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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

Mayor Eric Adams (D-New York City, NY) Indicted On Federal Charges; MAGA Rep Tells Thug Haitian Migrants To Get Their A** Out; "NewsNight" Panelists Discuss U.S. Immigration System; New York City Mayor Eric Adams Indicted On Federal Charges; Many Say V.P. Harris Does Not Go Into Details Of Her Policies In Interviews. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 25, 2024 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, Americans are hungry to hear from Kamala Harris on the election's biggest issue.

KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm a capitalist.

PHILLIP: But did she answer their questions?

Plus, breaking news, the mayor of New York City indicted tonight, Gotham's first ever to be criminally charged.

Also, when the dog whistle becomes a bullhorn, a MAGA congressman resorts to vile rhetoric against the legal immigrants in Springfield, warning them to leave the country.

And --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump is an adjudicated sexual assaulter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was basically overpowering me.

PHILLIP: -- do the chilling words from Trump's accusers have any impact on voters?

Live at the Table. Tara Setmayer, Bryan Lanza, Gretchen Carlson and Madison Gesiotto. 40 days to go. Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Philip in New York.

Let's get right to what America is talking about. There is news breaking just moments ago that the New York City mayor, Eric Adams, has now been indicted on at least one federal criminal charge. The indictment, as of right now, is sealed, so it's unclear exactly what charge or charges Mayor Adams will face. But he will become the first mayor in the city's history to be charged while still in office.

Federal investigators have been looking at his campaign fundraising, at foreign influence violations. And Mayor Adams has denied any wrongdoing despite resignations left and right from right inside of his administration.

We're going to discuss this at the table, but, first, let's go to CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller, who's been a part of New York City for quite a long time. I mean, John, first of all, what do we know about all the various things that Mayor Adams could be facing here, which adds to a level of complexity, given that we don't yet know what the charges are?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, Abby, first and full disclosure. You know, I worked for Mayor Adams as a deputy police commissioner in the beginning of his administration. So, he and his team are people that I'm highly familiar with.

What we're looking at here is, and it's a great way to frame it because it's complicated and we should understand it, this is an investigation started by the FBI more than a year ago. Last November, they did search warrants against several of Adams key aides and associates and businessmen connected, allegedly, to this case. That is what kind of put us on notice that the FBI was investigating it.

After that, they seized the mayor's phones and electronic devices. And we have seen them subpoena additional records with search warrants, looking into campaign finance records, foreign trips by the mayor, particularly on Turkish Airlines. And allegations have been in the subtext of this story as to what was provided by the mayor allegedly in return for that.

This is key. That is the thing that has not been clearly spelled out in the investigative activity we've been able to see. So, when this indictment, we are told, was handed up by the grand jury today and sealed, which is why we don't know what's inside it, there will be an announcement, we expect, tomorrow by the Office of the United States Attorney where they will lay out these charges and what's behind them.

But when we see that, because based on what we've got so far, we don't see the quid pro quo. We don't say he did this specifically in return for that. We haven't seen that allegation. And that is the kind of thing for the United States attorney to indict the mayor of America's largest city. That would have to go from the U.S. Attorney's Office up to the public corruption section in the U.S. Department of Justice from there to the attorney general to get an indictment like that approved, meaning they've read through the charges and they think they passed muster. So, we will be looking with great anticipation to see what that says.

[22:05:03]

We know what the mayor says. What the mayor says tonight was, I always knew that if I stood my ground for New Yorkers, that I would be a target, and a target I became. If I am charged, I am innocent and will fight this with every ounce of my strength and spirit. PHILLIP: There's a lot in that statement, John Miller. One more question for you because I think you, you alluded to this. This has been going on now in the background and a lot of investigative steps that we're only seeing the public aspects of it every once in a while in over the last year. But over the last week or two, there have been a number of resignations, a number of retirements, a number of people being charged around the Eric Adams administration. Put that all together for us. What is the impact of that on this city?

MILLER: Well, this is basically five investigations, one into alleged foreign influence from China, who allegedly -- they're investigating whether a key aid to the mayor was co-opted to do China's bidding within the city administration, similar to the case we just saw with an aid to the governor.

nother is a case into two deputy mayors and the school's chancellor, and that is looking into how contracts were awarded, specifically contracts that were awarded with urgency on issues, like migrant housing and other things, security contracts and more, a special assistant to the mayor.

The police commissioner was probed because his twin brother was allegedly going around shaking down bars for money on the idea that he could either ease up on police enforcement or perhaps increase it if money wasn't paid. So, you see this flurry of activity. But they're separate.

The mayor's investigation, that's the FBI. The deputy of mayor's investigation is being led by the U.S. Attorney's Office and other agencies. The foreign counterintelligence section of the FBI is looking into the alleged Chinese foreign influence.

But, Abby, as you pointed out, what it has caused is a storm of subpoenas, seizures, search warrants among the people closest to the mayor, which, of course, has cast a large shadow over the administration, over City Hall, and over, you know, the Adams campaign, which is going to face an election within a year.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, he's up for re-election next year. There are a number of people lining up to replace him. He's made a lot of political enemies just in his time as mayor, and many of those people have already started speaking up, calling for him at this point to resign.

John Miller, please stand by for us as the story continues to develop. We're going to bring it in to the studio here at the table. Joining us in our fifth seat is Manhattan Criminal Defense Attorney Stacy Schneider.

Stacy, as John just pointed out, it's a lot of different investigations. I mean, I think we will have a conversation here with this group about the political implications of it all. But from a legal perspective, what do you think is the most likely scenario here for what he could be facing given what we know about Eric Adams, the mayor, and what he's being investigated over? STACY SCHNEIDER, MANHATTAN CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, based on the evidence that's been seized from different members of the administration and the fact that the New York City mayor has had his own cell phones and iPad seized by the FBI, what I suspect might be coming down is one of the allegations, and this is going to be a public corruption indictment, very likely. But one of the allegations that has been floating around is that there was a member, a former member of someone associated with the Turkish government or a liaison to the Turkish community, as well as someone who worked for a Turkish airline, and that there was some kind of fundraising done with Turkey that enabled, allegedly, pressure to be put on the New York City Fire Department to approve the building of a high rise in midtown Manhattan for a brand new Turkish consulate.

So, that's some of the alleged facts that are floating around that might turn up in this sealed indictment, which will be released tomorrow, but the most shocking part of all of this, besides the fact that New York City top administration officials under the mayor have been dropping like flies, resigning left and right, the mayor's own counsel just resigned, you know, apparently because, allegedly, he wasn't listening to her advice. Whatever the typical reason is that lawyers resign in the middle of investigations, that's usually it.

But the fact that the New York City mayor has been investigated in this way and all these people who had their phones seized in his administration, I think this indictment is going to be multipronged regarding many, at least five, they're talking about, foreign governments where there's been some kind of allegedly improper activity. But we'll see what the evidence turns up in the indictment.

PHILLIP: It is incredibly stunning. You know, this is someone, I mean, for context, not only the mayor of, you know, New York City, this incredible institution of a city when it comes to this country, but also someone who just a couple of years ago, when he was elected, was being touted. He touted himself as the future of the Democratic Party. He was presenting himself as the person who best represented the path forward for the Democratic Party. He is now being indicted for what sounds like public corruption.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST AND CO-FOUNDER, LIFT OUR VOICES: And he was a police officer. And I think the most striking thing to me is if you just look at his childhood and his background, you know, he had skirmishes with the law when he grew up in a single parent family. And then he ended up being able to rehabilitate himself and became a police officer and rose to the ranks of becoming the mayor of the biggest city in the United States. But to hear these types of allegations potentially in charges, it doesn't sound like it's a one- off.

The other thing I had heard was that potentially they were bundling campaign funds together and then they were reimbursing people for those funds, which is, I guess, a violation of campaign fundraising.

So, earlier today, AOC called for his resignation and I was wondering if that had something to do with anything or if she had prior knowledge, but it's just very sad. PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I think that the circumstances were starting to collapse on Eric Adams. It is a question now of what happens next. Does he resign? Does he get pushed out by the governor, Kathy Hochul? What happens now, because the pressure is mounting?

TARA SETMAYER, CO-FOUNDER AND CEO, THE SENECA PROJECT: Yes. Well, right now, I think the question of who's running New York City is a legitimate one. And for Eric Adams, I mean, if you've been following this, I don't think anyone is surprised that it has come to this point.

And, you know, he's been very arrogant throughout all of this knowing that these things have been swirling around, right? Self pride comes before a fall. And I think this is a perfect example of that in politics with Eric Adams. And it is a shame, because he does have a great American story, as Gretchen mentioned, overcoming his childhood and to become the mayor of the greatest city in the world, in my opinion, but you can't do this with corruption. And the Southern District of New York would not have made a move like this unless they were pretty rock solid on the evidence that they had.

And once your phones are seized by the feds, that's never a good sign, and so we all know that had happened. And the fact that it's coming from multiple fronts is also highly problematic. I don't see how he stays, but then, again, in the era of Donald Trump, where you deny, deny, deny, deny, I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to stay and it puts the governor of New York in a situation. What does she do then?

MADISON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: And there were some interesting parallels in his statement that he put out about the government coming after him.

PHILLIP: He said, I always knew if I stood my ground for New Yorkers, that I would be a target and a target I became.

GESIOTTO: And I think it'll be interesting to see obviously what comes out tomorrow when they unseal the indictment, and, of course, whether he does ultimately resign because sources close to Kathy Hochul are saying that they aren't going to push her out from the state level. So, we'll see what happens. I think he resigns, but it remains to be seen.

CARLSON: Or if he goes to jail. Or if he has bail, I mean, we have no idea what's going to happen to him.

PHILLIP: I mean, is it a mistake for him to sort of like nod to some kind of conspiracy? Because one of the things that John Miller kind of pointed out, if you're listening closely to what he said, is that all of these other kind of many scandals that are unfolding in the Eric Adams administration, they are being investigated by all these different authorities. They are being, they're coming at it from all sides. The idea that is some kind of grand conspiracy, well, I would like to see that wizard. That would be an incredibly powerful wizard.

SETMAYER: Same wizard that Mark Robinson apparently visited him as well. PHILLIP: Apparently.

BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: Listen, it's pretty jarring, you know, hearing this tonight. I grew up in New York. You sort of idolize New York as sort of the image that you want of America. More facts are going to come out tomorrow, but, you know, Adams has a difficult path ahead of him. I mean, the calls for resignation are going to be overwhelming. And if he chooses to fight, he chooses to fight.

Yes, I think people choose to fight all the time. I remember during the Clinton era, he chose to fight an impeachment. It wasn't a criminal charge. But, you know, the line has been set. If you fight, you line up your allies and you move forward. I suspect that's what Adams, if he makes that decision, that's how it's set up.

SCHNEIDER: And he should be careful, because now he's going to be a criminal defendant who's going to be indicted in federal court in the southern district and he's, you know, making all these sort of campaign slogany statements, I'm going to fight for the people of New York and I'm going to continue to fight and I'm an innocent -- almost like he's a victim here.

[22:15:02]

But you don't get a federal indictment for nothing. Where there's smoke, there's fire. And I'm not saying he's guilty of anything. We haven't seen the indictment. It's all allegations.

But like you said earlier, Abby, I mean, the federal prosecutors and the FBI don't investigate cases and then throw them together, you know, out like a matchbook putting -- you know, this is serious. There're so many moving pieces here and so many members of this administration who've had their cell phone seized, you know, all the conversations and the data and the text messaging in these cell phones and the emails, it's all put together into a storyline of what allegedly happened here, and it's going to be very incriminating.

And for Mayor Adams to already -- you know, his statement tonight before we even knew about this indictment, it came maybe an hour or two ago, was I'm the second black mayor of New York City and they're just targeting me. How is that relevant when he knows he came out of an event last year with his aides, his SUV was waiting to take him back, and the FBI said, Mayor, get into the van, and they made everyone wait outside and they went -- the FBI went into a van with the mayor of New York City and had a discussion about taking his cell phones from him.

PHILLIP: Yes, I remember that. It is surreal. It's extraordinary. And it's just the beginning, honestly, of this story. Stacy, thank you very much for rushing in and joining us on this breaking news.

Everyone else, stand by for us. We're getting word of a confrontation on the House floor tonight between a MAGA congressman and Democrats over a vile rant about legal immigrants. The racist rhetoric that Clay Higgins used against Haitian migrants and why he's warning them to leave the country. Another special guest is joining us in our fifth seat. That's next.

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[22:20:00]

PHILLIP: Here's another topic that America is talking about tonight, racism in the halls of Congress. Well, let me just read what started all of this. It is from a sitting Republican congressman, Clay Higgins of Louisiana. He's referencing the legal immigrants currently in Springfield, Ohio, who are now, by the way, suing Donald Trump and J.D. Vance for pushing baseless conspiracies about them. Quote, these Haitians are wild, eating pets, voodoo, nastiest country in the Western Hemisphere, cults, slapstick gangsters, but damned if they don't feel all sophisticated now, filing charges against our president and V.P. He's talking there about Trump and Vance, by the way, who is not the vice president.

He goes on, quote, all these thugs better get their mind right and their ass out of our country before January 20th. Of course, that would be when Trump would be sworn into office if he wins.

Now, after that post, Higgins was confronted on the House floor by Democrats in the Congressional Black Caucus. Higgins would then later delete the tweet. But he also later said that he stands by the words and doesn't regret them. That is quite the difference in how the events actually transpired and what House Speaker Mike Johnson said about it. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): He was approached on the floor by colleagues who said that was offensive. He went to the back. I just talked to him about it. He said he went to the back, and he prayed about it, and he regretted it, and he pulled the post down. That's what you want a gentleman to do. I'm sure he probably regrets some of the language he used, but, you know, we move forward. We believe in redemption around here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Pollster Frank Luntz. Frank, you know, what Higgins said, by the way, let me just read what he said to CNN. He said, I can put up another controversial post tomorrow if you want me to. I mean, we do have freedom of speech. I'll say what I want. It's not a big deal to me. It's like something stuck to the bottom of my boot. Just scrape it off and move on with my life. It doesn't sound like prayerful regret to me.

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Yes, it doesn't. And we have to be willing to call out members when they do things like this. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy this show. What I've been trying to do over the last six, nine months is to speak truth to power, is to ask people to act better in how they deal with something like this and to stop using this kind of rhetoric. It's going to be offensive to everyone. We just did a session last night, a focus group on immigration, and, man, did those people come apart. And I thought that just maybe we can have a conversation, a civil conversation about one of the most important issues that's happening in America today, but you can't. That was a horrible thing that was said. It should not have been said.

His response to CNN, I don't think, is appropriate, but I'm also -- we just have to lower the decibel level, or it's going to be too late for our democracy.

CARLSON: I mean, it's coming from the top though.

PHILLIP: Yes.

CARLSON: Look, this is coming from the top of the Republican Party. And before Trump, this would have never happened, ever. This would've never happened. This guy would've been expelled. He would have been forced to resign.

PHILLIP: It would have been at the very least widely denounced, which, I mean, I don't think it really --

CARLSON: Sorry, I'm really angry about this because we are now at a state in our culture where we just brush this off. Even the speaker just said tonight, oh, it's all about redemption and, you know, bygones are bygones. No, it's not. This is so serious.

SETMAYER: You know why. Because if they hold these people accountable for the things they say, they have to explain why they support Donald Trump, to your point. And they're all cowards and unwilling. to do that because then it's revealed for the hypocrites that they are. Because I was a part of the Republican Party for 27 years, and I know that there were people that would have stood up in the party before Trump that would have said, no way, and this would not have been acceptable, back during the times when, you know, even when you had the John Birch Society, as far back as the 60s and 70s, and you had the conservatives say, it's our position to yell, stop athwart history when no one else will, and do the right thing.

[22:25:19]

That party is dead and gone. And Clay Higgins is a racist and has been his entire career, all the way back to when he admitted he voted for David Duke, who at the time was a known grand wizard of the KKK, and he admitted that he voted for him, you know, he's a homeboy and all, which is what he said, Google it's in an article. And he also, in 2007, assaulted an unarmed black man and lied about it. The man is a racist, and he put it on paper, and he's unapologetic for it.

So, let's call a spade a spade here with that and not let him get away with it, and not let the Republican speaker and Republican members of Congress brush it off as if he just, you know, made a comment that's no big deal. This is a big deal because people are threatened. Entire communities are threatened because of this stuff.

PHILLIP: This is an important moment because, you know, you mentioned David Duke and the KKK. I think there are a lot of people in this country who want to believe that we are past this nasty, vile racism against people who don't look like you. To bring up voodoo, to say that they're eating pets, we know that they're not eating -- they're not -- none of this is --

CARLSON: This is all a lie. People are allowed to come out of their basements now and say what's on their minds.

PHILLIP: I just wonder. I mean, if you really care about the issue of immigration and the issue of the laws that govern who comes into this country, how on earth does that help?

GESIOTTO: Yes. I don't know one Republican who supports what he said. I mean, I talked to a lot of them tonight who are absolutely horrified, not only by what he said, but also by the speaker's response. I think people expected there to be a stronger response from the speaker. I think it was quite comical when he said he went to the back of the room and prayed about it and came forward. Obviously, we see that the comicalness of it was true, because now he gives that statement to CNN, which was quite ignorant. And, again, ignorance at best, racism at worst. But no matter what you view this comment to be, I view it to be quite racist, it's wrong. And we can't sit back and say it's okay, because it's simply not.

SETMAYER: Are they on record? Did those people come out publicly and say that? Because, otherwise, it's useless.

GESIOTTO: Well, they're not elected officials. I'm sure if you called them, they'd love to come on and talk about it, but I wasn't talking specifically about elected officials. But I guarantee you there's a lot of elected officials that we can call that either.

SETMAYER: There weren't a lot of elected officials that came out against Robert Grinder (ph) or against Trump. So, why would they do it now?

GESIOTTO: Well, they should come out against this tonight, because it was wrong.

PHILLIP: Bryan, we've talked -- you've been here at this table and we've talked so much about where this has all come from. You can't ignore the fact that what started this was a lie, a lie that has not been retracted by J.D. Vance, a lie that was repeated again, actually, by Donald Trump this week, and that he was telling his supporters at a rally, get them out.

LANZA: Well, listen let's be clear what started this. What started this was an influx of, you know, temporary, you know, status --

PHILLIP: That's not what started this. What started this was a racist lie that Haitian immigrants were eating pets. That is what started this. None of that has to do with immigrants coming to a town working with their families, going to church, putting their kids in school, seeking medical care. None of this has to do with that. This has to do with lies about Haitian immigrants.

LANZA: Let's be clear. J.D. Vance, who's the senator of Ohio, got complaints from his constituents about this.

PHILLIP: And they were false. And he has a responsibility to retract it, and instead he's doubled down.

LANZA: He's received those complaints, and at the time he decided to elevate it to a national debate because we felt immigration is an important thing to discuss. We felt temporary protective status was an important thing to discuss. People may not like the method that he brought this up, but the method has brought a very important conversations that are hitting small towns in Ohio, that are hitting small towns in Pennsylvania and all over the country.

CARLSON: We were already talking about immigration.

PHILLIP: Right.

CARLSON: We didn't need to bring lies into it. Everyone's been talking about the influx of immigrants at the border. We did not need to bring up this particular lie.

The other thing that I was highly offended is, as a Christian woman, that they would actually invoke religion into this, like he went to the corner and prayed. That should be offensive to every Christian in this country and across the world that you're going to use religion to go back in the corner and suddenly decide that, oh, I guess I'm not racist now. That was highly offensive to me.

PHILLIP: You know what, if you are a religious person, as I am, many people are, prayer and also you seek penance.

CARLSON: Repentance.

PHILLIP: You ask for forgiveness from that too. I mean, Frank, you were talking about these focus groups getting people kind of being torn apart at the seams. Some of that is because of the fear factor that is ginned up, that is not based in fact, or it is not proportional. Because the idea that immigrants are, by and large, criminals, that's blatantly false. We know that is not true. That idea is the predominant way that this issue gets talked about on the right.

[22:30:03]

And it does a disservice to the fundamental problems that do exist in our immigration system.

LUNTZ: The number one priority of the American people and I could show it later in the show if you want, I can dig it up. The thing that we think is missing is truth and they expect the truth no matter how tough it is to hear. It's the highest priority that the American people have right now and they're not getting it.

And I don't think the debate helped that process at all. And I think that in the end, whatever brings us to the truth, as best as we can define it, is good for democracy and anything that gets in the way of that truth, that clarity, undermines democracy right now. TARA SETMAYER, FORMER REPUBLICAN COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, here's

the truth about how it actually started. And the woman who admitted that the cat she heard from three -- five people, different stories, actually was in the basement hiding and that she said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I never expected this to turn into what it turned into.

And so, it was a lie. J.D. Vance went on CNN and said, well, you know, if I have to make up the story to get the point across, like you just repeated, because that's what the messaging is out of the Republican Party.

So, you just repeat the lies and stay on message whether it's true or not, whether kids in schools are getting bomb threats because of this or not, whether a complete -- where a community is being torn apart in Springfield, Ohio, with neo-Nazis marching in the streets because of this lie that you are out here perpetuating. That is unacceptable, it's un-American.

My family came here as part of migration, your family came here as part of migration and these Haitians came here legally through migration. Ten to 12,000 of them through the temporary protected status that they were given because their country is in turmoil. And we can get into the colonialization and why Haiti's in turmoil but that's another day if you want to talk about this.

PHILLIP: All of this --

SETMAYER: So, that's the truth here. We need to be honest. These are legal people here trying to make it in this country like millions of other immigrants have had in America. And what Donald Trump and J.D. Vance and MAGA is doing is disgraceful and un-American.

MADISSON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: But I do believe that J.D. did initially receive those phone calls as Bryan referenced. He talked about that on CNN, as well. I think, however, once it came out that the video that was being surfaced was, again, from my hometown of Canton, not from Springfield. I think there could have been a correction there. But again, this is a legitimate issue in Springfield that I think, unfortunately, now we're distracted from talking about because of the eating of the cats and dogs.

SETMAYER: What's the legitimate issue? The immigration issue?

GESIOTTO: The immigration policy changes that led to the influx of this large of amount of people in an area that was a small town like Springfield. And so, they don't have the resources to handle what has gone on there. I mean, you're talking about over 4000 people who are on federal assistance, over 6000 people who are non-citizens receiving Medicaid.

And then of course, you're talking about a very small school system where you had just a year ago, 151 Haitian Creole-speaking students. Now, you have almost 600. That's very expensive for them to find translators and very difficult for them to even find any translators.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST AND CO-FOUNDER, LIFT OUT VOICES: That was a big enough story to just tell the truth about that.

SETMAYER: That's right.

GESIOTTO: But the problem --again, the problem is because you have so many people out there that are Republicans --

PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on.

GESIOTTO: -- that are now talking about the eating of the cats and dogs, we've been distracted and not able to talk about that.

SETMAYER: Why are we distracted? Because Donald Trump and J.D. Vance made a lie.

PHILLIP: Well, I think that that's what Madison just said. She's saying the cats and dogs issue --

GESIOTTO: I mean that's literally what I just said three times. There were people out there that continued to double down on it. Obviously, this is, I believe, something that they legitimately were told. And -- and I think J.D. should believe his constituents. But once we saw that, again, the video come out, people like me who are saying, hey, this is not the facts about where this video came from or who this person is in the video, I think we should then turn around and refocus.

BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: You know, I would add one part to this conversation. Let's -- let's be clear about the TPS program. It has been so riddled with fraud with respect to the Haitian ordinance, it's been stopped. So, we can't talk about this program being successful because if it was successful, it would still be continuing. They'd still be filling communities with these people.

But it was so filled with fraud that they stopped the program and they stopped it for a reason. And that's where we have to go to. Now, we know that the program has stopped, so why don't we analyze some of them that's taking place? This is clearly an issue we've dealt with all the time.

PHILLIP: I think, that's -- let me just, with all due respect, that is a complete distraction.

LANZA: It is a complete truth, too.

PHILLIP: It is a complete distraction from the fundamental --

LANZA: You may call it a distraction from what you want to hear. But from what voters want to hear is why is this program broken?

PHILLIP: You know, Bryan, that is a complete distraction from the fundamental issue here which is that most of these people, the vast majority of the people that we are talking about here in Springfield, these are people who came through a legal process. They are in the country paying taxes, working. They are sending their kids to school. They are doing the right thing. If you're concerned about illegal immigration, focus on illegal immigration. And also -- LANZA: I didn't say -- we're obviously concerned about illegal immigration. But I'm saying the program is stopped for a reason. Correct?

PHILLIP: But also, Bryan, the other fundamental issue here is it's time to just say, we were wrong. We take it back. These people don't deserve to be victimized. Why isn't that part of the conversation?

LANZA: Because we always want to shift to what we think the voters care about the most. We think that immigration is an issue that the voters in Ohio and these other fields are displaced by the status. And we're just not going to use the language that the media wants us to use. We're going to bring up these issues time over time because immigration is a key issue to our constituency and a key issue to the American people.

It may not be a comfortable conversation, however we want us to hold it, but we're holding it with way that clearly works with the American people because they hold more confidence in Donald Trump --on immigration.

[22:35:00]

SETMAYER: We're conflating to different issues.

LANZA: They hold more confidence on immigration than they hold on Kamala Harris.

SETMAYER: But why is it always the people who are of color, though? How come no one's upset about people who are coming from other countries where there's, you know, fraud in the same program? But it's always the people of color. It's the Haitians.

Or, you know, it's the people who come from the s-hole countries. There's a pattern here. Because he wouldn't be saying this about them. Last time I checked, it wasn't Haitians that were attacking the Capitol trying to overthrow our government. And he doesn't have a single problem with that.

GESIOTTO: I think those are Republicans across the country who are actually thoughtful on these policies and are very worried about them as a whole, not just about Haitians but they're worried about immigration policies and worried about illegal immigrants. Well, here I am. I'm one of them.

SETMAYER: Look, they're not. I wish they -- listen --seven years, I worked on Capitol Hill. I actually worked on this issue where there were real serious people that were trying to fix those problems. I am --

GESIOTTO: So, you don't believe there's a serious Republican in the country?

SETMAYER: No, they're not speaking up because if they were -- no, because they nominated Donald Trump as the top of the ticket there. So, that's not a serious move. If you want to be -- PHILLIP: Frank, I want to give you the last word on this.

LUNTZ: This is a problem. I understand that you're angry. I feel it.

SETMAYER: Yes, because -- yes, because people like me are the ones that are being persecuted.

LUNTZ: Yes, but you -- this behavior that we're doing here, this yelling over each other, is not what the voters want to see. They're tired of the yelling of shows. I'm sorry because I don't want to get myself kicked off here. They're tired of the yelling and they want solutions. The number one priority is results. Not looking back, looking ahead.

And they say the same thing about other conflicts. They don't want to know who did it. They want to know how you're going to fix it. Stop trying to blame people and start fixing it. Start getting it done now. And that's not what we've been talking about here.

PHILLIP: Well, yes. We could certainly be talking about a lot of really important policy issues. But instead, we're talking about false rumors of Haitians --

LUNTZ: Which is -- which is fair.

PHILLIP: -- doing voodoo, eating cats and dogs.

LUNTZ: That's fair.

PHILLIP: That's not our fault.

SETMAYER: We're being passionate about it either. People are uncomfortable. It's too bad.

PHILLIP: It is not.

SETMAYER: But it's too bad.

LUNTZ: Do you want to make a statement?

SETMAYER: Yes, I can make a statement.

LUNTZ: Or do you want to make a difference?

PHILLIP: Hang on.

SETMAYER: Actually, I'm doing both.

LUNTZ: I want to be in.

SETMAYER: I'm doing both.

PHILLIP: Hang on one second, Frank.

SETMAYER: Just because we're passionate about it, don't question what people are doing about it. PHILLIP: Frank and Tara.

LUNTZ: Actually, if somebody does focus groups and polling, I want you to be successful. I'm on your side. I'm actually trying to offer you an alternative and you can laugh at me, I'm used to it.

SETMAYER: I mean, it's fine. I don't appreciate being lectured about life experience.

PHILLIP: Frank and Tara, I'm going to let -- I'm going to go from this point because we just had a heated conversation because it's obviously -- it's a heated issue that involves real people on both sides of it. But I think the bottom line here is that our political leaders have a responsibility to do better on this story and on a lot of stories. Frank, thank you very much.

LUNTZ: Thank you.

PHILLIP: Coming up next, more from our breaking news. New York City Mayor Eric Adams has been indicted. We are just getting some new details about what happened with the Justice Department. Stay with us, we'll bring it to you right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:42:17]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D) NEW YORK: My fellow New Yorkers, it is now my belief that the federal government intends to charge me with crimes. If so, these charges will be entirely false based on lies. But they would not be surprising. I always knew that if I stood my ground for all of you, that I would be a target and a target I became.

For months. leaks and rumors have been aimed at me in an attempt to undermine my credibility and paint me as guilty. Just this past week, they searched the home of our new police commissioner looking for documents from 20 years ago, just one week after he joined my administration. Enough. I will fight these injustices with every ounce of my strength and my spirit. If I'm charged --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That was New York City Mayor Eric Adams in an extraordinary video tonight after he was indicted on federal charges. CNN's Evan Perez joins us. Evan, I know we're getting some new information about this sealed indictment and also what led up to it, what got us to this point.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Abby, one of the things that we know is just in the last few days that the mayor -- his legal team were informed that the Justice Department --that the prosecutors in the Southern District of New York planned to bring charges against him. Our Kara Scannell learned that at least two of his lawyers, Boyd

Johnson and Brendan McGuire, actually were able to get a meeting with the Office of the Deputy Attorney General. This is the place that you would go for one last -- one last time to appeal before the Justice Department bring these charges.

And we're told that they were informed that the Justice Department planned to go forward, that the Southern District of New York planned to move forward with this indictment. And so that's where we are now.

We expect, Abby, that the mayor and anyone else who may be charged as part of this -- remember that this is a broad investigation. It not -- it centers not only on -- on potential conduct by the mayor, but by others around him in his administration and in his campaign. We expect that they'll have several days before they have to turn themselves in.

And we can also, you know, remind people that all of this began back in November when there was an extraordinary scene. They not only searched a fundraiser for the mayor's campaign back in 2020 -- from 2021 campaign, but they also had the FBI actually pulled over the mayor with his security detail, asked them to step aside and they seized his electronics -- all his electronics devices that he had with him in his secure car there.

[22:45:12]

And so, that's where, you know, what was the first indication that this investigation had moved very, very close to the mayor and was looking at things as we talked about some of these donations that came from Turkey, allegedly, to his campaign and whether he was involved in any of that, whether he received any benefits because of those campaigns. All of that has been at the center of this investigation for several months, Abby.

PHILLIP: That's right, Evan, and we're getting more and more information as this goes on. We are learning from our Kara Scannell. He is not expected to appear in court on Thursday, and we will hopefully learn a lot more about what is in this sealed indictment tomorrow and in the coming days. Evan Perez, thank you very much for that news.

Coming up next, Vice President Harris is giving a new interview tonight suggesting that a recession is going to happen next year if Donald Trump wins. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat at this table. That's next.

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[22:50:16]

PHILLIP: Which candidate is best for your money? Donald Trump and Kamala Harris are giving dueling sales pitches today in battleground states. And here is the top line. Trump is branding Harris as the tax queen, while Harris says Trump's proposals just aren't serious. The vice president also sat down for a rare interview while in Pittsburgh, and she made a prediction. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL NOMINIEE (D): Top economists in our country from Nobel laureates to people at Moody's and Goldman Sachs have compared my plan with his and said my plan would grow the economy, his would shrink the economy. Some of them have actually assessed that his plan would increase inflation and invite a recession by the middle of next year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Harris also jumped on Trump's call to pay for his proposals by hiking tariffs. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: It would be a sales tax on the American people. The independent economists have already measured this.

STEPHANIE RUHLE, NBC NEWS SENIOR BUSINESS ANALYST AND ANCHOR: Tariffs aren't unique to President Trump. President Biden has tariffs in place. He's actually looking to potentially implement more. Where do you come out on? Is there a good tariff, a bad tariff?

HARRIS: Well, part of it is you don't just throw around the idea of just tariffs across the board and that's part of the problem with Donald Trump. He's just not very serious about how he thinks about some of these issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat is CNN economics and political commentator, Catherine Rampell, the very perfect person to be here for this conversation. That last point on tariffs, I mean, President Biden and Vice President Harris did continue some of Trump's tariffs.

CATHERINE RAMPBELL, CNN ECONOMICS AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Most of them. Almost all of them.

PHILLIP: Yes.

RAMPBELL: And the ones that they didn't continue, they swapped out for the most part, other kinds of trade restrictions, like a quota, for example. We did that on a few different countries. Yes. And the interesting thing about tariffs is that politicians realize that they are costly and counterproductive, but only when the other guy proposes them.

And if you look at things that Kamala Harris and Joe Biden said about Trump's tariffs back in 2020, they were very critical. They said these are going to raise costs for consumers, these are going to kill jobs, et cetera, which is true, right? And then kept, as I just said, almost all of them in place or put in other kinds of trade restrictions.

So, I think Kamala Harris is correct here when she says that Trump's current tariff proposal would be disastrous. I just wish that she would show some commitment to that analysis and say, okay, maybe those other things that he did that I'm also -- that I have in the past called out as costly continue to be costly. And if we care about inflation, if we care about prices then we would repeal those.

PHILLIP: I mean, she didn't say, for example, you know, I oppose tariffs at this level or I plan to roll back these tariffs. I mean, she didn't provide any of those details. I mean, do we need to know?

RAMPBELL: The campaign has said they like targeted tariffs. But again, they thought that Trump's tariffs were not very targeted back when he was president before and then kept them around.

PHILLIP: Just left them in place.

RAMPBELL: So, the problem is that once you put these, protectionist measures in place they're very hard to repeal because there is a concentrated group of people who will really fight to keep them around, you know, might be one particular company it might be, you know, union for example. So, there's a vested interest that wants to keep them around even if there are diffused costs that gets spread throughout the economy.

PHILLIP: I think one of the main things that she was trying to do today, that there was a big economic speech in Pittsburgh, as well, was basically say I have a lot of ideas for how I'm going to address the economy.

They put out this 82-page thing that you can hit someone over the head with. It's so large -- that has all the details for how all these individual plans work. And the point is to make a contrast. That when Trump puts an idea out there, he doesn't say how it's going to be dealt with. It seems to me that that's what she was trying to do.

SETMAYER: Yes, because she's been criticized for not being specific with policy proposals. And the same criticism, you know, doesn't really happen on the Trump side because he just says a bunch of word salad and then just says in two weeks we'll do this or have the concept of a plan and that seems to be just fine.

At least now, people are getting to know her because she's a bit of a blank slate and she needed to put out some -- some policy explanation for what she plans to do because the economy is the number one issue for most people. And this way, they do have the contrast. You know, the tariff issue is one that most people, if you ask average voters what a tariff is, they don't know.

[22:55:04]

And so, by her doing the messaging that it's a tax, which is what it is, and explaining that you don't use tariffs to punish companies, which is what Donald Trump wants to do, I don't know what his strategy is going after John Deere, which is a great American company, threatening them if they go through last time I checked, we're a free market society and I thought we were capitalists, you don't punish companies for making decisions in the marketplace by threatening them with tariffs is what Trump wanted to do. RAMPBELL: Well, the very irony here is that the reason why John Deere

would be moving this production to Mexico is because of the trade deal that Trump himself signed, the USMCA.

SETMAYER: That's right.

RAMPBELL: Not to mention the fact that if he put in place tariffs of 200 percent on John Deere products, that's going to hurt the farmers.

SETMAYER: That's right, the farmers--

RAMPBELL: - who he was sucking up to at that event.

PHILLIP: Let me let you get in on this conversation.

LANZA: Listen, I'm glad somebody wrote her plan but when she does interviews, she doesn't go into details or specifics. She really talks in broad generality. She talks about her lawn. She talks about everything about the specifics that's going to help restore American wealth, which her and Biden have robbed America of wealth through the last three and a half years with inflation.

So, I mean her challenge is that she has to convince America that her plan forward is better than the plan that's existed, that she's been a part of for the last four years. And, you know, we can have all these economists come forward, they all came forward in 2016 and said Donald Trump would be -- would wreck the economy, it would cause a recession and none of those things happened.

RAMPBELL: Well, that's partly because he had people around him who restrained him from doing some of the really stupid things he wanted to do.

LANZA: So, the economists were wrong.

RAMPBELL: But when it comes to the campaigner view, he was not able to execute this plan of firing the Fed chair.

PHILLIP: Or to pull him completely out of NAFTA.

RAMPBELL: Yes.

LANZA: Guys, he negotiated NAFTA.

PHILLIP: I know, but Catherine's point is that --

RAMPBELL: And now he's mad about it.

LANZA: Well, they have an opportunity to revisit it in two years. That's the law.

PHILLIP: Catherine's point is that he campaigned on getting rid of NAFTA altogether. He renegotiated it because his aides convinced him that that was not --

LANZA: And he got a better deal out of it. CARLSON: And I think the real reason that they had to put out this 82-

page plan is because she's down 15 points on the economy in the latest CNN poll, right?

PHILLIP: Absolutely.

CARLSON: I mean, and the other criticism is that she needs to be more detailed in her policies. I watched this entire interview. I did not think she was that detailed. I mean, she's very much focused on the middle class and it's a very populist message.

But I do think that she needs to be a little bit more detailed on some of these issues. Nobody's going to sit down and read the 82-point plan or the 82-page plan. But when she has the opportunity to do these interviews, she really has to capitalize on them. And I've been saying more of them in the local markets in the battleground states.

PHILLIP: Yes.

GESIOTTO: Yes, I think the reality is the undecided voter may not be watching MSNBC. So, if they didn't get an opportunity to see the interview, they're certainly not going to read this long thing. So, they might see clips of this on social media or they might see clips of it presented on a show like this.

And when you look at what she said in the interview, I don't think she was as detailed as people were calling for. She really struggled to answer the question of how she's going to pay for some of these things. She says raise the taxes, but guess what? She may not have a Democrat-controlled Senate. And she struggled on the tariffs questions, as well.

Of course, they not only kept a lot of the tariffs from the Trump administration, they actually expanded some of the ones with China. And I don't think she was really able to articulate when she talks about, yes, tariffs can be good but not always.

It's a very powerful tool, I think, in an arsenal for a president when you come to dealing with countries like China, who have very unfair advantages. They don't pay for capital. A lot of their companies are owned by the government. They don't pay a living wage. And then on top of that, they don't have environmental control.

So, they're able to produce things at a much lower price than what we are. So, the tariffs can't be useful there. However, they can't always -- they're not always useful. When you talk about pharmaceuticals or things that people need that we simply don't always produce here.

PHILLIP: I do also think, I mean, it's not just about tariffs, right? I mean, that just happens to be the thing that Donald Trump talks about the most. Harris talked about a lot of other things. I think the trouble is--

RAMPBELL: Yes, I think she struggled in a lot of other things.

PHILLIP: Yes. The trouble is -- RAMPBELL: She didn't give a lot of detail but she hit on a lot of different topics.

PHILLIP: But what breaks through to the American people? I mean, this is the challenge when anybody runs against Donald Trump. He says slap 200 percent tariffs on them and that's kind of what people hear. When you try to get to the heart of what the Harris economics plan is, did you get the sense of what that was?

RAMPBELL: Parts of it.

PHILLIP: The speech, the interview, both of it?

RAMPBELL: So, to be clear, what's in the 82-page tome is not really that different from what the campaign has put out in the past few weeks. It, you know, has more charts and footnotes and things like that, but there isn't a lot that's new in there.

I will say, yes. I would love to hear her put out more details, more meat on the bone of a lot of these policy proposals, but we also shouldn't have a crazy double standard where, like, she has to have all of the footnotes and economic regressions and Trump can just morph out whatever tax cut. Yes.

PHILLIP: I don't think -- I don't think the question is about -- the question is not about footnotes. The question is about are the American people actually hearing what the plan is. I mean, we're basically out of time.

[23:00:00]

RAMPBELL: Yes.

PHILLIP: But those are different questions.

SETMAYER: We've got 40 days to go.

PHILLIP: Yes.

SETMAYER: So, you need to talk in broad strokes so they understand the contrast. And that's what she's doing.

GESIOTTO: But they're not understanding it. She's not convincing them.

CARLSON: We did find out she actually worked at McDonald's.

PHILLIP: Okay.

CARLSON: We did find out that out in an interview and I was very pleased I can sleep tonight now.

PHILLIP: This is a big -- of the former president. So, I guess that's been solved now. Everyone, thank you very much for watching. And thank you for watching "NewsNight State of the Race." We've got much more on tonight's breaking news. New York City Mayor Eric Adams has been indicted. "Laura Coates Live" will dive into it right now.