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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
CNN Projects Rep. Jamaal Bowman Loses Primary To George Latimer; Biden And Trump Strategizes For The Upcoming Presidential Debates; Hillary Clinton Advices Biden On Debate With Trump; Gag Order On Trump Partially Lifted. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 25, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Those photos in the brief, is because they're trying to respond to an argument that FBI shuffled up the documents and got them out of order.
[22:00:00]
And the response from DOJ is, look, they were already a mess. That motion to invalidate the search warrant will fail. Donald Trump will not succeed on that motion.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Okay. We'll be watching. Well, we'll see when she rules on the motion.
HONIG: That's a prediction. I don't do them often, but there's one.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, thanks for bringing your sources to The Source tonight. And thank you all so much for joining us. We'll see you tomorrow live from Atlanta.
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip starts right now.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Right here in New York, are we watching an omen of what November may bring? That's tonight on NewsNight.
Good evening, I'm Abby Phillips in New York. Moments ago, a major CNN projection in the race the entire political world's attention has been fixated on tonight. Jamaal Bowman is now officially out of a job, the squad member losing tonight to George Latimer. It is an important marker, and it shows the potential political power and peril of the war in Gaza. It also shows that candidates are taking a dramatic risk, perhaps, when they alienate Jewish voters.
Bowman is younger, more high-profile, he's a key fixture in what was thought to be the rising wing of the Democratic Party alongside fellow New Yorker Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Rashida Tlaib, and also Ilhan Omar. But he is now on the losing end of the most expensive House primary in American history.
CNN's Senior Data Reporter Harry Enten is over at the magic wall and has the latest results for us. So, Harry, what happened there in New York 16?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, I mean, look, you had the margin up your screen. I got my nice little yellow check mark up here, a double digit win for George Latimer. You very rarely see incumbents losing by this wide of a margin, double digits.
You know, what happened, you asked Abby. Well, a few things happened. Number one, I would say Jamaal Bowman didn't exactly know his district. What do I mean when I say that? Well, let's break it down by county, these particular results, right? The 16th district is partially the Bronx, it's also partially Westchester.
Let's go to the Bronx part of the district. What do you see? Oh, that's a little bit further. Now, well, here we go. We'll talk about the Bronx. We'll talk about Westchester. If you look at Westchester, what you see is a tremendous margin for George Latimer. If you look at the Bronx portion of the district, what do you see? You see the exact opposite. You see a very large margin for George Latimer. The, issue of course, is that the Westchester part of the district makes up a considerably larger portion of the vote.
More than that, you know, there's this whole question, okay, this is a primary, right? Normally, we deal with low turnout. Well, look back to where we were in 2022. Look at the turnout, the total votes that were cast in New York 16th district. What did we see? We saw a little less than 40,000 folks cast a ballot. Look how many folks cast a ballot this time around. Only so far, we're looking at about 55,000 votes already cast with still a considerable portion of the vote still to go in New York's 16th Congressional District.
You also mentioned Israel earlier on, Abby. Here's the thing that I will note. George Latimer led this race wire to wire. Even before any of that AIPAC money hit the air, George Latimer was ahead in the internal polling by double digits. And as we look at this race right now, what do we see? We see it definitely paid off for George Latimer, a long time local Paul, served in Rye as early as 1987. He is the winner tonight. Jamaal Bowman is out of a job in large part because, in my opinion, he didn't know his voters well enough, Abby.
PHILLIP: A major moment for the House of Representatives and for Jamaal Bowman. Harry, thank you very much. We'll check in with you later. A lot to digest tonight with our panel, and George Latimer will join me live in just a few moments.
But, first, here on set with me, Republican Strategist Joe Pinion, former White House deputy press secretary for the Obama administration, Bill Burton, CNN Political Commentator S.E. Cupp, and CNN Senior Political Commentator David Axelrod.
David, this is an earthquake. The squad came in with a bang in the 2020 election. Now, one of its members is out of a job over an issue that has animated the progressive left but alienated them from the center left as well, perhaps.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, look, and I think that there's no denying that this was at the center of the race, but Jamaal Bowman had other problems as well that we shouldn't ignore, you know, maybe best characterized or symbolized by his decision to pull a fire alarm in the middle of a vote to stop a vote in Congress, for which he was cited. And so, you know, he had issues.
This is in the main, a more center left district.
[22:05:00]
And he, you know, he got elected in the George Floyd year. But I think this is part -- we should -- just a couple of weeks ago, there were primaries in Oregon and in Portland where you saw two progressive candidates lose to center left candidates.
And so the question isn't just about, you know Israel, which is obviously a divisive issue within the Democratic Party between the progressive contingent and other Democrats, but also whether there is a general moving more to the center among Democratic primary voters.
PHILLIP: Bill, what do you think about that?
BILL BURTON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Well, I think, you know, I think that Bowman ran a campaign that was true to who he is as a progressive. He brought out AOC and Bernie Sanders. He had some high-profile interviews, including on The Breakfast Club with Charlamagne Tha God. But to David's point, that's just not where this district was. This district is a center left district, and I think that if you spend 20 million against someone whose politics don't totally match up with where the district is, you just don't have a shot.
PHILLIP: Ultimately, this will also be seen through the prism of the Gaza war. And there are concerns out there on the left that this is an issue that could divide Democrats.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it is. It is dividing Democrats. I was speaking to a number of voters in Michigan who have said, we are staying home. We're done. We're gone. We are not coming back home for Joe Biden, which is kind of wild to think about because the alternatives, Trump and RFK Jr., are even more pro-Israel. So, these are people who are that offended and disaffected that they want to stay home.
On the other hand, you've got people like Bowman really sort of cartoonishly exaggerating when they go out on the stump. He trafficked in some conspiracy theories that were really ugly. He later apologized for them. There was a story that he contacted some Jews that he knew asking for photographs to prove that he had friends in the Jewish community, a lot of missteps. And what we're seeing is that Jewish voters in Westchester voted early, real early. I mean, something like 15 percent had already clocked in their vote. So, they were really animated by that.
But as David said, he had other problems. The ads that were running against Jamaal Bowman criticized him from the center left for going after Biden and not being with Biden enough. He had some issues.
PHILLIP: I want to play one of those ads that you just mentioned. This is just an example of all the money that poured into this race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jamaal Bowman keeps attacking President Biden, and it's hurting New York. Bowman called President Biden a liar. He voted against the President's Infrastructure Act, against rebuilding roads and bridges in New York.
Jamaal Bowman has his own agenda, and he's hurting New York.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Latimer will take on MAGA extremists, and he'll work with President Biden to keep delivering progressive results.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So not exactly attacking him from the right there. I mean, for Republicans, what message would you take away from what happened here tonight?
JOE PINION, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I don't really believe this is about Republicans. I think that there is a gut check moment happening for Democrats that, one, are they going to be tolerant of unabashed anti-Semitism within their ranks. I think that's a real issue. You cannot deny that. You see the money that was spent over $25 million. It was an avalanche of cash that drove that turnout. But I think even to Harry's point, this race was, in many ways, over before it started.
Look, I grew up in the 16th for a great deal of my life in Yonkers, New York. For the longest time we had Eliot Engel, most famous for hanging out by the railing, waiting for the president to come give the State of the Union. But at the end of the day, I disagree with his politics, but he certainly comported himself in a way that the district could be proud.
And so when you have somebody who spends their entire life as an educator, who then goes to D. C., starts pulling fire alarms, and pretends he has no idea that the fire alarm is actually a fire alarm, when he is running around cursing and acting in a profane manner, I think he was so eager to be part of the squad that he doth protest too much. He was the last one in and he is now the last one out.
And I think for me, the question becomes, does he gracefully bow out? Does he continue to go down this rabbit hole, because he does have the working family party line? Originally, he did give the working family response to Biden in 2021. I think Democrats gave them their response. He's going to be looking for a new job.
AXELROD: Abby, one of the things on the -- like I said, I think there was much more at play than this issue. But on the issue of Israel and Gaza, he was one of those who was pretty reluctant to criticize Hamas and accept the reports of what Hamas had done, the atrocities of October 7th. I think that was a bridge too far for a lot of -- I think it's possible to hold two thoughts. I hold them. I was absolutely devastated by what happened on October 7th and I weep for the children of Gaza. I think it's possible to do those two things. He wasn't doing those two things. [22:10:01]
PHILLIP: But do you think that the -- I mean, the race was being made to be about AIPAC money.
AXELROD: Yes.
PHILLIP: The impact of money in politics. Bernie Sanders and AOC basically said big money is buying this race. I mean, is that a fair criticism?
AXELROD: Look, I think there's no doubt that big money played a role, that AIPACs money played a role, but they also had something to work with. As you saw, that ad was not about Israel. That ad was about Jamaal Bowman, and he did not fit that district. So, yes, on the one hand, and you see it in other districts, you see in the Cori Bush race and in Missouri, you see some of this, but at the end of the day, if someone has a solid base and is in tune with their district, all the money in the world is hard to beat an incumbent. He was a sitting duck in some ways not because of this issue but because of many issues.
CUPP: Yes, one of which was -- you know, Hakeem Jeffries has talked about the sort of thorn in his side of the far left extremes. Hakeem Jeffries wants to take back the House. He wants candidates more like Tom Suozzi in New York and less like Jamaal Bowman running around kind of embarrassing the party. So, there were those internal party factors as well.
PINION: I think to that point, you know, obviously, George is going to be joining us. Look, I don't agree with his politics, but I think Jamaal Bowman never saw a two-term sitting county executive coming at him from the right, somebody who quite literally has never lost an election. So, you see somebody who has gone from Rye, gone to the State Senate, gone to become county executive, is a known quantity in Westchester in particular, in that district. I think that he spent so much time hanging out with AOC, he believed that that district reflected his own, and I think to Harry's point, he found out the hard way it did not.
PHILLIP: All right. Everyone stand by for me. The winner, George Latimer, as we've been discussing, he's going to join me live in just moments.
Plus, we're going to talk about the big debate that's just 47 hours away.
Stay with us. This is NewsNight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:16:31]
PHILLIP: More on our breaking news, CNN projects that current Westchester County Executive and primary challenger George Latimer has defeated squad Congressman Jamaal Bowman in a major House race upset. He is going to join us in just a moment. But this is, for our panel here back in New York, a moment for the squad. Where did they go from here, Bill?
BURTON: Well, I don't think you have a lot of squad members in districts like this one, right? I think that this is a very particular set of circumstances where the politics didn't necessarily match up with where the voters were. So, I think that, you know, the squad is going to continue to be the progressive voice of the Democratic Party and continue to push on the edges of where politics are. And I think that there's a place for that and that's fine, it's just -- probably not in districts like this.
PHILLIP: What about AIPAC? I mean, are you comfortable, Joe, with the way that they are playing? I mean, it's not just this race. I mean, they have gone after progressive Democrats in a bunch of different races, sometimes have lost, but are you comfortable with the way that they are wielding their power in electoral politics?
PINION: Well, I mean, first of all, they're not the only group that spends outrageous amounts money on politics. So, I think to single them out in that regard is unfair. I think, in many ways, maybe I'm the rare voice, but they've made some mistakes and those mistakes have reaped the Jamaal Bowmans of the world. If you look at what happened in October 7th, going all the way back many years, AIPAC has endorsed many incumbents, the Chuck Schumers of the world, the Kirsten Gillibrands of the world, people who have spent a great deal of their time now undermining Benjamin Netanyahu at a time when Israel needs our support the most.
And so I think this kind of reflexes status quo support has led to this place where they have to spend so much money to send a message.
PHILLIP: You know, it's interesting that you brought that up, because I do think this kind of status speaks to where we are politically. It used to be that AIPAC was sort of somewhere in the center of the two parties. The accusation today is that now they have moved actually to the right and they don't want to acknowledge that that's what's happened.
AXELROD: Well, I mean, part of it is that they, they take their signals from the government of Israel and whoever the government is at that moment. Netanyahu has been a dominant force and he's created these alliances with the Republican Party here.
It's interesting, you know, he had gotten sideways with Donald Trump because he acknowledged Biden's election and Trump was very angry at him and has said so publicly. And now it feels like he's working hard to sort of make amends and hedge his bets on this next election.
But I just disagree with you, Joe, on the idea that somehow if you're an American politician or an American president and you disagree with Benjamin Netanyahu, that somehow that makes you anti-Israel or worthy of opposition. There are plenty of people in Israel who oppose what Netanyahu is doing and have questions about how he's conducted this.
PINION: What I'm saying specifically is not that someone cannot disagree with the tactics of Israel or not saying that somebody cannot actually criticize the prime minister of Israel. What I'm saying is that there has been a certain level of consternation at a point in time when America needs to be supporting Israel in their efforts to root out Hamas root and stem.
And so I think, again, to your point, you can hold two positions at the same time. Yes, we can say that there is a place for criticism, but we have gone past criticism. We have gone to a point where I truly believe that if you actually look at the statements that have been made by key stakeholders within the Democratic Party that have previously been supported by AIPAC.
[22:20:02]
They have done things that have made it more difficult for us to get those hostages back, have made it more difficult for Israel to press their cause. And that is just my position.
AXELROD: Some would argue that the difficulty in getting the hostages back is Netanyahu himself, who has repeatedly turned down various proposals.
So, I don't know that it's fair to say that. All I know is this I don't know where Israel would be without the kind of support that America has provided. I'm old enough to remember when Iranian drones were coming over Israel a few months ago and they were shot down mostly by American weapons.
PHILLIP: All right. Guys, everyone stand by for me. George Latimer is joining me now.
Sir, congratulations and thank you for joining us tonight.
GEORGE LATIMER (D), WESTCHESTER COUNTY EXECUTIVE: Thank you, Abby. It's an honor to be with you tonight.
PHILLIP: So, this is, as we've been saying, the most expensive House primary in the history of this country, $25 million poured into this New York district, more than $14 million from AIPAC. What do you say to some of your constituents who are concerned about that kind of money pouring into politics in this way?
LATIMER: Well, the first thing I can say, Abby, is I've been in public office for 35 years. I've held a variety of positions. I've never once changed a position based on a campaign donation, ever. Nobody has ever accused me of that. What I know is that in winning this race tonight, I didn't win it on the national debate. I won it because I went door to door where I could all throughout this district. And I talked to people about the issues they wanted to talk about, which included what's happening in the Middle East, but really prioritized domestic issues, things like affordability, housing, restoration of the sole tax deduction.
So, I think that the constituents that I talked to are the ones that I am most interested in their point of view. And that's the one that I'm going to try to focus on. I understand the national debate, but I think in this district, that national debate was secondary to the local discussion of who could best represent this district on domestic issues.
PHILLIP: I do want to play, though, something that you said that got a lot of controversy. Let me just play this clip for our audience here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LATIMER: When you get as much money as you get from outside the district, your constituency is Dearborn, Michigan. Your constituency is San Francisco, California. It's not Harrison. It's not Tuckahoe. It's not (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, there in that clip, you're critiquing Jamaal Bowman for getting money from outside of the district from Dearborn, Michigan. That was viewed by Bowman an Islamophobic dog whistle. Could you just address that? And also address how you can make that critique while also receiving money from outside of the district as well?
LATIMER: Well, let's begin with the fact that the fundraising that we had in our campaign was more than half from within the district. So, the incumbent raised 10 percent from within the district. So, there's no comparison about who drew resources from within the district. I drew far more resources from the people who vote in the 16th district than he did.
Now, what I said was referring to where he had raised money from. It's not a dog whistle of anything. He had a major fundraiser in California. He raised more money in California in the last report than he made from New York. So, it wasn't a dog whistle about California.
And as far as Dearborn, Michigan, is concerned Representative Tlaib and the incumbent formed a joint fundraising committee on February 14th. She draws her money from her district and she's based in Dearborn, Michigan. It's a geographic reference not a demographic reference.
Now, I understand that that in order to try to advance his candidacy, the incumbent tried to turn it into something that it wasn't. But the bottom line is it is clear that he raised money more in proportion outside the district from a nationwide network of donors that included people from those locations and others. That's a fact.
PHILLIP: So, Congressman Bowman is now the first member of the squad to lose their seat since that group started six years ago. What does your victory tonight say about the power of the progressive left and the future for the progressive left when it comes to New York politics?
LATIMER: Well, let's be clear. I'm a progressive. I have done a number of things in my home county. We've passed a clinic access law. We've done a wide range of things to help the LGBTQ community. We've had a black maternal healthcare initiative. We've lowered the cost of childcare for people. We've electrified a bus (ph). All those are progressive goals. This race has been misrepresented by those who want to see it as progressive versus something else. I guess he wanted to frame me as a MAGA conservative, which is absurd.
What it does show is that when you lose touch with your district, when you're not on the ground enough, and when you're more concerned about your national profile that you're on, you know, the major media outlets, but you're not in the neighborhoods that you need to be in all the neighborhoods you need to be in, then you lose the focus and you lose support in your district.
[22:25:11]
I won because I worked hard and I have a record of delivering for the people who live in this area in this community. I may not be a national figure in the years to come. I just want to be a good representative of my district. And I think that's what they voted for tonight.
PHILLIP: George Latimer, fresh off of a huge, huge upset victory tonight in New York. Thank you very much for joining us from your campaign headquarters tonight. Thank you.
LATIMER: Thank you, Abby.
PHILLIP: And up next, it it's not going to be the shit show like the last time. That's the quote tonight reportedly from a Trump adviser. Just 48 hours to go until that debate.
And, plus, former Obama official Jay Carney will join me on his advice for President Biden.
This is NewsNight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:26]
PHILLIP: Forty-seven hours from this very moment, President Biden and Donald Trump will be deep in their debate in the most important moment of this election so far. And tonight, we're getting some new details from each camp about what their strategy is going to be. The Biden team is looking to paint Trump as, quote, "a loser who is too dangerous and reckless to be president a second time."
Meanwhile, Mark Caputo from "The Bulwark" reports that Trump is promising his allies that this debate won't be like the last time when, of course, he threw a chaos grenade into the matchup. One advisor says, quote, "he's waited four years for this. It's not going to be a shit show." We'll see about that.
As far as logistics, we can tell you tonight that Biden has seen the view from the podium through this walkthrough video where he'll be standing now eight feet from Donald Trump. My panel is back with us. They will be so much closer than the last time around when, arguably, Trump may or may not have had COVID. But Trump vowing this won't be a shit show, you believe him? SE CUPP, HOST, "BATTLEGTOUND": I don't. I don't think he can help
himself. And I think two factors here. There's no audience, and that feeds him. And when he doesn't get an applause or a laugh or a yay or a USA line, I think that's going to make him very frustrated. And he's going to keep going and going and going until he makes himself, like soothes himself to feel better about what he's saying.
And then the other thing is, I think cutting the mics is, you know, going to frustrate him and he's still going to want to get under Joe Biden's skin. So I don't know that he's going to be able to restrain himself the way he is saying he will. I think he's going to get very personal with Joe Biden. I think he's going to get very ugly and nasty with Joe Biden. I think it's going to be a S show.
PHILLIP: Joe, I do want to know what you think, because, you know, you are the Republican. Well, both of you are Republicans, but you're the one who's probably the most likely to give the charitable interpretation of what Trump will do on Thursday night. I mean, do you think that Donald Trump can actually control himself on that debate stage when he does not have the feedback of a crowd?
PINION: Look, I think if you're comparing President Trump, even on the stump these days to where he was four years ago, it in some ways has been night and day. I think he has been more restrained, maybe not at the rallies. But I think as you see, look, I think there is the rally speech that you get from President Trump. But I also think that even if you see the press conferences that he was giving outside of those courtrooms, I think that that was a more restrained version of --
CUPP: Hey, hold on, hold on, where he was literally calling for violence against court clerks and attorneys and family members. Are you serious? That's restraint?
PINION: As I said, it was a more restrained version of President Trump --
CUPP: What does he have to do to help people -- just like I would hit some people?
PINION: I would make the argument that is an unfair characterization. But I will say this as it relates specifically to the debate, that the cutting of the mics, in my humble opinion, helps President Trump. I think that if you ask every Republican out there, what do they want to see? They want to see Joe Biden attempting to speak for two hours. And I think any time Joe Biden has to answer questions that is to the benefit of President Trump, it is to the benefit of every single Republican up and down the ballot.
And so I think whether that works or not, whether he can restrain himself or not remains to be seen. But this election is going to be about whether Joe Biden is still up to the job and whether he can actually find anything in his record to hang a hat on. And I think right now, everything that we're hearing from Democrats wanting him to go on the offensive, make it about the actual comportment of President Trump, speaks to the fact that the bread-and-butter issues affecting many Americans from the economy to the border have not actually been working.
AXELROD: I suspect that he's not just going to confine himself to the comportment of President Trump. But there's no doubt that they both have tests that go beyond issues. For Biden, does he have the sort of energy and stamina and can he bring it for 90 minutes and prove that he can control events? Because that's what is in question.
For Trump, it's a question whether he can control himself. And that is a big question, too. I do think I agree that in some ways this is optimal for him because there are some guardrails there. But he's not one who often observes guardrails. And if Biden performs well in the first half of the debate or if Trump, you know, Mike Tyson said, you know, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
[22:35:06]
So, when he gets punched in the face, as he will, and when he gets a question from the moderators that he may not like, the question is, how does he comport himself?
PHILLIP: Or if he gets called the loser over and over again. Well, so you heard what the Democratic source was saying, that they're characterizing Trump as a loser. Nancy Pelosi was on with Anderson Cooper last night. She called him a loser. It kind of sounds like this is going to be the line of, you know, poking the bear to try to get Trump riled up.
BURTON: I think that's right. I mean, in my experience in politics, it's rare to win a debate. I think very often you can lose a debate and that's a much easier path. But in terms of winning, I think that what the Biden campaign is trying to do is like start this in a conversation where they're getting under President Trump's skin and trying to rattle the bear.
But at the end of the day, I think that everything we're talking about right now is the theater of it, right? Like there is a debate where people want to hear about, well, what's the future look like under the next presidential term? What does this conversation mean in their lives, right?
And I think that the media and the pundits, self-included, will spend a lot of time talking about the theater of it. But at the end of the day, people want to know what's in it for their future.
PHILLIP: And I think this is one of the things Hillary Clinton wrote an op-ed. She talked about actually exactly this, basically saying it's a theater, but also focus on some of the things that he actually might say around abortion, around health care, around all kinds of other issues.
CUPP: I think, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about what's going to go wrong for these guys, but they do have some advantages. Joe Biden can talk about reproductive rights. I think he can give really important voice to that, and the threats to democracy. Those are absolutely in his wheelhouse and those work. And Donald Trump needs to just stick to the economy, crime and
immigration, period. End of story. Don't go on about your trials. Don't go on about the --
PHILLIP: Although, immigration is improving, crime is improving. I mean, there are some facts here.
(CROSTALK)
CUPP: No, no, no, but you can't judge voters that what they feel is wrong.
AXELROD: I agree with that.
CUPP: And so Trump's going to appeal to this.
AXELROD: But SE, I think -- and I think the Biden campaign, frankly, in the last few days has flashed a message that is the absolute right message, which is he's focused on people and their problems. Trump is focused on himself. And I think it has to include the economy. Do you want more tax cuts for billionaires or do you want tax cuts for families, for child care?
Do you want to expand the Affordable Care Act and have more protections for people in the health care system? Or do you want to eliminate it? You know there are a series of things that Biden can do that signify I'm on your side. I'm working on your problems. He's working on his.
PINION: I think even to that point specifically, I mean, quickly, you're looking at, again, a tale of two Americas, right? There's a story that Donald Trump wants to tell. There's a story that Joe Biden wants to tell. I think ultimately, to your point, if President Trump is speaking about the issues, the sliver of voters that are still persuadable at this point between two men who have both been president is very small.
And those types of voters, I think, are looking for answers on the border, answers on the economy and answers on whether or not their children are going to end up having to be shipped overseas for one of the wars that are expanding at rapid pace.
PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you very, very much. Great conversations this hour. Up next for us, as I mentioned, Hillary Clinton gives advice to President Biden for the debate, including whether or not to even bother fact-checking Trump. Jay Carney joins me live.
Plus, Trump can now publicly attack witnesses who testified at his New York criminal trial. What that might mean for his sentencing and for future trials, that's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:43:14]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the only person to have debated both President Biden and Donald Trump, who also lost both races, is telling Americans what to keep in mind while they're watching Thursday's big event. Hillary Clinton says that it's a waste of time to try to refute or even fact- check Trump's arguments like a normal debate, using words like nonsense, ranting, raving and blather to describe Trump's tactics.
Joining me now is Jay Carney. He served as President Obama's White House press secretary. He's now with Airbnb. And Jay, we were just discussing, you also know Joe Biden really well. You used to work for him, too.
JAY CARNEY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: I was in the first two years of the Obama administration. I was --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CARNEY: -- Vice President Biden's communications director.
PHILLIP: So when you hear Hillary Clinton's advice, I mean, she really does know what she's talking about.
CARNEY: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: And she faced Trump literally stalking her on that stage. And what do you make of it?
CARNEY: I think she's right. I think the urge when you're in a debate and your opponent says something that is just factually untrue, the urge is to say, no, correct the record. Here are the facts. And it's setting yourself up for frustration and you're giving up opportunities to make the points you want to make because you're on your sort of suddenly debating on your opponent's terms.
And I think President Biden needs to resist that temptation. He should say, I think, you know, sort of colloquial things like that is just baloney. That's malarkey. We all know that's not true. And then go to his point.
PHILLIP: So, something tells me we'll hear a lot of malarkeys --
CARNEY: A lot of malarkeys, yeah.
PHILLIP: A lot of malarkeys. But you also said back in 2020 that you thought it was just not a wise strategy to try to one up Trump in terms of insults or getting on his level, essentially, in terms of how someone tries to respond to him. I mean, do you think that's still true? We were just talking about this term loser that keeps coming up among Democrats. You think they'll try to needle him that way?
[22:45:02]
CARNEY: I think it is true that you have to emerge if you're Donald Trump's opponent. You want to emerge as the candidate, the option who seems more serious, more plausible, safer, more reliable as president as a choice. But I think you do need to be aggressive. And I think especially President Biden needs to show that he's still got fight in him. He's not going to take a punch and not punch back. PHILLIP: Franklin's made the observation debates are more about vibes
than anything else. That's probably more true now than at any other time when you have two people who need to kind of convey a certain persona. I mean, do you think that that is the kind of coaching that President Biden is getting up at Camp David right now? How to present himself to the American public, like you said, to show that he has vigor?
CARNEY: I think, yes, that he has vigor and that he still wants to fight for the American people. He's been doing this for a long time as senator, as vice president, as president. And he needs to show that he has, you know, the desire, the passion to keep fighting for the American people and that he's a better choice, obviously.
The reason why it's so important that this debate is happening now this early in the cycle is I think a lot of Americans, because they've seen this movie before, have been like not really wanting to know that it's happening and resisting having to engage. And I think this makes clear to everyone who imagines a world where there might be different candidates that there aren't. These are your choices and you're going to have to focus on it.
PHILLIP: I want to play a little bit of what your other former boss, former President Obama, had to say a couple of months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARAK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's not just the negative case against the presumptive nominee on the other side. It's the positive case for somebody who's done an outstanding job in the presidency. You've got record-breaking job growth. You've got an unemployment rate that is as low as it has been for African-Americans, by the way, lowest on record ever.
We also have a positive story to tell about the future, and that is something that Joe Biden has worked on diligently each and every day on behalf of working Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARNEY: That guy is good.
PHILLIP: Look, I got to say, that is what you would expect to hear, right, from a Democrat right now. However, I mean, CNN's reporting this week is that Biden is being advised not to harp on what he believes are his accomplishments. Don't brag. Don't, you know, don't rub it in the American public's face about what they might not be feeling.
CARNEY: Yes, I think they're coaching him in that direction so that he doesn't overdo the defense of his record, because, you know, just like these debates are often about vibes, how viewers are taking them in is about how they're also feeling. So if any candidate, an incumbent, is arguing something strongly that doesn't resonate with an American, like that the economy is great, but it's not great for me personally, that creates risk. So I think counterpunching on the facts, like when Trump, you know,
talks about the greatest economy ever, all that kind of stuff, it's like, no, you know, I've created more jobs. The economy is going at a faster pace, you know, employment rate is historically low and inflation is coming down. But here's what I'm going to do for you in the future, just that fast. And that's going to be the challenge.
PHILLIP: So in 2012, as I'm sure you well remember, President Obama's first debate with Mitt Romney was a disaster. And he's, as you just said, he's generally pretty good at this kind of thing. I mean, there are risks here for an incumbent, sitting president especially.
CARNEY: I think that they will use, I'm sure, I know they're using that example because obviously Joe Biden was there. He had his own debate as vice president. He knows and remembers the consequences of the fact that President Obama went in thinking he could have a reasoned, serious discussion with Mitt Romney and that people would understand, you know, that he was the better candidate. It's just he wasn't in his like really strong game mode. And I think --
PHILLIP: He had a second chance.
CARNEY: He had a second chance.
PHILLIP: Will Joe Biden get really a second chance?
CARNEY: Well, we don't know whether --
PHILLIP: I mean, in terms of the from the perspective of the voter who's looking at these.
CARNEY: I think that the stakes are enormously high. And I think that's why it's important for the folks who are prepping President Biden to show him that, remind him that of what happened to President Obama. And he's not alone. Like incumbent presidents prior to Obama have had bad first debates. And if there's only one debate, you can't risk that.
PHILLIP: Yeah. And, you know, first impressions, they really matter. Jay Carney, thank you very much for being here.
CARNEY: Thank you.
PHILLIP: And Donald Trump can now attack the witnesses and the jurors who convicted him in New York. But as he awaits sentencing, could that ultimately impact the judge's decision down in in New York? We'll discuss that coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:54:50]
PHILLIP: And tonight, Donald Trump has the green light now to start attacking witnesses in the hush money case and the jurors who convicted him. Judge Merchan partially lifting Trump's gag order as he awaits sentencing next month. [22:55:00]
Now, that means if he insults Michael Cohen or Stormy Daniels, he won't be punished again. However, Trump still can't identify the jurors nor can he attack any prosecutor or court staff. Joining me now, civil and criminal attorney Donte Mills and also with us, former Trump impeachment attorney Michael Van Der Veen. He's also the former Trump organization attorney in the New York tax trial. Michael, do you think this was the right move to lift part of this gag order and leave the other part in place?
MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Undoubtedly. I think it was the right decision by the judge. It actually seems like he had the right measure in his approach to making this decision and issuing this order. Going after the witnesses in the trial and really trying to put his spin on what he thinks happened in the trial is something that should be allowed now.
He hasn't been sentenced yet. There are still court personnel involved. It's important to protect the court personnel as much as possible. And frankly, I don't think jurors' names should ever be used in public. It's a sanctuary where they are in that room and they should have that same protection when --
DONTE MILLS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Mike 100 percent. The judge did the right thing and what he was supposed to do because those protections are ending as parts of the trial are over. If I'm Donald Trump's attorney, I was hoping that he did not, because you don't know what Donald Trump is going to say. He could impact his own sentencing.
PHILLIP: Right. Yeah. I mean, you think that if he starts attacking -- I mean, what if he -- what if he does what he's allowed to do, which is attack the witnesses? I mean, would that impact it or would it only be if he then goes the step further and --
MILLS: So if he goes a step further and violates the gag order, there could be penalty. But we can't sit here and say if Trump doesn't start to bash the people that's involved in this, the witnesses, even the jurors, that that won't come into the courtroom during his sentencing and it won't be in the mind of the judge.
And the judge may factor that in because clearly, it's not Trump showing remorse. It's not Trump showing that he understands that he did something wrong and that could impact the sentencing here. He could get a harsher sentence if he speaks in certain ways.
VAN DER VEEN: You know, Trump's never going to show remorse, certainly between now and the time of the sentencing, because he's going to appeal the case. He says he's innocent. He's going to go his appellate route. It'd be, you know, counterintuitive --
MILLS: I'm expecting remorse, I'll say. Maybe I'll change remorse for respect for the court --
VAN DER VEEN: Yeah, maybe that's -- and that's something he's always going to want to show. Because that's going to be important for how the judge views him. But, you know, Juan Merchan was a prosecutor for so long, he's been a judge for so long. He's seen so much going through his courtroom. I think he's going to -- I think he -- first of all, I think he already knows what he's going to do in a sentence. But I think he's going to really not be affected by anything Donald Trump says --
PHILLIP: What do you think Judge Merchan is going to ultimately do here?
MILLS: I hope he say -- I think he's going to send him to jail, at least for a short period, because a point has to be made that you can't continue this behavior. We have to remember, this is a defendant who is doing the same thing. He's running for an election when he was convicted of a crime that was involved him running in an election. So I think a point has to be made. If it doesn't, we run the risk of Donald Trump doing the same thing.
VAN DER VEEN: Yeah, that's a good point. But really, I don't think he sends him to jail. First of all, the level of the crime, no prior convictions. If you just took him as a defendant, he wouldn't see any jail time. It's a probationary sentence. And he really shouldn't be sentenced any higher just because of who he is, you know, justice, she's blind and he is supposed to be treated like everybody else. If he is, there's no jail time.
PHILLIP: I wonder what you think Trump's conduct now that this gag order is partially lifted will have on Judge Cannon down in Florida, who's also weighing whether or not he should be under a gag order. How is she looking at what happens in New York?
MILLS: I think this makes it less likely she's going to issue a gag order because Judge Merchan is really playing tight by the rules and very limited in what the gag order was. It was only about the families, the jurors, things like that. And he's lifting it appropriately as they go along.
So I think Judge Cannon is going to look at this and say, well, no, you're supposed to have freedom of speech and it's supposed to be very restricted. They haven't shown any specific threats in Florida. So I don't think she's going to issue a gag order. And I think it's going to be assisted by what's happened here in New York.
VAN DER VEEN: Yeah, I think Donte's right. If you listen to the arguments in her comments yesterday in court, I think the bigger thing on her plate right now are those motions to suppress. I mean, the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment constitutional arguments that they made today have some meat and have some legs. So she's got to have her hands full on those decisions coming up. Gag order is kind of deminuous.
PHILLIP: Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, they're asking for something that's not different from in New York.
[23:00:00]
They're asking to gag him from attacking the FBI and law enforcement.
MILLS: The FBI. They're part of the process, but they're not witnesses, they're not jurors, they're not family members --
