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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Threatens Insurrection Act to Deploy Troops to Minnesota; Machado Says She Presented Trump Her Nobel Peace Prize Medal; Agriculture Secretary Ridiculed Over Budget-Friendly Meal. White House Blames Dems For "Encouraging" Attacks On ICE Agents. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired January 15, 2026 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.
This hour, protests are flaring up again in Minneapolis today as President Trump threatens to invoke the Insurrection Act and deploy U.S. troops to the streets of Minnesota. We're going to go live on the scene of the protest in moments, and I'm going to be joined by Homeland Security Officials who worked under Trump and Biden to get their insights.
Also, Venezuela's opposition leader Maria Corina Machado says she gave President Trump her Nobel Peace Prize medal when she visited the White House today.
[18:00:06]
Just last week, CNN's Kaitlan Collins asked Trump if he would change his mind about her leading Venezuela if she made such a gesture. So, what now?
Plus, President Trump asked about the midterm elections in a new interview already is predicting Republicans will struggle later this year. But then he went on to say, quote, we shouldn't even have an election in November. Hear the White House's explanation of those remarks this afternoon.
And blinding snow causing multiple serious accidents across the Midwest, including a 30-car pileup in Indiana, and now multiple storm systems are threatening more snow potentially for millions of Americans. An upcoming forecast is ahead.
The Lead tonight, President Trump threatening to use the Insurrection Act, an act, we should note, he did not invoke during an actual insurrection, January 6th, 2021. But this one he is threatening as anti-ICE protests flare in Minneapolis. Protests against ICE began last week, especially after an ICE officer shot and killed Renee Good and those protests reignited last night after a federal agent in Minneapolis shot an injured a Venezuelan national during an attempted arrest. The Trump administration says the shooting was in response to the suspect assaulting the agent.
Today, the White House press secretary defended President Trump's threats to invoke the Insurrection Act, which would allow him to deploy the U.S. military to Minneapolis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Insurrection Act is a tool at the president's disposal. As you know, it has been used sparingly, but it has been used by previous presidents.
And it's truly shameful that now for more than a year, you've had elected Democrat governors and mayors who have basically held their state and local law enforcement hostage and told them, you cannot cooperate with federal law enforcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is on the ground for us in Minneapolis. Shimon?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, certainly, anything that would escalate the situation here by bringing in military or extra law enforcement would only enrage folks here. And I've been talking to people here in the crowd, Jake. We're outside the federal building where most of the protesters have been gathering the last several days, because this is the federal building where federal officials and law enforcement, this is where they drive into. And so like we've seen in Chicago and in Portland, a lot of protesters would gather outside these buildings because they can come face to face with federal law enforcement.
And like you'll see here, Jake, there's this white SUV parked. That's Federal Protective Services. Sometimes they'll drive out and that's when the crowd will start screaming at them, telling them to go back inside. But since I've been here for the past 45 minutes or so, we've not seen any escalation from law enforcement or really just anyone else here. It's just been a lot of yelling.
I will note a couple of things, Jake, about Minneapolis today. I've been in touch with some of the ICE watchers and the civilians and the community members, who are these rapid response folks, and it's been relatively quiet here today. They've not seen a whole lot of activity. Last night was certainly unusual in that the federal law enforcement was out there at night doing these operations, which is unusual. And, of course, we saw what we saw and there was this flare up.
But for today, everything has been centered around here, and it seems as though for now things are remaining calm. And, hopefully, I think for people who live here, they hope there isn't any kind of escalation from the federal government and certainly the local police. Jake?
TAPPER: All right. Shimon Prokupecz, thanks so much.
In our National Lead, a nation divided over immigration enforcement. Speaking to reporters outside the White House this morning, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, defended ICE agents who have been asking people in Minneapolis to prove their U.S. citizens by asking for their paperwork. Let's listen to what she exactly had to say about this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Why are we seeing Americans being asked on the street to provide proof of citizenship in Minnesota? Is that targeted enforcement? And are you advising Americans to carry proof of citizenship?
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: In every situation, we're doing targeted enforcement. If we are on a target and doing an operation, there may be individuals surrounding that criminal that we may be asking who they are and why they're there, and having them validate their identity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Joining us to discuss, Ken Cuccinelli, who was the acting deputy secretary for the Department of Homeland Security in President Trump's first administration, also with us, John Sandweg, who was the acting director of ICE under President Obama.
Ken, let me start with you, is this standard protocol, as Secretary Noem suggesting that anyone on the streets of Minneapolis or anywhere in the U.S. should be carrying proof of citizenship?
[18:05:00]
KEN CUCCINELLI, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR RENEWING AMERICA: Well, she didn't say that. She said that when they have -- when they're doing targeted enforcement, which is all they do, when there are others in the near vicinity, they're trying to screen them out. So, she described a process of screening out, not wandering the streets, asking people for documentation, and that is appropriate. You want to focus on your targets and you want to exclude anyone not associated with them,
TAPPER: But, I mean, just with respect, I mean, that's a distinction without a difference. I'm not talking about, even assuming that they only do this in targeted enforcements, if there are people in the area, they need to be carrying -- I mean, if they're not in this country illegally, they still need to be carrying proof of citizenship?
CUCCINELLI: So, Jake, you're over broadening the application of this. I mean, it isn't anybody on the sidewalk when you're pursuing a particular person with a removal order. It's people who are traveling in association. Perhaps you pull the vehicle over and that person is driving and there's two other people in the vehicle.
Well, you know, you do have a crime being committed. This is a person in the country illegally. That's a continuing offense. And so you just -- you secure the location. I mean, this is not out of the ordinary for law enforcement of all types.
TAPPER: John, what's your take?
JOHN SANDWEG, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: You know, Jake, you could hear the secretary say, we're doing targeted operations, but I'm seeing images of Border Patrol agents hitting Target stores, right. Some of these tactics we're seeing don't necessarily look targeted to me.
Even if they are targeted, however, are two things I think are clear. One is we've changed the targeting rules. We're going after everybody. I mean, the data from the ICE detentions tell us that over 70 percent of these people currently in detention have no criminal history. But, you know, again, in terms of I.D.ing people who are right there, the so-called collaterals, Jake, I don't disagree that that's standard practice. It's just the question that itself of whether they're really doing targeted operations. I'm not entirely sure that that's what we're seeing.
TAPPER: So, a recent Quinnipiac University poll found that a narrow majority of voters, 52 percent, believe that last week's fatal shooting of Renee Nicole Good involving an ICE officer in Minneapolis was not justified. John, how does DHS respond to Americans seemingly having declining trust in ICE and DHS?
SANDWEG: Stop rushing into judgment. Stop telling us every time that this is only about the worst of the worst when it's not. And to be fair, Jake, I think there are some administration officials who say, we are out there to get illegal immigrants off the street. But let's be honest, that's what we're trying to do here, a mass deportation, not against the worst of the worst, but against the general undocumented population. And then three is, you know, when there's an incident like this, let the investigation play out, right? Don't just make a rush to judgment.
You do those things and then, Jake, I'd just throw in quickly, deescalate a little bit. Stop being so -- stop doing operational tactics that are, it seemed to me, designed less about law enforcement and more about political messaging. And I think we'll start the healing process, so to speak, rebuilding that ICE reputation.
TAPPER: Ken, your response.
CUCCINELLI: Yes, John makes a lot of points that are worth addressing. One is, first of all, turning the rhetoric down. That's true for everybody and letting investigations play out.
Now, having said that, you know, John was directly responsible for these officers. I was, you know, the next layer up, you care about the people who work for you. You want to protect them. You know they're not perfect. And when you see them really ganged up on, as we're seeing in Minneapolis here, you do end up with some strategic decision-making. Do you back off or do you not cede the ground? And this administration is not ceding the ground. And I hear John referencing that to, you know, how you respond.
And, candidly, we may differ on this, John and I, but I think that you can't let state officials who are trying to harbor illegal aliens back you off doing your job. And that means accomplishing the mission of removing people who are here illegally, and many, most, over 95 percent haven't committed some other crime. So, I believe this administration has very effectively, frankly, they've overdone it, prioritized people who've committed other crimes among the deportations they're executing. The vast number, tens of millions of people here illegally, haven't committed additional aggravated crimes. Maybe some but that's a small percentage. If you're going to actually keep the president's campaign promises of large- scale deportation, you prioritize criminals, which they have done, but that doesn't mean you don't remove everyone else who's here illegally, which they're beginning to proceed toward.
TAPPER: John?
SANDWEG: Jake, there's a way of doing this. There's a way of enforcing the law. This notion that you have to either be for open borders or for what we're seeing in the streets of Minneapolis, again, it's just a false choice. You can go after those individuals who have clear criminal records, not just immigration-related violations, have make hundreds of thousands of arrests, fulfill the president's promises but truly focus on the worst of the worst and not cause the civil unrest that we're seeing playing out right now in Minneapolis.
TAPPER: Ken, President Trump is threatening to invoke the Insurrection Act. I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to. Do you think that he's seriously considering it, or do you think this is more of a warning shot across the bow to local officials or maybe even kind of messaging, trying to get the American people, the media and others to focus more on the tactics of some of the protesters, some of whom -- not most of whom, but some of whom are bad apples, some of whom are instigators? What's your take on it all?
CUCCINELLI: So, first of all, the Insurrection Act is rather unfortunately named. It covers four different circumstances, only one of which is insurrection. That would not be the use the president is talking about putting the Insurrection Act to. The use he is talking about putting it to is when, in his judgment, federal resources, in this case, ICE agents, officers, and so forth are inadequate to achieve their mission and that implicitly means as safely as it can reasonably be done without further resource assistance. And the Insurrection Act allows the president to move the military into that position alongside officers in that situation.
And so I do think, to your question, Jake, he's very seriously considering this because, frankly, it's worked where they've used approaches like this in other parts of the country.
TAPPER: You have an issue with it, its title, you should probably take that up with your fellow Virginian, Thomas Jefferson, Ken. John, last word.
CUCCINELLI: That is when it got the name, right? That is when it got the name.
TAPPER: Yes.
SANDWEG: Jake, like, I'll tell you this before we rush under the Insurrection Act, which is only going to escalate tensions, let's try to find some common ground. I promise you, during my time at ICE, and Ken knows this during his time at ICE, sometimes the politicians are making a lot of noise. But when you let the law enforcement guys talk to each other, they'll help each other out, state and locals and the feds.
Let's try to find that a common ground. Let's swap out some of those DHS personnel, those Border Patrol agents in tactical gear for state and local police when doing the federal protective mission. Let's try to go back and find some places where we can go get some people that I guarantee you, the Minneapolis chief of police wants to get criminals who have violent criminal histories off the streets as well.
Let's get back to the tactics that work, that are less disruptive and I think we can, you know, make the country safer together.
TAPPER: Ken Cuccinelli and John Sandweg, thank you so much. Thanks for the lively and respectful discussion on a controversial issue. I really appreciate it.
CUCCINELLI: Good to be with you.
TAPPER: Venezuela's opposition leader said she gifted President Trump, her Nobel Peace Prize medal during a visit to the White House earlier today. CNN's Kaitlan Collins has new details, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:15:00]
TAPPER: In our World Lead, the big question, does President Trump now technically possess a Nobel Peace Prize? He has not been awarded one, but does he have one? Because earlier today, President Trump met with Nobel Peace Prize winner and Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado. Trump had declined to endorse her following the U.S. capture of leader Nicolas Maduro as the next leader of Venezuela. And after Machado met with Trump, she told reporters this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: I presented the president of the United States, the medal of the Nobel Peace Prize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, let's go to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House. Kaitlan, so does President Trump now possess this peace prize? What else do we know about this meeting?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jake, it's interesting that we actually have not heard that much from the White House on this meeting or, you know, that was news to us when Machado came out and said that she had presented her prize to the president. It wasn't shocking. It was something we had expected because she had been talking about it and, obviously, the president has made his desire to win the Nobel Peace Prize quite clear time and time again, and has repeatedly said that he believes he should have won it in place of Machado, who called him right after she won it. And so, Jake, we did see her arriving here at the White House today.
And we were looking at pictures, because, obviously, she is carrying a bag. We've not heard yet confirmation from the White House that the president did indeed receive this. But when she was leaving, she was also carrying this bag. And if you notice, Jake, it's a bag that has the president's signature on it. He often takes his guest on a tour of the White House gift shop that he has installed right outside the Oval Office whenever they visit. So, it's not clear what she got in exchange as she was here at the White House today.
But even if she did give the president the physical Nobel Peace Prize that she won, Jake, I should note the committee did put out a statement today weighing in on this matter, essentially saying that it is not transferrable and that there's one truth remains that once it's announced, it cannot be revoked, shared, or transferred to others, that the decision is final and that it stands for all time.
So, obviously, this is largely symbolic here, Jake, but really what it comes down to is why she would do this, and that is because she wants to run Venezuela. She obviously was the most popular opposition figure in the last elections that they had when Maduro was still there and was rigging the elections. And so that's why I asked the president last Friday when we were in the room with him and he was meeting with oil executives about Venezuela, if she gave him the prize, whether it would change his mind about her running that country. And this is what the president told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You're meeting with Machado next week. If she gives you her Nobel Peace Prize, will that change your view about her running that country?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I have to speak to her? I mean, I'm going to have to speak to her. She might be involved in some aspect of it.
I can't think of anybody in history that should get the Nobel Prize more than me, and I don't want to be bragging, but nobody else settled wars. Obama got the Nobel Prize. He had no idea why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, Jake, it remains to be seen what comes next after this, after she gave him that prize today. The president still has not weigh in himself on truth, social or any other statement. So, we'll wait to see and hear from the president on his view of how that went, and, obviously, which is the much larger question here, which is what is next for Venezuela and how that is going to plan out in terms of elections and who is leading that country.
[18:20:11]
TAPPER: He can't think of anyone who deserves a Nobel Peace Prize more than him. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much. And don't miss Kaitlan on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. Her guest tonight includes Maryland Governor Wes Moore. That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern, only on CNN and the CNN app.
Critics are jumping on comments made by the secretary of Agriculture about what she thinks Americans could eat for dinner for just $3. We're going to talk to a former Trump economic adviser about this next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Money Lead, a $3 dinner and a storm of backlash. U.S. Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins is under fire after suggesting that Americans can need a healthy meal for only $3. This is while she was promoting the Trump administration's new Make America Healthy Again food guidelines, which emphasized meat and deemphasized processed foods, which tend to be cheaper.
[18:25:09]
Take a listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE ROLLINS, AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: We've run over a thousand simulations. It can cost around $3 a meal for a piece of chicken, a piece of broccoli, you know, corn tortilla and one other thing. And so there is a way to do this that actually will save the average American consumer money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: A lot of critics out there didn't buy it and are questioning whether that plate that she's proposing is even possible at today's grocery prices. The administration says the math works if Americans cook at home with real food.
Let's bring in our guest, former Trump Economic Adviser Steve Moore. Steve, good to see you. Although we should note egg prices have fallen since President Trump took office, but still, overall ground beef has risen 15.5 percent, frozen fish, 8.6 percent, according to the latest consumer price index. So, how can claims of low cost meals be reconciled with these rising grocery prices for proteins and such?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMIC ADVISER: Well, thanks for having me, Jake. I think there's really two issues here. One is the issue of the agriculture secretary, Brooke Rollins, who, by the way, for full disclosure, is a good friend of mine. Should they be promoting healthier diets? And I say absolutely yes to that. I think this is an excellent initiative. We could cut our healthcare costs dramatically with just better diets for people.
And, by the way, I'm the first in line that I don't have a very healthy diet. I eat way too much sugar and processed food, and that's just not good for you. And so I really applaud Brooke for this initiative and I hope people pay attention to how you can improve your health by eating healthier food.
Now, the question then is, can you do it for $3? It depends on what you're putting in, you know, that tortilla. So, for example, you mentioned the fact that egg prices have fallen. That's true. I'll tell you something else that's fallen in prices is pork. Pork chops and pork products have fallen in price.
Now, you're right, beef has risen in price and other foods and groceries have risen. So, I think you got to be a very cost-conscious consumer to get that tortilla down to $3.
TAPPER: So, yes, I mean, look, healthier eating is a great cause. It was a great cause when Michelle Obama did it. It's a great cause with RFK Jr. doing it. But the issue is like, it is true, healthier food, especially in terms of non-processed and in terms of protein, it costs more, generally speaking, and groceries are up right now, 2.4 percent in terms of costs year over year. Overall food prices are up 3.1 percent, according to the CPI. So, then the question becomes, well, what measures is the Trump administration taking to address these rising food prices at the same time that they are, and, again, applause, applause, pushing Americans to have a healthier diet?
MOORE: Well, first of all, over the last three months, the good news is for consumers that their incomes are rising faster than inflation finally, and it's been a long time since that's happened. So, that means people have over, at least in the last few months, more affordability, not less, especially when it comes to things, like paying your grocery bills. But -- and also it would depend. You know, I don't know, Jake, how big a serving that they're talking about. I mean, one of the problems with people's nutrition is we all, and, again, I'm guilty of this, as anyone, we overeat, we eat too much and we consume too much calories.
So, I'd like to see kind of how much broccoli she's talking about, how much chicken, how big are the servings.
TAPPER: I don't want to overstate the controversy here. This isn't let them eat cake. This isn't ketchup is a vegetable. But do you think there was anything that she should have phrased differently?
MOORE: Well, I'd like to see that -- look, I'm not going to criticize what Brooke said because she's an honest person. I think they've probably done the data and they found a way you could do this for $3. So, I bet if you had her on, I bet she could show you exactly how we can, you know, cut our food budgets and still have a very healthy diet. And I'm very much in favor of that.
But, look, I'm just a big fan on where this economy is right now. I think people have more affordability now as wages rise and so people can afford better meals and healthier meals.
TAPPER: Steve Moore, thanks so much, I appreciate it.
As protesters gather once again tonight in Minneapolis, one city leader there says that elected officials, including Democratic Governor Tim Walz, need to be doing more to fight back against the Trump administration's ICE operations in their city. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, now you might have seen some claims out there, especially on social media, that the Trump administration is using phrases and imagery and memes that evoke dark days and appeal to white supremacists. This a reference to some of the memes that the Trump administration posts on social media or on signs that chooses to publicly display.
We want to take a serious look at this right now, what's true, what isn't, because it's certainly not all true. For example, we saw recently people talking about the words on Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem's lectern from last week that says, quote, one of ours, all of yours. Some on social media claimed that that phrase is a Nazi slogan from the past, from history, but that's not true. We found no historical evidence to support that claim. And the Department of Homeland Security tells CNN that was specifically a reference to a Border Patrol agent who had been shot.
But let's turn to another claim. The Labor Department posted this on X Saturday. It's a video of a statue of George Washington over historical images. And the caption says, one homeland, one people, one heritage. Remember who you are, American. Now, there are a lot of critics out there who say that how that was phrased is disturbingly similar to the Nazi slogan, ein Volk, ein, Reich, ein Fuhrer, which means one people, one realm, one leader, and that was seen in German on this Nazi propaganda war poster from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. Of course, it's not the same phrase, but there are critics out there, including some conservatives who suggest that there are echoes that are disturbing. The Labor Department did not respond to repeated requests for comment on this.
In a post from the Homeland Security Department, we saw a stealth bomber flying over a man on horseback gives off some Marlboro Man vibes. What you can't see here is the song the department attached to this post. It's called, We'll Have Our Home Again, which is also the text placed over that image, We'll Have Our Home Again. And that phrase, We'll Have Our Home Again, and the song has been cited by PBS and The Intercept in the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Global Project against Hate and Extremism as a song that has a lot of appeal to white nationalist groups.
Now, we of course, cannot say why that song or that phrase was chosen. The song lyrics, feature lines that evoke sentiments often expressed by conservatives about immigration, such as, quote, in our own towns, we're foreigners now, unquote. And perhaps it was chosen simply for that reason, or maybe it's just a coincidence. The Homeland Security Department tells us, quote, We'll Have Our Home Again, was a reference to the, quote, 20-plus million illegal aliens invading the country, unquote. What they make of this criticism and the concerns even from their fellow conservatives about these images and these words? The response was, quote, this is why people don't take the media seriously, unquote. On Wednesday, the White House posted this image on X showing two Greenlandic dog sled teams facing a crossroads captioned, which way, Greenland man, which appears to be a variation of which way, American man, as seen in this Homeland Security Department tweet from last year.
Now, first glance. The picture and that phrase seem innocuous enough. This is a long established meme, which way, blank man. But according to experts, the phrase originated with a book from 1978 called Which Way, Western Man, written by an avowed white supremacist, William Gayley Simpson, who, among other disturbing beliefs, argued that Hitler was right.
Now, we're sure that lots of folks familiar with online meme culture are completely unaware of the hateful origins of that meme. And that could, of course, be true for the Trump administration as well. It's entirely possible that President Trump's rather meme happy group is using some of these images with no idea that they might have repugnant origins or echoes.
But these are just a few examples of many. And after a certain number of them, one wonders if this is all accidental, if it's all a coincidence, why isn't there an effort to be a little bit more sensitive about this?
Let's discuss this all with Robert Pape. He's a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, and we have with us CNN Political Comment Commentator and Editor-in-Chief of The Dispatch Jonah Goldberg, who coincidentally wrote a column about this in his G- File yesterday.
Professor Pape, let me start with you. You've done a lot of work on this. What do you think is behind these memes? How much plausible deniability do you give the Trump administration?
ROBERT PAPE, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Well, Jake, I have studied extremist propaganda for decades. I spent years working with the FBI on ISIS, and I have never seen anything like this coming from an official government organization. You are right, that this has white supremacy, white western chauvinism. I think, though, that what an expert would tell you is what they're really doing is borrowing from the Proud Boys. So, I've also studied lots and lots of Proud Boy propaganda, and they too are echoing all of these memes, Jake.
And so it's you -- we can tie it back all the way to Nazi Germany, but I think more directly what's happening is they are marrying their website with ideas coming right from the Proud Boys, which are very, very, very similar.
There's a second element here, Jake, which is even more disturbing. You see, these aren't just simply passive, nice images that are sort of we don't like. They're emotionally charged videos on the DHS website that show ICE agents, often white ICE agents, in what you would call heroic battles against immigrants and liberals. Now, the immigrants and liberals don't see it as heroic, but this is where I think they're taking a page, whether they know it or not, from ISIS. You see, what made ISIS far more deadly and powerful than Al- Qaeda was these emotionally-charged images of violence against Christians and Jews. And what you are seeing here on the DHS website are over and over videos of essentially violence done viewed as heroic violence against immigrants and liberal protesters.
[18:40:08]
And this is why you're getting a violent force, because this is who they're recruiting.
TAPPER: So, Jonah, we should note, like none of this is happening in a vacuum. I mean, we all remember President Trump's, you know, refusal to condemn David Duke and all the rest back in 2016, but also just recently there was this ICE attorney who was reportedly running a white supremacist X account. DHS told me he was suspended. And now the Texas Observer reports he's been seen back at work. DHS tells me his employment status is unclear. What does this all mean to you, because you just wrote a column about this?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, it's an interesting perspective from the professor. I see this more as, you know, we've all heard the phrase people can be -- it's not so much they're pro-Trump, they're anti-Trump, right? They just want to pick fights with people who criticize Trump. I think what is pretty clear from a lot of the social media stuff, the Department of Labor images, you know, they basically scrubbed anybody who isn't sort of a eugenically idyllic 20-something male, right?
TAPPER: White male.
GOLDBERG: Yes. It looks like eugenics posters from 1920s America or Germany or something. And the phrasing is very creepy in some of these things.
And I think part of what they're trying to do is it's a dog whistle and a troll at the same time. The people who love this stuff say, okay, these guys are on our page, and the people who are creeped out by it, they say, oh my gosh, this is Nazi, this is Nazi that, and they use that as a way to see, say, these guys are anti-white, these guys aren't for traditional America. These are Norman Rockwell pictures. This -- you know, it's a gestalt that they are trying to merge with patriotism in a way that triggers a lot of people, and that serves their purposes.
The other point I would say is like, you know, we know that J.D. Vance, the vice president, came out and defended a whole bunch of, you know, what he called kids, you know?
TAPPER: Even they were up to 40 years old.
GOLDBERG: Yes. These are serious middle management people in conservatism in the Republican Party, and said it's no big deal that they're telling Holocaust jokes and that one of them says, I love Hitler, and another one says, rape is epic in these private chats. But at the same time, Vance and people like him are saying, we have -- we need to have a big tent for people like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes and people who like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes and people who bait Jews all the time. But we really got to keep -- get the neo- cons out of the party, right? It is a big tent. In a way that is basically anti-anti-Nazi. Like you can espouse fondness for these ideas, sympathy for these ideas, and be part of the coalition, but if you're offended by it, it's a signal, get out, we don't need you anymore.
TAPPER: Very interesting.
Jonah Goldberg, Robert Pape, I could talk for an hour about this, thanks so much for joining us.
Coming up next here, the White House explanation for new comments from President Trump when he suggested that the United States should not have midterm elections in November, they're not needed. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:46:45]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Back in our politics lead today, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt appeared to blame Democrats entirely for the growing tensions in Minneapolis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look at this vehicle. Look at what it says. It says F ICE. You have these individuals who are putting their middle finger, proudly so at the camera. Another ICE individual -- a vehicle that was vandalized last night by these left wing agitators. People don't do this without encouragement from people in power who make them feel like it's okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Here to discuss is the panel. But before we get started, I do want to note, in a conversation in our panel in the last hour, one of our Democratic panelists said that Senator Mitch McConnell had had a stroke, and McConnell's office reached out and said, that's not true. We regret the error.
But moving on, Shermichael, have you heard any Democrats encourage violence explicitly?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, I've heard people say, put your bodies on the line. I've heard people say, you got to do whatever you think is necessary to protect your friends and neighbors. Now, I'm not saying this is representative of every single person who may disagree with the policies coming from my side, but there are certainly some agitators out there who are going to take that message to the extreme.
TAPPER: But you're talking -- SINGLETON: You have seen some of that.
TAPPER: You're talking about Democratic politicians saying --
SINGLETON: Correct. Yes.
TAPPER: OK.
SINGLETON: Yeah. In Minneapolis.
TAPPER: Yeah. And, Paul, what do you think?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, Minneapolis was peaceful. Crime was way down. Things were going great in Minneapolis until Donald Trump instigated this violence. He is looking for an excuse to invoke the Insurrection Act. We know from his first term he wanted to from people who've written books about his first.
TAPPER: Not during the insurrection, though. After the after the George Floyd thing.
BEGALA: Right after George Floyd. Right. There was -- there was -- I'm old enough to remember there actually was January 6th, 2021, an insurrection. Trump was president. He did nothing to protect those cops --
TAPPER: But after the George Floyd thing.
BEGALA: A hundred forty cops injured, several lost their lives. He did nothing.
But now -- but now, he seems hell bent on instigating this violence. I have to say, irony has died a long time ago. But good night, nurse. When you work for Donald Trump. And who -- two days ago, shot the bird at one of his citizens and mouthed really foul epithet. And now, Ms. Leavitt is getting the vapors because American citizens are criticizing their government.
That's the way it's supposed to be, by the way. I don't approve that language in public, but good night. If you can't say I don't like my government, you know -- and you're not, that's America. You go to Russia or something.
SINGLETON: It is America. I agree 100 percent. But what people should not do, they shouldn't be destructive. They shouldn't impede potential --
BEGALA: They shouldn't shoot a kindergarten mom in the face.
SINGLETON: And I think that's a part of the problem here.
And I agree with you that leaders should be held to a higher standard, regardless of what side you're on. I think there's criticism that should be called out when warranted. I agree with all of those things, Paul, but we have a process in this country when people disagree with their politicians, you vote them out. You do what Minneapolis attempted to do by filing a federal lawsuit. Now, they didn't win that.
But we have a systematic approach to challenging leaders who we believe are taking positions that may be opposed to what we think is the best way. You go that route. And we're seeing a lot of people who aren't necessarily doing and blaming.
BEGALA: You blame the American people --
SINGLETON: On my side and on your side, Paul.
BEGALA: There's nothing more American than protesting your government peacefully.
SINGLETON: Peacefully.
[18:50:00]
There were go.
BEGALA: Amen. Amen.
SINGLETON: Peaceful protest.
BEGALA: What Mr. Trump is doing, he's sending in armed men. You know guns. They're carrying AR-556. Okay? These are automatic weapons.
SINGLETON: Caliber, caliber.
BEGALA: Semi-automatic. Yes, but they're carrying assault weapons. They're masked. They're in unmarked cars. They're dragging people, some citizens, some not out of there.
And they shot that kindergarten mom in the face whose last words were, I'm not mad at you. An ICE officer, we've seen the tape, shot that woman in the face and then called her an effing B-word.
SINGLETON: And you know what --
BEGALA: So, this is not an even-steven thing. People are going to get upset. I'm upset.
SINGLETON: You know what the approach is moving forward? The president was elected on two issues -- the economy and immigration.
BEGALA: Right.
SINGLETON: Maybe some folks may not like the directive coming from the executive in terms of how we're going about it. But you know what? I think the strategic thing to do here is pair ICE with state and local law enforcement. They know where people are who are in the country illegally. They have far more experience dealing with the general community, including people who may be a little crazy. They know how to handle those folks, allow local law enforcement state to deal with that. While ICE moves forward with the directives coming from the president. That way you avoid these types of situations going forward, but the efficacy of it moves in a way that people would applaud.
TAPPER: So, Paul, just to just to follow up on the point Shermichael made, Minneapolis is a sanctuary city. Minnesota's not a sanctuary state, but Minneapolis is a sanctuary city. They do not cooperate with federal immigration enforcement as a matter of policy, so that won't happen. I'm sure we all three reasonable folks here at the table, would agree that there should be a partnership.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
TAPPER: But by proclamation, Minneapolis will not do that.
BEGALA: Right. I -- years ago, when Democratic city started saying this, I criticized that probably on your show. And I heard from some of these mayors, they make a good point. I still think that we should have one federal immigration law, and cities should be obligated to help enforce it. I do. So I haven't changed my position on that.
But the mayors make a good point, which is the heart of policing in a city or anywhere, is community policing. And if you -- if you -- they believe -- if you seem to be on the side of ICE, you will lose the support of your community.
The truth is, the community will tell you who the bad guys are. The immigrants will tell you. They say, hey, Sam over there beats his wife. Why don't you haul him and send him back to Venezuela, right?
So I do think we need to lower the temperature. Mr. Trump seems uninterested in doing that. Governor Walz, God bless him, is calling on people to calm down. The mayor of Minneapolis, heartbroken as he is, is trying to calm things down.
Donald Trump and his folks are ratcheting up. They seem to want more tension and more violence. I don't know why.
SINGLETON: And I don't want that as a conservative. I do want people to be calm. I want cooler heads to prevail. But I do want places like Minnesota and others to cooperate with the federal government as it pertains to immigration. They did so when President Obama was in office. He was, quote/unquote, deporter-in-chief, which I think is a ludicrous moniker. But nevertheless, they cooperated.
Why can't we do the same thing now so that we do keep people safe, so that we aren't unfairly violating people's constitutional rights?
BEGALA: President Obama said, lets target the gang, not the grandmas. And he did. And he did deport more people in his term than Trump did in his first term.
SINGLETON: He did. I have to acknowledge that he did.
BEGALA: But he targeted law enforcement on bad guys. Trump is stopping innocent people in the street. Mr. Trump's ICE agents are obviously not doing it personally. But what he is doing, it seems to me as a citizen unrelated to who is violent and dangerous and wholly related to who is black and brown. I think that's his agenda here. And if you listen to some of his
supporters, that's what they seem to be.
TAPPER: Isn't it true? And I'm about to open up a whole other issue. But like, isn't it true that this surge of ICE troops followed the outcry about all that fraud committed in Minnesota, at least $1 billion, if not many more billion.
SINGLETON: Nine billion estimated.
TAPPER: And all this conservative anger and ire about the Somali community, some of whose members, a minority of whose members played a role in all that fraud?
SINGLETON: Well, look, I don't want fraud coming from --
TAPPER: No one. No one does.
SINGLETON: People in this country work very, very hard, and they want every single dollar to be accountable. We have a DOJ. They can work with the state. They know how funds are disbursed, figure out who receives certain funds, do forensic accounting of their bank accounts, and put those people in jail.
TAPPER: The lead prosecutor in Minnesota, who was -- who was leading that charge, the acting U.S. attorney, resigned, obviously, because of all this. Anyway, we're not going to resolve this right now. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.
Good news today for anyone looking to buy a home, something that hasn't happened since the fall of 2022. That's next.
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[18:58:54]
TAPPER: Our last lead start in our national lead, where a fast-moving snowstorm is affecting the Midwestern United States. Reduced visibility from snow and wind caused a 30-vehicle pileup in Indiana yesterday. The Northeast also is feeling low temperatures today, with a few inches of snow expected to fall on Saturday. Heavier snowfalls are forecast for the Great Lakes area, of course.
And our money lead, mortgage rates are now at their lowest level since September 2022. According to Freddie Mac, the average 30-year fixed mortgage rate is just over 6 percent as of today. Earlier this month, President Trump called for the purchase of $200 billion in mortgage bonds to try and push borrowing rates lower. Experts hope this drop could help ease the housing market stalemate.
In our politics lead the rebranding of the Department of Defense as the Department of War, which is what it was called during World War II, that rebranding could cost somewhere between $10 million and $125 million, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
The money would be largely used to update signage and letterheads, and websites, the CBO stated. The cost estimates are uncertain because the Department of Defense has yet to provide exact details of the plan.
You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, Bluesky and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and on Instagram @TheLeadCNN.
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"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. Take it away, Erin.
