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The Lead with Jake Tapper

"The Lead" Follows the Latest Developments on the Disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 09, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thanks to my panel. I appreciate you all standing by with us for the hour. Thank you very much for that. Thanks to you at home for joining us, as well. We, of course, spent most of the hour covering the story that my colleague Jake Tapper is standing by to lead his show off. He is in Arizona in Tucson for "The Lead" where of course they are still desperately searching for Nancy Guthrie. Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Kasie. We'll look for you back in the arena tomorrow.

HUNT: See you tomorrow.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.

TAPPER: Welcome to "The Lead," I'm Jake Tapper and I'm live here in Tucson, Arizona. The lead tonight, a desperate plea for help from "Today" show anchor Savannah Guthrie, taking to social media just minutes ago as the search continues for her 84-year-old mother Nancy, who's been missing now for more than a week. Here is the message from Savannah Guthrie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. I just want to say first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow, someway, she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place.

We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help.

So, I'm coming on just to ask you not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation. And we need your help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The number of course if you see anything uh that you think law enforcement should know is 1-800-CALL-FBI. That's 1-800-CALL-FBI. That's (mic off) questions, continue to swirl about this ongoing investigation. Officials say that there remains no suspect or person of interest. Over the weekend, investigators were seen examining a septic tank near Nancy Guthrie's house and also visiting her daughter Annie's home. It's unclear what the reason for either of those searches were.

Purported ransom for $6 million in bitcoin is due at 5 P.M. today. It's unclear which time zone, whether East Coast and it just passed or Mountain Time here in Tucson, which is about just under two hours. According to the news station, KGUN, one of two local affiliates to receive those ransom letters last week.

TMZ also received the ransom letter and looked into the bitcoin account reference for payment and TMZ says that no deposits have been made into it as of this afternoon. Officials are still probing the authenticity of these ransom notes. They are taking them seriously.

As we begin today's broadcast, I do want to acknowledge why we're here in Arizona. Not just because this is a major developing story, but because millions of Americans, literally millions of Americans, love Savannah Guthrie and care about her. And we are here to cover this story with caution for the ongoing investigation and respect and dignity for the Guthrie family.

It is awful to have to report on anyone's pain. It is even more horrible when they are your friend. Savannah and her husband, Mike, are dear friends of mine and my wife's, and dear friends to many people in the journalism world.

This type of horror, of course, should never happen to anyone but we do ask for grace as we cover this happening to a friend. Here with me now is CNN's Ed Lavandera. Ed, you've been here now for days and the search has really consumed the entire Tucson area if not most of Arizona.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, obviously the main focus is in that area around, on the foothills, on the northern edge of Tucson where Nancy Guthrie lives. We've been there extensively since, you know, Monday actually, yes, Monday evening.

[17:05:00]

And since this is -- the story broke last week. And every day there's been ongoing continuing work, law enforcement activity that we're trying to kind of at this point just try to figure out what it all means if it's leading them any closer to finding her.

TAPPER: Yes, it does seem as though, it means that they're chasing every lead that they can possibly have in any possible theory of the case. I mean why would they be looking in Annie Guthrie's house and also looking in the septic tank? Well, probably for different reasons, for different theories.

LAVANDERA: Yes, we spoke with the sheriff several times this week and talks about, you know, it was interesting when we first started hearing about the ransom notes, you know, from the very beginning, they talked about this as if it was any other kind of tip. Like that's the way they didn't just say, oh, this is clearly what's happening here. It was just one of the many tips that they were getting. So, they've kind of gone down this avenue and clearly, the feds have taken that over.

TAPPER: Yes.

LAVANDERA: The FBI and hostage negotiating teams are the ones kind of managing all that. The sheriff told me when the -- when Savannah and her siblings put out the first video, that he had no idea that that was going to be posted until after it had been posted. So, clearly, that's something the feds are driving and then the local law enforcement really handling all of the tips that are coming in.

And we do know that they've called in all sorts of agencies here on the county level, the local level. So if there's a convenience store that needs to be checked out, they'll go do that. There's a sighting or something that they would need to go check out. And they've categorized them on different levels, like really good quality tips and then they have almost like a three-tiered system as to how they go and chase these things down.

TAPPER: All right. Ed Lavandera, thanks so much. Let's bring in CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, formerly of the NYPD and the FBI. John, what do you make of this new message and this new video from Savannah Guthrie? A very different message from the three previous ones, which were aimed at the kidnappers, this one was for the public. And also, this comes right as this deadline is scheduled to happen.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I mean, I think they are fighting the perceived idea that, well, people think, okay, they're in contact with the kidnappers. They are in some complex negotiation. A ransom may be paid. Their mom may be turned over. And that people have stepped back and might stop looking on the idea that this is unfolding in some way under its own power.

And what she's saying is, no, everybody needs to keep looking. As you point out, while they assess the authenticity of these ransom letters, what the status of Nancy Guthrie is, they don't want people to take their eye off the ball.

And she makes a really important point, which is, even if you're not near Tucson, if you hear something, see something, see something suspicious that could be connected to this, reach out because aside from the fact that there was about 12 hours from the time we believe she was taken to the time that was reported as she hadn't turned up missing at that point. And the fact that there's been much more time, a week's worth, since she's been under the control of whoever may have her, well that means she could have traveled a long distance. She could be in Nevada, she could be in Oklahoma, she could be in Colorado. She could be at a lot of places. So, the message for people all across the country to report whatever they see was really underlined in this.

This is about engaging the public, getting them to stay focused, and keeping them crowd-sourced because Jake, you know from everything we've seen in the last few weeks, one tip from the public can crack the whole case.

TAPPER: Yes, the shooting of the United Healthcare executive, they found Luigi Mangione in a McDonald's in Altoona because of crowd sourcing. They put out his image, same thing with the shooter of Charlie Kirk, where the images were put out there and the shooter's father thought he recognized him. Does this message suggest to you that law enforcement remains unsure that these ransom notes are real?

MILLER: I think it could signal that, but it could also signal while this ransom thing is coming together, if it is coming together. And these things can be highly uncertain. We don't want people to dial out of being that eagle-eyed person who sees something because they think, well, this is going to work itself out. They want everybody still engaged.

TAPPER: The purported ransom letter sent to the media last week had a 5 P.M. deadline today for the $6 million payment in bitcoin. It didn't say what time zone that is. If it was East Coast, then it just passed. If it's mountain time here in Tucson, it's still about an hour fifty. Do you think investigators are treating that deadline with the utmost significance given Savannah's latest video, or is it different than maybe it originally seemed?

[17:10:00]

MILLER: Well, we don't know, but let's assume that the time zone is Tucson because two out of the three communications in the first group were sent to television stations in Tucson. But what is the significance of the deadline? I wouldn't give that much significance in it. Remember that kidnapping for ransom is a business for money. Deadlines are set to keep the deal moving because kidnappers want it to unfold as quickly as possible, and then try to get out of it and get away with it.

The idea that the clock strikes five and if they're expecting to get a ransom payment that suddenly the deal's off, just means we don't understand kidnappers. If their motive is financial, the deadline can pass for any number of reasons -- logistics, communications. I don't want to say we shouldn't be concerned because there's nothing about this case that isn't concerning. But I wouldn't worry about that aspect as much.

TAPPER: Yes. Investigators this past weekend, we saw them searching inside the septic tank outside the home of the victim, Nancy Guthrie, but they were also seen Saturday night at the home of Nancy Guthrie's daughter Annie and her husband. How do you make sense of that are or are they just chasing down any possible lead, any possible theory?

MILLER: Well, both. I mean you know you had blood on the front steps. You know you have an 84 year old woman who was taken out of a home against her will in what appears to be a surprise attack with a level of violence attached to it. We also have these ransom letters but is that a distraction by someone who is trying to throw investigators off the trail from what was an abduction and murder?

Is that the fact that while they are investigating this kidnap angle, where else could she be? So, we've searched the property. We've searched the outskirts of the property, the neighborhood. Search team and the sheriff's search team searched the wide area. But then you sit down at that command center and you start to make a list.

Okay, how is the sewage handled? Is there a septic tank? How is the garbage handled? Where does it go? Who picks it up? You start to go through all of those possibilities and say, have we looked there yet? And if the answer is no, then you go and look there.

TAPPER: CNN's John Miller, thank you so much. And so, it seems that somebody out there, not just the kidnapper, but it is likely that somebody out there has seen something that is relevant to this case, has heard something that is relevant to this case.

And if you think that might be you, if you have any information about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, no matter how small you think it might be, how unimportant you think that information might be, something else you've heard about the case that makes you think that you're -- what you observed is wrong, call the Pima County Sheriff's Department at 520-351-4900 -- or you can call the FBI at 1-800-CALL- FBI. You can also reach out to the FBI at tips.fbi.gov.

Coming up here on "The Lead," a former here in Tucson who knows this area well, he's going to join me what he makes of the search so far and the new message just hours ago from Savannah Guthrie. And later, I'm going to talk to a lawmaker who got to see what was underneath those redactions in the Epstein files. Plus the audacious request today from Epstein's accomplice convicted sex trafficker, Ghislaine Maxwell. Stay with us.

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[17:17:52]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I'm coming on just to ask you not just for your prayers but no matter where you are even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: We're back with the breaking news. A brand new video released this afternoon today from "Today" show anchor Savannah Guthrie in the desperate search for her mother, Nancy Guthrie, who disappeared nine days ago. We're live in Tucson where the search is now into its second week. I want to bring in Benjamin Jimenez. He's a former homicide investigator with the Tucson Police Department.

Thanks so much for joining us. Let's start on the new video Savannah posted earlier this afternoon. She says that she believes her mom is still out there. She's asking for the public's help with tips. Does this work? Does Savannah coming on with a personal plea -- will that uh work with the citizens of Tucson and beyond? Or is this more of just another effort by law enforcement?

BENJAMIN JIMENEZ, FORMER TUCSON POLICE HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: I believe it's Tucson and beyond. It seems desperate to me at this point. I feel that perhaps the kidnapping portion of it may not be authentic. So, they're asking for all kinds of leads and it seems very desperate. It's such a horrible thing that they're going through as a family.

I can't imagine what they're going through. And it seems desperate to me that they're not. They don't want the public to give up because I don't know if they have a whole lot to go on. And there's -- of course, things working behind the scenes that we don't know of, but it just seems like dire at this point.

TAPPER: As you know, there are things that might be going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, but it also is possible, seems possible if not likely, that there aren't any serious leads nine days into this. As a former investigator with the Tucson police, is that uncommon?

[17:20:00]

I mean, how often does somebody disappear and nine days into it, you really still don't have any major leads?

JIMENEZ: Well, after nine days, things can seem to go cold, and that's why it's -- they're coming out with more information as to -- as for help, you know, for pleas of help. The case can go cold quickly. Usually within the first 48 hours, you know something really quick. And in this case, we haven't heard anything. There's been no proof of life. If she still is alive, I'm hopeful, I'm praying that she is. But I can't imagine that it's gone this long and there hasn't been some type of more information of this solid that's coming through.

TAPPER: We saw increased law enforcement activity over the weekend. Investigators looking inside the septic tank behind the home of the victim, Nancy Guthrie, searching the home of her daughter, Annie Guthrie, and her husband. What does that signal to you?

JIMENEZ: Well, they're not giving up. To me, it seems like they don't -- they may not have a whole lot, so they're trying to tie up any loose ends, any areas that they haven't checked, more searches, more, you know, going out to the home and seeing what else they can find as far as leads, if there's anything. They're doing everything that they can, law enforcement agencies that are involved. So, it tells me that they're not giving up and they're trying to check

every little possible avenue that they can possibly do to find out any leads, any information. I'm sure there's quite a few tips coming in, a lot of leads that they have to follow up on, things that are going on that we just don't know about. So, hopefully they're staying busy with that. And you know, you got to check all the boxes in these types of cases.

TAPPER: The Mexican border is about 60 or so miles away from here. How much do authorities in Arizona work with their counterpoint law enforcement investigators in Mexico when it comes to cases like this?

JIMENEZ: Well, I'm sure they've reached out. I'm sure that they have talked to the officials across the line and hopefully that they're involved. They may or may not be, I don't know. I know that the border patrol is involved and they're looking in certain areas, as well. I'm sure that if leads are coming in with the border patrol, they're following up on that.

And so, it's a multi-task force here. So, all the information is going into the central area and, and you know, whatever leads to go out from there. But I believe that they have been contacted and hopefully they're involved, as well.

TAPPER: Benjamin Jimenez, formerly of the Tucson Police Department. Thank you so much for your time and expertise, Sir.

One of the biggest headlines from the Savannah Guthrie video, she says, quote, "We believe our mom is still out there," unquote. A former FBI profiler is standing by the way in on this desperate stage of the investigation, next.

And a reminder, there's tip lines for any information that you might have about this case. You can call the Pima County Sheriff's Department right behind me at 520-351-4900. That's 520-351-4900. The FBI tip line is 1-800-CALL-FBI -- 1-800-CALL-FBI, and you can also leave a tip online at tips.fbi.gov. We'll be right back.

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[17:27:48]

TAPPER: And we're back -- we're back with our national lead live from Tucson. It has been nine days since 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie was last seen at her home here in Tucson, Arizona. At this hour, officials say they still do not have any major suspect. Candice DeLong is a former FBI profiler and joins us now.

Candice, Savannah posted a new video on social media this afternoon, not long ago, imploring the public to help find her mom, to send in any tips. What does that tell you about where this investigation stands at this hour?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, it is something that one might have expected a few days ago. But what spoke to me more about Savannah's post more than her words was her demeanor. I can't even imagine how fatigued and stressed the whole family must be. But combine the eight days that this has gone on and the way things are right now, it's getting to a point, and it was at a point actually several days ago, where this was extremely worrisome.

And one of the things that -- you know, I know a lot of people are picking apart her postings and saying, well, she, the tone is different or the words are different. What does this all mean? She's being very careful. Her mother's life may be at stake based on something that she says. So, she's being very, very careful. And as one of your previous guests mentioned, many --

(CROSSTALK)

DELONG: -- go ahead.

TAPPER: Keep going, keep, no, keep going.

DELONG: Many high profile crimes have been solved by someone seeing something, knowing about the case on the news, seeing something or hearing something on the radio and they make a connection, phone calls are made and there you go.

[17:30:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes. Most recently, the shooter of Charlie Kirk identified his own son from seeing the photographs. I want to play a portion of the video the family released on Saturday. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NANCY GUTHRIE'S DAUGHTER: We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As an FBI profiler, you specialize in criminal behavior. Did you get any sense from the video that they know who they're talking to in any way?

DELONG: Not necessarily that they know who they're talking to, but I do have a sense that they are talking with someone. And she chose her words very, very carefully. We want our mother home so we can celebrate. This is very valuable to us. She may -- there may be some code words in there that aren't apparent to me but might be apparent to someone else. That's what I think.

TAPPER: So this video released just not long ago, earlier this afternoon. This video is the first one that the family's put out there talking to the public. The three previous ones were about, were addressed to the kidnapper. Her new message is a plea to the public asking for tips. What do you make of that? Does that indicate, you think that, I don't know if it's surprising or not because I'm not an expert in kidnappings, but that they really, nine days into this, have no major leads? DELONG: If they do, they are really keeping it close to their vest. It does seem to me, based on history, it does seem to me that if they had a prime suspect, it would be wall to wall news with pictures and information. But we're not, as it happened in the Luigi Mangione case as it happened in the Charlie Kirk shooting, but we are not seeing that.

TAPPER: Yes. Former FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe said he has no doubt that the family's statement on Saturday was carefully honed and crafted with the help of the FBI. How did you interpret that family -- the family's message on Saturday, did you think, I mean, people seem to think that there was a more pessimistic subtext.

DELONG: I agree with that assessment. It seemed more -- I -- the word that comes to mind is resignation, but that's just what I thought of it. I'm -- that doesn't mean the family is resigned to the worst. I've never seen a kidnapping with this much publicity go on for this long. And there was recently, by recently, I mean within the last maybe two or three years, a very, very high profile ransom having to do with malware of some corporations or institutions with money demanding huge amount of Bitcoin. And it didn't work out so well for the bad guys.

TAPPER: Yes. Candice DeLong, thank you so much, as always. We're covering every angle of this tragedy, the search, live here from Tucson.

[17:33:54]

We're also monitoring new details on another big tragic story, the Epstein files. Today, lawmakers got their very first chance to see redacted material, including e-mails and text messages, plus the request from Epstein's notorious accomplice, convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, as she virtually appeared for a deposition behind closed doors today. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we're back in our National Lead, live from Tucson, Arizona, with a search for Nancy Guthrie, the mother of "NBC News" anchor Savannah Guthrie continues now to its ninth day.

We're also today following some big developments in another tragic story, this having to do with the Epstein investigation. Today, Epstein's convicted accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is in prison, appeared virtually before the House Oversight Committee. She pleaded The Fifth, refusing to answer any questions because the answers would incriminate her. Here is what a Democrat, then a Republican lawmaker had to say about that deposition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES WALKINSHAW (D-VA): What we did not get were any substantive answers to the questions that were asked that would advance our investigation to help us learn who were the other men involved in these crimes, to help us learn who were the others who knew about these crimes. REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Her attorney said, Maxwell didn't say, her attorney said that she would answer questions if she were granted clemency by the President.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By the -- President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So if that seems like a quid pro quo, maybe take a gander at this. The attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell posted this, "Some may not like what they hear, but the truth matters. For example, both President Trump and President Clinton are innocent of any wrongdoing. Ms. Maxwell alone can explain why, and the public is entitled to that explanation."

[17:40:02]

Joining us now is Liz Stein. She is a survivor of Epstein and Maxwell's sickening trafficking ring. Liz, thank you for being here. Before I ask you questions about your reaction and such, let me start how I always ask, how are you? This has got to be just excruciating to go through.

LIZ STEIN, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR ANTI-TRAFFICKING ADVOCATE: Yes, it really is. And I appreciate that you always ask us and you acknowledge that. It is excruciating to go through. But you know what? That just makes it all the more important for us to do it. And we feel really energized because this fight is far from over. TAPPER: So what is your reaction to Ghislaine Maxwell saying she would only testify if she receives clemency from President Trump and then her attorney also saying if she testifies, she's going to clear both Trump and Clinton?

STEIN: Well, I don't think that anyone was surprised by what happened today. We completely expected Maxwell to plead The Fifth and to not give any substantive information. And it's really concerning to us because, you know, she's trying to use what she knows about these crimes as a bargaining chip to get further leniency from our government. And, you know, she has a lot of important information to offer. But we need to remember that this is someone who's perjured herself in deposition.

She lied during her interaction with Todd Blanche this summer. And so I don't know if she did talk, how much weight we could necessarily put on everything that she said. You know, I think that what people also need to remember is that, you know, the survivors of this crime know what happened. And so when we see things coming out that, you know, don't parallel what our truth is, we really, we're taking notice.

TAPPER: Here's part of a powerful ad featuring you and some other survivors of Epstein's crimes. It was released yesterday on Super Bowl Sunday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After years of being kept apart, we're standing together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Standing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Standing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because this girl deserves the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she deserves the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we all deserve the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So Pam Bondi is going to before the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday. What is your message to her and the Justice Department?

STEIN: Well, we're planning on being there on Wednesday, and we want to send a really clear message that despite our Department of Justice's compete -- you know, constant, you know, constantly telling us that there's nothing to see here, that this is over, that, you know, we know otherwise. And we're really going to look for answers from Bondi about, you know, why were these documents rolled out in the way that they were rolled out?

I mean, we saw egregious admissions of survivors, personal information. This is exactly what they were telling us that they needed more time for, right? And I think that we really want to ask her hard questions about what was the procedure that went into the redactions, who oversaw them, and if they don't think that there is anything to see here.

You know, I think every page that we look at, we see a lead that can be followed up on. So I really want to hear from her what she thinks next steps are beyond, you know, there's nothing to see here because we're seeing that there's a lot to see.

TAPPER: Yes. I mean, for anybody who goes through those files, you know, there are a lot of allegations, and allegations are not convictions. We should be very clear. But there's -- even an FBI, like, graphic of, like, notable people who there are allegations about. And my question is, and you would have a better answer to this than anyone else, is there any indication that anyone in law enforcement took any of these allegations seriously and interviewed people?

STEIN: I certainly did not feel that way. I will tell you personally that I called the FBI in 2021, and I did find my FBI intake form with some of my personal information unredacted, but no one followed up beyond that. So I haven't given a victim statement. I haven't given a 302. No one has reached out to me to ask what I expect and what I saw. And I think that that's not an uncommon, you know, truth that many of us as survivors have.

So, you know, it's hard for us to see Ghislaine Maxwell being given multiple attempts to come forward and talk about what she saw, but we haven't even been spoken to, and we're the victims of this crime. So that's definitely concerning to us.

[17:45:05]

TAPPER: Liz Stein wearing a sweater that says courage is contagious. And you are so courageous, you and your sister survivors. And we thank you as always, and we will continue to cover the story until there is some sort of accountability for these disgusting men and women who were part of this. Thank you so much for being with us, Liz.

STEIN: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Turning back to here in Tucson and the search that has gripped the nation's attention, well before this, I spoke with Savannah Guthrie about her Christian faith and how her relationship with Jesus Christ has comforted her in difficult times, how that is likely playing a key role in her life, especially now as she tries to survive this horrible experience. My next guest is a bishop offering spiritual advice that could help all of us. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:50:08]

TAPPER: Welcome back to The Lead, live from Tucson, where the search for Nancy Guthrie brings us to our Faith Lead today. Repeatedly we have seen the Guthrie family talk about their faith, leaning on their faith during this incredibly difficult time, including this during the Instagram message, Savannah Guthrie of "NBC News" posted just a few hours ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTHRIE: I just want to say first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow, some way, she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: With me now, Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, D.C. Bishop Budde, thank you for joining us. How does faith help people get through horrific experiences like this one?

RT. REV. MARIANN EDGAR BUDDE, BISHOP, EPISCOPAL DIOCESE OF WASHINGTON: Well, first of all, to say that faith doesn't spare us anyone suffering. What faith does, I think is allow us to rest in the core conviction based on experience that our God is very present with us in suffering, in uncertainty, in unknowing. And as Savannah said in the piece that you just quoted, she feels the prayers of other people.

And I think what in the mystery of that is that we're praying to God, we're praying for mercy. And somehow that connects us in both a mystical way and a very practical way as we allow ourselves to join with God in whatever we can to provide consolation and support.

TAPPER: I want to play a clip from something Savannah told me a couple of years ago when she visited my show to talk about her book, mostly what God does, which is about her personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTHRIE: Faith doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in real lives, in real circumstances. And faith, you really figure out what your faith is, not in times of great triumph, but in sadness and darkness and doubt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In the book, there's a really interesting part when she goes back and reads her journals and she's surprised to see a time when her younger self, writing to God, talks about a wall of mistrust that she had -- that is separating her in God. Do you see that often? How do you help people get through that wall of mistrust?

BUDDE: Well, we wouldn't be human if we didn't feel it, right? Because we want to believe. We long to believe in a loving God, and yet we have to contend with the world as it is and the suffering that we know and that we see all around us. And so it would be illogical if we didn't have some resistance to that dissonance, right?

And it isn't something you can just leapfrog over. You work your way through it in perseverance and prayer. And then, I think, you know, as the title of her own book suggests, there are ways that God reaches out to us from God's side, and that doesn't always make logical sense to other people. But once you've had that experience, particularly in a time of struggle or pain or suffering like the kind she's going through now, it's the rock that you live your life by.

I think it's also -- yes.

TAPPER: Go ahead.

BUDDE: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, I was just going to say and maybe the Erika Kirk example is telling here, but it also grounds us in the human history of people of faith who have looked to their faith and who have endured and persevered through difficult times. So we're not alone in this, right? Prayer and faith and Christian or Jewish or whatever tradition, it connects you to others. And there is great strength in that.

TAPPER: So one of the things I remember from Erika Kirk at the funeral for her husband who was assassinated, was that she forgave his killer. And in that same vein, part of the prayer by the pastor at Nancy Guthrie's church yesterday, Sunday, was a prayer for the kidnappers. How difficult is that to pray for or forgive people who have wronged you?

[17:55:20] BUDDE: It could not be more difficult. And it's not always something that we can do on our own strength or capacity alone. It's a choice that we make to entrust even. I mean, we are -- we start from the premise that no one is outside the love of God, including the people who are causing great harm. And we surrender to that. And we also free ourselves from the weight of unforgiveness.

And again, I don't want to make it sound like this is easy, but it is a spiritual commitment that we make. And I think God honors that without -- by allowing us to feel somewhat released from the burden of unforgiveness and hatred.

TAPPER: Episcopal Bishop Budde, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.

The big news from Tucson this afternoon, a new message from Savannah Guthrie. What investigators might take away from this new video well beyond the words publicly said. That's next.

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