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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Harris And Gov. Tim Walz (D-MN) To Sit Down For First Interview With CNN; Harris And Trump Campaigns At Odds Over Debate Rules; Special Counsel Jack Smith Files A Superseding Indictment In The Election Interference Case Against Donald Trump; Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson Speaks On Immunity ruling; "NewsNight" Panel Discusses Inflation Under The Biden-Harris Administration. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 27, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, breaking news, Kamala Harris and Tim Walz sit down for their first interview right here on CNN. It's a high-stakes interview for the new ticket. We'll discuss the biggest questions voters want to hear.
And on the verge of a deal, the debate of the season two weeks from today, as Harris and Trump inch closer to a face off.
Plus, if at first you don't succeed, indict again. Jack Smith reworks the indictment against Trump in the election interference case. What does it mean for the campaign?
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Bakari Sellers, Doug Heye, and Lauren Leader. Welcome to a special edition of NewsNight, State of the Race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America is talking about tonight, an interview 37 days in the making. That is how long it's been since President Biden dropped out of the race, believe it or not. It's also how long Kamala Harris has evaded a media interview. And now, Harris and her running mate, Tim Walz, will finally sit down for that interview right here on CNN with Dana Bash. It'll air this 9:00 P.M.
So, let's talk about what is at stake here. This is the long awaited interview. It is happening. This is also an extremely high-stakes moment of the campaign's own making, Bakari.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes I kind of push back on the framing. I don't think it's that high-stakes. I don't think that it's this something that is just this rare thing that's just happening. In fact, she's done over 80 interviews this year alone, if I'm last checking. She's been to 22 -- she's visited 22 states. PHILLIP: Yes, but none of the interviews have happened in the last 37 days.
SELLERS: Yes. But, I mean, to act like she hasn't done an interview is still just, I think, that's not the case. But she is coming out. She's doing Dana Bash. She'll do more after that. And I think people have to realize that the traditional media is not what's guiding this campaign. In fact, what I would like for her to do, and what I've told everyone, is that I want her to be able to do black radio, and go on and call in a Ricky Smiley. I want her to be able to call into the Atlanta or Milwaukee or Philadelphia radio stations. I want her to call into Paul Feinbaum. It's college football season. I want her to do things that are outside of the beltway and nontraditional. But to act like she hasn't done an interview, in fact, the interview that started this --
PHILLIP: Bakari, just to be clear, I am not acting --
SELLERS: The political world has changed in the past month.
PHILLIP: I'm not acting like she hasn't done an interview.
SELLERS: You were at the convention. The world has changed. But the fact is she actually -- she led off this campaign with the interview with Anderson Cooper on our network. I mean, it was a great interview.
PHILLIP: Let's take a step back here, because I do think, you know, the question is why in the last 37 days have they avoided doing all the things you just listed there? And maybe the answer has to do with -- I'm going to play this because this is one of the things that Republicans keep playing over and over again. And it might be part of the origin story behind why we keep talking about whether Vice President Harris is doing interviews. This is her on Lester Holt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Do you have any plans to visit the border?
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm here in Guatemala today. At some point, you know, we are going to the border. We've been to the border. So, this whole thing about the border, we've been to the border. We've been to the border.
HOLT: You haven't been to the border.
HARRIS: And I haven't been to Europe. I don't understand the point that you're making.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Woof. I mean, rough moment.
PHILLIP: That was three years ago though.
JENNINGS: Yes.
PHILLIP: But, I mean, Republicans are still using it in ads right now.
JENNINGS: Yes.
LAUREN LEADER, CEO, ALL IN TOGETHER AND HOST, MAJORITY RULES: There's nothing else really to run at the moment. I mean, that's part of it. I mean, and, look, and Bakari is right, the other part of this is that they've, you know, we had a historic convention in that they brought in what, 150 creators, social media creators, who right now, I mean, and, obviously, we all love being on cable television, the fact is the young people don't get their news that way. And they've been extraordinarily effective in bringing their message to young people through the mediums that they use, which has mostly been social media. So, it's not to say she shouldn't do these interviews, but it is a new world. In the same way that Obama, you know, leveraged was sort of the first internet campaign.
[22:05:05]
SELLERS: You said that much better than I did.
LEADER: I thought so.
JENNINGS: It has nothing to do with whether she can do content creators or Paul Feinbaum, whatever. It has everything to do with whether she can answer a hard question. And I'm sorry, bringing in your TikTokers or whatever, she's not exactly going to be exploring that --
SELLERS: Wow. That condescension is not going to do well for the campaign.
JENNINGS: What campaign?
LEADER: I'm just saying it's a new media world.
JENNINGS: The reality is, she hasn't answered a single hard question, and now they finally signed up for some, and she's got to bring along an emotional support animal at the same time.
LEADER: But you know what, whatever --
JENNINGS: So, I mean, it's a lack of confidence.
LEADER: And it's working for her. It's working.
DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: This is the easiest way this could have been done. When she made the announcement for Tim Walz, two or three days later, the two of them sit down for the joint interview, where the whole conversation is, you're the nominee, you're the new V.P. nominee, and you can tell that story in a positive way as you want to, and, yes, you would have gotten some tough questions.
But my point is, to introduce your nominee that no one knows, and to try and introduce some of Kamala Harris that no one knows, and I say that not to be facetious, but if you go on kamalaharris.com right now, or at least 30 minutes ago, as I did, the amount of policy that is on her page, and I don't mean good policy, bad policy, what I agree with, what I disagree with is zero. There's a bio of her, there's a bio of Tim Walz, buy your camouflage hat, buy your T-shirt, donate, that is it. So, people want to know who Kamala Harris is, and Republicans are saying, she's this word salad that can't answer questions.
LEADER: Because President Trump is the policy wonk? I mean --
SELLERS: But, respectfully, Google is free, right? And if we want to go through policies, I literally just posted them on my I.G. --
HEYE: Wouldn't she want to put them on her page?
SELLERS: But middle class tax cuts, lower housing costs, lower medical costs.
JENNINGS: Those policies aren't policies. Those are goals.
SELLERS: But we have -- but, you know, you have tax --
JENNINGS: I want to sprout wings and fly around. But that's like -- that's not a plan.
HEYE: There's good chance of that. But why would she not put that on her webpage?
SELLERS: But my point is that --
HEYE: Or on the shows you talked about?
SELLERS: My point is that, respectfully, to my good friends on the Republican side of the aisle and my good friend who's a part of the media tonight, things are --
JENNINGS: You are part of the media too. Do you work here?
SELLERS: Things have changed.
HEYE: Exactly.
SELLERS: Like there's no reason for you to have to do a sit down with a Lester Holt or whomever it is. You just don't have to do that anymore. And we're not -- and the campaign is not kowtowing to that.
LEADER: And it's working. I mean, what is --
(CROSSTALKS)
HEYE: (INAUDIBLE) introduce you and your new face?
LEADER: She just did that for five days at the convention.
PHILLIP: I'm going to interject here because --
LEADER: It doesn't matter.
PHILLIP: And we cannot be talking as if this interview is not happening. It is happening.
LEADER: Yes.
SELLERS: Good.
LEADER: And Dana's going to be amazing.
PHILLIP: If she felt like she didn't have to do it, she wouldn't be doing it. She is doing an interview.
HEYE: But, I mean, she's done it. Bakari is for it. Before, he was against it, which is interesting.
SELLERS: No. She's doing it on her own side.
PHILLIP: Here's the other thing. One of the things that I wonder about, I'm going to play, this is, I think, a moment I've talked to a lot of Democrats about. This is what happened right after, just moments after Joe Biden walked off that debate stage and Harris had to do an interview right here on CNN. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: People can debate on style points, but, ultimately, this election and who is the president of the United States has to be about substance. And the contrast is clear. Look at what happened during the course of the debate. Donald Trump lied over and over and over again, as he is wont to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: She was steely. She was solid. That's what all the Democrats were telling me after that interview. Republicans are stuck three years ago. It seems like things have changed. I mean, she has gotten on shore footing.
JENNINGS: She is much better behind a podium, off of a teleprompter, that part of the job, no question.
PHILLIP: I mean, that was not behind a teleprompter.
JENNINGS: But this part of the job, since she has become the nominee, we don't know. And she was answering questions about Joe Biden that night. Now she's got to answer questions about herself. She has an economic policy that has come out, which she got panned for. She'll have to answer questions about that. But mostly I think she'll have to answer questions about how is it that you gave up everything you used to believe to run in this election this year and how do you square your job for Joe Biden with the fact that the American people do not like the results of it?
SELLERS: And I think that the answers to those questions are quite easy. I mean, the fact is that things change over time. JENNINGS: Everything?
SELLERS: Not everything. But let's take the fact that Axios ran this big piece today about her flip flopping on the border wall. That's not flip flopping. That's actual governing. What happened was you had Senator Lankford, who was the most conservative member of the United States Senate, actually come up with a piece of legislation, worked with Democrats on it, and she's saying, you know what, that is good for the American public. Does it have border wall funding in it? Yes, I'm going to sign it. Do I believe in this fully? Would I run on this? Would I do this or that? I don't know. But the answer to the question is, this is the -- it's like you -- have you ever seen conjunction junction? What's your function?
HEYE: What's your function?
SELLERS: That is the way the process worked out. And after conjunction junction worked out, she's going to sign the piece of legislation that will make our country stronger on the border, and, yes, it will build a border wall.
[22:10:00]
These questions are not difficult. But what I want to push back on is --
PHILLIP: Okay. Well then, in which case, it shouldn't be a question about whether or not she ought to be doing an interview. Whatever happened and? You know, she can do the social media, she can do the TikToks.
LEADER: All of this is presuming that she was refusing to do it. I mean, they've said for weeks that they would, and it takes time to negotiate these, and she wants it on her terms. And she's entitled to do that. And she picked the reporter that she wanted from this network who all of us respect. I don't think it's fair to say she was avoiding it.
PHILLIP: And I think Bakari seems to be making the argument that she shouldn't do it, doesn't need to do it.
SELLERS: That's not my argument.
PHILLIP: But she's doing it.
SELLERS: No. That's not my argument at all. My argument fully is that she should disabuse everyone of the notion that mainstream media gets to dictate when you get an interview and how you get an interview. Look, if you want to do an interview with Dana Bash, I love it. I think that is a perfect opportunity at this particular time. To say she should have done it two weeks ago, I don't believe in that. To say she should do four or five or six or seven interviews with this person or that person, I don't believe in that. You know why? Because there are 160 million people who also do not believe in that. Those are voters in this country. So, she is going to do this interview and then she's going to move on. And the question will be, well, why didn't she do us or when is she going to do this?
LEADER: The minute the criticism emerged that she wasn't talking to the press, she got off Air Force Two and walked straight up to the press corps and ask them for their questions on the spot and ask them to shoot questions at her completely spontaneously.
I think what I do not see any of this narrative that she's avoiding any of it, first of all, she's, as you've said, been the nominee for less than a week. Officially, it's 37 days. It's an incredibly compressed timeline. They had a convention to do, a team to put together, et cetera. Is that an excuse? No. But the fact is, what they are doing is working for them. She's surging in the polls. They've capitalized on huge enthusiasm, and they killed it at the DNC. I don't see the problem.
PHILLIP: Let me just -- look, one of the things I kind of wondered about in all this conversation is, when was the last time Donald Trump really sat down for a straight, you know, not sycophantic, just straight up --
JENNINGS: He just did a 90-minute press conference the other day.
SELLERS: That's not what she asked.
JENNINGS: He sat down with everybody.
SELLERS: That wasn't the real question.
PHILLIP: I take that point.
JENNINGS: Do you not think that was a real question?
SELLERS: That's not the point.
JENNINGS: In fact, he's done two press conferences.
PHILLIP: I get it. He's done a press conference. But tonight, this is -- he was on with Dr. Phil, who's a bit of a fan, but watch.
HEYE: That's what -- Bakari, you want her on Dr. Phil, right?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Have Democrats play a different game. You have ballot harvesting, but you also have people getting ballots. I mean, in California, you have people getting seven ballots.
If Jesus came down and was the vote counter, I would win California, okay?
If we had an honest vote counter, I would win California.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, T.V. HOST: Do you think so?
TRUMP: Oh, I think so. I do. I see it. I go around California, they have Trump signs all over the place. It's very dishonest. Everything is mail in. They send out 38 million ballots. I think it is around 36, 38 million ballots, they send them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I wish we could have had a reaction cam for Bakari and Scott --
JENNINGS: They do get multiple ballots. People do get ballots out --
PHILLIP: -- during that clip because --
SELLERS: No, he wasn't talking about Jesus. He was talking about Jesus Gonzalez. That is who he -- what? Like that is --
JENNINGS: What's more likely? That Jesus comes down and counts the ballots, or Jesus came down and told Joe Biden to drop out of the race, which --
SELLERS: Anyway.
PHILLIP: Anyway. But the point is, I know that Doug wanted to get in with a serious point, but the point about Donald Trump is that, obviously, he's constantly being graded on a curve. He's not sitting down with a Lester Holt or a Dana Bash or anything like that. And he's doing those kinds of interviews and still can't stay in a straight line.
HEYE: No, I think this is the real problem that the Trump campaign has. They go on message and stay on it a little bit and then Trump goes crazy off.
But let me say something about Dana Bash. And I think there's a reason that Dana is maybe the best person to do this interview. She's covered both of them on the Capitol. And I can tell you when working in House leadership, when Dana calls you and you don't have a good answer, you don't answer the phone, because you don't have a good answer and Dana is going to get you.
And if I'm Tim Walz, and if I'm Kamala Harris, I'm really nervous about doing this one with Dana because she knows where all the bodies are buried in the House and in the Senate. And a lot of the people who have been talked about at other networks, who are qualified hosts and all that, they don't have that depth of knowledge that she has.
SELLERS: Listen, I think your point is very well taken, because at the end of the day I don't think people on my side of the aisle are going to like Dana Bash, and I don't think people on the other side of the aisle are going to like Dana Bash, which means she's going to do a pitch perfect interview. And I think that is what we need and that's what people want.
The American public -- and that goes back to my entire point. The American public does not want to hear us saying that, oh my God, she should do an interview on day 10 or day 12, and it should be with this person or that person. It's organic. The entire Kamala Harris campaign has been organic. And so now we're --
JENNINGS: What? Organic?
[22:15:00]
This is the literal, most manufactured presidential campaign ever. She didn't even run. It's the opposite of organic.
SELLERS: Can I ask you one question? Like you've been a part of a lot of campaigns, right, a ton of campaigns.
JENNINGS: And in every one --
SELLERS: And how many campaigns in your manufacturing have you been able to manufacture 400,000 volunteers or $540 million. Or how about this? 4 percent of the electorate, 4 percent of the entire electorate in the state of Georgia has volunteered for Kamala Harris.
JENNINGS: If you believe that, I got --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I'll end this portion of the conversation by agreeing. Dana Bash will do an excellent job --
SELLERS: Can we switch seats?
PHILLIP: -- an excellent job on Thursday.
Everyone stick around for us. Coming up next, Harris and Trump, they're moving closer to their face-off on the debate stage, but it looks like there's still one little sticking point left. A special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat to discuss that. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Deal or no deal? Donald Trump is telling his supporters that he has reached an agreement to debate Kamala Harris next month, but the Harris campaign is saying, not so fast. Here's what the sticking point is, the microphones. The vice president's camp wants to reverse the rule of muting the opponent's mic during an answer, but it's also something that Trump wanted until today.
The Harris campaign trolled Trump about this, you know, with a funny video about chickens yesterday and a spokesperson also writing in a statement, it appears that Donald Trump is letting his handlers overrule him. Sad.
Former Senator Al Franken joins us at the table. He's also host of the Al Franken Podcast. Muted or unmuted, which one do you think is going to help which camp?
FMR. SEN. AL FRANKEN (D-MN): I think that it doesn't make any difference, but if it does make a difference, unmuted will help Harris, because -- and I think he does, he wants it unmuted, but his team doesn't, and I think he wins out. And then I think eventually he just starts talking over her rudely and he loses. Isn't that about -- wouldn't that --
JENNINGS: Well, where does it stand? Because he said today they had a deal on the CNN rules and then now it seems like -- so where does it stand?
LEADER: He said something that might not have been true.
PHILLIP: It sounds like, I mean, if only one side is saying and the other side's not, that there's no deal. I mean, Trump seems to want to kind of make it seem like there's a deal to sort of force the Harris camp's hand, and it's not working.
JENNINGS: I mean, do you know that for sure or are we just -- I mean, I haven't heard. I don't particularly care how they do it, but I thought it was noteworthy that he said they thought they had achieved a deal on the rules that he already used to debate Joe Biden out of his own career. And so I don't know why she's hesitating. Just show up and do the thing. Why should it matter so much?
SELLERS: Why are you looking at me? I was just trying to -- I was like, Doug, chime in. Like what is this? WWF? I mean, chime in and tag him in.
No, I mean, look, everybody knows, everybody who's watched this knows that Donald Trump needs a muted mic. Like that's why his team wants a muted mic.
FRANKEN: Except for Donald Trump.
SELLERS: because he may call her absolutely anything.
FRANKEN: Yes.
SELLERS: Like he may call her every single word, and we talk about this on text messages, and please God let the FBI rush her never get my text messages, but he's going to call her every name under the sun and to castigate her and he might do it actually in public. That's the best thing that could happen to the Harris campaign. But he has no self control.
And so one of the things -- and this is what most people don't know, one of the things that Biden campaign was actually worried about was the fact that they were so close together during the first debate. Now, mind you, they should have been worried about some other stuff, but the fact that they were only six feet apart bothered the campaign so much. That was the number one thing --
FRANKEN: They felt that he could be heard over --
SELLERS: He could be heard and it wouldn't startle Joe Biden, although the public, I said --
JENNINGS: We were startled. That's true. He wasn't. We were.
SELLERS: listening. We lost the debate. Can we leave by God? You won that. Okay. So, that was the number one thing.
FRANKEN: Congratulations.
SELLERS: But I also think sometimes When Donald Trump is speaking, Kamala Harris needs to call B.S. where it lies. And so in order to be able to check him, as we say, colloquially, she needs to be able to do that live.
PHILLIP: That's a very interesting point that he, that you just made because the biggest complaint after the Biden-Trump debate was that. Trump wasn't fact-checked, and some of it was also that Biden didn't fact-check him, and some of it might have also been that with that format, with the mics muted, it would have been very difficult for him to interject in order to fact-check. So, there's a structural issue here.
HEYE: Biden was lifeless in that debate. I don't think he was going to be able to fact-check anybody. But the reality is, this is not what the American people are interested in. This is not what they're talking about. At every campaign, you certainly dealt with it in your Senate campaigns, and whether you're running for president or dog catcher, unless that's an appointed position, has a debate about the debates.
And what's the format going to be, how many, where they're going to be, any place, anytime, anywhere, or only two or three, or only zero, and unless it's the incumbent, who doesn't want to do any because it puts them in a vulnerability, the voters do not care.
This will matter when there's a debate. And when it's Donald Trump versus Kamala Harris, that will matter. When it's J.D. Vance versus Tim Walz, no one's going to care, even though we'll all talk about it a lot.
FRANKEN: We are having Harris versus Trump, and the question is going to be --
HEYE: And when that happens, that's going to matter.
FRANKEN: Okay. And so will it matter that he can speak while she's speaking?
[22:25:04]
HEYE: I mean, I think it could as a parlor game, but voters aren't focused on that.
PHILLIP: Well, let me -- okay, well, let me play and take you guys down memory lane of just the I'm speaking of it all is one of the things that perhaps the Harris campaign wants to recreate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: No. But, Susan, this is important.
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Susan, I have to weigh in here.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking.
PENCE: I have to weigh in.
HARRIS: I'm speaking. I'm speaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have 15 more seconds, and then we'll give the vice president a chance to respond.
HARRIS: Joe Biden has been very clear. He will not raise taxes on anybody who makes less than $400,000 a year.
PENCE: He said he was going to repeal the Trump tax cuts.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking. I'm speaking.
PENCE: It would be important if you said the truth.
Is he only going to repeal part of the Trump tax cuts?
HARRIS: If you don't mind letting me finish. We can then have a conversation, okay?
PENCE: Please.
HARRIS: Okay. Let's talk about that.
PENCE: Please.
HARRIS: Yes, I'm about to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEADER: I mean it was like panic (ph). All I can feel --
PHILLIP: Listen, all I will say is that it was not --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Wait a minute. You're watching it right now. That is just what happened right there. So, women oftentimes in the workplace try to be able to get their voices heard and then men try to speak over that --
LEADER: I have never noticed that.
SELLERS: Did you ever notice that?
LEADER: Abby, has that ever happened to you?
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, Lauren, let me let you finish your point.
FRANKEN: Why? I'm speaking.
PHILLIP: Both of these men attempted to intervene here.
HEYE: He has the floor. Is that right?
FRANKEN: No, I don't. I just said I'm sitting here.
LEADER: Thank you, Abby. That's lovely. Thank you. No, look. I mean, they are counting on the debates being a kind of catharsis for Democrats to redeem what happened in the last debate. And there are lots of women and I think lots of Democratic voters who are dying to see this matchup and who know exactly what this will be and that she has proven over and over again.
I mean, you saw the videos during the DNC, the videos playing the clips of her grilling people from the Senate chamber. I mean, this is what she's known for as a prosecutor. And there are a lot of supporters who want to see her prosecute the case against him live and know that he is incredibly vulnerable in an environment where she knows how to poke the bear. And that is what the campaign's been doing with social media. They have been continuously poking the bear.
JENNINGS: That's half of it. Of course, they want to see her attack Donald Trump. But what I think they ought to be less anxious for is for her to have to answer questions about her own record. And that's the purpose of a debate. You don't get to sit there and pummel the other person for 90 minutes. You also have to answer questions and she's got a bunch of them.
FRANKEN: Every word he said in the last debate with Biden, that Trump had with Biden, every word out of Trump's mouth was not true.
JENNINGS: Every word?
LEADER: Most of it.
FRANKEN: Every word. No, I don't know if it's every word, but, virtually, every word if, and, of course, CNN wouldn't correct things. That was part of the rules of that debate. I don't know what the rules of this debate are, but that was overlooked because of Biden was in the state that he was in. But Trump has a hard time saying things that are true,
HEYE: What Trump does well is he picks up a pile of sand and he throws it in his opponent's eyes, and if I'm the Harris campaign, I'm less concerned about microphones on and off than how is she going to react to whatever that pile of sand Donald Trump's going to bring with him. We saw how it affected Hillary Clinton in that first debate when he, I thought, very tastelessly brought people to that debate who had no business being there. How is Harris prepared for Donald Trump when he tries to throw sand in her eyes?
SELLERS: I'm not worried about that part.
JENNINGS: Why are you talking over her?
SELLERS: I just did it.
JENNINGS: She's --
SELLERS: I mean, you literally did it.
JENNINGS: She's literally trying to talk.
PHILLIP: Okay, you know what?
LEADER: I love two men arguing about how to be more respectful to women.
SELLERS: And that is my goal in life because my wife is watching this show.
PHILLIP: You know what, on that note, I'm going to cut you off, Bakari.
HEYE: No more Bakaris for you.
PHILLIP: I'm speaking.
Coming up, breaking tonight, Special Counsel Jack Smith is filing an indictment in the federal election interference case. Will this meet the Supreme Court's new standards? My panel will discuss that coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:33:20]
PHILLIP: Breaking tonight, special counsel Jack Smith filing a superseding indictment in the election interference case against Donald Trump. That move comes just weeks after the Supreme Court granted Trump broad immunity.
I'm back with my panel here along with civil and criminal attorney Donte Mills. So, Dante, walk us through the biggest strategic changes that Jack Smith made as they filed this superseding indictment to try to meet the bar that the Supreme Court put for them. Sure.
DONTE MILLS, NATIONAL TRIAL ATTORNEY, MILLS AND EDWARDS, LLP: Sure. So, here's the breakdown. Former President Trump is still charged with the same four counts of conspiracy and obstruction to remain in power. The difference is they're not charging President Trump, they're charging candidate Trump.
PHILLIP: Right.
MILLS: So, what the Supreme Court said is you cannot. There's a presumption of -- there's a presumption when you have sitting presidents that you can't bring lawsuits against them, right? So, what they did is they changed the basis of that indictment. about the candidate, not the president. So, what they're saying is the person running for office, he doesn't have immunity. There's no presumption of immunity for the candidate. But as the
president, we can't. So, they took out the allegations of any conversation that he had as president, but conversations he had as candidate, it can still work.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
LEADER: So, the DOJ stuff came out.
PHILLIP: The DOJ stuff is out.
LEADER: The text messages --
PHILLIP: However, so here's one of the ways that they did that. This is a focus on the electoral college certification proceedings that -- that's part of the charges against him.
[22:35:04]
They write, "The defendant has no official responsibilities related to the certification proceeding, but he did have a personal interest as a candidate in being named the winner of the election." So, they really, in some ways, spelled it out pretty explicitly. No official purpose. This was only done in a personal capacity as a candidate.
MILLS: Yeah. So, here's how it breaks down. They took out the Department of Justice stuff because there's no reason a candidate would be talking to the Department of Justice. There are some things with Vice President Pence that they remained in there because although he was a vice president, he was Donald Trump's -- he was on Donald Trump's ticket.
PHILLIP: Right.
MILLS: So, that did remain. I think the fatal flaw though is going to be -- there's a different dynamic of power when you're talking about a president saying, for example, on a phone call, I need to find 70,000 votes as opposed to a candidate.
It doesn't have the same push to it that a president does. And I think that's what the fatal flaw of this indictment is going to be, because how do you prove that a candidate tried to remain in power when you can't assert anything against that he did as a president?
PHILLIP: Well, he, I mean, first of all, Donte's a very good criminal defense attorney, so, we're going to give him that. But the idea that Trump in any capacity would call an election official in Georgia and say, I need this number of votes, exactly the number of votes that would be required to win the state. I mean, just on its face that seems improper borderline, like something that is chargeable content.
SELLERS: I had to take the bar two more times than him to pass it, so I don't know why you're looking at me. But don't go to Scott, either. I do believe - I do believe, one of the things that happened also is that he -- Jack Smith actually laid out in his indictment the fact that everybody he was dealing with were private citizens, as well. And so, when you look at the indictment, it's not just dealing with
indictment X, Y, Z in their official capacity. He's talking about them as private citizens. And so, what he's trying to do is, and what I think he actually has done, is make this a non-appealable issue.
PHILLIP: Right.
SELLERS: Make this an issue that can go before -- make this an issue that can go before the judge and actually bring Donald Trump into a court of law. At the end of the day though, what Democrats have to realize, and these are Democrats, and I'm only speaking of Democrats, is that you are not going to beat Donald Trump in the court of law. You can't focus on that. That is -- that is --
PHILLIP: But that's not what this is about. This is not coming to trial anytime before the election.
SELLERS: And I get that. No, no, no. And that is -- and there were a lot of people for the last three -- four years, that maybe we can beat Donald Trump with this, or maybe you can beat him with that. You have to beat Donald Trump at the ballot box. That's the only thing.
LEADER: And also, he's a citizen who is -- should be held accountable if laws were broken, just like every other citizen, which is one of the bedrock foundational principles of the United States, which is that no person is above the law. So, yes, it's not a political strategy. It's never been a political strategy.
But I think Jack Smith was incredibly smart in the way that he did this, because to your point, Abby, he takes off the table anything that might have called into question the rest of the accounts, which really are at the heart of this, which was someone trying to overturn an election and supersede the will of the people.
MILLS: Donald Trump already won because he delayed this past the election.
LEADER: Fair enough.
MILLS: But they say he already won this case.
SELLERS: But my biggest problem is that the United States Supreme Court actually -
LEADER: That's the biggest issue.
SELLERS: -- threw just an arrow in the heart of what you're talking about.
LEADER: Absolutely.
SELLERS: Because what they did say is that, yeah, you know, all of us are in one space, but there is one person who's above the law, which is the --
MILLS: That's not true. We cannot say that. They said it's a presumption of immunity. That means we're going to assume that you're acting in your presidential capacity. However, it can be shown that you were not. It's not hardline immunity. It's a presumption. So as president, you get the benefit of doubt.
SELLERS: Tell me what that presumptive -- and why does the president, first of all, the president gets that benefit of that.
MILLS: I'll tell you why.
SELLERS: Give me examples of what that looks like. Because I understand --
PHILLIP: Hold on. Before you do that, let me just play, because we don't often get to hear from the justices themselves about these rulings. We do have a little bit from Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, who recently did an interview and talked about her dissent in this case and her concerns about this immunity ruling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I was concerned about a system that appeared to provide immunity for one individual under one set of circumstances when we have a criminal justice system that had ordinarily treated everyone the same.
NORAH O'DONNEL, CBS NEWS HOST: Are you prepared that this election could end up before the Supreme Court?
BROWN JACKSON: as prepared as anyone can be. Let me ask you, are you prepared for all of the news cycles that you're getting as a result of this election?
O'DONNELL: No.
BROWN JACKSON: No, exactly. I mean, I think there are legal issues that arise out of the political process, and so the Supreme Court has to be prepared to respond if that should be necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:40:00]
PHILLIP: One -- one particular person under one particular set of circumstances, she couldn't have been more explicit.
SELLERS: That was my question.
MILLS: We're talking about the office of the President of the United States.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
MILLS: They do sit in a different category than everybody else. And I believe hard in the rule of law. And the framers made it clear there should be a separation of powers. We don't want the Supreme Court making a decision to stop Donald Trump. They made that decision about how presidents should operate moving forward. And we can't have presidents afraid to make decisions because they're going to be faced with criminal charges.
LEADER: I mean, no president before, except that no president before Trump had faced these very questions because no president before Trump, except perhaps for Nixon, tried to evade the law to the same extent that he did.
And what's so concerning about it, which Katanji Brown Jackson speaks to, is exactly what's tied to this case, which is that Trump sitting in the White House, this is now out of the case because they can't prosecute it because of the Supreme Court.
Trump sitting in the White House, makes calls to the Department of Justice. They are looking for someone in the DOJ who is willing fundamentally to write a memo that says we can throw out these electors and we're going to find a legal basis for that.
It's not that dissimilar from things that happen with, you know, President Bush and the torture memo. There are precedents here that the Supreme Court is now saying that a president has the absolute ability to do whatever they want when they are president.
MILLS: No, no, no. Presumption -- presumption, not absolute immunity. A presumption. So, we're going to give you as president the benefit of doubt.
SELLERS: But isn't that fundamentally different from the way that you and I and Doug and Scott are treated?
MILLS: You're not the president. You're not the head of the Academy of Marriage.
SELLERS: But that's my point exactly. So, why is it --
LEADER: It's un-American.
SELLERS: Thank you. My point exactly is we just said here and argued that there should be, everyone should be treated out of the same spoon and that no one is held above the law. And what you're telling me tonight is that, yeah. That's right. That's what the framers said. Oh, but because you're president, you can be treated differently.
And what I'm simply saying is that I hear you saying, but it's the office and it's the president. I hear you, but why can the president abuse that power? And where is it -- I mean, you've heard slippery slope more times than a little bit in law school, right? But where is that line?
And so, when the president wants to call DOJ or Lindsey Graham, find me 11,000 votes. Or when the president wants to order in SEAL Team Six --
LEADER: That's right. That's the example.
SELLERS: - to assassinate someone. MILLS: But that's not fair.
LEADER: No, but it was an extreme example for --
MILLS: The Supreme Court left an opening that said, if you show us --
SELLERS: Get to the assassinations.
UNKNOWN: But no, but it said--
MILLS: The Supreme Court left an opening that said, if you show us that he crossed the line, you have the ability to bring it to court. It's presumed immunity.
SELLERS: So, if you get pulled over to --
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there, Bacari.
SELLERS: What happens if he gets pulled over? Is there a presumption?
JENNINGS: She's speaking. She's speaking.
SELLERS: She is. I'm sorry.
PHILLIP: Unfortunately, we have to leave it at that.
UNKNOWN: Actually, her show is on the line.
PHILLIP: If we could hammer out all these legal issues tonight on the show, we would do it. But we have to do it another day. Donte Mills, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Everyone else, sit tight. Because coming up, it's the economy. Both campaigns, they're putting their focus on your wallets. We'll discuss what their plans are, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:26]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE (D): Everyday prices are too high. Food, rent, gas, back to school clothes. That is called Bidenomics. Bidenomics is working. The price of housing has gone up. It feels so hard to just be able to get ahead. And we are very proud of Bidenomics.
Here's a few things I believe. Middle class families, like the one I grew up in, they want common sense solutions. You want lower prices and lower taxes. I believe you want to just not get by, but you want to get ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Trump and Harris campaigns directing recent fundraising dollars on ads targeting the economy. My panel is back with me. So is Senator Al Franken. So, which one are voters supposed to believe? I mean, it is so divergent.
FRANKEN: The second one.
PHILLIP: It is so divergent --
LEADER: Segment over.
PHILLIP: -- the pictures that they're painting about what the economy is going to look like under a Harris administration, obviously.
FRANKEN: Well, you know, it's funny because the Trump people keep going Bidenomics, Bidenomics, Bidenomics. And there's two stories to Bidenomics. One story is the spike in inflation, and the other story is the unbelievable job creation.
And so, they're very -- they're as different as those two commercials. And the American people have focused more on the inflation. There's no doubt about that. Because that was the highest it's been in, what, 40 years?
UNKNOWN: It's pretty bad.
FRANKEN: Yeah, it's very bad. And -- but on the other hand, we had a soft landing. We had huge job creation, so much more job creation than Trump had in his -- his four years. And so, there's two stories here and it's whether the --
LEADER: And they're both true.
HEYE: I saw that ad on Sunday for the first time on T.V.
PHILLIP: Which one?
HEYE: The Trump one.
PHILLIP: The Trump one.
HEYE: In Raleigh, North Carolina. And after I saw that ad, I went to a place called Sam Jones Barbecue, which is a very famous place in Eastern North Carolina. And a small, chopped plate with one side cornbread, cheer wine, and a bottle of water --$21.75, small, chopped plate. And if you're a family of four, time that by four, and you're not doing that weekly or even necessarily monthly.
You're not buying ice cream. You may not be going to the movies. And for all the talk that we've had in Washington and in New York about the joy of Kamala, the reality is the Biden-Harris legacy on prices. They're not going to use the word inflation if you're the Trump campaign.
[22:50:02]
They shouldn't at least, on prices -- gives Donald Trump a massive advantage on this issue. Every state should talk about it all day every day. SELLERS: I think that's also decently intellectually dishonest. And I
think that people have to realize, and one of the things when we're talking about this is, we have to understand that this is not something that is just because of policies that happen in Washington, D.C. HEYE: Sure.
SELLERS: This is a global reaction. This is a global reaction to COVID. And what we've realized is that the United States of America, under Biden and Harris, have actually landed softer.
LEADER: Came out better.
SELLERS: Have come out of this better. and have come out of this quicker than any other country in the world.
HEYE: But when a family in four says, we're not going to go to the movies this weekend, that's not joy and they're not raising their soft landing. That's reality.
SELLERS: But one of the things that Kamala Harris is doing, one of the things I will not do to you is disregard what you're saying because costs are extremely high and those families feel that. And you're right. I want to know what sides they ordered. But regardless of that, what you're saying --
HEYE: I had chips.
SELLERS: Yeah, I mean, okay. All right. But what you're saying is absolutely correct. And that is why Kamala Harris, in a debate, or when she's talking about this, is saying, yes, we've done X, Y, and Z. And the economic indicators of this, the only people who care about economic indicators are us. People who are paying that, my dad cares about the whiting at Piggly Wiggly. They don't care about that. You're absolutely correct on the point.
JENNINGS: I know I've been defending the filibuster right here all week, but buddy, I think I'm about ready to get rid of it. Listen, the reality is this.
SELLERS: That was a good joke.
JENNINGS: It was the greatest ad because not only is it about the economy, but it reminds everybody, her of her current job and who she works for and what she was willing to say about it just a few months ago. That was the most effective ad the Trump campaign has ever had.
HEYE: And remember, conservatives used to make fun of Bill Clinton because he said, I feel your pain. It was a laugh line for conservatives. The reality is that connected with voters. And Harris has to demonstrate that she understands the pain that families are going through throughout this country, and her speech, which was heavy on biography, didn't really get on that.
LEADER: I mean, that's literally all the commercials that she's been running, it's about that. And that's part of why she's now leaned into, you know, building more houses, as well. She gets that, I mean, you'd be dumb not to.
PHILLIP: Everyone, stay right here. Coming up next, the panel will give us their night caps.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:56:54]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNightcap". You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. Lauren, you're up.
LEADER: I'd like to congratulate our colleagues at Fox News for live checking the sexism of Jesse Watters on air when he got rather inappropriate with his references to the vice president and what would happen in the "Situation Room". And you know what? It's a victory. It's a victory for all women whenever sexism is called out live. We'd love the men to be doing it more, too, as they did this evening. So, thank you.
PHILLIP: No, we're not even going to repeat what was said, but point taken. Doug.
HEYE: So, Travis Kelce and his brother signed a contract today for their podcast for $100 million. Amazing. But what struck me was, here's a guy just signed a million dollar -- a hundred million dollar contract, multiple Super Bowl winner, and yet he's not the successful one in the relationship. I don't know how that's possible otherwise.
PHILLIP: All right, Scott.
JENNINGS: I also would like to talk about football adjacent people. Brittany Mahomes, wife of Patrick Mahomes, the quarterback for the Kansas City Chiefs, went on Instagram the other day and liked a post by Donald Trump.
This caused everybody to go crazy. And I just want to say everybody needs to leave Brittany alone. I know all kinds of people were bagging on or whatever -- leave Brittany alone. So what? So, what if she has political views? Let her have him in peace.
PHILLIP: Hey, an accidental like, it happens sometimes.
JENNINGS: Accidental? I don't know.
SELLERS: I've never seen somebody try to get Kansas City Chief tickets like that before.
HEYE: I heard it's entirely wrong, too, didn't I?
SELLERS: Mine is -- mine is Coco. Because what I would tell everybody is that as much as we love the DNC, as much as we love Michelle Obama, as much as we love Kamala Harris, this is Coco Gauf season. Shout out to Coco Gauff. We're in New York City.
Everybody is coming here to watch her win this U.S. Open. I want her to win it. I'm going to make one of those little drinks they have at the house with the vodka and like the little melon ball. Thingy-ma- jiggy that they charge like $20 for after inflation --
PHILLIP: Inflation -- drink inflation.
SELLERS: -- thirty dollars for. But I know, go Coco, win this thing, do your thing. You're one of the best in the entire world. We love Coco.
PHILLIP: You do love Coco and Naomi Osaka--
LEADER: Oh, she had a moment.
SELLERS: First of all -- first of all, this was a Coco Gauff segment.
LEADER: There's room for more than one amazing --
PHILLIP: There's room for more than one amazing tennis woman. All right, Al.
FRANKEN: Very short. It will be known that Robert Kennedy, Jr. ate something unusual that belonged to the animal kingdom.
PHILLIP: What was that thing?
FRANKEN: I'm not -- I'm not going to tell you.
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, there have been a lot of damaging stories about our kids.
SELLERS: That's it? That's what you got?
FRANKEN: That's what I got, but it's --
PHILLIP: Is it a whale? Is it a bear?
FRANKEN: It was a reptile of some sort, yeah.
HEYE: Some years ago in Beijing, I ate a scorpion. I don't recommend it.
[23:00:00]
It's good for the Instagram. Not very tasty.
LEADER: We're ending it? Is that really where we're ending the show?
PHILLIP: think this is where the unity --
JENNINGS: I think the show's over. I think you're dead.
PHILLIP: This is where the unity --
SELLERS: Let's go to Twitter and figure out what everybody's thinking.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone. Thank you very much. And just as a reminder, Vice President Kamala Harris and Governor Tim Walz, they'll be speaking in their first exclusive joint interview on Thursday night at 9 P.M. right here on CNN with our colleague, Dana Bash. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight State of the Race". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
