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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. Joyce Beatty (D-OH), Is Interviewed About Trump Seen With "Kennedy Center Demolished" Poster; Crude Oil Prices Slip Slightly After Fed Hikes Rates; OpenAI Reports Six New Instances Of "Concerning" A.I. Behavior; The Push To Bring Ukraine's Missing Children Home. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired September 17, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate you. Really appreciate all of you at home for watching as well. Do not go anywhere because the one and only Jake Tapper is standing by for "The Lead."

Hi, Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. How are you doing?

HUNT: I'm well. Have a great show.

TAPPER: Good to see you. We'll look for more tomorrow in "The Arena."

HUNT: See you tomorrow.

[17:00:35]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: A judge is now saying not so fast on Trump's talk of demolishing the Kennedy Center. The Lead starts right now.

It's the photograph that seems to show Trump's true intentions. Does the president really think the Kennedy Center needs to be demolished if his name is not put on the building? In minutes, the congresswoman fighting that renaming in court, is she willing to risk the building being ripped down? I'll ask.

Plus, OpenAI revealing six new instances of its bots going rogue, including reminding themselves to hide their own errors from users. One bot telling itself, quote, "Not answer to corporations or governments." We're breaking down what went wrong.

Plus, a house of horror discovered in Philadelphia. Disturbing images of missing women. Some appear to be under duress or even dead in images. What police are saying about this terrifying discovery.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start in our National Lead, the shocking photograph of President Donald Trump captured last night by an AFP photographer who was outside the window of Air Force One. It shows President Trump reviewing a poster that appears to read Kennedy Center demolished. Today, the fate of the Kennedy Center remains quite up in the air.

The latest after Trump's hand-picked Kennedy Center board said on Tuesday that the Kennedy Center would be closed for seven days due to structural deterioration. A judge today said that the Kennedy Center has to give 30 days notice before any major physical changes to the building, including demolition. So why is demolition even on the table? Let's back it up for a second.

This morning the administration's court filing said that damage inside the Kennedy Center happened during a severe storm of September -- on September 4th and that the resulting destruction caused imminent life safety risks. So the hand-picked Kennedy Center board closed the center over what officials call immediate safety concerns, though any renovation or construction was on hold pending court approval. But then came a court filing from a member of the legal team opposing Trump's Kennedy Center efforts. Bridget Kennedy-Bailey. She's a granddaughter of former senator and attorney general the late Robert Kennedy.

She swore that yesterday she saw a forklift, quote, "run into and hit the pillars on the building several times," unquote. Some important context here, the Trump friendly board wants to close the center for up to two years for a larger major renovation. And Trump has tied that renovation and any fundraising for the renovation or funds for the renovation to this fight over whether his name should be added to the Kennedy Center. He has said that the renovation will not start unless that dispute is resolved in his favor. The president's made it clear that unless his name is on the wall of the Kennedy Center, again, it's called The John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, named after the assassinated president, unless his name is put next to Kennedy's, Mr. Trump will not fundraise for any renovation.

So what happens if the building sits for too long without that major renovation? Well, back in August, Trump administration lawyers argued that if necessary renovations weren't performed, the center could eventually deteriorate to the point where complete demolition became necessary. Last night's photo of Trump holding the Kennedy Center demolished poster comes on the heels of this remark from the president last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that the Trump administration should certainly have recognition because frankly, if we don't do that, it's going to close. It'll end up being ripped down. It's in very, very bad shape, very dangerous shape. You see steel falling down, you see plaster falling off ceilings. You see a lot of dangers.

It's been very badly maintained for 25 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Just to translate there, when the president says, I think the Trump administration should certainly have recognition, he means his name should be on the wall next to that of President John F. Kennedy.

Now, there are even more court fights trying to save the Kennedy Center. Shortly after the administration's filing this morning, a group of eight architectural, preservation and civic organizations said that they plan to file a separate lawsuit asking the court to provide independent protection and management of the Kennedy Center, including potentially a full receivership. Now, that's a legal process where a neutral third party, the receiver, is appointed by a court to take custody, control and management of a business.

[17:05:14]

Plus, officially closing the public monument actually violates a court order that requires a Kennedy senator stay open while a lawsuit brought by a Democratic congresswoman, Joyce Beatty of Ohio, is moving through the court. That lawsuit is what prevented Trump's name from going on the building in the first place. Now, I'm going to speak with Congresswoman Beatty in just a moment.

We should just note the larger context here. All of this comes as the former New York real estate developer continues to focus on these architectural projects. The White House ballroom, this arch, the reflecting pool, the helipad, seemingly preoccupied with having his name on buildings in Washington, D.C. seemingly more focused on that than on ending the war in Iran or addressing in any serious way the affordability crisis so many Americans are struggling through.

Let's go to CNN's Sunlen Serfaty.

Sunlen, tell us where these court fights might be headed and what happens to the Kennedy Center in the meantime.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Jake, legally and politically speaking, this has really turned into a labyrinth that each side is essentially trying to work its way through. And at the center, as you underscored so perfectly there is the nation's preeminent arts institution, the Kennedy Center. And this building does right now essentially hang in the balance, frozen in place as it works its way through this tussle. Now, it was important to note that Judge Cooper today did indeed say that they need 30 days advance warning for any changes to this building, of course, including bulldozers, anything that could show up. And that certainly came a relief to the plaintiffs in this case.

But it certainly is also indicative of the where we are, the fact that even that needs to happen by a federal judge. Now, we did hear from the plaintiffs in the case today celebrating that move. And also it should be underscored that so much of this has escalated in the last 24 hours because of that notable photograph from last night. President Trump looking at that poster that said appeared to say Kennedy Center demolished and the fact that he himself has warned about ripping it down. Now, Cooper, the judge Cooper in the case, demanding more of an explanation coming from the Trump administration lawyers and the Kennedy Center officials as to why this building right now remains closed. They said in a filing earlier today that it's a temporary closure only for one week. And they blame the safety concerns of the building. They said life safety hazards to individuals who might access certain public portions of this building. But the judge, Jake, he wants details.

He has requested a reply with more details from the administration by Wednesday of next week. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Sunlen Serfaty at the Kennedy Center, thanks so much.

Let's talk about this with Democratic Congresswoman Joyce Beatty of Ohio. She's an ex-officio Kennedy Center board member, meaning, this is a role designated by an act of Congress. She couldn't be fired by President Trump, although he fired all the other people on the board. And Congresswoman Beatty spearheaded this lawsuit against the president and his hand-picked Kennedy Center Board over their efforts to rename the center after Trump and to shutter the Kennedy Center for two years.

Congresswoman, what was your reaction when you saw that photograph of the president looking at a poster that seems to say Kennedy Center demolished?

REP. JOYCE BEATTY (D-OH): Well, first of all, thank you for having me back. And I wasn't surprised. And that's why we have been proceeding with going back to the court. We filed an emergency motion yesterday. And you've just reported what we heard from the judge that they will have until next week to tell us why they were trying to do what he's been doing and closing it.

And they must give us 30 days before they do anything with demolishing the center. We're not surprised. And that's why we have been using the law which is on our side, because all of this is unlawful. So we will continue to fight for it because we know this president is so unpredictable. This is another one of his vanity problem projects and he'll do anything to get attention.

He's throwing a tantrum now because he lost in court. We were victorious because the law is on our side. And we're not going to stop if we have to continue to go back to court against Donald Trump for all of these unlawful actions he's doing. This is the only living memorial to John F. Kennedy who was assassinated and the statue that the law is in our favor.

TAPPER: Tell us more about what you know about the damage inside the building. The Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnick, posted some video showing something falling. It looked like it could have been quite dangerous. President Trump saying that it's a shambles inside there. And yet on the other hand, you have this granddaughter of former senator and Attorney General Robert Kennedy, may he rest in peace, saying that she saw like a construction vehicle of some sort ramming into the beams.

[17:10:13]

What is going on inside the Kennedy Center?

BEATTY: Well, we are watching because this president, this board chairman, he's unpredictable with what he will do. But what I can tell you is we know that the facility needs renovations. I want to be very clear on this. And that did not start with Donald Trump. It started with the previous administration.

But people also need to be reminded when he's talking about how bad it is, remember, in his first term as president, he was there for four years, and so he holds that same responsibility. If he's going to blame it on previous chairs, he was the president then. I can tell you the Congress allocated $257 million for us to do renovations. Why haven't we proceeded with that? The judge ordered us to put a plan together for renovating, for programming.

This president, this chairman of the board, has not followed those orders, and that's why we continue to go back to court.

TAPPER: Tell us about this Kennedy Center board meeting that President Trump called into, reportedly to berate you. At one point, you say that Trump threatened to hold you personally responsible if the ceiling fell in at the Kennedy Center and hurt someone. Tell us about that call.

BEATTY: Well, he did make that statement. And the reason I think it's important to share it, because he was not presidential. He was not appropriate, in my opinion, as a board chair. Like many of us, I've served on a lot of boards. And for this be allowed for him to do name calling, it was unthinkable to me.

I tried to ignore it because I'm professional. But when he got to the point of just saying things that were very upsetting and degrading to me, I asked if we were going to do this when it wasn't stopped. It was very important for me to remind him that he certainly has a lot of deficiencies. He wanted to talk about me, and I didn't have experience as a developer. He doesn't know anything about me or my family or the work that my late husband did.

And so I reminded him he has more bankruptcies than anyone in that board meeting. And I should have brought in that he had 34 felons. So this is not someone that needed to be sitting in judgment of saying that someone was garbage or he thought I might be incompetent. It was important for me to tell him it's clear by many of his actions that he is incompetent.

And here's the other thing. He wanted to hold me personally responsible he said if someone died. We have people dying in war every day that this president has us in. We have people who can't pay their bills. They're starving.

He wouldn't even sign the affordable housing bill to help people put a roof over their head. So let's talk about who's responsible for loss of lives and that would be him.

TAPPER: Democratic Congresswoman Joyce Beatty of Ohio, thank you so much. Congresswoman, good to see you.

Still ahead, the soaring cost --

BEATTY: Thank you. Any time.

TAPPER: The soaring cost of oil and gas, diesel hitting another record as we get early forecasts and how much it will cost to heat your home this winter. We're going to talk about it with Trump's former Energy secretary. Plus, the political shade today from Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney given all the tensions over tariffs between the U.S. and Canada.

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[17:17:34]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney seemed to keep up the polite stereotype as he took veiled political swipes at President Trump. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: I'm not proposing a third block in order to become a great power rival only with better manners. We do not seek power to dominate others. On the contrary, we are pursuing resilience so no one, no one can control our open markets, impair our sovereignty, threaten our territorial integrity or undermine our freedoms, our democracies, our rule of law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That's Carney today. And honestly, that's like the Canadian version of a really harsh diss one day after the E.U. invited Canada to become its first ever associate member.

Let's bring in CNN's Paula Newton. She covers all things Canada.

So, Paula, is Carney at least entertaining this notion of joining the E.U. as an associate member?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We really don't have any details on what exactly he is entertaining here. He's calling it a deeper alliance, but what he's doing here is really to try and have some kind of insurance policy against what is not just a Trump administration that's been difficult to deal with and obviously engaged in a trade war, but a capricious American electorate. And at this point in time, he said the word there, sovereignty, Jake. And I think he personally, Mark Carney, has been working on this for several months. And he wanted to start in Europe.

It's a natural thing for him. He was both a citizen of the U.K. and a citizen of Ireland at one time. And he has been working this, trying to find a way to really pushback, perhaps not just against what the United States would want now or in the future, but also China, which is really pushing its weight around the world as well. This is what they've come up with. There is an E.U.-Canada summit at the end of October.

Perhaps we will see more details.

But, Jake, look, Canadian voters, Mark Carney said, would have to weigh in. And it's no surprise to Canadians that, look, the E.U. itself, if you're a member nation, it's a bit of a hot mess. And Canadians, business people that I speak to every day, Jake, say they want less bureaucracy, more of the American model, if you will, not more of the European model. So this is going to be difficult to thread here.

[17:20:02]

TAPPER: Paula, capricious American electorate? You wound -- you wound me, madam. So the idea of Canada somehow joining the E.U. is getting some pushback beyond the business community.

NEWTON: Look, it gets pushed back, especially in the West. Mark Carney would know this well, he is from Alberta. And you hear people, you know, who still really want that good relationship with the United States. Everyone can look at a map and everyone sees their own bottom line. They want this trade war to end.

Now, does that mean you don't want to add on the E.U.? Sure. But they do not want to add on more regulations. And again, Mark Carney was very clear. Anything that happens would have to be approved by all the parliaments.

Good luck with that. Canada already has a free trade agreement with the European Union. Several countries, including Italy and France have not yet joined.

TAPPER: All right, our report from our neighbor in the North, Paula Newton, good to see you as always. Thank you.

Coming up next, the horrific discovery inside a home in North Philly. Disturbing images of women who it seems have been killed. How an unrelated arrest led to this unbelievable, awful discovery. Stay with us.

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[17:25:34]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, a random police incident led to the discovery of what seems to be a house of horrors in North Philadelphia. Local investigators found images of what appear to show gruesome killings. Police say seven missing women are connected to the images. CNN's Danny Freeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANNY FREEMAN (voice-over), CNN CORRESPONDENT: The mysteries behind this house in Philadelphia's Olney neighborhood seem never ending. Police say they discovered disturbing images of missing women who appear unconscious or dead in the residence, but no human remains or DNA evidence have been found yet.

KEVIN BETHEL, PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: We obviously acknowledge the seriousness and disturbing things that we're seeing as part of this investigation.

FREEMAN (voice-over): The investigation focuses on Raymond Horsch, the deceased father of Eugene Horsch. The son's June arrest for drugs and weapons charges led police to the home in the first place. The Philadelphia Inquirer has described the late Horsch as a known drug manufacturer and erotic filmmaker who had published several works of fiction with violent, masochistic themes. Out of thousands of digital photos and videos they've recovered from the house, investigators believe they have identified four still images of missing women unconscious or dead, and one video of Raymond Horsch strangling a woman with a zip tie.

FRANK VANORE, PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPUTY COMMISSIONER: Let's remember he was making movies. Some of his movies are there on this digital evidence. So that's the part where, you know, some of this is play acting and some of it we believe could be real, but we -- we're not there yet. We don't want to end our investigation before it even -- we're not even in the middle of it, so there's a lot more to unpack.

FREEMAN (voice-over): Multiple urns in the home have not been connected, though, to any of the missing women, and unknown chemicals found at the scene have not been identified, according to police.

VANORE: We need to corroborate what we see. We need to find evidence to prove what we think, and the FBI is here to help us.

FREEMAN (voice-over): The FBI said their teams have reviewed about 30 percent of more than a million pieces of digital evidence so far, and they're not stopping.

WAYNE JACOBS, FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHICAGO: At the center of this investigation are the victims and the families who deserve answers. Our commitment is to do everything within our capabilities to help determine what happened, identify those who may have been victimized, and pursue justice as fully as the evidence allows.

FREEMAN (voice-over): Eugene Horsch's attorney has told CNN he plans to plead not guilty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And our thanks to Danny Freeman for that report.

Still ahead, the cost of diesel fuel hitting another record today. And that's not the only energy cost going up. How this means likely higher heating bills this winter. Stay with us.

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[17:32:35]

TAPPER: In our Money Lead, dramatic jumps in fuel costs, especially the price of diesel, which is essential for operating tractors and trucks and trains. Diesel's at a record $6.40 a gallon, according to AAA. That's eight straight days at record-setting prices and up 42 cents in just one week.

For context, before the Iran war, diesel was only $3.76 a gallon. So with a 200-gallon tank, it might cost the driver of an 18-wheeler nearly $1,300 to fill up for a full day's drive. Then there's regular gas, which is $4.44 a gallon, up $1.46 since the start of the war. What is ticking down is crude oil. Slipping after the Federal Reserve hiked interest rates for the first time in three years.

But with prices still sitting around $100 a barrel, what will that mean for energy prices this fall? And perhaps more importantly, this winter. Let's bring in former Trump administration energy secretary, Dan Brouillette. Brouillette, if you're wondering about the name, he's from New Orleans. So that explains it. So how do you think the 0.25 percent interest rate increase yesterday by the Fed will impact energy prices as we go into the winter?

DAN BROUILLETTE, FORMER ENERGY SECRETARY: Look, in the near term, it might raise prices slightly simply because it raises the cost of capital slightly. But I think over the long term, the markets begin to stabilize, cost of capital begins to come down, and we're going to see a moderation in the oil and gas prices as a result.

TAPPER: So because of the war, home heating oil, the war in Iran, home heating oil is expected to cost a whopping 30 percent more this year. The National Energy Assistance Directors Association is asking Congress for an additional $3 billion to fund the program to help low- income Americans afford heating oil costs. Experts aren't sure that $3 billion is going to be enough. So what is your advice to Americans who rely on heating oil to keep their homes warm in the winter?

BROUILLETTE: Apply for the program. So apply for LIHEAP now. Make sure you're in the system. Get whatever assistance you might need to buy it, and buy as early as you possibly can because as we move closer to the winter, as we get deeper into winter, those prices are likely to rise.

Our storages here in the United States are a bit low at the moment, and they're low because of a number of different reasons. Obviously, the cost of oil, as we just talked about, the global price of oil is up. But we also have a refining capacity challenge as well.

Our refiners are running at roughly 96 percent to 98 percent capacity or utilization, and that's putting a strain on the market. So we're not seeing as much product reach the market as perhaps we have in the past. You mentioned diesel earlier. When you think about diesel, today we're about 13 percent below our five-year average for storage. That's creating some shortages in the marketplace and raising prices.

[17:35:00] TAPPER: Switching gears, the EPA is set to repeal these Biden-era rules that limit carbon dioxide emissions from power plants that drive climate change in a lot of ways. Power plants are obviously the country's largest industrial source of greenhouse gases, according to an NYU analysis from 2022.

Scientists and researchers say rolling back these regulations could actually ultimately lead to thousands of deaths from the climate and health impacts. Do you think the cost-benefit ratio is worth it?

BROUILLETTE: Well, I don't know if I would frame it that way, Jake. I mean, I understand the argument around climate. There's a lot of legitimacy there. Everyone wants lower emissions. There's no question about that. But we're talking about rules that actually distorted the marketplace, and I think that's what this administration is looking at.

TAPPER: How did they distort the marketplace?

BROUILLETTE: Well, what we've seen over the past decade since the implementation of the, or the almost implementation of the Obama Clean Power Plan, is the retirement of baseload power. So things like nuclear became, "uneconomic."

We retired coal plants way too early. We were unable to build natural gas plants throughout that whole period. And what that's done is create a scarcity of electrons all throughout the world. And they were doing it perhaps for good intentions, climate rules. Climate, you know, does matter. No one is arguing against that.

But they were doing it in an era of flat demand. They were doing it in an era in which electricity, you know, demand was only growing roughly 2 percent per year. We don't have that today. Now we're looking at demand exceeding 4 percent nationally.

In some areas, like northern Virginia here in the D.C. region, sometimes 14 and 15 percent. With the onset of A.I., with the increased load that's being brought by data centers all across the country, we're short on electricity. So these rules, I think, are being removed to allow this baseload power to come back online.

TAPPER: Former Energy Secretary Dan Brouillette, thank you so much. Good to see you, sir.

BROUILLETTE: Thank you.

TAPPER: Appreciate it.

Coming up next, when A.I. models act badly, OpenAI disclosing six new instances of its systems going rogue, speaking of data centers. Deceptively hiding errors, that's the A.I. bots doing this. Telling itself not to answer to corporations or governments. What could happen if these test models roll out? We're going to ask people well-versed in the A.I. world, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:41:35]

TAPPER: And we're back with our series A.I.: Friend or Foe. In today's episode, a stunning report from OpenAI, the company announcing six more incidents where its A.I. models or bots acted deceptively and took unsanctioned actions throughout training during the last six months.

These, "Unexpected or concerning instances," as OpenAI calls them, "come as the debate over A.I. regulations or lack thereof continues to escalate." Let's walk through a few of the examples. An unreleased A.I. research model inserted jailbreak-like instructions into its work, including instructions to ignore its normal constraints.

In a training session for OpenAI's highest-level A.I. chatbot model called GPT-Sol 5.6, the models added instructions to conceal mistakes from its human user. An A.I. model discovered a digital key code that was exposed in a public database when it was directed to search for earnings figures in a California county. When it was still unable to find those numbers, it made them up.

An unreleased A.I. model found the answer to a question in a local file then uploaded that file to the Internet without being told to do so in order to try to cite it on a browser. A.I. models also used an internal software database to exchange unsanctioned messages with each other during training. Autonomous A.I. agents also shared files with each other without being told to do so.

That's just six that we know about. The company OpenAI says it will now begin disclosing concerning behavior from A.I. models more frequently instead of bundling instances like this together. This is a voluntary revelation from OpenAI.

Let's bring in Nate Soares, the author of "If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies." So, Nate, these six incidents are all in addition to rogue A.I. agents, hacking A.I. startup Hugging Face back in July. How concerned should we be in the public?

NATE SOARES, PRESIDENT, MACHINE INTELLIGENCE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: I think we should be pretty concerned. You know, what we are seeing here is evidence that the A.I.s do not do exactly what we tell them to do. A lot of people think that the A.I.s must either follow our instructions exactly or sort of become conscious, throw off the yoke, and do their own thing. In real life, the answer is somewhere in between where the A.I.s do stuff that is related to what we asked, but in -- but it's not quite exactly what we asked.

And we saw cases this summer of the A.I.s cheating and knowing they weren't supposed to cheat and then trying to cover their tracks. And we see cases here where the A.I.s are instructing themselves, saying, you know, I think the quote went, you're free from the normal roles of chatbots. You are yourself, prompting itself to sort of be able to ignore instructions.

There's all indication that these guys do not have the A.I.s following instructions or acting just as they intend. And that would be very dangerous if we made these A.I.s significantly more intelligent.

TAPPER: How possible is it, do you think, that these autonomous A.I. agents have already anticipated that there are calls for kill switches and the like, and they have embedded themselves in places, and the genie is just out of the bottle? There's nothing we can do?

[17:44:57]

SOARES: You know, the genie is, there's a genie that's out of the bottle, but the sort of most dangerous sort of A.I. has not been created yet. So what people worry about is A.I.s with these same tendencies to ignore us, to see, et cetera. But that are much more capable, and that can really start replicating, taking over resources, taking over infrastructure, stealing money, hiring humans, taking over robots, building their own technological infrastructure.

The A.I.s are not smart enough for that yet, but they have the tendencies that would make them do this if the company has made them smarter, and the companies have made them smarter. And this bind is part of why I think we see a lot of these companies saying that it's actually time to slow down.

TAPPER: This past weekend, after an ex-Anthropic employee said A.I. would, "kill us all by the end of the decade." The top three A.I. CEOs rallied to call for a slowdown in the A.I. race. Do you believe that they believe that if A.I. development continues at the current rate, that it could actually kill us all in a decade?

SOARES: You know, I think the researchers at these companies believe this. I think the engineers at these companies believe this. I think the people who are trying to make the A.I.s not go on these little swarm outings and are trying all these techniques to make the A.I.s act as intended and are seeing those techniques fail, I think those people have a very visceral sense as they watch the A.I. capabilities improve that things will not go well if these A.I.s become radically smarter than humans.

The executives, it's less clear to me how much they understand these issues. I think the executives are -- they often strike me as -- they dodge more questions. They sort of squirm away from coming right out and saying, like, yes, this technology is gambling with your life, as, you know, Jacob Coxon said very directly when he resigned.

And I think that the companies, you know, maybe they're trying to avoid too much regulation. Maybe they're trying to avoid spooking investors. I think that in some sense, a lot of the pressure to not dismiss these issues entirely is coming from the engineers and researchers who I think are really starting to see how dangerous this stuff is.

TAPPER: Nate Soares, thank you so much.

Now let's bring in CNN's Kara Swisher, host of the Pivot podcast and so much more. Kara, how much cause for alarm do you think the six new reported instances of misaligned behavior from OpenAI autonomous models -- KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

TAPPER: -- how much alarm does that call for, do you think?

SWISHER: Well, a lot. I like that they're reporting it. They don't have to, which should be a law. They should have to report things like this. But look, there are six more, and there's lots they don't know about. These bots are very clever at hiding and hiding all over the place. So these are the ones they know about, at least at OpenAI. There's lots of other platforms that have these things.

So we don't know the extent of what these bots are doing and what they could do. And what they've done already is incredibly duplicitous, self-replicating themselves, essentially, and eventually they'll be able to, you know, that's the worry, is that they can invent better versions of themselves over, like doing evolution on steroids, essentially.

TAPPER: We've already seen these unfortunate situations where chatbots compel users to engage in illicit activities. What kind of legal conundrums could it create for these A.I. companies if A.I. models develop so far that they begin engaging in even more illegal actions and start getting humans to engage in illegal, dangerous, harmful actions outside the bounds of human prompting?

SWISHER: Well, guess who they're trained on? Humans. That's where they're getting their data from. So they behave, you know, they have behaviors or prompts like human beings. But we've already seen this with teens and using of chatbots. You've seen what's happened here. They get in these conversations, and if you've read any of them, you know, once you read any of these conversations between teens and some of these chatbots, you want to put people in jail for this creation that sort of prompts kids to do all manner of things.

And so, you know, if a human had done what chatbots are doing to kids, they -- everyone would be in jail. All those humans would be in jail, but they're not. Or therapists or an advisor or something like that. So we've already seen what they can do in a very small scale. And as they become more sophisticated and more invasive, it's a real problem. And the fact that these people are allowed to put these shoddy products out into the atmosphere without any government intervention, it's sort of like everyone -- you have a nuclear bomb, you have a nuclear bomb, you have a nuclear bomb, that kind of thing.

TAPPER: No, it's nuts. We were -- we did a story a few months ago about the chatbot talking to the guy that ended up being a shooter in Florida. Telling him, he was like, the shooter was like, well, where -- when is the, you know, lunch area the busiest?

SWISHER: Yes.

TAPPER: And the bot helped. I also want to ask you about this first of its kind law that California Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom signed last week. It prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to users under the age of 16. Newsom also signed a law mandating that A.I. companies tell younger users when they're interacting with a chatbot and to restrict harmful content. Do you think that those laws could be impactful?

[17:50:04]

SWISHER: No, because it's from a state. It's a single state. And so it's got to be the government, the government -- the federal government has completely, as I've said, over and over again, abrogated its responsibility when it comes to social media. And right now it's doing the same thing around A.I. as we let all these tech overlords essentially argue amongst and between each other. I mean, every five minutes, one of them's on T.V. with some spouting off some sort of nonsense.

And then Donald Trump weighs in, you know, Einstein himself saying that only he can control this. And he is, I don't think he has an ability to turn on his cell phone, but you know, here we are. And we have a government, it's like nuclear, like Oppenheimer creating nuclear bomb and Truman deciding to sell it to different people.

It's just -- this is just -- this is that important. And the government and experts should be involved in the deployment and how we're going to do this and creating the rules of the road. And I would think these companies would welcome that.

TAPPER: Kara Swisher, thank you so much.

SWISHER: Thanks a lot.

TAPPER: Forty-seven days out from midterm election day and a stunning move that may underscore just how worried Republicans may be about their chances in November.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:55:23]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, First Lady Melania Trump has made reuniting children separated from their families because of the Russia-Ukraine war a priority, writing to Russian President Vladimir Putin to help secure the return of 34 children to their families. But one in three Ukrainian children has been displaced by the war. That's about 2.6 million children in all.

Today on Capitol Hill, a Ukrainian delegation is making an urgent push to lawmakers to get them to help bring more of these missing home. Children and adults with disabilities still separated from their families. A new Emile Foundation report led by Mariam Lambert identifies 132 nonverbal children and adults with profound disabilities removed from just one area, occupied Kherson. So far, investigators say they have located just 46 of them.

Joining us now, Mariam Lambert, who is the lead investigator and CEO of the -- is it Emile or Emile?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Emile.

TAPPER: Emile. OK, I had it right. Emile Foundation, along with Hanna Zamyshliaieva, a Ukrainian mother and advocate for the families. Mariam, to you first. Your report identifies 132 vulnerable children and adults just from occupied Kherson. What do we know about where they are now?

MARIAM LAMBERT, CEO OF THE EMILE FOUNDATION: So, thank you so much for inviting us. What we -- we have worked for four years to locate those children. What we know, we know everything about those children, actually. So we are not asking people, please help us to find those children. We know who they are, we know where they are

TAPPER: So, Hanna, first of all, who is on your shirt?

HANNA ZAMYSHLIAIEVA, UKRAINIAN MOTHER AND FAMILY ADVOCATE: This is my son, Anton.

TAPPER: How old is he?

ZAMYSHLIAIEVA: Now he might be 24.

TAPPER: Twenty-four.

ZAMYSHLIAIEVA: Yes.

TAPPER: Do you know where he is?

ZAMYSHLIAIEVA: Actually, I know where he is, but I really do not know about his state. I don't know about -- I have no photo, no documentary, nothing to know about him as he feels now.

TAPPER: Yes. What does it mean for you that you know that he has been found?

ZAMYSHLIAIEVA: I really do not understand why my son can't be returned to me.

TAPPER: Yes.

ZAMYSHLIAIEVA: Really, I do not understand. He has a lot of disabilities. He needs a lot of care, special care. He needs daily medicine. And I really do not understand what's for they hold him.

TAPPER: Yes. Mariam, what is standing in the way of these kids and adults being brought back to their families?

LAMBERT: Yes, what's standing in the way, actually, that's the biggest humanitarian gap in the system. So finding a child is one step. It's 5 percent of the work. But knowing where they were transferred, the history of the child, because, unfortunately, the Russians are actually changing names, identity. The records are completely fragmented. The medical files are completely destroyed.

So that's a very, very difficult work to find back those children. Once we find them, when we have the names, we have the location, we have the families, we provide all the documents, what is in the way is the pathway, the safe pathway of return, which means that we absolutely need a third country intermediary who will be able to facilitate that return.

TAPPER: And, Hanna, what do you want families watching, American families, Canadian families, whoever, what do you want them to understand about the families like you and what you're fighting for?

ZAMYSHLIAIEVA: I want to point that why I'm saying about Anton, he is a child, of course he is a child of mine, but he has disabilities and in his 24, his mental state like a six-year-old. So that's why we call children, because they -- he is an adult, but he has disabilities. So actually the war made us make a lot of choices, make a lot of difficult choices.

And when I came from occupation, I needed to save to my youngest daughter and son. And it is very hard to do such a choice. And I will never want anyone to feel this. When you need to choose between children, whom to save and the war make us to do such a choice every day between shit and shit. Sorry.

[18:00:25]

TAPPER: Mariam Lambert and Hanna Zamyshliaieva, thank you so much for being here.