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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Sheriff In Nancy Guthrie Case Denies Tension With FBI; Journalist Don Lemon Pleads Not Guilty In Minnesota Church-Protest Case; Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) Is Interviewed About House Speaker Condemns DOJ's Tracking Of Lawmaker's Search History Of Epstein Docs; Trump: There Will Be Voter I.D. For 2026 Midterms; Undercover Video Shows Former House Manager Trying To Sell Epstein's Address Book In 2009 Sting Operation. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 13, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:50]

UNIDENATIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Erica Hill in for Jake Tapper. The lead tonight, the Pima County sheriff working to quash rumors that his department and the FBI aren't working in tandem to find Nancy Guthrie. Sheriff Chris Nanos sitting down with CNN's Ed Lavandera just moment ago has the sprawling search across Tucson, Arizona for Nancy Guthrie nears two weeks today.

We'll be hearing more from him momentarily. Meantime, of course, there is still no indication of where the 84-year-old mother of Today Show anchor Savannah Guthrie could be. The sheriff, though does tell CNN affiliate KILD investigators have in his words, she good leads.

The FBI last night releasing a description of the suspect seen in this chilling doorbell camera footage describing him as 5 foot 9 to 5 foot 10, a male with average build and wearing an Ozark trail hiker backpack. Now that is Walmart's private label outdoor brand.

The FBI has also doubled the reward from 50,000 to $100,000 as investigators continue to field thousands of tips. The Tucson community still keeping the faith for Nancy's safe return. Yellow ribbons and flowers lining the trees and the roads near her home, a symbol that has been used for years.

To my colleague Ed Lavandera, he's been on the ground there in Tucson throughout the investigation. Ed, you just of course spoke with the sheriff. What more did he tell you?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, this interview comes after the sheriff has kind of been embroiled in some controversial reports about whether or not he blocked the FBI from accessing key evidence. There have been multiple reports saying that the sheriff early on in this investigation kept the FBI from seeing DNA evidence. He strongly denies that's what's happened. The sheriff insists that the work that has happened here over the last

two weeks of this investigation has been done side by side with FBI authorities from the very beginning. So, pushing back very strongly on that.

But we also had a chance to talk about some of the other evidence that they have been collecting, and if we are any closer to finding the suspect or where Nancy Guthrie might be. One of the interesting highlights of this interview, though, is we asked him about the DNA evidence that has been found so far, and this is part of that conversation with him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA: We have DNA, so trust me, if we knew who it was, we'd be on it. But we do have some DNA, and we continue to work with those, with the lab on that DNA analysis.

LAVANDERA: Is that DNA that you have, you believe might be the suspects? It just doesn't match anyone in a lab or?

NANOS: What we have is we have some DNA and we don't know whose it is, so we'll keep looking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: So this seems like a rather significant development in this. We haven't had a chance to speak with the sheriff on camera like this for a week now. And the idea and the note here that there is some sort of unknown DNA evidence at this point seems to be a significant development in this investigation.

Obviously, investigators now trying to work as best they can to figure out where this DNA is coming from and who it -- whose it might be. It could be that it's someone completely unconnected, and it also could be the suspect. We do not know at this point, but obviously he said -- the sheriff also says that the video that we saw released by the FBI this week has generated an immense number of leads. They have been finding gloves, for example. A lot of gloves have been turned over to investigators. A lot of those probably have nothing to do with all of -- with this investigation.

But because the suspect in that video was wearing gloves, they have to check out all of them. So an extensive interview with the sheriff here this afternoon. Ultimately, we asked him, will Nancy Guthrie be found? And he insists that she will be found.

[17:05:00]

And helping out the family get to that moment is key for them.

HILL: Yeah. Absolutely. Ed, really appreciate it and I know there'll be more to come from that interview. Thank you for those early details. I want to break some of this down now with former FBI agent Bryanna Fox, who's now an associate professor at the University of South Florida. It's great to have you with us this afternoon. So the sheriff there telling Ed that investigators have this DNA, they

don't know whose it is. He says, what does this tell you about where the investigation could stand in this moment?

BRYANNA FOX, FORMER FBI AGENT: Yes, this is another big break. I mean, we, they've obviously been working on this, but we're just coming to find out. However, that means that they've been processing it. There could be some genetic genealogy going on right now. This has been obviously used in recent cases in the Idaho college murders. There is a lot of other high profile cases where it's been successfully used. So that could be something looking at.

Now, it may not be the suspects, but it could lead us in a direction. You know, who was there, what maybe they know, outside of the family, of course. So it's just another lead and that could be a huge break.

HILL: I just went for people who may not remember you mentioned what happened in Idaho. I believe you're referencing the murders in Moscow, Idaho, and it was going through the trash, essentially, if I'm recalling correctly of the suspect's parents, that then they were able to tie some of it. So is that what you're saying, it could end up being a situation like that?

FOX: That's exactly right. So we have DNA. They may not be able to match it with anyone in a known database, meaning this person probably never committed a violent crime requiring a swabbing and entering it into our DNA database systems.

But that doesn't mean that it's hopeless. It means that they are able to essentially look at who may be, you know, family members or related to this person. And through, you know, they consent to have their data be part of, you know, an open database that they can hopefully match and see. Well, this could be a potential half-brother, cousin of the person who was at that scene.

HILL: Yes.

FOX: And then that comes more police work.

HILL: We also have this description that the FBI released on Thursday of the suspect in that doorbell camera video. And they -- and they also clarified that this backpack is an Ozark Trail hiker backpack. It's a brand that is sold only at Walmart. It's their private label brand. So that helps to narrow things down potentially a little bit. Walk us through that process.

FOX: Right. So there are at least 4,000 leads that have come just in the past one day since the images were released. Those leads may have several people, you know, named or, you know, some, you know, hints of there's this person and they look like this. That starts, you know, triangulating when we look at receipts for purchases for this exact backpack.

They start in the Tucson region, they expand nationally. They can look at every single purchase that was made, the credit card or the cash, you know, the video associated with it. That will lead to somebody, that will lead to a purchase. They can then start associating that with tips that they've gotten or just good old fashioned police work and trying to track down every single purchaser and see do they have an alibi, where were they? Do they know Mrs. Guthrie?

HILL: Yes. In terms of that good old fashioned police work, this is not the first time that we have heard in a high profile case, especially about tensions between local and federal law enforcement. The sheriff just addressing some of that with Ed a little bit earlier in that interview.

How important is it that there be a healthy working relationship, especially in cases like this, between local and federal law enforcement investigators?

FOX: Yeah, critical. And, you know, I want to remind, because I've heard a few people state that this is the FBI's case. It's not. This remains the Pima County Sheriff's office case. They have invited the FBI to assist on the case because they bring enormous resources, experience. They have manpower, things that the Pima County Sheriff office doesn't have.

But it remains the Pima County Sheriff's office case. So when they're applying for search warrants, when they're connecting interrogations, it will be the sheriff's office that does that. That's obviously why this collaboration is so important.

HILL: Yes. Part of that dispute we're learning about this, which also involves some of the resources that you're mentioning of the federal government. The sheriff is denying this dispute, but there's been a little back and forth reported about evidence being sent to a private contracted lab, which the sheriff's department uses, or back to Quantico to an FBI lab.

What would be the difference? What would be the benefit, perhaps, of sending something to Quantico in this case, even if it meant perhaps splitting up the evidence in the investigation?

fox: Right. Not to -- I don't know anything about this lab in Florida, this private lab, but, you know, the FBI labs in Quantico are the state of the art, the best, I think, in the planet. So obviously the FBI would strongly urge that the, you know, testing is done there. It's what they know, what they use, and they have all, you know, immediate access to it.

Private labs are obviously open, and many, many agencies use them. It doesn't diminish the quality of the results, but it's just not something that the FBI normally does because they have this incredible lab at their disposal. So I think that's probably where some dispute came in.

[17:10:08]

HILL: Bryanna Fox, really appreciate your insight. Thank you.

FOX: Thank you. HILL: If you do have information about the disappearance of Nancy

Guthrie, just a reminder of the important numbers for you there on the screen. You can call the Pima County Sheriff's Department, 520-351- 4900. The FBI's toll free tip line, 800-CALL-FBI. You can also reach out to the agency online at tips.fbi.gov.

Much more to come here on the breaking news, including maintenance workers seen at Nancy Guthrie's home today on the property. Why? Our next guest is an expert on managing major crime scenes.

And a bit later here on The Lead, video emerging of an FBI sting operation included in the Epstein files the major piece of evidence that Epstein's house manager tried to sell.

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FOX: We are back now with our National Lead, the nearly two week search for Nancy Guthrie, the mother of NBC anchor Savannah Guthrie. Nancy Guthrie went missing from her home in Tucson, Arizona.

[17:15:00]

The Pima County sheriff now telling CNN Google is working to see whether it can develop the video from the rest of the security cameras around Nancy Guthrie's home in an effort to recover additional footage from the overnight hours when she disappeared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANOS: Those cameras were given to the same company. I believe it's Google Nest to say, look, what can you do for us? They developed that one. It was iffy for them. They, at that time, they said, we don't know what we can do. Same thing with the rest of it. They don't know, but they're working on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now, the former Fort Worth police chief Jeff Halstead, who's worked a number of major cases. Really appreciate you joining us this hour. So as we know, it was a tough process to recover that video.

The sheriff says the images that the FBI shared the other day generated though more than 5,000 tips. The idea that they could get additional video. What do you think that could change here?

JEFFREY HALSTEAD, FORMER FORT WORTH POLICE CHIEF: It could drastically change. And, you know, kudos to the investigators and the leadership and especially our private technology partners for stepping up because just look at how critical that doorbell camera, the images and the enhancements have proven to be in just two days.

Now, if the same success comes from other exterior and or interior cameras, it's a massive break in this case. So it's going to be very, very valuable not just to the investigators, but to make sure that the quality of the tips are directly related to the technology they're getting from inside or around the perimeter of the residents.

HILL: Yes, we talk about the residents. We were all a little struck here when we learned this from our CNN colleagues on the ground. They saw pool workers at Nancy Guthrie's home today with equipment that appeared to be what one would use for regular maintenance of a pool.

Law enforcement was still on the scene there. As I noted, you have managed major crime scenes. Should a pool maintenance or a cleaning service be working at the site of an active crime scene investigation? Why? Why or why not?

HALSTEAD: Boy, every crime scene is different. So let me explain. They do a controlled access in an area that we consider out of play most of the time. We have had some major crime scenes where an electrical issue happened within home and actual contractors, electricians or fire department personnel had to come right into our scene. So they are secured access. They make sure they monitor everything they're doing.

And then the officer that is supervising those types of maintenance work, they have to complete a supplement for the investigation to prove who came in, how they came in, what part of the, you know, the yard they did to gain access. But more than likely the pool was out of play and they thought supervised access would be OK.

HILL: I also want to ask you about the sheriff. So the sheriff denying reports that the department in Pima County and the FBI are clashing at all when it comes to this investigation. Here's what he just told my colleague Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: Who's in charge of this investigation right now?

NANOS: Look, we are. We means we the Pima County Sheriff's Department, along with our partners, the FBI. There's still -- the eagles have been put aside a long time ago. Our whole goal in this is not about the sheriff or being elected or it is focused on finding Nancy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: We were just getting this sort of federal law enforcement perspective from Bryanna Fox a short time ago. She said this is a local investigation. What's your view on this partnership, which is critical and how it should work investigations like this one?

HALSTEAD: Well, the sheriff said the right thing. It is a we investigative approach to this. The public, you know, these federal, city, county, state and federal all working together. That is the history of success in law enforcement. Not just high profile incidents, task forces, serial offenders, serial rapists, child abductors.

We always work effectively together. Him saying we is part of the passion we have at our company of driving collaboration systems so that they always work well together. And I think that's absolutely instrumental in this case.

HILL: There's -- I would imagine it almost feels probably like it changes by the day. Another element that is added to cases in 2026. My colleague Brian Stelter, writing in his Reliable Sources newsletter today about the influx of true crime influencers who've been swarming to Tucson to, you know, quote, unquote, cover this case.

You know, even one YouTuber had pizza delivered to the house. He writes, there's a recognition as one person involved in the Guthrie investigation told me, Brian Rice, that the breakthrough tip could come from anyone from anywhere. But there have definitely been occasions, of course, in the last 12 days or so when the aggressive sort of anything goes social media coverage has been unhelpful.

How do you balance that? The fact that you could get help from the public, but this is also an actual crime scene. This is a real missing person. This is not an episode of CSI.

HALSTEAD: No, it's not. You know, what is frustrating in today's environment is you have a lot of social media influencers and, you know, a lot of people making videos and they're just trying to get likes and subscribers and followers.

[17:20:07]

They have to understand to respect not just the crime scene, but the mission of the official law enforcement investigative and the entire investigative capacity of search and protecting things. With that said, you balance this out by building strong partnerships and relationships with many of these influencers.

Now, to their credit, they always approach supervisory personnel on scene and make sure that they're not damaging anything relative to the investigation. But a lot of the times their comments from either viewers or followers is not advantageous to the success of these leads coming in.

So the published hotlines and tip lines are still the most strongest avenue to get the quality of leads needed for this investigation.

HILL: And we know people have been -- have certainly been responding to that request for any of those leads or information just by the sheer volume of the tips that we've been told have come in. Jeff, really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

HALSTEAD: My pleasure.

HILL: Well, just moments ago in Minnesota, Don Lemon spoke to reporters after his appearance today in federal court. How the former CNN anchor said he plans to approach his case going forward. That's next.

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[17:25:36] HILL: In our Law and Justice Lead, independent journalist and former CNN anchor Don Lemon pleading not guilty this afternoon to federal charges filed after he live streamed a demonstration inside a Church in St. Paul, Minnesota last month. The protesters said one of the church pastors also works for ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Lemon says he was there to cover the demonstration, but he was charged with conspiracy and intentionally interfering with the worshippers' right to practice their religion.

CNN's Whitney Wild is at that courthouse in St. Paul. Also with us, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. So Whitney, I want to start with you. What happened both inside and outside of the courtroom today?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONKDENT: This was a pretty standard arraignment. It was also his initial appearance. It was the first time he is being seen in a Minnesota courtroom that will be the home district for this case moving forward. The judge asked him if he wanted to enter any kind of plea. As you mentioned, Don entered a not guilty plea and then there was a bit of back and forth between his attorney, Abby Lowell and DOJ about where Don's phone is.

Lowell said that he was tracked to LA. as we know, Don Lemon was arrested January 29th at his hotel as he was covering the Grammys by around two dozen federal agents. He said his -- Lowell said that Don Lemon's phone was seized and they haven't gotten it back yet. So he was asking if, you know, if they're not going to search it, could they get it back? If they are going to search it, can they get it back to him pretty quickly?

And DOJ said that they were in the process of executing a search warrant. It was not finished yet and they didn't have a timeline for when that phone might be returned to Don. Lowell also made several references in the hearing about what he plans moving forward. Multiple filings. One that came in today is a request for the release of grand jury proceedings. He also indicated that he plans to file a motion to declare this case unconstitutional.

Outside the court there was, you know, a couple of hundred protesters who were there to support Mr. Lemon and his co-defendants, eight other people who went inside that church that day. And they chanted, they, you know, voiced very loudly their support for Mr. Lemon and all of the other protesters. Let's listen to what Don said as he left the court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, JOURNALIST: I wanted to say this isn't just about me. This is about all journalists. People are finally realizing what this administration is all about. The process is the punishment with them. And like all of you here in Minnesota, the great people of Minnesota, I will not be intimidated. I will not back down. I will fight these baseless charges, and I will not be silenced.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WILD: Erica, we are keeping close watch on if those grand jury proceedings get entered into the record, if we will have a chance to see them. That is one of the main things we will watch as we go forward. And then also watching this motion, it sounds like it was a motion to dismiss based on the idea that this case was unconstitutional. Erica.

HILL: OK, Whitney, really appreciate it. Elie, walk us through what you see here. Based on what we know and what we have seen, does the prosecution actually have a case?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think so at all, Erica. I think this case is doomed to fail one or both of two bases. First of all, as Whitney said, we learned in court today that Don and his team are going to challenge this on First Amendment grounds, meaning he was functioning as a journalist to the events, not a participant in the events. And it is not a crime to cover a crime.

I have read this indictment line by line. One can take issue, perhaps, with Don's journalistic approach here, but I don't see a point where he crosses that line from being a journalist. He's covering it here, you see. He's interviewing somebody. He's broadcasting over into being a participant. So that's issue number one.

And then I think he's going to argue eventually that this is a vindictive prosecution. It's no secret how the President feels about Donald Trump. In fact, about Don Lemon -- in fact, when Don Lemon was arrested, the White House posted a victorious social media post where they made a pun on Don's name and put up an image of chains. I think that's going to come back to haunt them because he's going to say, how much more clear evidence could you have of a vindictive prosecution than that?

HILL: Yes, I also wanted to ask you, Elie, about -- we just -- we just heard from Whitney that Don, one of the things he was asking for in court today is he wanted to know when he was going to get his phone back because they seized his phone when he was arrested in Los Angeles.

How common is it that someone would be told? We don't have a timeline. We're still processing things. We're going to hold on to your phone for a little bit longer.

HONIG: This comes up all the time because regularly agents will get permission from a judge.

[17:30:01]

And in this case, I believe they do have a search warrant to search the phone. But the thing is, ordinarily, as a courtesy, you try to get the person their cell phone back as soon as humanly possible.

In fact, there is a technology where you can clone a person's phone. I've seen the FBI do this. So essentially, they make a carbon copy of everything in it, return the phone to the user, and then you can do forensics on the carbon copy that you have. So ordinarily, you would try to get someone's phone back within a day or two, and I wonder why that's not happening here.

HILL: Yes, certainly more than a day at this point. Elie, Whitney, thank you both.

Two prominent names in the Epstein files out of a job just days after their connections to the convicted pedophile were revealed. We'll have that story next.

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HILL: In our Law and Justice Lead, former Obama White House counsel Kathryn Ruemmler is resigning from her position at Goldman Sachs amid scrutiny of her ties to Jeffrey Epstein. CNN's K-File reviewed hundreds of e-mail exchanges between Ruemmler and Epstein from 2015 to 2019, long after Epstein served prison time on child sex trafficking.

[17:35:10]

Among their discussions, Epstein's legal problems and how to rebuild his reputation. He was tried to arrange for him to visit Epstein Island. And she also thanked him for several lavish gifts. Ruemmler insists that her relationship with Epstein was professional. Her Goldman Sachs resignation is effective at the end of June.

Overseas, a powerful tycoon who runs a major port in Dubai has now been replaced after DOJ released sexually explicit e-mails between him and Epstein. The communication between Sultan Ahmed bin Suleiman -- Sulayem and Epstein spanned at least a decade. The two discussed misogynistic descriptions of women and girls, business proposals. And in one message, Epstein referenced an alleged torture video, which has drawn scrutiny by congressional lawmakers. CNN tried to reach bin Sulayem several times this week.

But so far, we have not received comment. Meantime, Democratic lawmakers are calling for changes on how DOJ tracks their search history of the unredacted Epstein files. That revelation, of course, captured Wednesday during U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi's testimony on Capitol Hill, which shows Bondi holding a document listing Democratic Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal's search history when going through those unredacted Epstein files. The congresswoman from Washington state joins us now. It's good to have you with us.

So House Speaker Mike Johnson is calling this surveillance inappropriate, said there's bipartisan agreement that a new process is needed here. I know you spoke with him directly about this. What do you expect to see going forward? Did he promise you anything?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Well, I don't want to say exactly what we talked about, but I can tell you that his public statement was after he spoke to me where he said this is definitely inappropriate. Members of Congress should be able to peruse these documents without having their search history detailed. And so I talked to him not only about a brand new process where we ensure that the Department of Justice is not tracking our search histories, but I also raised the fact that she not only surveilled us, but she brought that document in to use it against me. Again, maybe she had other ones as well. That's the one we have the picture of.

And so we did also today, I, along with Jamie Raskin and Robert Garcia, sent a letter to Pam Bondi with our demand that she establish a new process and that she give us answers to exactly what she surveilled. How many members? Why did she do that? Why did she bring that information into the hearing room? Because it is absolutely unacceptable and against the separation of powers, as we pointed out initially and also in the letter.

HILL: Are you confident you're going to get answers to those questions?

JAYAPAL: I'm not confident, but I do think that this is one where we have bipartisan support. My conversations with the speaker have made that clear. And I have told him that this, I do think he understands that. And I think he's got members in his own party who don't like this as well.

HILL: All right. We'll be watching for those developments. I do also want to ask you about a development today. ICE Director Todd Lyons said that two ICE officers are now on leave as the agency and DOJ investigate whether they lied about the shooting of a Venezuelan man in Minneapolis. This announcement coming after a federal judge had ordered all charges be dropped against the man who was shot, along with another Venezuelan man. Do you look at this as progress when it comes to accountability?

JAYAPAL: Well, it's difficult because it never should have been the case that they lied. I mean, I remember that case very clearly. I remember commenting on it at the time. It just, you know, it followed Renee Good's murder and all the lies that were told about her and then similarly about Alex Pretti. So I don't think this is just about one or two individuals. This is about the culture at the department, starting from the top.

Kristi Noem needs to go. And we need to make reforms that we are demanding. Yes, I suppose you could say it's good. Why is it happening now after the judge, you know, after essentially this has gone to court and the information that is provided in all of these cases is just clearly oppositional to what department leaders are saying, not just those ICE agents, but people like Kristi Noem, Karoline Leavitt, even Donald Trump.

HILL: In terms of some of those demands, of course, we can't ignore the fact that funding for DHS is set to expire at midnight. It doesn't seem that there is going to be a deal before then, although we could all be surprised. This shutdown, though, would not just impact, of course, ICE and Customs and Border Patrol. It could be cybersecurity, infrastructure, security agency, the Coast Guard, the Secret Service. How long are Democrats willing to hold out here or continue this shutdown? And are you aware of any negotiations at this point that could be close to a deal?

JAYAPAL: I think the question is, how long are Republicans going to refuse to even implement fundamental constitutional rights, like the right, you know, to have an actual judicial warrant before you bash in someone's door or pull somebody out of a car or, you know, detain even U.S. citizens? That is what is happening. It is so serious, and that's why we're in the situation we're in.

[17:40:21]

The demands that we've put forward are not unreasonable at all, and I think the Republicans could end all of this right now by agreeing to put them into law, and then all of this funding will go through. I should also point out that when it comes to FEMA funding, for example, none of those FEMA funds are flowing.

You know, Kristi Noem has stopped the funds from going out, so we have problems even within there. But I would say that this is all about Republicans and whether they want any accountability on a Department of Homeland Security that Republicans, Independents, and Democrats have said has gone too far.

HILL: Democratic Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, appreciate you joining us tonight. Thank you.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Erica.

HILL: Just ahead, hear the response from Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez when asked about her political plans for 2028.

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[17:45:22]

HILL: In our Politics Lead, just moments ago, President Trump posting, and I'll read part of that post for you here. There will be voter I.D. for the midterm elections, whether approved by Congress or not. Moments later, he followed up with this post, "We cannot let the Democrats get away with no voter I.D. any longer. This is an issue that must be fought and must be fought now. If we can't get it through Congress, there are legal reasons why this scam is not permitted. I will be presenting them shortly in the form of an Executive Order."

My panel is here. So I do also want to point out, I believe it's 36 states, which either request or require some form of I.D. when you go to vote. There is actually overwhelming support among Americans when it comes to voter I.D. But Ashley, when I look at this, the president, executive order, is he going to, you know, try to get around Congress here? How would this even work?

ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL, GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION: Well, I'm not sure how it would work, but I also think whatever executive order is going to live in the courts for a long time. Listen, I think that a lot of this is just him getting attention on the issue, especially around the SAVE Act that was passed this week, which does require voter I.D.s for every, yes, federal elections.

However, I have been saying this from the beginning. There's absolutely no way we're going to change the Constitution and this is going to be ratified that this ever goes to the states. And so I just think this is like him talking like he's going to run for a third term. Like, I just think it's never happening.

HILL: So it's just, I should point out, we do have this recent Pew Research poll that found, we're talking specifically about showing a government issued I.D., right? This is not about proving citizenship to register to vote, which is a separate part of the SAVE Act and a separate issue. But 84 percent of Americans in this Pew Research poll favor it, just 16 percent oppose it. And this is pretty high along all party lines.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure.

HILL: So that he actually has some support for.

CARDONA: Of course. That doesn't surprise me. But we got to remember a couple of things, Erica. It is up to the states. So the states should be able to pass whatever laws they believe their voters will support. Let's also remember that for the states and places that don't require voter I.D., like here in D.C., you don't have to show an I.D. when you go to vote, but you do have to show an I.D. and proof of residency when you register to vote.

So that's already there. They already know who you are and that you are who you are. And then there are other precautions that are -- that they have for all of these states that don't require a voter I.D. when you actually go to vote.

HILL: Right.

CARDONA: So again, this is Donald Trump underscoring, trying to gin up attention for a problem that does not exist. And why? Because he's concerned about the midterm elections. He knows Republicans are in trouble. He knows they are facing a shellacking. And he is already laying the groundwork for whatever contentions he's going to want to make in the courts. And so that his supporters will again rise up and say, this was fraud. These were stolen. And so Americans just need to be prepared for that.

HILL: I know we need to get to 2026 first, right? We have to get to the midterms, but I'm going to jump over them. I'm going to talk about 2028 with you ladies, if that's OK. Because this is quite the showing in Munich of 2028 potential Democratic contenders. California Governor Gavin Newsom is there. New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez. Also expected Senator Ruben Gallego, Senator Mark Kelly, who was on earlier with Kasie, Chris Murphy, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. It is fascinating to see all of them in Munich right now.

DAVIS: First of all, I think that Munich is becoming, and will take over Davos for the place to be. I think it's a very serious conference. It's something that I would like to do much more than Davos. I think Davos has turned into too much of a circus. So serious foreign policy experts are at this conference right now. Remember what happened last year with the Vice President when he went viral? Because, I mean, on purpose he did because of his comments. If you're a candidate, no matter what, especially on the Democrat side right now, and you don't agree with the President's foreign policy, you want to make up with a lot of these countries that, you know, the president's fighting with. That's where you go. And that's your platform. So I mean, look what Newsom did in Davos though.

CARDONA: Yes, I do think it's about Democrats shoring up their foreign policy credentials. But look, this is not going to matter in 2028. 2028 is so far from yesterday, right? But it's fun for us to talk about. I do think it matters though, going back to the 26th elections, because it is an opportunity for all of these Democrats, who are leaders in their own right, to talk about the Democratic message, about how Trump has been so horrible for this country, not just domestically, but internationally. And I think it's great for them to be able to underscore that.

[17:50:02]

HILL: So way to lead me to my next question when it comes to messaging, because I thought these were interesting comments from Senator John Fetterman, talking to Dasha Burns of Politico. He was asked specifically about what he sees as his party's biggest liability ahead of the midterms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): Have you seen the last polling? You know, our brand, it continues to drop. For me, like that's -- I just want to be a Democrat that it's like, hey, I have these values and that's why I vote this way. I don't treat voters like children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Look, we know messaging has always been an issue for Democrats. We can -- I think we can all agree on that. But what struck me too is there's also this weird Wall Street Journal polling that found Americans actually trust, excuse me, congressional Republicans over Democrats on two big issues, the economy and immigration. Messaging is going to be key here.

CARDONA: You know what's interesting about that, Erica? What are the polls showing now? Maybe they show that, but what are the voters saying? Democrats have overwhelmingly won 90 percent of the elections that have happened since Donald Trump was elected. We have won state elections in ruby red places, flipped Senate states or flipped Senate races, flipped House races. The Republicans have not flipped one seat since Trump has been elected.

HILL: There is concern though. I was talking to a Democratic strategist, I will say last weekend, who said to me, we still haven't figured out what our messaging is on affordability because the voters that they have been speaking to said nobody gets us and we don't trust anybody. So maybe we just won't vote.

DAVIS: And Republicans, we need to do a better job on that as well because there are things that are happening like gas prices, et cetera, that are better. And you see some of the announcements that came out this week on emissions and car prices, hopefully going down from that and taking some tariffs off of aluminum and steel. But I just want to talk about Fetterman for a second. I'm a Pennsylvania girl.

What he says is refreshing for both sides of the aisle. I mean, he's kind of like -- he was the biggest one during the shutdown when both sides were fighting and like, what are we doing as a country, as elected officials in this country, shutting down our government? I actually think that he's the most reasonable politician right now.

HILL: We will watch and see if that message lands. Ashley Davis, Maria Cardona, thank you both. Good to see you.

Ahead here, a new video in the Epstein files that shows a house manager for the convicted pedophile committing a crime. What he was trying to sell to an undercover FBI worker. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:56:39]

HILL: We are back now with the Law and Justice Lead and yet another stunning find in the newly released Epstein files. It turns out the dead pedophile's house manager tried to sell his contact book but got caught in an FBI sting. The Justice Department included video of that operation in its latest release but initially failed to obscure the face of the undercover FBI employee.

CNN has updated its version of this report to make sure that that person's identity is concealed. Here's CNN's Kara Scannell with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALFREDO RODRIGUEZ, JEFFREY EPSTEIN'S FORMER PALM BEACH HOUSE MANAGER: Names, last names, area codes, it's OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who created this book?

RODRIGUEZ: Epstein himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This book was made by Epstein?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a video of an FBI sting operation with Jeffrey Epstein's former house manager and an undercover FBI employee from 2009. The Palm Beach house manager Alfredo Rodriguez believes he is selling Epstein's address book to someone representing a lawyer of Epstein's victims.

RODRIGUEZ: You will see a lot of important people here.

SCANNELL: He claims that the book contains contacts of powerful people as well as Epstein's victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So those are mostly underage girls, those numbers.

RODRIGUEZ: They were very young.

SCANNELL: A source familiar with the case confirmed the video shows the sting operation which court documents show happened two years after the FBI demanded that Rodriguez turn over any Epstein documents. Instead, court documents say he kept the address book and tried to sell it for $50,000.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alfredo, how are you? How are you doing buddy?

SCANNELL: In the occasionally redacted 45-minute video of the meeting, Rodriguez implicates Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's close associate who is now serving a 20-year sentence for sex trafficking of minors.

RODRIGUEZ: Ghislaine Maxwell was his former companion, a very powerful lady from England. She would go to the former east -- eastern countries in Europe and find girls for Epstein. And I knew that because I went with my wife.

SCANNELL: Rodriguez also claims that Maxwell kept a computer database of girls, something he said he saw briefly once.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of pictures?

RODRIGUEZ: Naked, naked girls from Sweden, from Romania, from Czechoslovakia, from Brazil --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All minors? All young girls?

RODRIGUEZ: Very young. Very young.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like when you say very young, how young are we talking?

RODRIGUEZ: Sixteen, 17, they're teenagers. They had braces, mostly.

SCANNELL: Rodriguez provided no evidence to support the existence of the database. The video, released as part of the recent trove of Epstein documents, abruptly ends after the agent hands Rodriguez a bag of cash and says he will call the lawyer. Rodriguez was arrested for failing to turn over the book as evidence. He claimed the book was his property and that he should be compensated for it, saying it was his insurance policy and that he feared Epstein would make him disappear or harm him. He eventually pleaded guilty to obstruction charges.

At sentencing, prosecutors said that if Rodriguez had turned over the book in 2007 when authorities first requested it would have significantly advanced the ball toward bringing Epstein to trial rather than allowing him to secure a plea deal. Rodriguez was sentenced to 18 months in prison and died in 2014.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:59:54]

HILL: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Erica Hill in for Jake Tapper. This hour, the new details in the search for Nancy Guthrie as we near two weeks since the 84-year-old disappeared. CNN sat down with the Pima county sheriff this afternoon where he revealed investigators do have DNA.