is in Colombia's capital, Bogota. Clarissa, how are Colombian officials reacting to President Trump's suggestion that he might take military action there?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not well, in a nutshell, Jake. The president of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, wrote a lengthy screed, very sharply worded on X earlier today, in which he said in no uncertain terms that for the U.S. to even consider military action in Colombia would be potentially disastrous. The former guerilla said that even though he had vowed not to touch a weapon again, he would take up arms to defend his homeland.

And he also went on to say, and I quote, if you arrest a president when a good part of my people want -- who a good part of my people want and respect, you will unleash the popular jaguar, so really making it very clear to President Trump that U.S. military intervention is not welcome here in Colombia.

I should say though, Jake, that we have spoken to others in the presidential office. CNN also spoke to the defense minister, Pedro Sanchez, who have tried to kind of tamp down the rhetoric here and say, you know, the U.S. is not the enemy, Colombia is not the enemy of the U.S. We are allies in the U.S.'s counternarcotics strategy, also emphasizing that all of the various layers of law enforcement cooperation that continue as part of that four-decade-long relationship in terms of countering drugs and drug lords is still continuing to run its course as usual. So, clearly, an effort to kind of balance out these ratcheting up tensions.

And I should say though, Jake, it wasn't just Colombia, right? We also heard President Trump give warnings and threats to Greenland, to Iran, to Cuba, to Mexico. But after the sort of stunning and audacious events of the last few days, I think particularly in Latin America, people are really taking a minute before just brushing off Trump's comments as bluster, and they are being forced to take them seriously and at face value, or at least the possibility of that as well.

[18:20:04]

Jake?

TAPPER: There are nearly 3 million Venezuelans who have fled Venezuela and settled in Colombia in recent years. How are they reacting to the news?

WARD: Yes. I mean, this is literally the largest exodus in recent history in Latin America. 8 million Venezuelans left the country. That's nearly a quarter of the population. Nearly 3 million of them have ended up here in Colombia. We have seen the images and the videos of people celebrating in the streets at the news of Maduro's ouster. But in the conversations that we've been having with Venezuelans here, there is still a lot of anxiety and a lot of uncertainty, because while Maduro is gone, the regime is still very much in place. And if you look at the events of today, Jake, it appears to be kind of business as usual, particularly we have seen on the streets of Caracas these Colectivos, as they're known, these armed gangs, stopping cars, searching cars, the National Assembly, which today swore in now interim President Delcy Rodriguez, issued a decree as well saying that anybody who supports the U.S. attacks on Venezuela will essentially be rounded up.

So, people here are not yet preparing to leave, and for many as well, Jake, it's important to remind our viewers that they've been here for over ten years. They have built lives here for themselves. So, while many may dream about going home once again, they're certainly not ready to make that commitment just yet. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Clarissa Ward in Colombia's capital, Bogota, thank you so much.

Crowds took through the streets in South Florida to celebrate the capture of Nicolas Maduro. We're going to get more reaction from Doral, which is home to more Venezuelan immigrants than any other city in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: And we're back with our World Lead, a lot of mixed emotions for Venezuelans living in the United States now that ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro is in an American prison facing drugs and weapon charges. Some view this as justice, others cautiously optimistic for what comes next.

CNN's Randi Kaye is in Doral, Florida, home to more Venezuelan immigrants than any other city in the United States. Randi, how is the Venezuelan community in the U.S. reacting to this sudden regime change?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, half the population here in Doral, Florida, is Venezuelan. In fact, they refer to this community as Doralzuela because of so many Venezuelans living here. But a lot of them have very strong opinions about Maduro's arrest. But the word that I heard most often today, Jake, is justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ REBECCA ALARCON, VENEZUELAN AMERICAN: I am happy to see justice being served. Maduro is guilty of crimes against humanity, of overstaying his welcome after being democratically defeated in 2024. There are hundreds of political prisoners still behind bars in Venezuela, and he's also extremely corrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: So, obviously, much of the Maduro regime remains in power. Maduro's vice president, Delcy Rodriguez, is now the acting president. How do they feel about her?

KAYE: Yes. I talked to the people here about that. They're angry, they're disappointed. They feel like sidelining the opposition leader and leaving Maduro's vice president in place feels like a slap in the face to them. They said that she is just part of that same corrupt regime and that nothing is going to change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADELYS FERRO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, VENEZUELAN AMERICAN CAUCUS: The criminal gang is still there and they are in power. And, sadly, especially Delcy Rodriguez, who is pretty evil, she's very smart. And if she complied with everything that the Trump administration is asking them for, I am terrified to think that there is not going to be any transition to democracy at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And, Jake, those we spoke with told us they really don't want any part of the U.S. running Venezuela. They think that the U.S. and the international community should support and help Venezuelans decide their own future.

What concerns them the most right now is that they don't see any timeline or any timetable for a transition to democracy. Jake?

TAPPER: Randi Kaye in Doral, Florida, thanks so much.

What comes next for Nicolas Maduro and his wife after they're not guilty pleas today? How might their lawyers try to get the cases thrown out? What are their odds of being successful? We're going to talk to two legal experts next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: And we're back with the breaking news. We're told that 200 U.S. personnel were on the ground in Caracas during the operation to remove Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. That's according to Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. Maduro and his wife pleaded not guilty in their first federal court appearance in New York earlier today.

CNN Anchor in Chief Legal Analyst LauraCoates was inside the courtroom. And, Laura, what struck you the most about Maduro's demeanor in court today?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: This was absolutely stunning to watch, the self-proclaimed president of Venezuela and the self-proclaimed first lady of Venezuela inside this Manhattan courtroom for a case of years in the making. Jake, what was so stunning, first of all, he's a very large man. His stature is very, very imposing. He's in the courtroom. He has on sort of tan pants. He's got two shirts on. He's shuffling in. He is unshackled. His wife is just one lawyer apart from him. He has headsets on to have an interpreter discuss and tell what the judge is saying to him.

At his very first opportunity to speak, after writing copious notes for about ten minutes straight, the judge asks him about whether his name, in fact, is Nicolas Maduro Moros. At that instance, he stands up and begins to talk about being a prisoner of war, having been abducted from his home and captured. The judge interrupts him and says, we'll have time to talk about the legality and any motions you might have. All I want to know right now is if you are Nicolas Maduro Moros, to which he says, soy Nicolas Maduro Moros.

At that point, he also describes having the indictment in his hands, the visual of having this indictment, years in the making, in his hand, waving the ability to have everything read in detail and just saying he wants to look at it personally.

He also had trouble sitting at different points. He was really labored in gripping both sides of his chair as he lowered his body. As you'll notice him walking out of that helicopter, his left leg appears to be limping behind him it seemed when he was in the courtroom as well, he was trying to extend his legs out.

His lawyers mentioned along with her lawyer as well injuries or medical issues to discuss. And, in fact, on her face, she had bandages. She seemed to have a little bit of bruising as well. The lawyer described severe bruising on her ribs.

Now, counter to this very assertive voice of Nicolas Maduro was a more soft spoken, more demure, proclaimed first lady who often would look towards her husband. They would exchange glances. And he was literally turning his body to see what she was going to say as he called over her attorney and tapped him on the shoulder.

[18:35:02]

Interestingly enough, there was no mention of bail being set. They didn't even move for bail, meaning they'd be released pending a trial. There was plenty of time to get to that. Two words came to mind, voluminous, complex, both used to describe what is ahead in terms of the motion practice to assert immunity, to assert any international laws they believe haven't been broken. It was really, really stunning to see them in court.

TAPPER: The next court date is set for March 17th. That's more than two months away. What questions do you have about what we're going to see in this case before then?

COATES: Well, what will the protective order be in this case? Because the prosecution, there were five AUSAs, by the way, they made clear that they wanted to release what's called Rule 16 discovery, fancy way of talking about all the documents and evidence I got to hand over to you if I'm going to prove you're actually guilty, including anything that might be exculpatory, they're required to hand over as well. They were willing to do so only after protective order was in place. A discussion was had and voluminous motions about potential head of state immunity and international laws being broken.

And so all that's coming up and why the very reason Nicolas Maduro and his wife did not move to have their speedy trial rights initially asserted. They waived that saying, we'll wait until March 17th to get all that done. And instead they asked to speak to the consulate. Presumably because, Jake, you and I both know the MDC, where they're being held, is notoriously problematic. Don't take my word for it. The inspector general of DOJ talks about it as well. There have been complaints from coast to coast for anyone who has been in that particular facility, very famous people, including people who are layman as well. And they are probably going to look to negotiate their conditions in there, whether they have any leverage whatsoever, anyone's guess.

TAPPER: All right. Laura Coates, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss, the former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig, and former Trump White House Lawyer Jim Schultz.

Elie, Maduro, attempted to elaborate on the circumstance of his arrest in court today. The judge told him there will be a time and a place to go into all of this. What's your reaction to hearing about how he seemed confident in court today?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, so you're not going to resolve or win a motion at your initial appearance, so it's appropriate that the judge said that. Not surprising that Nicolas Maduro went in there defiant, right? And I think this points up that Judge Hellerstein, I appeared in front of him many times, he's going to have a courtroom discipline issue to deal with throughout this case. This is not a demure defendant. This is not someone who respects the authority of the United States. We already saw borderline outbursts today. He was asked for his name and he said, I'm the president of Venezuela, not something our country agrees with.

Judge Hellerstein can control his courtroom. I've tried cases in front of him. He's not going to put up with that stuff. Maduro's going to have his rights. He can make his motions, but he's not going to turn this into a circus.

TAPPER: We should note he is 92 years old.

HONIG: He is.

TAPPER: So, it's a --

HONIG: He's still tough though.

TAPPER: Even -- I'm sure he is tough. But, anyway, Jim, Maduro's defense team has anticipated was quick to raise the issues of how he was abducted. Obviously, Maduro says he was kidnapped. How will the means by which Maduro was taken into custody ultimately factor into the case against him, do you think?

JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they're going to file a motion to dismiss relative to those issues, right, so arguing that his Fourth Amendment rights were violated. There was a 1989 memo authored by Bill Barr during the Bush -- during the first Bush administration that basically opined that it's okay to violate the U.N. authority on this, that it's okay to extract a criminal out of a foreign country, that it's within the president's power, by and through those of the attorney general, to take someone out of their country when they violated laws in the United States. That memo's going to be put to the test in this, and I expect that's going to be the first motion out of the gate.

TAPPER: And, Elie, could the legal discrepancies here be a hindrance at all to the government's case?

HONIG: Well, it's going to be tough. I mean, these are novel motions. Jim's right, there is that memo from DOJ.

TAPPER: It was used against Noriega in Panama, right?

HONIG: Exactly. And it held up in the Noriega case and the Supreme Court has actually ruled, I think people might be surprised, that even if a person is taken out of their country, contrary to international law, that does not mean that a federal United States indictment gets dismissed. There's Supreme Court opinions on that, there's other lower federal court opinions on that. So, to a large extent, we can get away with that type of conduct in our own courts.

So, he's going to make these motions, Maduro, and I think we're going to learn a lot more about how this international law actually plays.

TAPPER: On this Noriega issue, this is the closest, most similar case, although I do think about, I mean, the U.S. went into Pakistan and killed Bin Laden which is not completely irrelevant, although that was not a capture, that was just an assassination, an execution. But Noriega, 1989, drug trafficking charges, he was convicted in a Miami federal court, sentenced to 40 years in prison, and he was not successful in asserting head of state immunity. Do you think that that's going to be a similar fate for Maduro?

SCHULTZ: I do believe it's going to be the similar fate for Maduro because I think the recognition is whether they're head of the state determines what the United States says it is in that case.

[18:40:07]

That's the argument that's going to be made. And I think in that case, there was a distinction in that he had been -- I think he'd been removed from office or had been -- or the authority there had removed him from office, so it was slightly different, but I think it's the distinction without a difference in this case.

TAPPER: So -- and, obviously, as always, he has a right to an attorney, and who was going to represent him and his wife or whether it was going to be separate lawyers, all that, that began on Saturday. Today, Maduro's represented by Barry Pollack, who once represented WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange. What do we know about this process?

HONIG: Yes. So, of course, a person has a right to hire whoever they want to hire. I think he's going to end up with a team. I think Nicolas Maduro's going to end up with more than just one lawyer, more than just Mr. Pollack. We've seen this. We've seen mega defense teams. If you think to Sean Combs, for example, he had eight or nine lawyers. And I think what he's going to be looking for, Maduro, is someone who's an expert on these international law issues we were discussing. You want a couple people who can handle a trial in New York City, if you want local practitioners, you're going to want appellate experts, you're going to want jury selection experts.

TAPPER: And he can use the money that he has even through drug trafficking or whatever the allegations are against Maduro, he can use that money?

HONIG: It's a great question. We, the United States, froze whatever accounts we know about. There is a way -- it's really hard to do in the federal system. There is a way for prosecutors to challenge, to say he's using illicit proceeds to pay for his lawyer, to pay for his experts, but it's rarely done in federal court. But that is an avenue that's available to challenge.

TAPPER: And usually in a high-profile case like this, high-profile defense attorneys will do it pro bono even.

SCHULTZ: Yes, I think you're going to see some of that here. I think you're going to see, you know, some of the associations and support groups and, you know, civil liberties groups step up here and defend Maduro and provide counsel for that. And I think you're going to see folks who want publicity, right, who are defense lawyers to take that publicity, and that's enough for them.

TAPPER: All right. Jim Schultz and Elie Honig, thanks so much, interesting stuff.

Senator Bernie Sanders called President Trump's actions in Venezuela illegal. Is there anything Congress can do about it now, or if President Trump decides to do something similar in, say, Colpmbia? We're going to talk to Senator Sanders live in moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:46:13]

TAPPER: We are back with our world lead. The big question tonight: Who is running Venezuela right now? Who's in charge?

It's a question President Trump was just asked in a phone interview with Kristen Welker, who asked, quote, Rubio, Hegseth, Stephen Miller, are those three people going to be in charge of Venezuela? Are those the top three people? You would say, sir?

President Trump replies, quote, "Yes. Yeah. Among the top people, J.D. will be involved also," a reference to the vice president. Asked, quote, "Who will be the top person if there is one?" President Trump replying, quote, "Me."

Here now is independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Senator Sanders, what's your reaction to President Trump saying he is the top person in charge of Venezuela?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, you know, during his campaign, Jake, as we all recall, Trump said, America first. Well, last I heard, 60 percent of the people in this country, in America, are living paycheck to paycheck. People can't afford housing or groceries. Our health care system is collapsing right now. So maybe instead of trying to run Venezuela, the president might try to do a better job running the United States of America. That's number one.

Number two, very importantly, I think what Trump has done is made the world significantly less safe. If the United States can attack and kidnap the president of Venezuela, who clearly is corrupt, clearly is a bad news guy, but he's the president there. If we can do that, what is stopping any other country on earth, for whatever reason or terrorist organizations, from launching military attacks?

Trump has violated international law, and that is going to make all of us, I think, less safe.

TAPPER: So just to play devil's advocate, Maduro ran a corrupt regime. He denied he repressed his people. He was elected president. But that was a long time ago. And since then, he's canceled elections. There's been fraud.

SANDERS: Yeah.

TAPPER: He's been ignoring elections. Opposition has had to flee, et cetera, et cetera. He was indicted in the U.S. What should the U.S. have done? I mean, sanctions weren't working.

SANDERS: Well, look -- let me give you an example. You're quite right about your description of maduro. This is a corrupt dictator, anti- democratic guy.

But you know what? You know who was also a corrupt dictator and an anti-democratic guy? MBS, the guy who leads Saudi Arabia. He was, according to the American intelligence agencies involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, a "Washington Post" correspondent.

He runs a dictatorship. He owns the whole country. Well, are we going to invade Saudi Arabia, or do we pick and choose the bad guys that we want to punish?

Bottom line is it's a tough world out there. And you -- Maduro is bad news guy. And we got to support democratic forces in Venezuela and all over this country to fight for democracy.

But that is not Trump's goal. Trump has made it clear he wants to take Venezuela's oil. Last I heard, this is what imperialism is all about. And I suspect that people all over the world are saying, wow, we're going back to where we were 100 years ago or 50 years ago with big, powerful countries, were exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources.

Last point I would make, Jake, in countries like China and other countries around the world, they are moving aggressively away from fossil fuel, not only for climate, but because solar and other sustainable energies are cheaper. Why Trump wants to prop up the fossil fuel industry is something he will have to explain to the American people.

[18:50;02]

It's bad for our climate, and it's going to cost us a lot more money than moving to sustainable energies.

TAPPER: So earlier in the show, we had on White House adviser Stephen Miller, and he characterized the U.S. involvement in Venezuela as a, quote, ongoing military operation. And then when I asked, well, who's running Venezuela? Who's in charge? He said this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: By definition, we are in charge because we have the United States military stationed outside the country. We set the terms and conditions. We have a complete embargo on all of their oil and their ability to do commerce.

So, for them to do commerce, they need our permission. For them to be able to run an economy, they need our permission.

So, the United States is in charge. The United States is running the country during this transition period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What's your response, sir?

SANDERS: Well, that's the definition -- Mr. Miller gave a very good definition of imperialism, and that's not new. I mean, England did it. France did it. Countries all over the world historically have done it. The United States has done it.

We are powerful. We have the strongest military on earth, and we can run any country we want. Is that really the kind of America that our people want? I don't think so. I think they would rather us pay attention to improving our broken health care system, making sure that workers have decent wages, dealing with the housing crisis, which is so significant. Virtually every state in this country.

But Mr. Miller did a very good job in describing what imperialism is all about.

TAPPER: Today, Senate Majority Leader John Thune, Republican of South Dakota, said he doesn't believe the White House needed congressional authorization for the operation. You have called on congress to pass a war powers resolution to end this military operation that you call illegal. Would that war powers resolution have the support of any of your

Republican colleagues, who obviously control the majority of the Senate?

SANDERS: Well, I think it will, but you've got to ask them how many. Look, we have in so many ways a president who ignores the Constitution and the rule of law. The Constitution is quite clear. It is Congress that determines issues of war and peace.

This was not a national emergency. This was not nine over 9/11. This was not, you know, Pearl Harbor. This was a premeditated attack.

Congress should have been informed. And I strongly support a war powers resolution.

TAPPER: Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, thank you, sir. Appreciate it as always.

SANDERS: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up next, new reporting about a meeting planned for oil executives this week, just days after Maduro's removal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:56:34]

TAPPER: And we're back with our world lead. We're watching live pictures right now from Capitol Hill, where top Trump administration officials are briefing top lawmakers about the latest on the situation in Venezuela.

White House deputy chief of staff for policy, Stephen Miller, telling us in the last hour that the U.S. is in charge in Venezuela. We're going to keep an eye out for any reaction from lawmakers after this briefing.

Just in, Energy Secretary Chris Wright will meet with oil executives this week in Miami to discuss drilling for oil in Venezuela following the U.S. operation this past weekend.

CNN previously reported that in the weeks leading up to the operation to capture Maduro, the White House engaged with U.S. oil companies to gauge their interest in returning to Venezuela. Sources say that many of the oil companies have been privately rather wary of committing to any such efforts.

CNN's Brian Todd takes a closer look now at Venezuela's wealth of oil.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Following the dramatic capture of Nicolas Maduro, President Trump put it bluntly America was taking over the running of an underperforming oil power.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's been horribly run. The oil is just flowing at a very low level.

TODD (voice-over): Why are Venezuela's oil reserves so important to the U.S.? Analysts say it's not just that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, sitting on over 300 billion barrels of crude, but it now has the potential to eventually reclaim its status as one of the world's top oil producers, with a type of oil that fits Americas needs and capabilities to a T.

CLAYTON SEIGLE, SENIOR FELOW, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNTIONAL STUDIES: Venezuela's particular kind of crude oil, which we call extra heavy, is a perfect match for the sophisticated oil refineries that the U.S. energy companies have invested in and built in the Gulf Coast.

TODD (voice-over): In the hours after Maduro's capture, President Trump made this claim about Venezuela's oil trading history with America.

TRUMP: It was the greatest theft in the history of America. Nobody has ever stolen our property like they have. They took our oil away from us. They took the infrastructure away.

TODD (voice-over): Experts say it's not true that Venezuela stole America's oil. The oil itself, they say, was always Venezuela's.

But one analyst says part of Trump's claim is correct that Venezuela did expropriate some of the assets and infrastructure of American oil companies in Venezuela.

SEIGLE: There were two major rounds of expropriations. One of them was in the '70s, and another one was in the early to mid-2000s under Chavez, the former strongman.

TODD (voice-over): It was under Hugo Chavez, analysts say, that Venezuela's status as an oil power began to spiral.

BOB MCNALLY, PRESIDENT, RAPIDAN ENERGY GROUP: A communist dictator came in, nationalized the resources, kicked out most of the U.S. companies, and then invited the Russians and the Chinese to come in. And then he -- he didn't organize and plan and run the wells. Well, so he ran the system into the ground.

TODD (voice-over): Then Maduro ran it further into the ground, to the point where now Venezuela produces less than 1 percent of the world's crude oil.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): How long will it take to revitalize that decaying operation, as President Trump has promised to do? Well, despite Trump's promise that U.S. oil companies are ready to race back into Venezuela, CNN has learned that they've been hesitant to commit to that. Experts say those companies are going to want to see some real political stability there first, and that could take years, if not decades -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Brian Todd, thank you so much.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram and on TikTok @JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X and Instagram @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of the lead, you can watch the show on the CNN app.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. Take it away, Erin.