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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

Economy's Dramatic Move Collides With Presidential Politics; Teamsters Won't Endorse Candidate For President This Year; Democrats Blame Trump Abortion Bans For Deaths Of Two Women; "NewsNight" Discusses Trump's Election Lies; Melania Trump Defends Her Nude Modelling. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 18, 2024 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, a Rorschach test for your wallet. Is the Fed's big move a reason for relief or a warning sign?

Plus, an explosive report suggests two women died under abortion restrictions, and now Kamala Harris is blaming Donald Trump.

KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: It's immoral. It's immoral.

PHILLIP: Also, 47 days until the election, the Republican nominee demands his party shut down the government over his election lies.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Politically beyond stupid.

PHILLIP: And Melania Trump emerges to sell a book, but not necessarily her husband.

MELANIA TRUMP, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: Why do I stand proudly behind my nude modeling work?

PHILLIP: Live at the table, Jonah Goldberg, Nayyera Haq, Geoff Duncan, and Madison Gessiotto. Welcome to a special edition of NewsNight, State of the Race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

Let's get right to what America is talking about. Did Kamala Harris just get a major economic boost or did Donald Trump just get another reason to criticize her? For the first time since the pandemic, in four years, the Fed have cut interest rates. It's a big, big move, especially if you're trying to make a big, big purchase. And some economists say it shows a soft landing that the United States is finally turning the page on inflation. But there are some others who say it could mean a downturn is on the horizon.

Now, as for the candidates, Harris calls it some welcome news. Trump, though, he's saying it's all politically motivated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I guess it shows the economy is very bad to cut it by that much. Assuming they're not just playing politics, the economy would be very bad, or they're playing politics, one or the other, but it was a big cut.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat tonight is CNN Economics Analyst Catherine Rampell. Catherine, I'll let you take that on from Donald Trump. I'll add to it, Steve Moore, who is a conservative economist, he says, I'm not saying a 50-point reduction isn't justified. It may well be, and they have more data than I do, but I just think, why now? There's no reason that they couldn't do 25 now and 25 after the election.

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS AND POLITICS COMMENTATOR: This is just nonsense. Look, we know from Milton Friedman, you know, noted Democrat, of course, that Fed policy works with long and variable lags, meaning that whatever the Fed did today, we are not going to feel it in the economy by November. If the Fed were actually trying to do something -- I'm not saying they were, but if they were trying to do something to help Democrats, they would have cut rates like nine months ago. That's around the time you would have needed to have any sort of effect on the real economy at this point.

But more to the point, the Fed is politically independent. They prize their political independence. It is important for them to be seen as above the political fray as not being influenced by the near term political, you know, ups and downs of what's going on in the economy, or excuse me, what's going on in the country in order for their medicine to work, right? If people don't believe that they are politically independent, then they're going to say, well, we don't really believe that they're committed to stable prices, and so, you know, inflation expectations can get unmoored. We've seen this happen in lots of other countries, by the way.

PHILLIP: As you're talking there, it just reminds me that yet again, this is like another institution that Trump thinks is operating in a political way. And so he then says, well, if I were president, I would make them political. I would put my thumb on the scale, because I have a right to, because that's what they're doing, but that's not what's happening here.

NAYYERA HAQ, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE SENIOR DIRECTOR: No, it's good. The whole entire point of having a monetary system that is independent is for these to be clear eyed views and perspectives. Now, the idea of inflation and the economy being political issues, yes, but there is only so much that each president can do when you have some fundamental challenges and shocks of the system to bring the economy back to a place where it's not just the economic indicators, but people feel like it's better. So, this is just another opportunity for both candidates to jump on the low income interest rates to pretty much advance their own economic policy agendas.

[22:05:00]

PHILLIP: I mean, don't you think there is a psychological effect to this though? I mean, Catherine's right that there is -- it's a lagging indicator, but I know a lot of people who have been anxiously had this date circled on their calendars, you know, they want to buy a house, they're just thinking longer term about their lives, and they want to know if these interest rates are going down. Will that psychological effect help?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Look, I think the psychological effect will help. At minimum, it can't hurt Harris, right? I mean, I don't see how you could spin it in a way and say, oh, so interest rates are finally starting to come down. That's bad for Harris, right? And you can tell just from where the noises that Trump world are making that they're uncomfortable with this.

And I agree entirely with Catherine, the idea that somehow the Fed has been doing. Joe Biden's bidding is a little hard to square with the fact that Joe Biden has been chased out of running for president because he was so unpopular because the economy was doing so badly.

PHILLIP: And he would have done -- he would have liked to have seen this.

GOLDBERG: You ask Joe Biden when he would have liked to have seen interest rates go down, and it was nine months or a year ago.

RAMPELL: But if he's smart, he won't say anything at all.

GOLDBERG: Of course, right, although he did recently put on a Trump hat. So, like fingers crossed.

RAMPELL: You really never know anymore.

GOLDBERG: Yes. But it's like inflation -- if all of a sudden we saw that inflation just stopped entirely, prices would still be high. But, psychologically, that would be really reassuring to a lot of people.

MADISON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: Well, I think the argument that President Trump was making, and that some Republicans on the right are making, is that the cut is an indication of maybe some bad times to come. And, of course, the bigger question is, how does this impact people?

Obviously, like she said, it is a lagging indicator. But when you look at a lot of things people across the country are struggling with right now, like credit card debt, you know, we're looking at people who maybe have a $1,000 credit card bill when you cut and they have maybe a 20 percent interest rate, we're talking about $0.42 they're saving monthly on their finance charges. This is not that much. So, people economically, I think are still struggling in this country and we're going to need a lot more relief than that to really move the ball. Of course, housing is still a huge issue. A lot of economists saying, you know, we could continue to see rent prices rise and this may not solve the crisis that we're seeing in the housing market, whatsoever.

HAQ: And the housing crisis isn't one just of interest rates, right? It's affordability, it's access, it's what is available. And for folks who are trying to get into that next year, I mean, our generation of millennials, we are unable to buy homes at rates that have never been seen before because of the price gap.

RAMPELL: But that's because it's hard to build.

GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's interesting that --

PHILLIP: Yes, and I should say --

RAMPELL: I mean, interest rates have made it more expensive, but the primary reason why housing is so unaffordable is that we've made it almost impossible.

PHILLIP: And we have seen rates like this, but I do think there's something to be said for people who four years ago -- this is the psychological element of it. Four years ago, they said to themselves, I was seeing 2.5, you know, mortgage rates, and I could afford twice as much house as I could afford right now. There is a psychological component to this that's making people feel just pretty dour.

DUNCAN: The economy is 3D chess, for sure. But it's interesting the candidates are trying to solve for a different problem with today's announcement than the Fed is in Jerome Powell. They're trying to talk about inflation and Jerome Powell is trying to cushion ourselves against some sort of free fall in an economic situation where deflation starts to kick in. So, we're trying to find this equal balance.

It's interesting, if you're sitting here and trying to retire, you look at your house's worth, it's more than it's ever been worth your assets, your 401(k)s, your portfolio, and so there's different parts of the economy. But I think if you look back at 2001 and 2007, at the peak of the equity markets is when they started making their first round of cuts, and then you watched what happened over the next 12 to 18 months. If you don't play this outright, this isn't some sort of guaranteed Goldilocks situation. This is very difficult.

But I do think it is so disingenuous of Americans to not give blame to both parties for getting us to this spot. We printed $16 trillion worth of money we didn't have over the last eight years, and we handed it out under the guise of economic crisis, under the guise of health crisis, under the guise of whatever crisis, $16 trillion we don't have. Therefore, we get to these peak interest rate moments and then we come back and fall down. PHILLIP: So, I want to shift gears a little bit, though, because there was another piece of big news today. The Teamsters, the union that has been dragging its feet on an endorsement for some time now, they decided what they were going to do, no endorsement. No endorsement for Harris, no endorsement for Trump. But in the meantime they did kind of knife Harris in the process. They released this internal polling data that shows that there was a big swing after Joe Biden left the race. Joe Biden was leading Trump when he was still in the race among union members. After he left the race, Harris trailing Trump. They did not endorse.

And here's what Sean O'Brien, who, by the way, spoke at the RNC, this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN O'BRIEN, TEAMSTERS GENERAL PRESIDENT: The Democrats have always taken for granted that they're going to get our vote no matter what. And the Republicans fancy themselves as the working party's -- working people's party. I think right now both sides have to take a step back and really reevaluate what their commitment is to working people, and that's what we did in this process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:02]

PHILLIP: So, Catherine, this is not an economic question because I don't think this has anything to do with economics, right?

RAMPELL: It is astonishing.

PHILLIP: I mean, the facts are what they are. The Biden-Harris administration literally bailed out the Teamsters' pensions. But that's really not what this debate is about within this particular union.

RAMPELL: It's not only that. So, you point out that, yes they bailed out the Teamsters' pensions. That's not the only major favor or whatever you want to call it that Democrats have recently bestowed on the Teamsters or on union members, in general. Excuse me, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, you know, walked the picket line with the UAW.

Donald Trump was recently in a conversation with Elon Musk cheering on Elon Musk for firing workers for trying to unionize. And Sean O'Brien referred to that as Sean O'Brien, the Teamsters leader, referred to that as economic terrorism. There are all of these data points that suggest that Democrats are much more aligned or at least willing to be pliable on the preferences of union members, including Teamsters members. And yet it's not about that, right? It's about culture war issues or some other sort of affect related to Trump rather than his policy stances or really his record.

HAQ: It is shocking how many times you will see voters voting against their own interests because of a cultural perception. I mean, listen, the head of the Teamsters was at, you know, RNC. He was rallying for Trump. And so for the Teamsters then to not endorse Trump shows how much dissension there was and tension there was in the ranks.

Biden and Harris have gotten pretty much every other union endorsement. They also have their own independent field operation, which is often what campaigns rely on unions to get, you know, get the vote out. They've got those community connections.

So, I think I do see the loss for Trump for not having had the endorsement of the union behind the personality that was at his campaign.

GESIOTTO: But this is a huge win for Trump. I mean, this is a union who has not endorsed a Republican since 1988 and has endorsed a Democrat almost every single time in 30 years other than sitting out in 1996. So, I think them sitting out is the win that obviously, of course, you could always have a bigger win. But to have that win, I think it's huge. And I do think this speaks volumes to the fact that the rank and file members of the union, as well as Democrats, in general, are really losing -- you know, they're losing that touch that they had with blue collar workers in this country.

DUNCAN: As a Republican, I'm just kind of numb to this, because I'm used to not getting the Teamsters' (INAUDIBLE). So, this seems like no big deal to me.

But I do think it speaks louder volumes to kind of these mixed coalitions that we're going to see form, and just kind of the electorate is going to be in a blender showing up to vote in 2024 in November, and we're going to see all kinds of different -- and I think that leads to some of the noise in the polling that we're seeing too show up, and it's just awkward. We can't put our fingers on it.

GOLDBERG: Yes. But I think the teamsters are essentially a canary in the coal mine of the erosion or dismantling of the old FDR coalition that we've been seeing for a very long time. Trump did not create that. Trump accelerated it. You can go back to Nixon, his relationship with the unions.

I just want to say, look, I do not credit the head of the Teamsters talking about how he is representative of the working man, right? It is a euphemism that a lot of unions use to make it sound like if you're not a member of the union, you don't support the union, that union, the Teamsters, just get out of federal receivership for like a quarter of the century because it took them that long to get the mob out of it.

Teamsters are historically corrupt goon squad. And like there are other unions that if I were a Democrat, I'd be very proud to have in my corner. The Teamsters aren't necessarily one of them.

But regardless, I won't say I disagree with you. I agree with you. There are a lot of voters who don't vote their economic interests anymore. But that is something that is scalable up and down the socioeconomic spectrum, where we have moved from the old definition of what it means to be left, which is to be class conscious of the Bernie Sanders model, and much more in sort of the cultural politics of the sort of the squad model, and that reverberates all over the place, and that's one of the reasons why the white working class is leading the Democratic coalition.

PHILLIP: Well, yes. I mean, I think that this reveals that there's been a little bit of a kind of glossing over the fact that within unions, there are all these racial and cultural tensions. Now, it's just breaking wide open the idea that everybody can just come under one economic tent, that's been questionable --

HAQ: There's also a generational issue here, right? We're talking -- we're in an election right now where there's going to be $41 million new voters. After this election, the majority electorate will be between the age of 18 and 45, right? The unions of old were largely appreciated and recognized by the boomer generation. Young workers, gig workers are recognizing the value of unions, but they're going to take a different form than what the Teamsters have taken in the past.

GOLBERG: If Trump had caved on right to work, which is what the teamsters wanted, I think the Teamsters would have endorsed it.

PHILLIP: I will see -- I mean, I will -- you know, we'll see if that ever happens. Catherine, thank you very much for joining us.

Everyone else stick around for us because coming up next, there is a chilling report, the death of two women being linked to abortion bans that were put in place after the fall of Roe, and now Kamala Harris is blaming Donald Trump for it.

[22:15:11]

Plus, Trump is also escalating his lies about the election again. And this time, the entire government is at stake.

Another special guest will join us in our fifth seat. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Tonight, a chilling report is set to become a major flashpoint on the campaign trail. Pro Publica is reporting that Georgia's abortion restrictions have contributed to the preventable deaths of at least two women.

[22:20:00]

In one instance, Amber Thurman needed an emergency procedure after taking abortion pills, but confusion over the new law may have delayed action at the hospital. Doctors decided to operate on her 20 hours later, but by that point, it was too late. And now, Vice President Kamala Harris is visiting Georgia on Friday to highlight who she is blaming for all of this, Donald Trump and the Supreme Court's overturning of Roe versus Wade.

Joining us in our fifth seat tonight is Nayeema Raza, the journalist and host of the podcast, Mixed Signals. There's a delay here of a couple of years actually between when the Dobbs decision came down and when we're hearing about these stories because of the way that states kind of report and investigate these things. But the cases of what the state itself is deeming preventable death, right, preventable death linked to abortion, this is exactly the kind of story that has been incredibly potent for Democrats all across the country.

NAYEEMA RAZA, PODCAST HOST, MIXED SIGNALS: Indeed, yes. And I think it's tragic that it has come to this point, right, that there's been a real denial about the costs of abortion laws, of the politicization of this issue to such an extent, because in states where you have heartbeat bills, even in states where there is exception for the life of the mother, as is the case here, you know, the Donald Trump campaign is pointing to the hospital, assigning culpability there. But there's also a reality of like it's not just the letter of the law, it's the chilling effect of what the law seems to be what people believe the law to be, just women seeking care and also providers.

PHILLIP: Yes.

GESIOTTO: But I think when you look at the law in Georgia specifically I think it very clearly defines an abortion as the intentional killing of an unborn child, and in this case, this woman already had an abortion and was not given the care that she deserved at that point. She needed a D&C to save her life and they didn't give her that I don't think that there's any excuse for that and from a legal perspective. That's a very clear potential med mal case.

HAQ: The challenge is that that's actually not clear to many of the doctors in these states who are adapting to new laws and, frankly, having to change the way they've done medicine, right? The idea of doctors in an emergency room saying, I got to call a lawyer before I can do the thing that I've always done that used to be called a medical abortion, but now it's become a politicized abortion, right? Like you called it a D&C, that is a medical abortion that now falls under this idea of what risk? And doctors are --

GESIOTTO: And D&C isn't always an abortion. A woman can have a miscarriage and have a D&C following a miscarriage.

HAQ: It totally understand it. Trust me, I get that.

DUNCAN: I was the president of the Senate in Georgia when we passed the heartbeat bill in Georgia. I was very intimately involved with the way this process went through. I spent a lot of time meeting with Democrats and trying to get their take and input.

Looking back now, there was no way to capture all of the special circumstances, the exceptions, the nuances. There was no way to do that in some sort of legislative period of time. And so I recognize that now. And so to hear these stories are heartbreaking and avoidable.

And, you know, if you just purely look through a political lens, this is a losing issue for Republicans, primarily because of primaries, right? As you watch these primaries play out and these debates play out, and you watch them try to race each other to the right, no exceptions, period, you know, and on one thing after another. But from an empathy standpoint, I do think Kamala Harris made a really, really strong statement that made a huge effect in our house when she took this notion of you don't have to step away from your faith to agree that the government shouldn't have a say so in your life.

GESIOTTO: Well, I think many people would disagree with that.

DUNCAN: I thought that was an important part.

GESIOTTO: Many people would disagree with that.

HAQ: But, Geoff, that's the key point that the Republican Party used to argue, right? There used to be an argument, a libertarian and conservative argument that was anti-government, government stay out of my body, government stay out of personal choice decisions, right? That's the part that's disappeared and you now see a very particular strain of evangelical definition of conception that goes back to an embryo, which I would compare a seed to a tree, and that actually does more to harm religious freedom, religious liberty, and right to health care access.

DUNCAN: I think that --

GESIOTTO: When you talk about protecting pre-born lives, and I think that's the argument that Christians and conservatives across the country make, I don't think that is not in line with what you're saying. Yes, we don't want the government in our lives. We don't want them reaching into our pockets. We don't want them telling us what to do.

HAQ: But you're legislating it. You're legislating. That's literally the government making rules about what can happen with your body.

GESIOTTO: When you believe that that is a baby, you're not legislating. You don't believe in murdering him, so you can't murder a pre-born baby either, if that's the belief that you have, and that's the belief that many evangelicals, Christians, and Catholics have across the country.

HAQ: Respect your belief, respect mine, respect others. This is a multi-faith, pluralistic democracy.

GESIOTTO: You can have respect for each other, and you can have multiple faiths.

HAQ: And that's the thing, is when it gets in the --

GESIOTTO: You can also protect people and babies' lives.

HAQ: When the government gets in the way of allowing medicine and science to help families, which is not only to make sure women survive one of the most dangerous things that women can go through, which is a pregnancy, but also even the issue of IVF and how to expand your family, we have gone off the rails.

[22:25:00]

RAZA: Yes. And I think that it's wild because we're actually all agreeing on the tragedy of these deaths and then they become this meta political argument as opposed to what could be done. And I really appreciate your perspective being on the frontlines of, you know, this legislation saying, hey, there wasn't enough clarity. There wasn't enough ability to think through all these things. And we're seeing these women, you know, the Harris campaign released an ad today timely, Hadley Duvall story, this woman in Kentucky.

PHILLIP: Let me go ahead and just play it because we have that ad.

RAZA: Oh, great.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've never slept a full night in my entire life. I was five years old when my stepfather abused me for the first time. I just felt like I was alone on a planet with a monster.

I was 12 when he impregnated me. I just remember thinking I have to get out of my skin. I was a child. I didn't know what it meant to be pregnant at all. But I had options.

Because Donald Trump overturned Roe v. Wade, girls and women all over the country have lost the right to choose, even for rape or incest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That's, I mean, absolutely nauseating, nauseating ad and story. It's incredibly powerful.

GOLDBERG: It's brutally powerful and like she's sort of unassailable in her narrative. And I pity any Republican who wants to sort of have to deal with that.

The only thing I'd say about all of this, and I know it's shocking that I've been dying to dive into this conversation, is that I think the Pro Publica piece that this is all based on did not do a very good job about laying this out. It felt like it was leading with its ideological priors, and it got to some really inconvenient facts for the narrative, not until like after the 60th paragraph.

But that said, I agree with you entirely, that the actual stories of these deaths, whether you're pro-life or pro-choice or somewhere in the middle, are tragic, and they are the inevitable consequence of the changing of the law. So, I agree with that entirely. But some of this is also possibly attributable to the responses to the changing of the law. And so far as in one of these cases, the abortion pill that was taken later than it's supposed to be, because now it is essentially all access thing, which normally would have been done much more closely under a doctor's care. And so you have reactions to reactions to reactions that make the story much more muddled.

PHILLIP: But isn't that the whole problem, is that when there are abortion restrictions, women are kind of left on their own to navigate this and it creates a process that doesn't have to be life threatening?

And just one last question to you because of your role in that Georgia bill. When you hear about the misunderstandings, misinterpretations, the delays in care, is that something that makes you think that these kinds of laws at six weeks could have unintended consequences to the point that they do not serve the purpose that they are supposed to serve?

DUNCAN: Well, certainly, we're watching unintended consequences. I would never want to see that story from that ad play out. I would never want to see any of these lives in jeopardy or even be at risk. And so, certainly, the system has got to be nimble enough to be bigger than politics, bigger than winning races. So, you have to be able to sit two sides of the argument down at the table at the same time and be able to walk through and layer in additional nuances, additional opportunities to protect.

PHILLIP: Do you regret six weeks?

DUNCAN: You know, my wife and I have talked about this. We sat there and made the decision that we recognize as a family life when the heartbeat starts. We watched our three kids' hearts beat the first time we went to see sonograms. That's where our personal life recognizes it.

I do agree with the Kamala Harris point where you don't have to step on your faith and all agree that the government shouldn't step in the way, but we also have to be able to have a conversation that doesn't take the extremes. It doesn't take in term abortion and no exceptions.

We ought to want some of the most effective things I did as lieutenant governor was sit in the same room with two opposite sides and shrink the size of the problem down. And I think that's where the solutions to this really legitimately sit for more Americans.

HAQ: Do you know who does have great solutions to this? The medical community who have trained and been raised and been following the science for decades, because the reality is abortions happened before Roe v. Wade. They were unsafe. They were dangerous. And once they were covered and part of a medical process, better choices, better health care choices have been made.

GESIOTT: Yes, but we're looking at the opposite in Georgia right now.

PHILLIP: Yes. Unfortunately, we have to leave it there for this conversation, but sit tight for us, because coming up next, Donald Trump is demanding that Republicans shut down the government now over a bill that could cast doubt on November's election results. Now, could doing this, ultimately, actually cost him the election?

[22:30:01]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:34:21]

PHILLIP: So, just how far will Donald Trump go to push his election lies? He's willing to apparently shut down the entire government over it. He's demanding that Republicans vote against any spending bill that does not include making it mandatory to show proof of citizenship to vote. But his reasoning is BS. He falsely claims the Democrats are registering illegal voters by the tens of thousands.

And so far, his demands aren't working. Fourteen Republicans joined most Democrats to reject an extension that includes that voting issue. Donald Trump, once again, putting this election stuff back on the agenda.

[22:35:00]

And I just want to play Trump once again talking about this. I think at this point, we all know this is not the kind of thing that his advisors want him to be talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (R): I was told if I got 63 million, which is what I got the first time, you would win. You can't not win. And I got millions of more votes than that and lost by a whisker.

DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Are you now acknowledging that you lost in 2020?

TRUMP: No, I don't acknowledge it at all. I said that sarcastically, you know that. It was said, oh, we lost by a whisker. That was said sarcastically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: It's just like a week apart. I mean, he is struggling with this in a real way, and it's doing damage to Republicans. I mean, on Capitol Hill, they do not want to shut down, or at least the ones who are wrong.

DUNCAN: Yeah, I don't know what I'm more mad at, right? I go back and forth minute to minute. Like am I more mad at Donald Trump trying to sabotage good policy and good legislation and keep the trains on time, or am I more mad that we're at this epitome of stupidity again and half the people in that room couldn't pass a high school economics class and don't realize the damage that they're doing just to try to prime up an extra 15 likes on Twitter, right? Like it just -- it infuriates me to watch us get to the spot.

And if you really look at the mechanics of what's going on, we've already budgeted the money and now we just don't want to write the check for it, right? Like if we do that at home, we ultimately go to jail or get evicted or lose your car or your wife leaves you or something.

HAQ: It's part of that bigger, everything government is bad unless Trump is the one telling you how government should work, right? That's just the broader personality that we deal with there.

But shutting down the government is one of those things that actually hits people in very personal ways. When we talk about, you know, family and pocketbooks, economic table, you know, all those different expressions, you're talking access to national parks, which are the only affordable vacations these days, frankly, for a family of four.

You're talking about social security checks going out on time, tax rebates coming in, all of this boring work of government that is not nearly as sexy as talking about culture war issues. That's what's being funded right now, and people will feel the difference if it shuts down, and Trump is the one advocating for it.

MADISSON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: But I also think it speaks to the sentiment that a lot of people across the country have right now, both Republicans and Democrats, that they're just sick of Washington, they're sick of government, they really don't like Congress, they feel like they spend all the money that they simply don't have.

At home, we don't get to spend money we don't have, and I think, as you know, all of us have heard time and time again, people don't want the government spending money they don't have either. And so, I think that's why you see such a low approval rating with Congress.

You know, I was writing for "Washington Times" almost 10 years ago back in 2015 talking at that point at how we were going to surpass $13 trillion of national debt and what a disaster would be for our country. We're now at what 34 -- 35 trillion. I mean this is an issue that, really, I don't think could be expressed and stressed enough.

DUNCAN: I mean just imagine if there was a different candidate that was in the Republican nominee's spot and they were able to lean into this as a forward-looking process, inject better ideas, inject teamwork, you know.

And that's really what this whole play is about, is trying to get rid of Donald Trump out of the Republican party, this bank shot that seems a little bit awkward some days I wake up, and try to figure out how to get a new Republican party stood up that actually problem solves and works with the other side.

RAZA: Yeah, I think that --

GESIOTTO: And you don't think he did a good job on anything as president in that front?

DUNCAN: No. I've got a fogged memory at this point. January 6th, the death threats on my family, $8 trillion with a debt. Yeah, there's a few things that cloud my memory.

RAZA: And so, you can't be unbiased about the economy?

DUNCAN: Which part about the economy, the $8 trillion that led to this hyperinflation period of time that we've got that we as Republicans want to act like as a Democrat's colleagues?

GESIOTTO: Do you think the economy was better under Trump than it is today?

DUNCAN: I think it was different.

GESIOTTO: But do you think it was better?

DUNCAN: No.

GESIOTTO: So, you can't say it was better in 2019 than it was in 2022 -- 2023?

DUNCAN: My business is doing better than it's ever done. My house is worth more than it's ever done. My portfolio is worth better. Yes, I pay more for groceries and yes, there are certain incremental issues around this. But at the end of the day, we're being disingenuous as Republicans acting like Donald Trump got this right. He's not God.

GESIOTTO: You know what, a lot of people -- nobody said he's God, but a lot of people in this country can't afford the excess groceries. They certainly don't have the portfolio that's growing.

RAZA: Actually, I think that the reporting coming out after that debate, that presidential debate, actually a lot of undecided voters were saying you know, on that question about the immigration bill, Donald Trump obstructing that, not from a seat of power, but from his role, you know, in the Republican Party.

GESIOTTO: More people came out trusting him on the economy and that polling as well, which was something that I think she had an opportunity to win people around if she didn't.

RAZA: Well, now -- but I think people are asking, hey, what is this? If you genuinely care about immigration, why are you not backing a bill that would, you know, protect the borders?

HAQ: It was a bipartisan bill that everyone threw their chips in.

GESIOTTO: I think because the bill had catch and release in it, which was a sure-go.

DUNCAN: So, do you genuinely believe that Donald Trump thinks this spending bill was bad?

GESIOTTO: Yes, I do.

DUNCAN: Oh, you do?

GESIOTTO: I do genuinely believe that he thinks that.

DUNCAN: I disagree.

GESIOTTO: You don't have to disagree whether it's good or bad, but he genuinely might think that.

DUNCAN: So, you don't think it's good for him politically? You don't think he woke up this morning going, ha-ha, this is going to be great.

PHILLIP: Well, Madison and Geoff, like, that -- this is an interesting conversation because I think you're both wrong. I don't think it's about the economy, and I don't think that it's actually politically beneficial to him. [22:40:00]

I think this is about Donald Trump.

UNKNOWN: Yes, of course.

PHILLIP: This is about Donald Trump --

GOLDBERG: I'm totally with you.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- not wanting to acknowledge that he lost. This is about him continuing to try to make excuses about why the last election that he lost was actually free and fair.

GOLDBERG: So, I think that's the only bit I disagree with you. I think this is more setting the predicate if he loses the next time.

PHILLIP: Well, that is true, too.

HAQ: But that predicate is not only being set by his rhetoric. I want to be very, like, keen on that point, Is that Arizona -- there's an effort to invalidate 100,000 ballots right now, rather, voter registration -- 100,000 voter registration. And let's not forget, Arizona was the one that Fox News called that started to tip the wave towards Trump winning.

So, that's a very particular state for him. Those 100,000, because if they don't have updated citizenship records, majority of those actually voters are older and Republican that might be kicked off on the rolls. But there's an effort in every battleground state to fight every single ballot, tooth and nail to try --

DUNCAN: Including Georgia. He's stacking the deck with our Elections Committee which I didn't even know was a thing until I became lieutenant governor. But now, we've got a voting majority to sow seeds of doubt in every corner of our state just in case that he needs to use that as a as a lifelong.

PHILLIP: Yeah and Jonah -- Jonah's right. It's not just about the last one. It's about the one that is coming. I mean, just a couple days ago, I mean, he was threatening proactively -- he would jail election workers. I mean --

GOLDBERG: And former elected officials.

HAQ: And you want to talk about who gets threats right now? It's the lady who's volunteering at the local county to, you know, just make sure people are getting in line and they know where to go. Those are the people being threatened by rhetoric like that. It goes to the idea of our civic.

GESIOTTO: And how about the day he was shot and almost shot a second time? I mean, this does not go one way. HAQ: So, back to what's going on locally in communities with real

people who don't have Secret Service to help them out, that is part of the challenge, right? When you invalidate the civic engagement and how we connect to those communities and volunteers become targets, that's a problem.

GOLDBERG: Yes, I get back to the other point. It's just like, this is just terrible politics. I mean, like it's -- Mike Johnson wants to get a budget passed because if they shut down the government, Republicans will be blamed for it. Whether you think it's fair or not, they will be blamed for it because they're controlling the Congress and that will cost in all likelihood the Republicans control of the house.

And Johnson is only doing this voter integrity thing. I'm sure he believes in it. On the merits, I think you can believe in it, that's fine but he's only doing it to carry water for Trump and Trump could very well be costing the Republicans, the House, all to --

DUNCAN: Again.

GOLDBERG: -- again -- all to indulge his ego on this stuff.

PHILLIP: All right, everyone.

DUNCAN: It shocks me. I can't believe it.

PHILLIP: You would know. You would know. Coming up next, Melania Trump emerges from her silence not to campaign for her husband, but to defend, get this, nude pictures of herself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:47:19]

PHILLIP: Melania Trump putting it all out there in the open, not for her husband's campaign, mind you, but for her new book, Melania. And one of those first teasers of the book is about her nude modeling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELANIA TRUMP, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY (through translator): Why do I stand proudly behind my nude modeling work? The more pressing question is, why has the media chosen to scrutinize my celebration of the human form in a fashion photo shoot? Are we no longer able to appreciate the beauty of the human body?

Throughout history, master artists have revered the human shape, evoking profound emotions and admiration. We should honor our bodies and embrace the timeless tradition of using art as a powerful means of self-expression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: It's the Stock photos for me. By the way, I was not aware that the media was scrutinizing her career, at least not in quite some time. GOLDBERG: I think there were some dudes who were scrutinizing her nude pictures. But that's a little different, you know. But yeah, I like -- I wrote about this today but just the whole pretense that there was a -- that the real question is why is the media focusing on, you know, having problems with the nude form. And it's like literally, this is a story that broke years ago and no one has been talking about this at all. But you have to come up with some sort of hook that blames the media for something. And --

HAQ: And listen, listen, with Laura Loomer hanging around Donald Trump and that being news all last week, it's a good time to remind people that Melania is a very attractive woman. Now, I will say, in all seriousness, though, I remember, as I was saying before, the era of being so scandalous when a first lady even wore sleeveless dresses, which is something very normal for Americans.

I don't think most American women have posed for nude photos, but this is a -- interesting idea and, you know, I welcome the Stock photos and let's do some art history together now.

PHILLIP: You know, I need a little bit more of a Melania-like deep dive here, because the idea that she's even writing this book and then promoting it. But let me check the date here.

GOLDBERG: Forty-eight days.

PHILLIP: Forty-eight days before the election. I am not understanding this.

RAZA: But she's not just promoting the book, she is actually promoting her husband. This is the latest in a series of videos she's been releasing about the book, "Melania" and they are all, as someone who, you know, makes films and documentaries, very odd, darkly lit, ominous, and they take on themes from motherhood to, you know, her new modeling career to search and seizure, the Fourth Amendment and what happened in Mar-a-Lago, which is not --yes.

[22:50:04]

And in fact, and with constitutional writings and pictures of the founding fathers, at some moment when I first saw it in my feed, I wondered if it was like an AI dolly, you know, kind of generated thing. But she, the one that I think -- the thing that is concerning about it is -- it is conspiratorial, it's cryptic, and it's almost Carrie Bradshaw meets conspiratorial.

I found myself wondering why the Secret Service didn't arrest the man. And there must be, you know, there's more to find out and we must find the truth and this is the truth. After months of --

PHILLIP: Carrie Bradshaw meets conspiracy theory is really not what --

DUNCAN: One of the more unique things I got to do as Lieutenant Governor is my wife and I ended up somehow, someway in the limo with Donald Trump and Melania for like 30 minutes. And it was like a really engaging conversation. She talked about, you know, my wife and her talked about raising kids but none of these nude pictures and none of that came up in the conversation.

But I've stopped trying to explain Mr. and Mrs. Trump. It just doesn't make sense in any sort of political fashion and it's certainly not the things we talk -- like my wife and I don't talk about porn stars and nude pictures at our kitchen table. I assume they probably do.

GESIOTTO: Well, as the only person here of the six of us who may actually buy and read the book -- I'm actually looking forward to hearing her perspective on some things. As a first lady, she was obviously a little bit quieter than other first lady. She wasn't quite as involved.

I'm interested in hearing what she has to say. I liked her clip that she put out promoting the book about being a mom and how that really changed her perspective in life and I thought that was a good one. And obviously what the press push that they're doing is working because we're all talking about it tonight, so.

GOLDBERG: I think she should have gotten a cover of Vogue instead of Joe Biden. I mean, I don't have a --

GESIOTTO: Something we can agree on.

GOLDBERG: Yeah, I don't have a B in my bottom about Melania Trump particularly.

GESIOTTO: And people, obviously maybe not as recent, but people did slam her over her modeling career despite the fact that as an immigrant, she really did come here to chase her American dream was wildly successful in doing so and people really slammed her about some of those photos but didn't slam others like Lizzo and other people that wanted to get naked.

PHILLIP: All right, we've got to leave it there because we've got a lot more to get to tonight. Everyone, stay with me. Coming up next, the panel will give us their night caps including why America is right now hitting a boiling point.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:56:51]

PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. Geoff, you're first.

DUNCAN: Much like a frog boiling in water, over time you just forget how serious things are getting and you just realize that you're -- you don't realize that you're sitting in treachery. This country's got no boiling point and it's a bipartisan problem. It seems to be more heavily shaded in the current period of time with Trump and Vance, but it's certainly a bipartisan problem.

If you're in Springfield, Ohio and you're in Haitian, you're scared about going to work tomorrow. If you're a poll worker in Fulton County, Georgia, you're probably scared about going to the polls. And if you're the former lieutenant governor, there's times that you're scared because of somebody thinking you took money from the Chinese or the Venezuelans or somebody else. We need to do better. We should do better. We deserve better.

PHILLIP: Yeah, if this week has taught us anything, it is that, indeed. Jonah?

GOLDBERG: As the polls are -- the polls are still very, very tight, but the trends are not in the -- are not going great for Donald Trump in terms of the momentum and the shifts. And I think that since we missed the traditional August Trump firing of staff and campaign workers to shake things up, I think that if these polls continue to go that way, we're going to see some, at the very least, some pollsters get fired.

Maybe Tony Fabrizio, who came out, who worked on a poll with AARP saying Wisconsin's in jeopardy for Trump. And Trump likes to say his own posters also have him winning by a huge amount. I think we're going to start seeing some defenestration of Trump staff.

PHILLIP: There is still plenty of time for that. Madison?

GESIOTTO: I have a little lighthearted one. Are crypto bros ready to take over the political world? Trump today seen making his first bitcoin purchase, handing out some burgers to people here in Manhattan, and of course earlier in the week doing his very first ex live - what -- live stream they call it or live space. I don't do spaces to it. He did his first live space with a crypto bro. Obviously, they're trying to dig deep, infiltrate the political system, filling that hole left by Sam Bankman Fried.

PHILLIP: Doesn't he also have a crypto business? Isn't that part of it, too?

GESIOTTO: He's into crypto and that's why they're loving it. But they're really trying to get involved. They're trying to get involved all across the spectrum.

PHILLIP: But Trump -- as with many things, a lot of it comes back to his own personal self-interest as well, I can imagine. All right, Nayeema.

RAZA: Mine is, are we watching the same or any of us watching the same thing and what are people watching right now? There used to be a time -- we're never going to get back to Americans watching the same news broadcasters. But there used to be a time -- where I'd watch the same television show well before you know our time there was "MASH" and for a moment in time there was the Olympics and there was "The Sopranos" and there was so much good TV.

And since "Succession" and "Yellowstone" there hasn't been that -- since peak "Yellowstone", there hasn't been that moment that convening of a cultural conversation. And I think that's missing right now. I think people are actually hungry for it. They're nostalgic for it that's like people like me are watching "The Sopranos". My husband and I just took a photo in front of Tony Soprano's house last month in Jersey, so-- PHILLIP: They're watching sports. That is the communal, but not TV. I mean, there are probably some Gen Z-ers who are like, don't know what "MASH" is.

RAZA: Well, this is a natural outcome of fragmentation and streaming and all this. And as a creator, it's good for creative energy. You get lots of international content.

[23:00:00]

But it is a decline in American soft power and a decline in our coming together.

PHILLIP: All right, Nayyera?

HAQ: I mean, this is also not that serious, but I do think people need to understand that this season of "Love is Blind" is now based in D.C. and this is not at all what the dating pool in D.C. looks like. The suits are way too fitted. The titles are normal.

Usually, a title that you would run into in political D.C. would be something like special assistant to the advisor of Muckety Muck. And the first question in a dating scenario would be, oh, who do you work for? So, I just don't want anyone to think that this is what -- this is fantasy reality television.

PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, thank you very much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight State of the Race". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.