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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Shifts Tone Surrounding Minnesota Crisis; Friends And Family Testify On Alex Pretti's Character; Ice And Snow Cause Power Outages Across U.S.; Sources: Border Patrol Chief Bovino To Leave Minneapolis Tomorrow; Feds & MN Argue Over Evidence In Pretti Shooting. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired January 26, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Here is Alex Pretti, again, the man who lost his life. He was killed by federal agents in Minneapolis. But we have to imagine he would want to be remembered in his own words for doing things like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX PRETTI, SHOOTING VICTIM: Today, we remember that freedom is not free. We have to work at it, nurture it, protect it, and even sacrifice for it. May we never forget and always remember our brothers and sisters who have served so that we may enjoy the gift of freedom. So, in this moment, we remember and give thanks for their dedication and selfless service to our nation in the cause of our freedom. In this Psalm hour, we read them our honor and our gratitude.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: And Jake Tapper, it's a solemn hour for our country and a reminder there that freedom is not free.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: You know, my mom was a V.A. nurse. It is a very, very special kind of person that takes such a -- you don't do it for the money. You do it for opportunities to speak to veterans and their families like that. Thanks, Kasie. We'll look for more tomorrow in "The Arena."

HUNT: Thanks, Jake. See you.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is "CNN Breaking News."

TAPPER: Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper. We're following breaking news in our "National Lead." A notable shift in President Donald Trump's tone, at least in the last few hours, in his latest statements and actions surrounding the crisis in Minnesota.

Today, President Trump announced he is sending White House border czar Tom Homan to take charge of federal immigration enforcement in Minnesota, which many observers see as a tacit acknowledgement that Border Patrol Commander Greg Bovino and Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem have hurt the administration's case with statements that are blatantly false, at least according to all evidence we know as of now. The president also posted a message on social media that seemed rather conciliatory about a phone call with Democratic Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, whom he has been insulting for the better part of a year or two. The president writing -- quote -- "It was a very good call, and we, actually, seemed to be on a similar wavelength. I told Governor Walz that I would have Tom Homan call him and that what we're looking for are any and all criminals that they have in their possession. The governor very respectfully understood that, and I will be speaking to him in the near future. Crime is way down, but both Governor Walz and I want to make it better" -- unquote.

Walz's office described the phone call as productive, saying -- quote -- "The president agreed that he would talk to his Department of Homeland Security about ensuring the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is able to conduct an independent investigation into the death of Alex Pretti."

"The president also agreed to look into reducing the number of federal agents in Minnesota and working with the state in a more coordinated fashion on immigration enforcement regarding violent criminals" -- unquote.

Today, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said the administration could pull back on the deployment of the thousand Customs and Border Protection agents in Minnesota if state officials cooperate with ICE and forces. In fact, sources now tell CNN that Border Patrol Commander Bovino and some of his agents are expected to leave Minneapolis tomorrow.

Now, this shift in tone from the White House follows two days of top Trump administration officials making what can only be called blatant misrepresentations about Saturday's killing of Alex Pretii, a 37-year- old V.A. ICU nurse from Minneapolis.

Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said without evidence that Pretti brandished a gun and committed an act of domestic terrorism. Senior advisor Stephen Miller called him an assassin. Bavino said Pretti assaulted law enforcement?

False, false, false, false. Those statements all at best inconsistent with what we can all see on the videos of the shooting and, at worst, egregious lies. Either way, these officials are being called out as such even by opinion journalists who are normally quite supportive of the administration.

"The Wall Street Journal" and the free press editorial boards, even the New York Post editorial board, wrote today -- quote -- "Mr. President, the American people didn't vote for these scenes and you can't continue to order them to not believe their lying eyes" -- unquote. Even Leavitt wouldn't stand by the Noem and Miller lies today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Secretary Noem said Alex Pretti committed an act of domestic terrorism. Stephen Miller labeled Pretti a domestic terrorist. Does the president agree with them?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, as I've said, I have not heard the president characterize Mr. Pretti in that way. However, I have heard the president say he wants to let the facts and the investigation lead itself.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Was he alarmed to hear his top officials referring to him in that way, rushing to that judgment?

LEAVITT: Danny, go ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's start with CNN's Anderson Cooper who's in Minneapolis. Anderson, tell us what you're seeing and hearing there today now that it appears as though the president is sidelining Bovino and sending in border czar Tom Homan.

[17:04:54]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes, look, I certainly think there's a lot of people who have been out in the streets, a lot of people who have been out of the memorial for Alex Pretti, as we have seen in the last couple days, who will truly be relieved to hear about the reassignment or the demotion or whatever one wants to characterize it as of Greg Bovino. There certainly has not been much confidence in his ability to tell the truth or his ability to control any of the agents or many of the agents under his alleged leadership.

And I think, you know -- so, you hear -- people I've talked to are pleased by that news, unclear exactly what it means to have Tom Homan coming in. Obviously, there are some people who are going to read that as a good development, anything that brings some sort of order and sense of decent policing by some of these agents from border patrol or ICE.

I mean, we've all seen the images of what happened to Alex Pretti, the tactics that the local police here, the city police, have been decrying by many of these border patrol agents, by these mass ICE agents who seem to answer to no one.

And, as you know, the federal government is now in charge. The Border Patrol, ICE is in charge of investigating what happened. Whether they're investigating their own officers or investigating Alex Pretti as a domestic terrorist, as the secretary of Homeland Security labeled him, as you've been reporting, and Gregory Bovino as well and Stephen Miller, that is unclear.

So, there's a lot of skepticism. There's a lot of fear and anger here. But, certainly, it does feel like something is changing in how that actually reflects on the ground in terms of actual operations. Will people still be ripped out of their cars, have their seat belts cut, be pushed on the ground, be maced, you know, with chemical agents is unclear. So, a lot remains to be seen. But it certainly has been a day of breaking developments and some sort of sense that there is some sort of change. TAPPER: Yes. Greg Bovino being pulled back is not exactly a vote of confidence. Anderson Cooper in Minneapolis, thanks so much. It's critical for you, the American people or any of our friends around the world, it's critical for you to see with your own eyes exactly how this shooting unfolded based on videos taken by witnesses at the scene, and thank God that people were filming it. CNN's Kyung Lah takes us through some of these videos now. It's a warning that they're difficult to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In new witness video, we are getting our earliest look at the moments before Alex Pretti is shot and killed. We can now piece together six minutes before the shooting.

This new video and multiple others analyzed by CNN do not capture any violent actions by protesters or Pretti. And Pretti's handgun, legally-owned and carried, was removed by a federal officer just before Pretti was killed. As officers cluster on the sidewalk outside a donut store, Pretti is across the street with two officers. Seconds later, one of those officers pushes Pretti.

PRETTI: Do not touch me.

LAH (voice-over): Pretti's family and friends say he was a V.A. nurse and someone deeply connected to the community. He joined the citizen effort to protest in the wake of Renee Good's death. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem claims Pretti's motivation was this.

KRISTI NOEM, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: This looks like a situation where an individual arrived at the scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement.

LAH (voice-over): The multiple videos, interviews, and witness statements so far do not support that claim. Pretti has his cellphone lifted, appearing to be recording.

PRETTI: They're legal observers.

LAH (voice-over): A witness says about 15 observers were on the street watching the officers. After that first exchange with the officer --

PRETTI: Do not touch me.

LAH (voice-over): -- seconds later, someone standing near Pretti is on the ground. Agents appear to restrain that person. Then several officers run across the street. For a couple more minutes, Pretti, seen in a separate video, continues moving traffic and helps this witness find a parking spot. But then another confrontation. An officer shoves a woman wearing an orange backpack to the ground. Pretti steps in between the woman and the officer and is sprayed in the face. This is the account from a top border patrol official.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GREG BOVINO, COMMANDER-AT-LARGE, U.S. BORDER PATROL: He brought a semiautomatic weapon to a riot, assaulted federal officers and, at some point, they saw that weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH (voice-over): Video analyzed so far does not support that there was a riot or that Pretti assaulted federal officers. As the officers pulled Pretti to the ground, he has one hand in the air and the other holding his cellphone. Pretti did have a legal permit to carry and had a handgun in his waistband. When we freeze the video, you can see the gun visible on his back. This agent wearing a gray jacket removes Pretti's gun.

[17:10:01]

A moment later, the first gunshot. This officer wearing a black beanie and a green shirt has his gun aimed at Pretti. Pretti is kneeling, looking down. There are a total of 10 gunshots. A second officer wearing a brown hat also has his gun drawn, but it's unclear if he fired.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH (on camera): A witness to the shooting says in a court affidavit that they didn't see Pretti touch any of the agents and don't know why they shot him. A licensed pediatrician who ran to administer medical aid to Pretti also says in another court affidavit that the officers appear to be counting bullet wounds instead of checking for a pulse or administering CPR.

And Jake, just to, you know, kind of go over what that pediatrician said. That pediatrician says Pretti had three bullet holes in his back, one to his upper left chest, possibly another gunshot wound to the neck. Jake?

TAPPER: Kyung Lah, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Coming up, new details about Alex Pretti himself. What brought him to that Minneapolis street in the first place? Plus, the testimony about his character from the relative of one of his patients at the Minneapolis V.A. Also, I had a court hearing wrapping just a short time ago calling on federal officials to preserve any evidence in the Alex Pretti shooting. The top attorney in that case will be here. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK STUMBRAS, FORMER CLASSMATE OF ALEX PRETTI: You certainly knew that he was a fun and he was a loving guy. The idea that you could describe this man as a terrorist makes me mad beyond words. (END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In our "National Lead," family and friends are pushing back against what they call sickening lies about Alex Pretti, the 37-year- old V.A. hospital ICU nurse shot and killed by federal agents Saturday while video recording with his phone on the street. CNN's Sara Sidner reports now from Minneapolis about what we do know at this point about Alex Pretti's background.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Thirty-seven-year-old Alex Pretti was an ICU nurse. His job involved treating critically ill patients at the Minneapolis Veterans Medical Center.

PRETTI: May we never forget and always remember our brothers and sisters who have served so that we may enjoy the gift of freedom.

SIDNER (voice-over): That's him giving tribute to a veteran who died. A chaplain who worked alongside him for 10 years at the V.A. hospital spoke of him in a Sunday service.

UNKNOWN: He was known for his kindness and generous.

SIDNER (voice-over): Border patrol agents shot Pretti multiple times, his body slumping dead on the pavement on Saturday. Friends say and video shows he was trying to protect a woman agents were shoving as border patrol agents came to the neighborhood hunting someone else.

HEATHER ZIELENSKI, FRIEND OF ALEX PRETTI: Absolutely, he was standing up for someone.

SIDNER (VOICE-OVER): Pretti's friends and neighbors say he began protesting ICE actions after an ICE agent killed Renee Good during her encounter with ICE.

CHRIS GRAY, NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR OF ALEX PRETTI: The Alex that I want the world to remember was out on the streets yesterday with 50,000 people on general strike and a mass nonviolent protest.

SIDNER (voice-over): Pretti grew up in Green Bay, Wisconsin. He was a Boy Scout, sang in the Green Bay Boys Choir, and played football, baseball, and ran track at Preble High School.

STUMBRAS: A lot of people had a lot of respect for him. An attack on Alex feels like an attack on all of us.

SIDNER (voice-over): His former high school classmate described him as someone with a zest for life.

STUMBRAS: I don't have words to describe the amount of rage that I have when he's described as a domestic terrorist. He was there to help people. He was there to spread a message of warmth and love in this country. SIDNER (voice-over): He graduated from the University of Minnesota in 2011 with a degree in biology, society, and the environment. He was a research scientist before he became a registered nurse. He was an outdoorsman who also loved the theater and the arts.

His parents released a statement describing their son. Alex, they said, was a kindhearted soul who cared deeply for his family and friends and also the American veterans whom he cared for. Alex wanted to make a difference in this world. Unfortunately, he will not be with us to see his impact.

A former teacher recalled he was a good student who loved helping people. "I'm not one bit surprised that his final act on this earth was to help a woman who had been viciously thrown to the ground."

CHRISTOPHER DISALVI, FRIEND OF ALEX PRETTI: This is a guy who is trying to serve others, too. He was genuine. He was kind. He was friendly to everybody that I know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (on camera): There are no shortage of people who want to talk about Alex Pretti and the person that he was. Over and over again, the anger growing because of how the government, the federal government in particular, is talking about him. People here saying they are doing everything they can to slander a good man's name.

Let me give you a sense, Jake, of the growing memorial, and it is growing. It has been growing every single day. Sometimes, by the hour. You are seeing everything from people from the Buddhist faith, people from the Catholic faith. You are seeing people bring all manner of things. You'll see in pine cones in the snow, long live Alex Pretti.

You're seeing all manner of things, including, which is very poignant, Jake, if you will zoom into the cross, you will see stethoscopes there, and that is remembering his job as a nurse at the V.A. caring for others. And now, people are trying to care for his legacy. Jake?

TAPPER: Sara Sidner in Minneapolis, thank you so much. Let's bring in Sara Misner who shared on Facebook how Pretti treated her critically ill father last summer at the Minneapolis V.A. Sara, tell us more about when you first met Alex Pretti. What stood out?

SARA MISNER, FATHER CARED FOR IN HOSPITAL BY ALEX PRETTI: Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be able to talk about him. My dad had to be in the ICU because of a -- he had sepsis. And so, so we got a call late on an evening, like at 10 o'clock, and we had to go in, and we're obviously really scared because we were told he had to be intubated unless -- otherwise, he would die.

[17:20:01]

And so, Alex was the one who greeted us and was so kind. I'll never forget. We were in a state of -- my dad was in an acute state, and we were very anxious. My husband and I went in. And he was this wonderful, warm, welcoming presence. He made me feel like he cared so deeply for my dad and myself. He never made us feel like -- we had so many questions. Never made -- you know, was so patient and kind with us.

And actually, I remember that we met him earlier that week because my dad had to go into the ICU earlier and he was his nurse there, too. And he's, like, I love your dad, he's so kind. And I thought, how nice of him that he didn't -- he shared and showed so much kindness to us as his family and to my dad. He didn't have to do that, but he was always so warm.

TAPPER: What motivated you to share this very personal story about Pretti on Facebook knowing what a cesspool social media can be and how divided and ugly the world of politics is right now?

MISNER: Exactly. So, when we first saw that it was him, I didn't even hardly think about it. I don't even post much on Facebook, but I thought I've got to have people know the truth about him because he had made such a poignant impact on us for just a few days in our life. People have to know that I know that he was a wonderful person and that he cared so deeply for not just, you know, myself and my dad and all the other patients that he's had. The impact he had on us, I wanted other people to know that, too, through my post. So --

TAPPER: And what it is like --

MISNER: -- I just needed people to know that.

TAPPER: What is it like to see so many top government officials just lie about him? I mean, thank God people were filming it because we know the truth now that he was holding a phone, not a gun. He never -- yes, he had a gun on him, he had a permit to do that, but he never touched his gun as far as anybody I know can see. But still, he's called a domestic terrorist.

People said he was -- Stephen Miller called him an assassin. They said he went there to inflict maximum harm, like he was going to kill the officers. And you know this man. And what it has been like to hear them smear him after killing him?

MISNER: It's maddening. And I -- the lies upon lies. We are being lied, too. We know that when -- those of us who know the truth and see the truth, we have to speak the truth and let people know. It makes me so -- the level of anger I felt when I saw, just minutes after, after we saw the video, the federal government lying to us, I said, no, this is not the truth. We have to let people know. And I know his character. Like you said, I knew who he was. So, this has to come out to be the -- the truth has to come out.

TAPPER: Sara Misner, thank you so much for sharing your story, and our best wishes to you and your family, and we thank your father for his service as well. Thank you so much.

MISNER: Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you.

TAPPER: Another major story that we're monitoring today, the extreme weather in the United States. Why the situation for so many right now is considered historic even well after the last snowflake fell. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we're back with the breaking news in our "National Lead" as sources tell CNN that Border Patrol Commander Greg Bovino and some of his agents will leave Minneapolis tomorrow as President Trump puts Border Czar Tom Homan in charge there amidst this crisis for the city and political crisis for the president.

Joining us now, Patrick Skinner. He has quite the extensive resume, serving as a U.S. Capitol police officer, then in the CIA. He's now a police detective in Savannah, Georgia. Patrick, thanks so much for talking to us today. So, on X, you pointed to the screen grab, I'm going to put up, from one of the witness videos of the shooting. Tell us why you think this moment is so significant.

PATRICK SKINNER, FORMER CIA OPERATIONS OFFICER: Well, I mean, it's because he's defenseless. I mean, look, I don't want any police officer to be hurt. I am a police officer. But I also don't want anybody to be hurt. I get that the situations are dangerous. But if you have a phone in one hand, which we demonstrably know it's a phone because people are filming it, and his other hand is on the ground, he is not reaching for a gun. In fact, we saw that he never reached for the gun.

And so, it's just there are so many people around him, and they're escalating at every stage. It starts with somebody walking up and literally pushing a woman down on the ground. And at every stage, they're escalating. And that image and that scene is reality and it's horrible. It's just -- I mean, it's outrageous. Everyone should be outraged.

TAPPER: As somebody who is trained in law enforcement and is trained in not only confrontation but de-escalation, what do you think was wrong here? Do you think these agents have a lack of training? Is that a disregard for the training? Are they even being told to go on the streets and create conflict?

SKINNER: I think that's the crux of the issue. Either it's incompetence or it's intentional. And intentional would be catastrophic for us. And then incompetence is also catastrophic for many people. The training is -- one, they're not local police, they're federal law enforcement, which is a big difference between police, which respond to 911 calls and enforce local laws and state laws, and the federal, which enforce federal laws. And ICE, these are CPB. But ICE is different. They enforce immigration laws.

And at every stage, not just in Minneapolis, but in Maine and Chicago and Memphis, we see that they're escalating.

[17:30:04] And it's -- I don't know if this is, one, it's terrible training, if that's what they're trained for, because you are supposed to slow down. You're supposed to, I mean, if you talk to somebody that way, without a badge and a gun, you would probably have issues.

And I always say, if you didn't have a badge and a gun, how would you handle this 911 call? And what they're doing is they're walking up to people and they're pushing. I mean, you can see right now what they're doing. And so that's either incompetent because they're training people so fast and they're hiring too fast and they're just -- it's not a good mix or it's intentional and that they are doing what they were supposed to do.

And that's terrible because what they're doing is escalating every single situation. All they have to do is slow down. It did not have to happen.

TAPPER: If Minnesota detectives end up getting access to the evidence and are able to conduct an investigation, which is still an if, what do you think they should be looking for?

SKINNER: Oh, I mean, so the burden of proof, the rationale is, did the officer had a reasonable expectation or a reasonable belief that he was in imminent danger or someone else was? And so there's why there's massive deference to police officers, but he didn't touch his gun. In fact, I think the reason why they pulled it out so fast was because he told him he had it, because otherwise they just quickly found it in the back holster.

They're looking for -- did this person have the motive and the means and opportunity to harm them? And we can see thankful people are filming, filming is what is the evidence and that's showing that our federal government is lying and that what they're doing is unacceptable. I mean, it's an outrage. It's against the oath that I took. It's against what they took. And it should outrage every single American because they're doing it in our name.

TAPPER: Patrick Skinner, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And thanks for the various ways you've served our country.

The top attorney who was just in court moments ago, calling on federal officials to preserve evidence obtained in the shooting of Alex Pretti. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:36:18]

TAPPER: Breaking in our National Lead, more than two dozen records shattered as temperatures across the United States plummet. After this weekend's historic winter storm, the weather is to blame for at least 15 deaths. More than 200 million people are under cold weather alerts. Many will not let up for several days, the alerts. To make matters worse, almost 700,000 people across 10 states do not have any power.

One of the hardest-hit states is Tennessee. At one point in Nashville alone, 230,000 people there did not have electricity. That's the most in state history. CNN's Isabel Rosales is in Nashville. Isabel, what are conditions like where you are?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, I'm in East Nashville, and if this weren't so devastating, this would be beautiful, like a winter wonderland. You can see in this car right here, they try to put their windshield wipers on. And look at this thick, I can't even break that, this thick cover of ice.

Actually, look over here. Look at what this does to the trees. Thousands of trees everywhere, weighed down by all of this heavy ice splitting in two. And in this case, falling on this new-built home, a lot of them falling over power lines. Actually, Mike, if we move the camera up, you can see on the power lines these icicles still hanging on, a day -- two days after the storm rolled through. This is what the conditions that the power companies are having to deal with right now that are causing.

As of yesterday, 92 percent of Davidson County, where Metro Nashville is at, to go out of power. That number has much improved. Listen to the head of the utility, what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENT BAKER, COO, NASHVILLE ELECTRIC SERVICE: This is going to be a historic event. It has, you know, gotten us up to 230,000 outages yesterday. This will be a week-long event, at a minimum, that we're going to be working on this. But we think if we make it through today's cold weather and the trees continue to fall, as our vegetation crews come in and clear some of that other risk, we'll start to make more progress as the days continue on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: And the temperature tomorrow morning, zero degrees. That's a low, something that hasn't happened in Nashville in over 25 years. And in fact, Jake, I was just around the corner following some linemen where they told me it was so cold that they believe that actually broke their hydraulic bucket.

So they had to get another lineman with a different truck to go up and actually rescue the line worker out of that bucket. So it goes to show how these temperatures are really making for challenging conditions out here. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Isabel, go back inside. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

[17:38:49]

This just in, a message from President Trump about his new phone conversations with officials in Minneapolis and throughout Minnesota. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Just in to our Politics Lead moments ago, a new Truth Social post from President Trump saying, "I just had a very good telephone conversation with Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis. Lots of progress is being made. Tom Homan, the border czar, will be meeting with him tomorrow in order to continue the discussion. And then the inevitable thank you for your attention to this matter."

Mayor Frey confirms the call. And in a statement, the mayor said, "The President agreed that the present situation cannot continue." The president also held a call today with the governor of Minnesota. Democrat Tim Walz says they are both, "on a similar wavelength," while the governor says the President agreed to consider reducing the number of federal agents in his state.

Let's talk about this now with Billy Binion, a reporter at Reason, where he writes about criminal justice and government accountability, and also with us, Radley Balko, who covers criminal justice and writes the substack, "The Watch."

Billy, you're one of the more interesting thinkers, you and Radley, out there. You have been calling out the hypocrisy we've seen of conservatives, so-called conservatives, who have justified the killing because Alex Pretti, according to the Department of Homeland Security, was carrying a semi-automatic weapon, though he had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. And one of your posts on social media read, in part, the Second Amendment does not cease to apply when inconvenient. Tell us more.

BILLY BINION, REPORTER, REASON MAGAZINE: Yes, so there are actually several, I mean, there's a pretty good amount of case law that has established that merely having a gun on your person is not enough to justify deadly force. It has to be about the totality of the circumstances. So a court would have to examine not just that he had a gun, but everything else that was going on around him.

I mean, I think it's very interesting because this administration has claimed many times to be kind of Second Amendment absolutists, and that has been really core to the Republican Party since, you know, after Ronald Reagan.

[17:45:05]

So, you know, so the idea that, you know, Kash Patel, Kristi Noem, all of these people coming out, and immediately jumping right on this idea that because he had a gun, he invited violence upon him. I mean, I wrote quite a bit about the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, and that prosecution was kind of, in some sense, brought into motion by that same idea, that he had invited violence by having a gun on his person, and he was, in my view, rightly acquitted. So I don't see how they can have it both ways.

And I also want to emphasize, there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about the legality of filming law enforcement.

TAPPER: Yes. BINION: Several -- seven federal circuits, even, have confirmed that it is a First Amendment right. It's not ambiguous. It is a First Amendment right to record law enforcement. I see a lot of people conflating that with violence and physically obstructing them. Obviously, violence is already criminal, and this administration can prosecute it. So it chooses, and I assume it will. But filming government employees on the job is a very basic core act of freedom of speech.

TAPPER: Yes. We're going to have more on that in the show later on. You'll be happy to hear it. Radley, how would you grade the Trump administration's messaging on ISIS presence in Minnesota as it relates to freedom of speech and the Second Amendment?

RADLEY BALKO, AUTHOR, "THE WATCH" SUBSTACK: Well, I mean, I think we're giving them way too much credit to even sort of be having this debate. I mean, they don't care. They've made it pretty clear that they think that anyone who records ICE or watches ICE or protests ICE, they've called a domestic terrorist.

They have put out press releases after the killing of both Renee Good and Alex Pretti, calling both domestic terrorists. They have justified the shootings and really celebrated and valorized them within hours of them happening. They have prevented local police from conducting their own independent investigation.

I mean, this is all, you know, what they want. I mean, they have made it very clear that they don't think that any of these rights actually exist so long as you oppose Donald Trump and his agenda.

TAPPER: So, Billy, here's just a little bit of the rhetoric that we've heard come out of the top officials of the Trump administration. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: This individual who came with weapons and ammunition to stop a law enforcement operation of federal law enforcement officers committed an act of domestic terrorism.

GREG BOVINO, BORDER PATROL COMMANDER-AT-LARGE: He was in the scene actively impeding and assaulting law enforcement.

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: You do not get to attack law enforcement officials in this country without any repercussions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: First of all, unless you're a January 6th attacker of law enforcement, but be that as it may, what are your thoughts on what we've heard from these officials?

BINION: Sure. I mean, it really just makes me grateful for the ubiquity of tech because, I mean, the government has a long history, not just this administration, but every administration, you know, state, local, federal, has a history of trying to cover its tracks and lying to the public.

And it is much harder to do that in an era where tech is everywhere. You know, I know that we are seeing people watch these clips, whether it's of Renee Good or whether it's this most recent shooting by Border Patrol and coming up with different conclusions. But at a bare minimum, whether you're a Republican, Libertarian, Democrat, it's very difficult to watch the clips that have come out and walk away, you know, not disabused of, you know, some of the things that Kristi Noem said, the idea that he, you know, was there, I think the quote was, to massacre law enforcement.

I mean, whatever your politics and whatever you think of the shooting, I don't see how you can watch the footage and come away with the idea that he was there to massacre law enforcement.

TAPPER: And, Radley, you have a new opinion piece in the New York Times where you write in part, "We can still stop these abuses of power, but we need to be clear about what we're facing. This is no longer a conversation about law enforcement or immigration policy. This is about authoritarianism." And you say we can still take action to stop these abuses. What should people do while not risking their lives?

BALKO: Well, I mean, you know, after the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin famously said, was asked if we have a monarchy or a republic, and he said a republic, you can keep it. You know, I'm not saying that everyone should go out and risk their lives. You shouldn't have to risk your life to exercise your constitutional rights. But we've seen it in Minnesota, right?

I mean, after the killing of Rene Good, we had 50,000 plus Minnesotans showed up in zero degree weather to get to demand that ICE leave the city and to stick up for their rights and stick up for their neighbors. We still have seen people continue to watch ICE -- do ICE watch in Minnesota. In fact, there have been trainings that have set records around the country for training new people on how to monitor ICE and how to alert people when they're in the neighborhood.

You know, I think just, you know, speaking up, speaking out, doing what you can, using whatever, you know, gifts you have. You know, you don't necessarily have to put your body on the line, although I have a lot of respect for people who do.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both you, Radley Balko and Billy Binion. Really appreciate it.

[17:50:03]

More breaking news in our National Lead, the Federal Court hearing this afternoon in Minnesota, focused on preventing the destruction or alteration of evidence related to the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti. This fight appears to be centered on the gun that video show an agent took from Pretti an instant before he was shot and killed, as well as body camera video from some of the agents.

We're joined now from Minnesota by Hennepin County Attorney Mary Moriarty. Mary, tell us more about what happened today in court.

MARY MORIARTY, HENNEPIN COUNTY: It might be helpful to focus back on what happened on Saturday.

After Alex Pretti was shot, I was in contact with the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. That's the BCA, our state law enforcement agency, that is charged with investigating deadly use of force cases with law enforcement. So the BCA went to the scene with the intention of processing the scene, collecting evidence and that sort of thing.

And they were physically blocked by ICE agents who stood a couple of feet apart with batons. So they were physically blocked from actually entering the scene to do what they would normally do in a case like this. So we worked together with the BCA. The BCA drafted a warrant and we made sure a judge was available to sign that warrant immediately. With the idea that the BCA would be able to serve that warrant on the federal government to allow them access to the scene.

Even with a warrant that was actually signed by a judge, they refused to allow our BCA to have access. And so we filed a lawsuit in federal court Saturday night that included a motion for a temporary restraining order that the federal government preserve all of the evidence that they obtained and not alter any of it. And a few hours after we filed that, the federal judge granted it.

He set a hearing today at 2 o'clock where our staff in the attorney general's office appeared in court to argue that that should be permanent, that they should be -- the federal government should be required to preserve all of the evidence. Because we don't know what evidence that they took, but all of the evidence and that they not alter it. And the judge took that under advisement this afternoon.

TAPPER: So you say you don't know what evidence there is. Do you have any idea what evidence they took from the scene of the shootings? Presumably we know Alex Pretti was filming. Presumably he had a gun. Presumably the guns of the other agents and any body cams they have. Anything else?

MORIARTY: Well, we know Alex Pretti, or he appeared to be filming. And so it would be helpful to have his phone. And we presume that they took that phone, and there may be helpful information there. They may have talked to witnesses, although we immediately put out a statement asking people who might have helpful evidence, whether it be video or videos, to send that to our portal at the Hennepin County Attorney's Office. We have received substantial amount of information, including videos and including witnesses who were too afraid to come forward and talk to the federal government. And we have made arrangements for them to be interviewed.

TAPPER: So I assume it's too early to ask if you intend to file a criminal case, but this theoretically could be part of a criminal case against one of the officers?

MORIARTY: Yes, absolutely. The Hennepin County Attorney's Office, which is Minneapolis and its many suburbs, has the authority to charge a violation of state law that's a felony. And so our goal here is to collect as much evidence as we can, and the BCA is doing whatever investigation that they can, not only on this case, but on the case of Renee Good and a gentleman who was shot in the leg last week.

So they are collecting as much evidence as they possibly can. They will give it all to us. We will look at everything we get, and we will decide whether there is enough evidence to go forward with charges. So, you know, I hear a lot of talk about absolute immunity. That does not exist here. We do have jurisdiction. We can file charges if we feel that that's appropriate.

Now, there may be federal defenses to that, but that is something to litigate after the fact. So right now, we are trying to meet. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

TAPPER: Well, just I only have a minute left, and I would just want to ask you a quick question, which is the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche said that after the incident happened, it was local law enforcement that came on the scene and local law enforcement lost the crime scene because protesters and rioters overtook the crime scene. Todd Blanche saying it was not federal law enforcement. It was not Border Patrol agents that did not preserve the crime scene. Is that true?

MORIARTY: I don't know if that's a lie or he just doesn't know what he's talking about. It is not true. I was on the phone with the BCA. We also had a staff member from our office there at the scene. It was the federal government, not the local police department, that was blocking the BCA from entering, which is why we got a search warrant signed by a judge so that they could enter the scene. So that is absolutely not the case. It was the federal government that was blocking our own BCA from processing that scene.

[17:55:16]

TAPPER: All right. Hennepin County Attorney Mary Moriarty, come back soon, please. Thanks so much.

CNN was the first to report that at least two of the officers involved in the Alex Pretti shooting were wearing body cameras. Were they filming? Will the public ever see their footage? What our sources say about the internal conversations on this investigation. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:59:46]

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the top Border Patrol official and some of his agents are now expected to leave Minneapolis. As CNN learns, the Trump administration is deeply frustrated with how Mr. Bovino handled the fallout after the deadly shooting of Alex Pretti on Saturday. And it appears the White House is, albeit slightly and albeit just now, as we know, seeming to change its tune a bit.