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The Lead with Jake Tapper

DOJ Releases What It Says Is Last Tranche Of Epstein Files; Protests Grow Across U.S. In Response To Trump Admin Immigration Crackdown; Deputy AG: Not Surprising That DNI Gabbard Was At GA Raid; Trump Nominated Kevin Warsh To Succeed Powell As Fed Chairman; Federal Indictment Unsealed In Case Against Don Lemon. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired January 30, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:21]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. There are Friday news dumps and then there Friday as news dumps, plural, many times over. We're following breaking news on a number of fronts.

There are new Epstein files and new unverified sexual assault allegations that list President Trump and former President Bill Clinton. Some Epstein survivors say their names are unredacted in the new files and the Justice Department claims there is no actual list of abusers to prosecute.

Also breaking, former CNN anchor Don Lemon appears appearing in federal court this hour. Lemon is one of two journalists arrested for being a protest that interrupted a church service in the Twin Cities. The charges setting off a major First Amendment debate.

And breaking here in D.C., new questions about why the director of national intelligence Tulsi Gabbard was at this week's FBI raid on an election office in Fulton County, Georgia. Gabbard well, she was set to appear just hours ago at a conference of top elections officials. She canceled.

A state official who was there is headed to our studio now. And as if that isn't enough, the world learned that actress Catherine O'Hara has died. She starred, of course, in "Home Alone," "Beetlejuice," "Schitt's Creek." We're going to get to all of this, but we begin with our Lead and Justice Lead.

The Justice Department today releasing millions of pages of documents in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation files. CNN reviewing those files, poring over them. And among them appear to be so called 302 Form which are written documentation of interviews the government has conducted. Now this is significant because several survivors have told CNN they

have been desperate to find information they reported to the FBI about Epstein's crimes, wondering whether they were ever acted upon. Some of the revelations and allegations in these forums they are quite disturbing, including that an underage victim told the FBI, Epstein sexually abused her after she confided in him about being previously molested as a young child.

But today, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche poured cold water on the idea that the files contain information on potential conspirators or associates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't know whether there are men out there that abuse these women. If we learn about information and evidence that allows us to prosecute them, you better believe we will. But I don't think that the public or you all are going to uncover men within the Epstein files that abuse women. Unfortunately,

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Blanche also denied the Justice Department would try to protect President Trump in all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLANCHE: We complied with the statute. We complied with the act, and there is no -- we did not protect President Trump. We didn't protect or not protect anybody. I mean, I think that we -- that there's a hunger or a thirst for information that I do not think will be satisfied by the review of these documents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: We start things off with CNN's MJ Lee, who is here, has really been leading our coverage, particularly on issues related to the survivors. MJ, as you pour over this new large number of documents with our teams, what stands out to you?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL ENTERPRISE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's hard to know where to begin just given the sheer volume. Millions and millions of pages of documents, Thousands of videos, 180,000 images, lots of redactions, and a lot of things that remain completely out of context.

But, Phil, as you know, there has been a lot of interest in how Donald Trump has been appearing in these files. And in this latest batch, we do see his name in a lot of different contexts. You know, the sound that you played from the Todd Blanch press conference where he was asked about the president and he really sort of defended the DOJ's work on that front, saying we didn't do anything to protect him.

There's one document that I thought was noteworthy because it showed internal discussions going back to last summer inside Trump's DOJ, where they basically compiled a list of allegations of sexual assault that have been made against Trump via an FBI tip line.

Now, we are not going to go into them because many of these are simply unverified claims, but these officials went as far as to actually color code these claims, saying that yellow would be for the more salacious claims. Some of these claims we saw were actually followed up on. Others were not followed up on either because they couldn't or we don't know why exactly they didn't. And some of them were deemed as simply not credible.

We don't know also why these DOJ officials decided to compile this list.

[17:05:00]

But I mention this as an example of the fact that there were at least some internal discussions that were had about Trump specifically, who, again, you know, we should make clear he has not been accused of any specific wrongdoing related to Epstein. He himself has said this whole thing is a hoax, but the politics there remain nonetheless.

MATTINGLY: Yes, no question about that. You've done a lot of really important reporting talking to survivors about redactions or in many cases, lack thereof in prior releases. Are there issues this time around on that front, too?

LEE: Lots and lots of issues. You know, the law clearly lays out all of the different kinds of documents and images that cannot be released to the public, including identifying information about victims and survivors. And I've heard from multiple people throughout today who say I am seeing my name throughout these documents, just like last time, including from certain Jane Does.

You know, there's one Jane Doe who told me that her name is in email exchanges that she had years ago with Jeffrey Epstein. And her lawyer has previously tried to reach out to the DOJ to say this is a mistake and needs to be corrected, but the lawyer never heard back.

Now, in terms of just the information quickly that I want to mention that the survivors are really looking into, look into the 302. These are the documents that are basically written records of when the FBI interviews witnesses about certain things, in this case about Epstein's actions and wrongdoings.

And this is information that a lot of the victims and survivors have been curious about and they've wondered for so long, in some cases, did what I told the FBI back then, did it go anywhere? Is there a written record of it? Of course, a lot of it is heavily redacted. So I don't know how much information they'll actually be able to see, but just a reminder that so many of them are poring through these documents looking for some kind of validation.

MATTINGLY: Yes, when people talk about the politics, they that's the part that matters. You've covered it better than anyone. MJ Lee, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Well, joining us now is Liz Stein. She is an Epstein survivor. And Liz, we've spoken before and I think it started the same way last time, which is with all the focus on. On individual documents or what it all means. Just to start, how are you doing?

LIZ STEIN, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: I always appreciate when you ask that, so thank you. You know, we are digesting this while everyone else is digesting this. And so if you think that you're overwhelmed, imagine how emotional it is for us to sift through this. But it's something that we feel is really necessary. And so we're willing to sit in this discomfort as this all unfolds.

MATTINGLY: And it's been remarkable the strength that you guys have demonstrated repeatedly over the course of many months, many years when you go back to the origins of these stories, Bradley Edwards, who's an attorney who represented dozens of Epstein victims, released a statement accusing the Justice Department of violating the trust of survivors, saying, quote, the department has been in possession of a comprehensive list of victims of Jeffrey Epstein for months. In that time, they have spoken directly with several terrified women who they promise to protect through a fulsome redaction process. Their complete and utter failure to do so would lead any reasonable person to believe that these violations are no mistake.

What's your response first to that statement and then did any of the misredactions impact you directly?

STEIN: Well, I would agree with that statement. And we just heard MJ speak about this. Right? We are hearing that there are survivors who, again, in this document dump, have not been protected. And what is even more concerning than that is the survivors who have tried to protect their anonymity and really remain Jane Does.

And I think that those survivors in particular have good reason to want to protect their privacy. And so it feels very intentional, particularly when the DOJ has been notified about some of these names that should be redacted and we're seeing them again. It feels very intentional on their part.

You know, I think the entire release of these documents and the confusion surrounding them is very intentional because I think that, you know, they're trying to deflect us from what actually happened by, you know, giving us millions of documents to sift through and try to piece together.

MATTINGLY: It is unacceptable. It is the lowest bar to clear in this process from the government to properly implement the redactions that are requested by people who deserve so much more than just that.

But at the bare minimum that, you know, one of the things MJ was also just talking about, the three or two forms, which are written documentation of interviews the government has conducted sometimes with survivors. It's something we've heard repeatedly over the course of the last several months. For people who want to know what happened after they went to law enforcement, there are some forms included in this release.

[17:10:00] What do you think the significance is of them?

STEIN: We know better than anyone else what happened to us. We know who we told. We know the circumstances that surround that. And so a lot of survivors have been frustrated because they have made individual requests to get their 302s for just those reasons.

And, you know, I think in all of this, it's going to be really curious as we sift through things to see what is there and what is not there in terms of what we've reported. I really don't have a lot of confidence that the DOJ has handled this in the way that it needs to be handled.

And, you know, at the press conference earlier, Todd Blanche said something about if the survivors are frustrated by this process, I'm frustrated by it, too. And that really struck me. It's like, well, you are the Department of Justice. It is your job to find justice for victims of crime. And we are victims of the crime of sex trafficking. So I'm sorry that they're frustrated with this, but we need justice for the crimes that were committed against us.

And also to hear him comment that there is no trove of men was really invalidating because men have been named before. And I think even just about the number of men that Virginia Giuffre disclosed is more than three dozen, I think.

So survivors have given names have been published. And to hear that there's no trove of men is just, I feel like, you know, the Justice Department is trying to gaslight our country about what actually.

MATTINGLY: No, it was certainly a kind of disconnect moment when it was said. And I have no doubt for anybody who thinks that they're closing the book on this issue right now, the survivors have proven over and over and over again that won't be the case. And it's been one of the most remarkable stories, particularly over the course of the last year or so. But for the entirety of this horror that they've had to live through. Liz Stein, I'm really grateful for your time. Thanks so much.

STEIN: Thanks, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Well, also breaking this hour, protests in multiple cities against President Trump's immigration crackdown. The epicenter of these demonstrations, Minneapolis. We'll go there live.

Plus, former CNN anchor Don Lemon in court after his overnight arrest. What we're learning about the federal charges against him and fears his arrest amounts to an attack on the First Amendment. Stay with us.

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[17:16:44]

MATTINGLY: We're back with the breaking news and our National Lead, a coordinated national shutdown protesting President Trump's immigration crackdown, Minneapolis, Atlanta, New York, Phoenix and L A. Demonstrators in several cities encouraging people to avoid shopping or walk out of schools and jobs in protests.

I want to get straight to CNN Shimon Prokupecz, who's on the ground in Minnesota. Shimon, tell us what you've been seeing and hearing all day.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Phil, it's just been incredible to watch. We've had tens of thousands of people marching through the streets of Minneapolis. It's freezing out here. You know, it's probably about 5 degrees at this point. But they've all now come to this area here, a park, and you could see just everyone here. Most of the people are now just with signs out here and they've been marching through this entire area and you could see them all. Now, you know, we're hearing chants of ICE out.

And, you know, Phil, I think what this really represents is a time for people to truly just get together. Minneapolis and Minnesota has been through so much living with such fear, and it's a moment for many of the people. Despite how cold it is, despite how hard it may be to talk, people really have been smiling here today.

I've been seeing a lot of smiles. I've been talking to people today who are saying it's important for them to be here because they need to support their neighbors, their neighbors who have been affected by this ICE and immigration policy and what has gone on here in the streets of Minneapolis.

And so they really felt it despite the cold, despite how, you know, the fear that many of them have been living with, that it was time for them to come together. And what's so remarkable about this is that we're seeing all kinds of people here. You know, you have young people, you have old people. It's really just different. There have been other anti-ICE protests, and a crowd like this, large crowd like this, I've certainly not seen at any other protest.

So, you could tell just by being here, and I've been here for the last week, how much this community has been affected by what has been happening here. But also, Phil, they really want to come together and really show their support for their neighbors, for what they've all been through, and show that they stand with them.

MATTINGLY: Shimon Prokupecz, and I should note for context, Shimon has been on the ground covering every single side of protests and law enforcement actions for many, many years. And so what he says on this and how he's framing it is really important to consider. He's been a remarkable work all week. Shimon, thanks so much.

I want to bring in now Minnesota's Lieutenant Governor, Peggy Flanagan. Lieutenant Governor, really appreciate your time. Just to start with kind of the bigger picture right now, given the shifting message we saw from the White House, from the administration, that maybe the pendulum is swinging back. We're all trying to get a sense of things. A reporter asked the President if he plans on pulling federal agents out of Minneapolis. This is what he said. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you be pulling back immigration enforcement agents out in Minnesota?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We will keep our country safe. We'll do whatever we can to keep our country safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you're not pulling back?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:20:00]

MATTINGLY: There's talk of drawdowns, there's talk of taking the temperature down. What's the reality right now, in your view?

LT. GOV. PEGGY FLANAGAN (D) MINNESOTA: I mean, the reality is that, you know, they're, I think they're playing musical chairs with Bovino and Holman and Kristi Noem. But as you heard directly from, you know, the president, that doesn't seem to be his plan.

You know, what we see here right now and why there are tens of thousands of people marching in the streets is that the chaos and the fear and the violence that ICE agents are inflicting on our community continues, I mean, even just on Monday and Tuesday of next week.

My kid has -- schools are closed for those two days while the district can figure out how to offer distance learning to families across the district because we have to protect our children from federal agents. How outrageous is that?

And so the spirit of Minnesota inspires me in this moment. As you can see, there's, you know, 5 degree temperatures here. And last weekend, you know, tens of thousands of folks marched through downtown Minneapolis. It was negative 15 because we care about each other and we're going to show up for our neighbors and we're going to stand outside schools and daycares and places of worship.

But I'd also just add this morning, this morning we had reports of, you know, your former colleague at CNN, Don Lemon, being arrested as a journalist. That is chilling when it comes to our First Amendment rights. And independent journalist, Georgia Forbes, who has just been an incredible reporter here on the grounds and in the community, was detained this morning and her children saw her hauled off by federal agents. They since have been released, thank God.

But like, this is our democracy on the line and what is happening in Minnesota, you know, can come to your town and we have to do everything we can to lift our voices to stop it.

MATTINGLY: You know, two -- the last point you were making, which I wanted to ask you about, has there been any information from the Justice Department, from the administration, about either beforehand or in the wake of the arrests of these two independent journalists?

FLANAGAN: Not that I know of specifically, but what I can tell you is we are, you know, seeing other, you know, outlets, media outlets speaking out in this moment. Right? Minnesota Public Radio, the Star Tribune, the Spokesman Recorder, the Minnesota Reformer. Everyone is aligned in their horror of journalists being arrested for simply, you know, doing their job. This is chilling.

And a free and fair press is key to holding a democracy. So that combined with, you know, the rhetoric coming from the president, that's why people are out in the streets today. We see this in real time what's happening. And we have to continue to push back and raise our voices and also tell, you know, Congress and the Senate not one more dime should go to this agency right now.

MATTINGLY: Minnesota Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, really appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

FLANAGAN: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: We're going to continue to monitor these scenes as we see more of these protests tonight popping up in several U.S. cities. Also ahead, that FBI raid on an election office in Georgia collecting ballots from all the way back in the 2020 election. Are election officials in other states expecting the same? One top official will join me here in studio, next.

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[17:28:11]

MATTINGLY: Well, also in the Law and Justice Lead, we're standing by to see how officials in Fulton County, Georgia, respond to an FBI raid on an election office near Atlanta this week. They see some 700 boxes of 2020 ballots and election materials. Why, more than five years later and probably more curiously, why was the DNI, Tulsi Gabbard, actually at the raid?

Well, today Todd Blanche, the number two at the Justice Department, said he couldn't speak directly about the investigation, but did offer this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLANCHE: Election integrity is extraordinarily important to this administration, always has been and always will be. She doesn't work for the Department of Justice or the FBI. She's an extraordinarily important part administration. This administration coordinates everything we do as a group.

The fact that she was present in Atlanta that day, you know, is something that shouldn't surprise anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: I want to bring in a unique voice on this, Adrian Fontes. He's the Arizona secretary of state. In other place where ballots were closely scrutinized after the 2020 election. I really appreciate your time in coming into studio and putting aside as the deputy attorney general talks about close coordination when the DNI wasn't by all accounts involved in the actual extraction of a foreign leader in Venezuela. Coordination, not necessarily across the board.

What was your response when you saw what happened down in Atlanta? Is that something you think is inevitably coming to your neck of the woods as well?

ADRIAN FONTES (D) ARIZONA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, first, thanks for having me. And second, I wasn't really surprised or shocked. We've been gaining out what's been looking like a plan to for the administration to do these sorts of things. It's unfortunate, you know, that the president can't just get over his 2020 loss and move on. I mean, he's won in 2024. What more could you ask for?

[17:30:00]

And I think it sends a bad message, frankly, to the kids of America. Like, if you lose a game, you got to keep litigating it over and over and over again. Look, 2020 is over. The dust has settled. The cases have been proven. This is just a waste of time and energy.

I think what we should be doing is looking at 2026, looking at ways to better help voters actually secure our elections, give voters more access, and do the things that we're proposing, for example, to do in Arizona with our Voters First Act. You know, expand early voting through 5:00 p.m. on Election Day. Actually fund our I.T. security protocols so that we can have secure databases.

Make the permanent early vote list come back so that voters can vote the way they want. This is what voters want. They want election administrators to be able to push forward and get the job done for them so that they can make their decision. We're spending too much time working about candidates and candidate grievances. We should be worrying about the American voter first.

MATTINGLY: What's your sense of the pathway forward for that? You've been working on that legislation. There is a Democratic governor. There's a Republican legislature. Is there a path to being signed into law that's guiding the elections from here going forward?

FONTES: Well, there's a reason we have 10 specific items, some of which I discussed, and there's others in the bill. Some of them are a little bit forward-leaning, I think, and that's great for voters. But given all of those 10 different items, again, I mentioned some of them, I think there's space for common agreement. For example, one of the things that we want to do is continuously be able to access and tabulate those ballots that are achieved -- received on Election Day through Election Day.

That's not permitted by law in Arizona right now. Folks gripe that they want earlier results. Well, guess what? This will help give us earlier results. So there's some stuff I think that folks can really come to agree on. Some of the funding issues, for example, getting permanent funding for ERIC, the participation in the ERIC program, that is the one single best way that we can make sure that we maintain accurate voter rolls in America. And I think we should continue to make those kinds of pitches on those specific items. Really, this contrasts what we've seen, which is anti-voter legislation in Arizona with pro-voter legislation. And so we're hoping to have a robust discussion on that.

MATTINGLY: It's interesting to hear your perspective, especially if you're talking to some of the Fulton County officials yesterday, of you had a lot on your plate. You're focused on a lot of things, and 2026 is the most important election that you're thinking about right now. But if federal officials show up in Maricopa, which was the county I feel like I stood at a magic wall pointing to over and over and over again for that entire week, you talk about how you guys have been thinking through or kind of game-planning out. What is the recourse? What are the actions you're taking?

FONTES: Well, look, when news of Fulton County broke, I talked to folks in my office. I talked to some elections officials in Maricopa County. And we're looking very carefully, not at this just possible scenario, making sure that we've got clear communication between my office as the chief election officer in Arizona and their offices as well. Look, it's just good coordination between different units like I did when I was in the Marine Corps.

You've got to have that communication up front and build those relationships so that when things happen, if God forbid they do, we can deal with them. We're not just dealing with them. We're working directly with the attorney general and the governor and county officials. And we're talking specifically with a lot of these folks about what happens if this goes down, if that goes down. Sort of gaming things out to be prepared.

But again, let me be really clear. A lot of the interference that we're seeing from the federal government into election administration with the executive order, with the reduction of CISA support, those are just some concerns we have in a bucket over here. We've got several other buckets that we always and still have to deal with. What happens if a polling place burns down, which has happened to us? What happens if the church lady doesn't show up with the keys on Election Day morning? Or if a polling place gets foreclosed on, which has happened under my administration in Maricopa County.

I was going to go down with a sledgehammer and bang open the door, but the sheriff thought it was a bad idea. So, you know, we're dealing with these things the way we need to deal with them. And that is possible bad outcomes, possible bad circumstances, whether it's weather, which we have weathered, whether it's some kind of natural disaster, some kind of man-made thing.

The bottom line is this, and here's what I want people to understand and really, really get to know. We've never canceled an election in this country. We've had civil wars. We've had pandemics. We had the Spanish flu, World War II. We've experienced all kinds of bad things, including, for example, the fires that were so destructive in Lahaina.

In that instance, Hawaiian officials went out and looked for voters to get them to be able to vote. This is the one thing that makes America really unique, and that is that we never cancel an election. We don't do snap elections. We don't jimmy around with dates. We do and we're dependable at that.

[17:35:06]

And in that way we have sort of this golden thread that runs through the fabric of all of our society, and that is our elections. We can depend on that. So in times of uncertainty, you look to elections officials, you look to the folks who support elections officials at the local, state, and federal level. You look at the folks who fund elections, and you've got to say, this is the one thing we can agree on.

Pick your candidate, right, and do the politics, but we've got to have our elections, and we've got to depend on them, and we've got to support them because if you pull that golden thread out, the fabric of our society will disintegrate, and nobody wants that.

MATTINGLY: Yes. I certainly learned. Not something to be taken for granted anymore.

FONTES: You bet.

MATTINGLY: Adrian Fontes, really appreciate you coming in, and braving the cold in Washington, D.C.

FONTES: Yes. It is cold here. Colder than Phoenix, that's for sure.

MATTINGLY: Yes, I bet. Thank you so much.

FONTES: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: I appreciate it.

Well, it's just in. We are learning former CNN anchor Don Lemon is just minutes away from appearing before a judge after his arrest overnight. We're going to continue to monitor that story.

Plus, the person President Trump wants to replace, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell, and why Trump is so confident he's going to get what he wants out of his picks. Stay with us.

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[17:40:35]

MATTINGLY: President Trump is nominating Kevin Warsh, a 55-year-old former Fed Governor, to succeed Jerome Powell as Federal Reserve Chairman. It ends, you could probably call it a made-for-T.V.-like search process, very on-brand for the President. One that started in September as he whittled down the candidate list.

Now, what if Trump's top critiques of Powell not lowering interest rates quickly enough? Something it appeared Fed -- Warsh was inclined to do, but he also has a history from his time at the Fed as an inflation hawk. Joining me now to try and explain what this all means, Princeton Economics Professor Alan Blinder. He served as Vice Chair of the Federal Reserve. And I have to acknowledge, monetary and fiscal history of the United States, 1961 to '20, I want to say 2021, is dog-eared and highlighted in my office, and a little worse for the wear right now. So I want to disclose that up front and promise not to go too far down that level of depth. But I do want to ask --

ALAN BLINDER, FORMER VICE CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD: I promise. Thank you very much.

MATTINGLY: I do want to ask, you know, you raised concerns, I think wrote a "Wall Street Journal" op-ed before the President took office about the importance of independence, hoping that the President would maintain the independence or try to. Do you think Kevin Warsh accepted this job without any commitments to lower rates to the President explicitly?

BLINDER: Well, I'm worried about that. I think on this criterion of Federal Reserve independence, among the finalists, if I may call them that, he's probably about the best that we could have hoped for. So I'm pleased with that. I think we all know that President Trump demands things of people, demands loyalty of people before he appoints them.

What the private conversations were between Kevin Warsh and Donald Trump, I wouldn't know. I'm a little bit worried about it. Not because of Walsh, but because of Trump.

MATTINGLY: When it comes to Walsh specifically, you didn't overlap with him at the Fed, but, you know, he's in circles that I think you, I, as somebody who's covered this space, have been around for the better part of the last couple of decades. What is the reputation? Tell people what they should know about how he was at the Fed and what expectations should be.

BLINDER: Well, two things I would say. First, if you go back to the Bernanke era, which is when he was a governor, he was kind of informally the liaison between the Fed and Wall Street. Kevin had worked on Wall Street. He knew people there. Ben Bernanke had been an academic. He really didn't know people there. And he was extremely helpful, and Ben Bernanke said so, in kind of informally liaison -- liaising with Wall Street.

The other thing, now, that's history. The thing that's more relevant now is that he has a history of being, in the vernacular that gets used, a hawk, which means a little tougher on inflation and maybe softer on unemployment than the doves who were the reverse. You can be a reasonable hawk and a reasonable dove.

People do disagree. He's definitely in the reasonable hawk, historically, is in the reasonable hawk criteria. But lately, he's turned dovish, and a number of people wonder if that was part of a campaign to get the job.

MATTINGLY: It has been. Trying to watch markets figure out which one he is in the current moment has been interesting to watch throughout the course of today in the reaction. Just real quick before I let you go, do you think he should be confirmed?

BLINDER: Oh, yes. Look, relative to anyone else that might have been actually nominated by Donald Trump, he's a shining star. Yes, absolutely, he should be confirmed. Jay Powell is still the head of the Federal Reserve until May, so there's no big rush to get it done. But yes, he merits confirmation for sure.

MATTINGLY: Professor Alan Blinder, I think the control room will acknowledge and vouch that I could do this for another several hours. I'm really grateful for your time. I'm sure we'll be doing this in the weeks ahead as we move towards that confirmation process. Alan Blinder, thanks so much.

BLINDER: Thank you.

[17:44:56]

MATTINGLY: Well, former CNN anchor Don Lemon is due to face a federal judge in just moments. The indictment just unsealed. We're standing by to learn more as the hearing plays out. Much more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Breaking in our Law and Justice Lead, independent journalist and former CNN anchor Don Lemon is in federal court in Los Angeles. Overnight, agents arrested Lemon, as well as independent Minnesota journalist Georgia Fort. The two were reported at an ICE -- anti-ICE protest that interrupted a church service in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Now, according to a law enforcement source, more than two dozen federal agents were involved in Lemon's overnight arrest. And here's Attorney General Pam Bondi today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:50:02]

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Under President Trump's leadership and this administration, you have the right to worship freely and safely. And if I haven't been clear already, if you violate that sacred right, we are coming after you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, CNN obtained the indictment where prosecutors claim that Lemon met with other co-defendants prior to the event for a pre- operation briefing, and that he tried to keep parts of the operation secret, including by reminding others not to reveal certain information ahead of the protest.

Last week, a federal magistrate judge rejected the Justice Department's initial attempt to bring charges against Lemon. Then, another federal judge rejected an appeal.

Here now, former DOJ Public Affairs Director Xochitl Hinojosa and former Trump White House lawyer Jim Schultz. Georgia Schultz has been or Georgia Fort has been released from custody. Both she and Don Lemon are charged with two federal counts of conspiracy and interfering with First Amendment rights of worshipers. I want to show people some of the video from Don at the church.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: I'm just here, I'm not -- I'm just here photographing. I'm not a part of the group, I'm just here photographing. I'm a journalist. We don't know, that's what they're saying. So we're here just chronicling and reporting. We're not part of the activists, but we're here just reporting on them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: You work in the Justice Department Office of Public Affairs. How did you respond when you heard about this?

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, some of the charges that they are using and the act that they're using is the FACE Act, and we know the FACE Act because we've used it when there are firebombs at churches and impeding on someone's right to worship, and as rightfully, the Justice Department should prosecute when it comes to that. But if you see in the video, he does make clear that he is a journalist, and he is just there to video. He is not trying to interfere with anyone's right to worship, which is not surprising that a magistrate judge would not sign off on those charges.

In addition, the indictment is only signed by political appointees. It is not signed by career professionals and AUSAs as it normally would. What we're hearing from California, the Central District of California, where these charges are being brought, is that there's turmoil within the U.S. Attorney's Office because career officials did not want to sign off on that.

And then just lastly on all of this, there is a First Amendment right, you know, violation. He is a reporter. We also know that the Justice Department took steps earlier this year in order to roll back protections Merrick Garland put in place so something like this wouldn't happen. So you wouldn't necessarily arrest a reporter for reporting, or like "The Washington Post" reporter a few weeks ago who had their house raided. You wouldn't be able to subpoena them and do a search in their home just for their sources.

So we knew Pam Bondi was rolling back those rights for reporters but now we're seeing it in action, them actually going after reporters.

MATTINGLY: You know, Jim, look, I go to church every Sunday. I wouldn't be a huge fan of this happening in where I practice my faith. But I also, in reading what CNN reported from the court's arguments, what was described as reporting, like it's source protection, it's how you do things. What's your read on this?

JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: So 18 USC 241 says that you cannot -- two people cannot conspire -- two or more people cannot conspire to intimidate or prevent, in an effort to prevent worship at the end of the day, exercising your constitutional rights, in this case, worship. So, you know, in this particular instance was he part of the conspiracy? Was he part of the planning? Was he part of the, you know, of what happened there in terms of impeding folks' right to worship?

Those are the questions that need to be asked. And, you know, the fact that he says, oh, I'm just a photographer, taking photographs and chronicling this isn't necessarily dispositive of that issue. It's going to be what did he do while he was there? Did he have interaction with the worshippers? What did he -- what were his interactions with the worshippers? All of those questions need to be answered.

And, of course, they're going to file a motion to dismiss based upon his, you know, on the freedom of press issue. And I think that's --

MATTINGLY: Do you think it succeeds?

SCHULTZ: Look, I think the courts give wide, you know, wide discretion for reporters to do their jobs. I think it's going to be something that's going to find its way into the appellate courts, and depending on which appeals corporate lands in, I think this one lands in the 8th Circuit, which in the 8th Circuit, it's a pretty conservative district. While you have Minnesota in that district, you also have Iowa, the Dakotas, Missouri, Arkansas. Those are pretty conservative districts in terms of circuit courts.

HINOJOSA: And also, I will just say, the problem the administration faces is that there have been ICE agents that have also entered places of worship, in particular in Charlotte. And there's been reporting about this, is they're not only going outside of schools and outside a place of worship, but they're actually going in. So I think that one big question for the administration is, protesters going into a place of worship, how is that different from ICE scaring people inside a place of worship?

And actually, there have been many pastors who have said, if you are an undocumented immigrant, you are excused from coming to church because, yes, we understand that it could be a risk that you could be picked up by ICE.

MATTINGLY: What should people think, as we go into this, from your legal perspective?

SCHULTZ: From a policy perspective, I don't think anybody should go into church and interfere with worship. I don't care if it's ICE agents or, you know, protesters. I think protesters would have been fine if they just stayed on the steps. Don Lemon probably wouldn't be in the trouble he's in right now if he waited outside and interviewed people as they came outside.

[17:55:11]

But going into that church and having and engaging in conduct that interferes, people go to church for a lot of different reasons. They go to worship, but they also have some sanctuary. And when that's interfered with, you know, that's a crime. And if in this case there was conspiracy, that he was part of that conspiracy, that he did interfere with that, then he's likely to be convicted.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Look, again, I would not want to see that in my church. But I'm telling you, this is a gray area that is a slippery slope. People need to be cognizant of where this could head very, very quickly. Thank you guys both very much for sharing your perspective.

We'll wait to see if Don Lemon speaks outside court after the hearing. Plus, new revelations just this hour from the Epstein files released today. We told you there was a lot going on. We weren't kidding. We're back in a moment.

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[18:00:05]

MATTINGLY: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. This hour, an avalanche --