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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. Thom Tillis, (R-CA), Is Interviewed About Trump Warns Minneapolis Mayor Frey He Is "Playing With Fire", Shutdown Looms As Dems Threaten DHS Funding Over ICE Reform; Meta, YouTube Head To Court In Social Media Addiction Case; TX Lawmaker Visits ICE Facility Where 5-Year-Old Is Being Detained. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired January 28, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:41]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Two federal agents involved in the killing of Alex Pretti last Saturday have been put on administrative leave. The Lead starts right now.

One day after calling for a little bit of a de-escalation, President Trump is now accusing the Minneapolis mayor of playing with fire, bucking calls to fire his Homeland Security secretary, Kristi Noem, and accusing a Democratic congresswoman who was attacked of staging it. Republican Senator Thom Tillis is among those wanting Kristi Noem out. He's going to join us in a moment here on The Lead. Plus, as I mentioned, Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar attacked at a town hall. What we know about the attacker and about the liquid spirit preyed on her by a man who charged at her from the front row.

And CNN has rare access inside Iran. What its leaders told CNN about deadly demonstration, Trump's recent threats and how the regime is pushing back.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start with breaking news on our national lead. President Trump now warning Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey that he is, quote, "playing with fire," unquote, if the city does not enforce federal immigration laws. The Democratic mayor responded on X or Twitter posting, quote, "The job of our police is to keep people safe, not enforce federal immigration laws. I want our police preventing homicides, not hunting down a working dad. Everyone should feel safe calling 911."

Mayor Frey also pointed out that his immigration policies for Minneapolis are similar to the ones that Rudy Giuliani had when he was mayor of New York City.

Now Trump's threat comes just one day after his tone slightly softened momentarily, saying he planned to de-escalate the high octane situation in Minneapolis. But then Trump remarked on last night's physical attack on Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, saying, quote, "I think she's a fraud. She probably had herself sprayed." Knowing her, there is no possible evidence of that. And that is not a particularly compassionate response to a member of Congress getting attacked. So I think we can call this one of the shortest lived Trump changes in tone in Trump history.

The backlash against the Trump administration has continued since federal officers shot and killed protester Alex Pretti on Saturday. Today, a Homeland Security official said that the officers involved in that shooting are now on administrative leave, which is standard protocol when there's an internal investigation. And as for the immigration enforcement operation in Minneapolis, a changing of the guard, so to speak, Border Patrol Chief Gregory Bovino has been removed from Minneapolis. President Trump put his border czar, Tom Homan, in charge there. Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, the Democrat, spoke about his meeting with Homan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. TOM HOMAN, (D) MINNESOTA: Tom Homan's a professional, which is a lot more than Bovino and Kristi Noem. But look, I think the thing we said is we're very clear about this, that we need these folks out of Minnesota.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Governor Walz is far from the only official singing the criticisms of DHS Secretary Kristi Noem after she rushed out and basically accused Alex Pretti of brandishing a gun, being a domestic terrorist, intending to kill as many law enforcement officers as possible. Of course, we all have seen the videos. There's nothing, no evidence suggests that that is true.

Top House Democrats have announced they will soon support a vote to impeach Noem unless Trump immediately moves to fire her. So far, Trump is standing by her. But now some Republicans are saying they want Noem gone. Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and a senator who will join us in just a second, retiring Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-CA): Discrediting what I consider to be a very. A very well organized operation in ice, but discrediting even these officers. They're going to make their job more difficult and more dangerous with this incompetence that I'm seeing out of Noem and out of Stephen Miller.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The President called you a loser, I believe.

TILLIS: I am thrilled about that. That makes me qualified to be Homeland Security Secretary and senior adviser to the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Within the Trump administration, we are now seeing some finger pointing. Axios reporting that Secretary Noem says that her initial statements on the shooting were directly from Trump aide Stephen Miller. Miller, of course, on Saturday posted on X he falsely called Pretti an assassin. But Miller told CNN that, quote, "The initial statement from DHS was based on reports from the Customs and Border Patrol officers on the ground."

[17:05:23]

Miller also claimed that officials were evaluating why CBP agents in Minneapolis, quote, "may not have been following," unquote, proper protocol before the Pretti shooting. An acknowledgement a bit there of possible wrongdoing. But while we are hearing a lot of Trump administration officials playing the blame game, we're not hearing any of them apologize for smearing a man that federal agents killed, not to mention killing him to begin with. Let's go to Shimon Prokupecz on the ground in Minneapolis.

And Shimon, what are you seeing there today? And now that Tom Homan's in charge of the immigration operation there, is anything going to change in terms of tactics or approach?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: I mean, certainly people here hope so, right? The city officials, the police department, the people who live, who have been on these streets living in fear, they're not that optimistic, right? I mean, things here are so fragile. At any point, people feel that things can really escalate here. It's been a couple of days of calm.

You know, one of the people who is certainly very concerned about what's happening here is the police chief of the Minneapolis Police Department. And I spent some time talking to him, and he is so concerned over the tactics that some of the federal officers were using here. And other thing -- other things that he's concerned about is just his relationship with the community. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN O'HARA, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF: I'm hopeful that, you know, some people in charge on both sides will say, let's just get together and figure this thing out, because this isn't good for anybody. Nobody wins when people get killed. Who wins? Nobody. Let's acknowledge that one hand, federal law enforcement has a role to do.

They have lawful authority. There is something for them to do. But let's also acknowledge that what's different today is how they are enforcing things. It's the methods that they're using. Let's look at, you know, the tactics and things like the reality that this is causing not just all this fear, which is very real, it's causing practices that are just -- they're not constitutional.

It's not OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And that's the thing, Jake, there, like, he is so candid about how he feels about what has been happening here. And certainly this police department, this community in Minneapolis has been working so hard to maintain peace and to get past so many years of traumas since the George Floyd killing.

The other thing, Jake, that's important to note, and this sort of struck me when I was talking to him, is that he's actually concerned that everything that's been happening here could actually cause crime to go up because he's worried that all the partnerships that the local police has built with federal law enforcement can now be gone with prosecutors being fired and federal officials creating all of this chaos, that some of these agencies are not going to want to work together. And his concern is that crime will go up because the gang activity could go up and that the work that federal law enforcement has been doing with the locals, that all now could end.

TAPPER: All right. Shimon Prokupecz in Minneapolis, thanks so much.

Joining us now, Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina.

Senator, good to have you on. So we've heard a number of accusations from Kristi Noem, from Stephen Miller about what happened Saturday to Alex Pretti and about him. At best, these folks were ill informed. At worst, they were lying. We all have seen the video.

What's been your reaction to what they've said about Alex Pretti and what they claimed happened that day?

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-CA): Well, I think they're doing the American people and the president a great disservice by not realizing how much attention is focused on these operations and how details and discipline matter. They spoke before they knew anything about what occurred on the ground. They didn't even implement the typical protocol that you would in an officer involved shooting as much to protect those officers as the scene of the incident. Everything that goes into an investigation, after a casualty, after a death, they talked too soon. It looked like they wanted to get ahead of a -- of a news cycle.

And it really discredits it. It brings their credibility into question. And Jake, it's very important for people in North Carolina to know. I've held every sheriff in North Carolina that was a sanctuary city jurisdiction accountable, we went after them. Our office filed a bill for justice for sanctuary, justice for victims of sanctuary cities to make sure that if somebody was harmed by someone who was detained and not transferred to ICE that they could sue that local government and get -- and get restitution.

[17:10:10]

So I've made it very clear that I want law enforcement to work with each other. But you can't be situational. You can't expect that out of a Biden administration and Democrat mayors and then not expect us to lead by example, by coordinating with state and local law enforcement. I believe that Noem is out of her depth. I think she's reached the Peter Principle.

She is not competent to run this organization. And I haven't even begun to talk about the failure on FEMA and disaster response in North Carolina, but I will be tomorrow on the floor. TAPPER: Yes. So you have called Noem a complete failure on that issue of disaster response, saying she doesn't know how to manage, that people who badly need resources are not getting them. As you know, North Carolina this weekend is facing the possibility of the heaviest snow in decades. We all saw what happened to the poor citizens of western North Carolina during that natural disaster.

If DHS fails to provide adequate support this weekend, what would that mean for Tar Heels?

TILLIS: Well, I think it could be a tragedy. Keep in mind I've done a comparison. I'll be sharing this tomorrow between President Trump's first administration, which did an extraordinarily good job on disaster response, and the abysmal performance over the last 13 months in this Homeland Security or this FEMA administration under Noem's leadership. It's not even close. And that's what the American people and people in North Carolina need to know.

We had an ice storm go through the mountains on top of the damage that Helene has caused. We still don't have i40 open as it was before. It may not be until 2027. Now we may have enormous snowfall and flooding that comes after that. And they've got to be ready to respond.

I'm glad that they released some $200 million today. I'm sure it's just coincidental that I'm starting to cast light on it, but that's a drop in the bucket to what they already should have had out to the local and state entities trying to recover from Helene. TAPPER: So Senate Democrats are now talking about withholding their

votes on the government funding bill that's coming up soon. Unless there are serious changes made to ICE and these immigration enforcement operations, they're not saying defund ICE, they're not canceling ICE, but they're talking about canceling ICE or getting rid of ICE, but they are talking about, for instance, a measure to saying ICE officers have to take down their masks. And there's a number of things that I'm sure you've heard from Senator Schumer, body cameras, that sort of thing. Would you be willing to negotiate with Democrats on those changes?

TILLIS: Well, I think some of the reforms make sense. I think body cameras make sense. I think de-escalation training makes sense. I am concerned about the mask because I've seen people docs me. I've seen people take pictures that identify law enforcement officers and then put their families at risk.

So I think that's a step too far. They need to think it through. Look again, the ICE officers on the ground, I thank them for their service and the work that they've done in the past. My problem is was when you have a Homeland Security administrator that thinks it's cute to name a camp Alligator Alcatraz and to name an operation in Maine, Catch of the Day. In some respects I think she's probably speaking the truth there.

It's not a focused data driven apprehension strategy, it's catch of the day and at least she's named it that way. But I'm tired of the too cute sophomore high school kid sort of humor on a very serious subject. And we are absolutely tearing away at the fabric of the incredible work that joint task force law enforcement agencies do every day, the FBI, the DEA, ICE, local sheriffs, police chiefs, state law enforcement. She is at the top -- she is responsible for what I think is the single biggest step back in local law enforcement coordination and the effectiveness of joint task force operations than anybody in an administration for the length of time I've been in public service.

TAPPER: I just want to turn to one other thing because I know you care a lot about the NATO alliance. The Danes were so upset by President Trump belittling the sacrifice of non U.S. NATO troops in Afghanistan. They, they put Danish flags outside the U.S. Embassy in Copenhagen, representing each one of the Danish troops who was killed in Afghanistan. Then the U.S. embassy took those flags down. A State Department spokesman telling CNN that the embassy was unaware of the flag significant.

What's your response to that?

TILLIS: Well, I think it's absurd. I mean, the American people need to know that Denmark is a small country, about five or six million people. They lost as many lives per capita as the United States. So it meant as much to them and their population as the loss of life we had here. There is no place except for deep gratitude to every nation that went to Afghanistan to honor their Article 5 commitment to the NATO treaty and the NATO organization. If the president has any question about whether or not they'd answer the call, he should look back at the hundreds of lives that were lost by other member countries in defense of this nation after 9/11.

[17:15:16]

TAPPER: Republican Senator Thom Tillis in North Carolina, thank you so much for your time, sir. We appreciate it.

TILLIS: Thank you.

TAPPER: We're taking this conversation to Minneapolis tonight in a special CNN town hall. It's called State of Emergency Confronting the Crisis in Minnesota. The great Anderson Cooper, the great Sara Sidner are going to moderate. Look for that in just a few hours tonight at 8:00 Eastern here on CNN and on the CNN app.

Right now in Texas, several Democrats are at the immigration detention facility that is holding Liam Ramos. Liam Ramos is that five year old boy who was detained in Minneapolis last week with his father. We'll get an update on the situation there. But first, what CNN is learning about the attack on Congresswoman Ilhan Omar of Minnesota and the man accused of charging at her with a liquid filled syringe. What do we know about him?

Stay with us.

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[17:20:00] TAPPER: In national lead forensic experts believe that liquid sprayed on Congresswoman Ilhan Omar in the attack last night was apple cider vinegar. That's according to a law enforcement source. Local authorities have charged Anthony Kazmierczak with assault, saying he rushed Congresswoman Omar at her congressional town hall in Minneapolis and shot a syringe filled with liquid at her. CNN's Josh Campbell has the latest.

Josh, what do we know about this suspect and his motive? JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're learning more

about him, 55-year-old Anthony Kazmierczak of Minneapolis. He's been booked on third degree assault by the Minneapolis Police Department. We're attempting to determine if he has an attorney. Now, he did have a history of posting online. For example, he had previously shared a political cartoon criticizing Omar's stance on security spending.

He had also reposted some transphobic content, had some past traffic offenses in his history, including two DUIs. But interestingly, Jake, our colleague Chris Boyette spoke to one of his neighbors who said that just before that town hall, the suspect here asked the neighbor if he could watch his dog because the suspect was intending or said that he might get arrested. So it appeared that there may have been some type of premeditation to cause some type of disruption.

On the substance itself, as you mentioned, a law enforcement source told me that they believe that that was apple cider vinegar. But that doesn't mean that he's off the hook. Even a benign substance can be used to terrorize someone. We're hearing from the Capitol Police they are pursuing possible federal criminal charges on their end. They say that this incident, Jake, will be met, in their view, with swift justice.

TAPPER: This attack comes at the same time the Capitol Police say threats against members of Congress are spiking.

CAMPBELL: That's right. On the same day that this event happened, the Capitol Police actually released new figures saying that they've seen a 58 percent increase in the number of threat assessments that they have had to open involving Congress. You can see the spike there. Just, you know, 2023, about 8,000 up to 9,400. And then now look at that jump from 2024 to 2025, nearly 15,000 threat assessments that they've had to do. I'll read you a quote that they put in a statement.

The Capitol Police said that members of Congress of both political parties receive a wide range of threats and concerning statements which can be sent through the mail, e-mail, telephone and social media. They say decreasing violent political rhetoric is one of the best ways to decrease the number of threats across the country. But here's the bad news, Jake, about five years ago I interviewed the Capitol police chief who then was sounding the alarm saying look, these threats are off the charts that we are seeing against the members that we are trying to protect. He issued a call then saying it started from the top, please national leaders bring down the national temperature. Obviously that hadn't happened.

TAPPER: No, you have the president and others accusing her of staging it, which is --

CAMPBELL: Yes.

TAPPER: -- a frankly inhuman thing to say. Josh Campbell, thanks so much.

Up next, CNN's rare access inside Iran and a rare interview with a high ranking government leader. What he told us about recent protests that have turned deadly and threats of an attack from the U.S.

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TAPPER: Our world lead now, CNN is on the ground inside Iran. We're the only American network there as we try to get a better sense of the extent of the country's brutal crackdown on its citizens. The U.S. based human rights activist news agency now says nearly 5,900 protesters have been killed since the anti-government demonstrations began last month. President Trump today again warned Iran of possible military action if Iran didn't negotiate a new nuclear deal.

In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee earlier today, the Secretary of State Marco Rubio, described the Iranian regime as, quote, "probably weaker than it's ever been," unquote. CNN's Fred Pleitgen is reporting for us from Tehran this week operating only with the government's permission. He spoke today with the speaker of Iran's parliament in a revealing interview about President Trump's demands and the mass protests that have gripped the world.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: As U.S. President Donald Trump continues to threaten Iran's leadership, saying that the United States has amassed a gigantic force here in this region ready for military strikes against Iran, Iran's leadership remains defiant. I was able to speak with the speaker of Iranian parliament who tells me any attack on Iran would lead to a protracted war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMMAD BAGHER GHALIBAF (through translator): Maybe Mr. Trump can start a war. But he doesn't have control over the end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Now, President Trump's threats against Iran come in the wake of those massive protests that unfolded here in Tehran and other major cities and even towns and villages across the country in the early part of January. The Iranian leadership acknowledges that thousands of people, most of them civilians, were killed in those protests. The U.S. opposition groups and many of America's allies hold Iran's security forces responsible for those killings, while the Iranians claim the protests were infiltrated by what they call outside groups. In any case, the speaker of Iran's parliament told me Iran is still willing to negotiate with the United States, but not under duress. Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Tehran.

TAPPER: And our thanks to Fred Pleitgen for that report.

In our law and justice lead today, a Russian man has been found guilty of assault after President Trump's younger son -- youngest son, alerted U.K. police that he had seen a woman whom he met on social media getting beaten up on a video call. Nineteen-year-old Barron Trump contacted London officers to report that his friend had been attacked by this man in London in January of last year. The man reportedly admitted that he was jealous of his then girlfriend's relationship friendship with Trump, but that he also felt bad for Barron because he believed the girlfriend was leading him on. Good for Barron Trump.

[17:30:04]

Ahead, the landmark case accusing the social media giants behind Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and more of knowingly making features to make their apps addictive, especially to children. One of The Lead attorneys in the case is going to join us next.

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TAPPER: In our Tech Lead today, jury selection in a landmark case against social media giants Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, and Alphabet, which owns YouTube, is underway in Los Angeles today.

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It marks just the first in a wave of high-profile legal cases that allege social media giants knowingly engineered features that make their apps addictive and nearly impossible for children to put down. These cases are drawing parallels to the legal campaign brought against big tobacco in the 1990s, which accused cigarette makers of covering up the harmful effects of their products.

Now, today's case is brought by a 19-year-old plaintiff who argues these platforms addicted her, harmed her mental health, and triggered thoughts of self-harm and suicide. Her lead attorney, Mark Lanier, joins us now. Mark, walk us through what exactly your client is alleging these companies did to her, to harm her.

MARK LANIER, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING PLAINTIFF IN SOCIAL MEDIA ADDICTION LAWSUIT: These companies have features that they have built into their apps. These features are ones that are specifically designed to get into a preteen or a teen brain and give dopamine hits in such a way that they become as addictive as cigarettes, as opiates, as any addiction may be. The companies did this, and they did this for money. That's our allegation.

TAPPER: So we know that TikTok agreed to settle this case Monday night, and Snap, behind Snapchat, did the same last week. But Meta and Alphabet have not settled. Now, you've argued that these companies need to make direct changes to their apps. What changes do you want to see them make that would make them less addictive and safer for teens and children?

LANIER: Well, they need to do a number of things. But first of all, they ought to do better age-gating. They need to do better at channeling out those children that are too young to use the app effectively and put the fence around it that they know how to do. They're just choosing not to do. They need to also put into place some features that they use elsewhere around the world, features that will stop you after you've been doom-scrolling for an hour and say, take a time-out for a minute, or something that will not just notify you in the middle of the night that you have a like or a ding so that you wake up in the middle of the night and you get on your app. There is a number of things that can be done to make these apps safer for teens, and that's some of what we seek.

TAPPER: Meta released a statement that reads in part, "Despite the snippets of conversations or cherry-picked quotes that plaintiffs' counsel may use to paint an intentionally misleading picture of the company, we're proud of the progress we've made. We stand by our record of putting teen safety first, and we'll keep making improvements." So what's your response specifically to the claim that you have cherry-picked evidence and comments to strengthen your case?

LANIER: I think that what the world needs to see are the actual documents. At this point, those documents have been deemed confidential by Facebook and Meta, and so we're not going to be able to show the documents to the world until we introduce them at trial. But on February the 9th, the judges ordered Mark Zuckerberg to be in court live. I plan on using a number of these documents with him in cross-examination, and we'll see who's taking out of context and who's not.

TAPPER: There's a professor of law at Santa Clara University who's taken issue with your case. I want to read you one thing he said. He says, "Essentially what the plaintiffs are trying to do is argue that social media is the virtual equivalent to a soda bottle, like a Coca- Cola bottle, that explodes and sends shards of glass to anyone in the nearby area. The entire premise of treating publications as products is itself architecturally flawed." What's your response to that?

LANIER: Not at all. If someone or some company is purposefully developing something to addict a mind, knowing that it will divert that mind from growth, from a normal childhood, and it's going to do so, that's not a Coca-Cola bottle that explodes. That's more like tobacco. Those are cigarettes for the eyes.

There's a reason that some of these internal documents are fearful that the people who ultimately out the company will be seen as working along the same lines as big tobacco. And with due respect to the law professor at Santa Clara, that's as different as night and day.

TAPPER: Mark Lanier, thank you so much. We're going to continue to follow this case, so please come back soon.

LANIER: You bet, Jake.

[17:39:27] TAPPER: In Texas right now, several Democrats are speaking up after visiting the immigration detention facility, which is currently holding five-year-old Liam Ramos and his father. You'll recall both were detained in Minneapolis last week. A judge says the two cannot be detained any longer. We're going to go to Texas live, next.

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TAPPER: And we're back with the National Lead setting the scene ahead of tonight's special CNN Town Hall in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It's called State of Emergency, Confronting the Crisis in Minnesota. Let's bring in one of the co-moderators, CNN anchor Sara Sidner, who's in Minneapolis and will moderate alongside Anderson Cooper. And Sara, the new back and forth between the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey, and President Trump underscores the real simmering tension in this city right now.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR & SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It does. It simmers and then it explodes, and then it simmers and explodes and goes back and forth but never goes completely down back to normal. And that is because ICE is still here. And that is because many of the residents here want ICE to leave. And until that happens, you're going to have this tension that continues to permeate the Twin Cities.

[17:44:57]

I do want to give you a sense of who's going to be here and what the area looks like. We're in a community center in Minneapolis, and we will have our guests here. There will be guests such as the mayor of Minneapolis, the attorney general, Keith Ellison, will be here. We'll also be hearing from the police chief, the Minneapolis police chief, who is trying to juggle things between the federal government and what his citizens expect of him. We're also going to be hearing from Republican representatives.

Some state representatives will be here who have agreed to come in and talk through this with the audience. There will be an audience here of a few dozen people. You see some of the chairs there surrounding, and then there are chairs here. We've got a great team here, photographers from all over the country coming in to make sure that you see every angle of this. But this is an important conversation, a conversation that needs to be had in the midst of really it is a crisis here in the Twin Cities.

You have all manner of people worried about their city, worried about the things that they are encountering, whether you are a cook, for example, at a restaurant who gets stopped with your legal papers but gets stopped and picked up anyway, or whether you are someone who's just trying to go to work every day, an American citizen, and concerned about the videos you've been seeing of these killings. There's just a lot to discuss, and we will get through it all, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Sara Sidner, thanks so much. I'll be watching. And again, that special CNN Town Hall starts at 8:00 Eastern tonight on CNN and on the CNN streaming app. Here now to talk about what's going on, CNN's Priscilla Alvarez and CNN's Jeff Zeleny. And Priscilla, you have some new reporting on the role of the Border Czar Tom Homan since he arrived in Minneapolis and Customs and Border Commander Greg Bovino was shown the door. What can you tell us?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, sources tell CNN that Tom Homan has been having back-to-back meetings with federal officials and local officials as they try to sort out what the path forward is going to be in Minneapolis, because while the President has said that he wants to de-escalate, there's still an expectation that immigration enforcement is going to be on the ground.

Now, one U.S. official described these conversations to our colleague Kristen Holmes as, "precarious." The contours of these discussions, I'm told, include, for example, more targeted operations. That means, for example, identifying undocumented immigrants with criminal records and going after them instead of these broad immigration sweeps that were Gregory Bovino style, who, as you mentioned, has been sidelined and has since left Minneapolis.

Now, again, one U.S. official said, "discussions are still very much fluid and no final plan has been signed off on by the White House." What is expected, however, is for the number of agents in the city, remember there was an unprecedented 3,000 of them who were there, to taper off over the coming days and weeks.

So the contours of the plan are still coming together. Nothing has been set in stone yet, but that is what is consuming the time of Tom Homan in Minneapolis since he's been dispatched this week.

TAPPER: Jeff, it's been interesting since the backlash to not only the shooting on Saturday, but the administration's false statements about what we all saw with our eyes and heard with our ears, you have all these selective background leaks. Kristi Noem saying that she -- her statement was taken direction from Steve Miller. Steve Miller saying that he got his information from a Customs and Border Patrol memo. And Miller reversed course yesterday and said, acknowledged that immigration agents may have breached protocol. Tell us more about this.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, the buck stops with no one, so much finger pointing. But what's extraordinary about it is Stephen Miller, of course, is the architect of this immigration crackdown. He's been thinking about it, planning it ever since the first administration, but now finally putting it into place. So it is quite extraordinary for him to acknowledge and walk back, not apologize or say he's sorry for calling Alex Pretti --

TAPPER: An assassin.

ZELENY: -- a would-be assassin.

TAPPER: Yes.

ZELENY: But it's extraordinary that he's marking his words and blaming it on a memo, effectively throwing the CBP under the bus. But, again, the question is we've seen a huge change in rhetoric from the White House.

A little softened, slightly sharper again, but overall it's been a change in tone. But the question is the policy. Will the policy on the ground change? So what Priscilla was just saying, if the agents or if some of the agents actually leave Minneapolis, that will be one thing.

But if the policy and things on the ground stay the same, this rhetoric shifting really does not mean much except trying to solve a political crisis, which clearly there is one.

TAPPER: Yes, Trump is trying to signal on occasion a shift in tone, although he tends to reverse that.

ZELENY: It's not a straight line.

TAPPER: No, he tells Jacob Frey he's playing with fire. He makes light of Ilhan Omar being attacked. I mean, I don't want to give him too much credit there, but here's what he had to say to "Fox" yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, we have Tom Holman there now. We put him in there. He's great. We're going to deescalate a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this a pullback?

TRUMP: I don't think it's a pullback. It's a little bit of a change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And then, as I said, after Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said he's not going to enforce federal laws, that's not what Minneapolis police are there to do, he posts on social media, could somebody in his inner sanctum please explain that this statement is a very serious violation of the law and that he is playing with fire. That doesn't really seem to be very de-escalatory.

[17:50:06]

ALVAREZ: Well, also it's true that local law enforcement does not enforce immigration law. That is strictly within the rights of federal law enforcement. Now, as far as the -- the thing that the administration has been hung up on for many, many months and certainly from the first Trump administration is the sanctuary cities. There is no clear definition as to what it means, but generally it's a limit between the way local law enforcement and federal immigration enforcement work together.

The problem with how things have unfolded in Minneapolis is that it has sowed additional distrust between local law enforcement and federal law enforcement and that is going to require some rebuilding, which appears to be what Tom Homan has been trying to do and at least have the conversations there on the ground. But the other reality for the President is that to execute his mass deportation campaign, the tactics that the administration has used and certainly wants to use, if you look at Stephen Miller, is aggressive and does require these broad immigration sweeps just to even meet the daily quotas that they want to meet of 3,000 a day. And so that is -- what the President is saying is in conflict with what the behind-the- scenes directives have been, which has led to all the chaos that has unfolded in multiple cities.

TAPPER: Jeff, let's turn to Capitol Hill, because Senator Thom Tillis, Republican in North Carolina, was on the show just a few minutes ago talking about how incompetent he thinks Kristi Noem is, how she shouldn't have her job anymore. Lisa Murkowski, the senator from Alaska, Republican, also said something similar. But most Republicans are still following Trump off the cliff here on this issue that is, he's underwater when it comes to polling. Take a listen to Hawley and Cassidy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): He'll decide who he wants to be leading this. I defer to him. I mean, it's really his cabinet.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): The most important thing is whether the President will trust her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You know, what's interesting about Cassidy there is that he's up for reelection, and he has already broken with President Trump on a couple -- well, he voted to convict him in the second impeachment. But, again, like, I don't know what he would have to be happening for most of the Republicans in the Senate to actually say what they really think.

ZELENY: Look, he has to win a Republican primary as well, so it's clear that he's going to --

TAPPER: But Trump's already backing his opponent.

ZELENY: Right, but he needs some of those Republican voters. But I think what I'm most struck by is the fact that we've seen some House members and others saying that this policy needs to change. Even the majority leader of the Senate said there needs to be an independent investigation.

So, look, the Senate is not going to, Republicans in the Senate have made very clear that they have effectively given their oversight authority back to the White House. They've effectively said, OK, you can do whatever you want. But I do think that this feels slightly different in terms of the policy of ICE. We'll find out on the funding, because that now is a central challenge here, the funding bill that's going through.

But even if the government does shut down partially, ICE is still fully, fully funded because of so much money from the one big, beautiful bill last summer.

TAPPER: All right, Priscilla Alvarez and Jeff Zeleny, thanks to both of you.

Breaking news in our National Lead, right now in Texas, Democratic Congress members are calling on the Department of Homeland Security to immediately release Liam Conejo Ramos. Liam, as you might recall, he's that five-year-old boy who, along with his father, Adrian, was taken from his family's suburban Minneapolis driveway last week and flown to an ICE detention facility in South Texas. The family had applied for asylum and was working with local authorities, but they were taken anyway.

CNN's Ed Lavandera in San Antonio where Congressman Joaquin Castro and others are speaking. And Ed, earlier today, Congressman Castro was in Dilley, Texas to meet with Liam and his father. What did the congressman have to say about the visit?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jake. Well, to kind of explain some of the noise you're hearing behind me, Representative Joaquin Castro and Representative Jasmine Crockett were holding a briefing in a press conference here describing what they had seen this afternoon at the Dilley Center.

There's a counter-protester out here trying to crash the press conference that was being held on the steps of City Hall here in downtown San Antonio. But Congressman Castro and his staff, as well as Congressman Crockett's staff, told me that they spent more than three hours inside that detention facility about an hour south of San Antonio meeting with young Liam and his father, as well as hundreds of other detainees inside that facility who they say describe very harsh conditions that they're living under. And this is some of what Congressman Castro said just a short while ago here in San Antonio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): Liam Ramos should be released immediately. You can see from the picture that I posted that he was lying in his father's arms. His father said that Liam has been very depressed since he's been at Dilley, that he hasn't been eating well.

I was concerned with, you see how he appears in that photo with his energy. He seemed lethargic. He said, his father said, that Liam has been sleeping a lot, that he's been asking about his family, his mom, and his classmates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:55:11]

LAVANDERA: Security Secretary Kristi Noem. So that is the latest we have here, which has been a very chaotic day, not only what you're seeing unfolding here, but also the protests that were unfolding outside of the detention facility as several hundred protesters gathered outside of the entrance into this facility and were pushed away with tear gas in an intense confrontation with state troopers who showed up to guard the entrance there to the detention facility as well. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Ed Lavandera, thanks so much.

Coming up, how the actions of federal agents in Minneapolis have unified leaders in other U.S. cities against the Trump administration. But we're going to talk to the Republican mayor of one of those cities about what's going on in his hometown in the next hour. Stay with us.

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[18:00:05]

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the two officers involved in that fatal shooting of --